Alternate turn undead (PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate turn undead (PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zog_Jakome
12-07-07, 11:05 PM Lately I have been wondering how to enhance the alternate turn undead in complete divine. The way it works in the complete divine gives no insight as to how feats that affect turn undead affect the variant. I have thought of a way to have the same turn undead rules but have it deal damage.

The only problem I see with this is there are a lot of rolls involved but I don't think it could be avoided. tell me what you think...

Turn undead- Level check damage

Step one- roll to see if you affect the HD of the undead
There is a different turning check
The formula is as follows

1d20 + cleric level + charisma mod + turning check mods

The DC is as follows

10 + undead HD + turn resistance

step 2- If the cleric exceeds the DC, the undead are affected to the full extent.

Damage = 1d6 per cleric level

If the cleric fails by less than 5 the damage is halved
If the cleric fails by 5 or more, but less than 10 the damage is quartered
If the cleric fails by 10 or more the damage is negated

Here’s the catch, the cleric can only affect a number of HD equal to cleric level + charisma modifier + 7

Effects that mimic a greater turning grant double damage only if the cleric passed.
Empower turning multiplies the number of HD you can affect by 1.5
Heighten turning acts just as the feat suggest, adds to turning check, subtracts from number of HD affected.

The radius of the effect is a 60 foot burst
Zog_Jakome
12-09-07, 04:40 PM lets try this again.
Prince_of_Parkness
12-09-07, 04:56 PM If you need to write it down in steps, its probably a bad idea. How about rolling to see if undead are effected (clr lv+char mod+mod vs. undead hd+turn res+mod) and if succesful undead take 1d6 per cleric level-1d6 per point of turn resistance. If the cleric fails he fails, no half and quarter damage. Also id lover the range to 30ft burst
Tequila_Sunrise
12-09-07, 09:05 PM Lately I have been wondering how to enhance the alternate turn undead in complete divine. The way it works in the complete divine gives no insight as to how feats that affect turn undead affect the variant.

What turn-related feats exactly require insight? I rule that improved turning does exactly what it says it does (+1 turning level): so 1d6 extra damage and the save is 1 higher. Is there some other more complicated feat that you're thinking about?
Zog_Jakome
12-10-07, 04:49 AM If you need to write it down in steps, its probably a bad idea. How about rolling to see if undead are effected (clr lv+char mod+mod vs. undead hd+turn res+mod) and if succesful undead take 1d6 per cleric level-1d6 per point of turn resistance. If the cleric fails he fails, no half and quarter damage. Also id lover the range to 30ft burst

The normal turning rules don't come out and say it but they are also done in steps... Step-1 roll to see what undead you can affect, step 2 roll to see how many HD you affect.

I wanted to make it as much like normal turning as possible except it does damage.

with your way it seems that a 1st level cleric can affect a 20 HD undead creature normally impossible, and by my variant also impossible. unless of course you meant 1d20 + cleric lvl + mods vs 10 + undead HD + TR + mods, just like mine. So how would a greater turning work? what if you had the feat empower turning or heighten turning certainly these normally useful feats don't do nothing now?

I also wanted to mix a little of the Complete Divine variant in there hence the half and quarter damage part.

What turn-related feats exactly require insight? I rule that improved turning does exactly what it says it does (+1 turning level): so 1d6 extra damage and the save is 1 higher. Is there some other more complicated feat that you're thinking about?

Look at my first post again, you'll see me list some feats that will cause problems with normal Complete Divine Variant that I have solved with my Variant. namely

disciple of the sun
greater turning(sun domain ability)
heighten turning
Empower turning

I left out the obvious ones like the one you named. and quicken turning, extra turning.
vorpo
12-10-07, 01:03 PM I agree w/ tequila and think you are making it unnecessarily more complicated than it is.
Zog_Jakome
12-10-07, 06:06 PM I agree w/ tequila and think you are making it unnecessarily more complicated than it is.

So genius why don't you tell me exactly what these feats do then. here are some summaries of the feats

disciple of the sun-spend two turn undead attempts to destroy undead normally turned.

Greater turning- sun domain ability, Once per day destroy undead normally turned.

empower turning- multiply the number of HD affected by 1.5

Heighten turning- Add any number no higher than your cleric level to your turning check, the same number is subtracted from number of HD affected.

so you see it is not me that make it more complicated it was delivered to me complicated. Let's forget about how complicated it may be and focus on how underpowered or overpowered it may be, compare it to normal turning and alternate turning in complete Divine.
vorpo
12-10-07, 07:19 PM There are no rules for destroying undead in regard with the alternative as you pointed out. But it is still too complicated to make up a whole new system just becuz of a few odd feats/features that don't work with the alternative. Remember, the whole reason that this alternative exists is to simplify the original turning by dealing damage directly.

This is my rule of dealing with the mentioned feats/ability:

disciple of the sun-spend two turn undead attempts to double the damage dice. So instead of rolling 5d6 at cleric lvl 5, you deal 10d6 by spending 2 turn attempts.

Greater turning- sun domain ability, Once per day double the damage dice as above (without expending turn attempts).

empower turning- multiply the damage result by 1.5

Heighten turning- this is 3.0 material and becomes obsolete if you are using the alternate turn undead rules from CDiv.

So, isn't this much simpler and cleaner than your rules? Any other odd balls out there you can't figure out how to convert?
vorpo
12-10-07, 07:31 PM As for the 3.0 FR feat Heighten Turning, I just thought of the alternate rule for it. Add the number to undead's will save DC and subtract twice that number to damage. So, as a 5th lvl cleric, instead of dealing 5d6, he may instead do only 5d6 - 4dmg and add 2 to save DC. Of course, the number can be more finely tuned.
Zog_Jakome
12-10-07, 08:03 PM Thank you vorpo first of all

That is exactly the way I do it and have been doing it this way for the longest time. The reason behind the need for a change is because I have a cleric PC with a phylactery of undead turning, and the Radiant servant of Pelor prestige class, he also has the feats quicken turn, and empower turn. of course he has a charisma of 20 and five or more ranks in knowledge religion

Radiant servant of pelor gives him the ability to use multiple uses of greater turning per day.

so as a free action the 13th level cleric can do 42d6 points of damage. undead can do a will save DC 34 for half. that just screams broken. that's more than a distintegrate cast by a 20th level wizard, and to top it all off it affects all undead in a 30' radius.

Wondering how I came up with that number?
13th level becomes 17th level with the item, 17d6 X 2 = 34d6 add another 8d6 due to empowering = 42d6 (will save DC 10+17(clr)+5(cha)+2(synergy)= 34)

to make it more disgusting tack on another 60 points of damage from a maximized searing light. if all of his d6's roll is a 3 the damage is 186. the all powerful nightcrawler can be destroyed in 2-3 turns by the cleric ALONE assuming he passes some saves. (note that if avoiding death he can take on 3 of them) tack that with a quickened fireball and a maximized fireball from the wizard. and about 20 points of damage from the fighter who seems left out. the rogue just stands there. 13th level parties should not win vs 3 nightcrawlers(CR 18)

he can use a greater turning 8 times per day.

</rant>

oh and FYI heighten turning is in the Libris Mortes
vorpo
12-10-07, 08:23 PM oh and FYI heighten turning is in the Libris Mortes

Oh? I only remembered it from Defender of Faith (FR 3.0). Thx

Maybe you can instead modify the rule to be total damage done to all undeads instead of individual undeads. So he does 186 dmg to 10 undeads (for 18.6 each) instead of 1860 total. That oughta cut him down a bit :P Also, you can deny the Cha bonus entirely from the DC etc since that feat was made for a different turn undead rule :P
Zog_Jakome
12-10-07, 08:44 PM actually the 186 damage included the maximized searing light. the point is not to 10 undead creatures, but to just one.

If a nightcrawler (25 HD; CR 18; will save +23) encountered this 13th level cleric by hisself under normal rules there is no chance of turning,

under complete divine variant turning the cleric by hisself can destroy the nightshade in 2-3 turns assuming he can pass some saves. when is a cleric ever alone though? congrats the 2 person, cleric, wizard duo just got 11,700 xp without hardly trying. now I don't see any fairness to deviating from normal XP charts so no 1/2 xp for easy encounters.

and 18 points of damage to 10 3-HD zombies seems a little too weak for a 13th level cleric.

do you see the dillemma I am in?

My co-DM has already given up thinking about it and has done away with the idea of damaging undead with turning. But I hate being the fighter that doesn't get to do anything because the undead simply run away or cower or are completely destroyed. I like beating up hordes of zombies while the cleric helps in damaging them.
vorpo
12-10-07, 09:09 PM How about reducing damage to 1d4? Use the 1d6 for undeads that are especially susceptible to positive energy like vampires. Use 1d3 for undeads with turn resistance?
Zog_Jakome
12-11-07, 02:15 AM what do you think about 1d8 per two levels
and the dc is 10 + 1/2 cleric level + charisma + others?
vorpo
12-11-07, 09:48 AM What would the result turn out using your new way in the situation of your 13th lvl cleric?

Another way could be just the cleric himself takes 1/4 or even 1/2 of the damage he deals to undead as well. The argument would be his body simply can't channel that much positive energy and doing so causes harm. (maybe nonlethal damage)
Zog_Jakome
12-11-07, 02:37 PM are you trying to kill the cleric just by using his own ability?

ok to answer your question here are 4 undead creatures that confront the 13th level cleric at the same time.

4 HD wight (26 HP) CR 3 DC 14
6 HD zombie(advanced) (39 HP) CR 2 DC 16
13 HD Vampire (96 HP) CR 15 DC 27
21 HD nightwalker (178 HP) CR 16 DC 31

The cleric performs a greater turning
first the cleric rolls to affect them he rolled an 18 which makes his turning check result a 42 which passes on all of them.

then he rolls 17d6 multiplies by 2

the total die result is 60 x 2 = 120

now the cleric can affect up to 43 HD the order of the undead affected is the closest first just like normal turning. the order is wight, zombie, vampire, nightwalker

the wight zombie and vampire are instantly destroyed (as normal for a greater turning) (4 + 6 + 13 = 23) there is not enough left to affect the nightcrawler whom after taking some damage from other PCs and a searing light presumes to perform another greater turn.

this time he rolls an 8 which makes his turning check a 30 fails so the nightwalker takes only half damage.

the damage is 58 /2 the nightwalker takes 29 points of damage had the cleric rolled 1 more point the damage would have been 116 and probably would have finished it with a searing light.

... end simulation ...
I agree its not perfect and I could change some things around. here are some suggestions I may have to make it better

-make a chart just like regular turning
-have a secondary effect along with less damage(such as your 1d4 per level or the 1d8 / 2 levels) like dazed for 1 round.
-intelligent undead could get a will save to halve the damage again DC 10 + 1/2 cleric level + cha mod)

what do you think?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zog_Jakome 12-07-07, 11:05 PM	Lately I have been wondering how to enhance the alternate turn undead in complete divine. The way it works in the complete divine gives no insight as to how feats that affect turn undead affect the variant. I have thought of a way to have the same turn undead rules but have it deal damage. The only problem I see with this is there are a lot of rolls involved but I don't think it could be avoided. tell me what you think... Turn undead- Level check damage Step one- roll to see if you affect the HD of the undead There is a different turning check The formula is as follows 1d20 + cleric level + charisma mod + turning check mods The DC is as follows 10 + undead HD + turn resistance step 2- If the cleric exceeds the DC, the undead are affected to the full extent. Damage = 1d6 per cleric level If the cleric fails by less than 5 the damage is halved If the cleric fails by 5 or more, but less than 10 the damage is quartered If the cleric fails by 10 or more the damage is negated Here’s the catch, the cleric can only affect a number of HD equal to cleric level + charisma modifier + 7 Effects that mimic a greater turning grant double damage only if the cleric passed. Empower turning multiplies the number of HD you can affect by 1.5 Heighten turning acts just as the feat suggest, adds to turning check, subtracts from number of HD affected. The radius of the effect is a 60 foot burst
Zog_Jakome 12-09-07, 04:40 PM	lets try this again.
Prince_of_Parkness 12-09-07, 04:56 PM	If you need to write it down in steps, its probably a bad idea. How about rolling to see if undead are effected (clr lv+char mod+mod vs. undead hd+turn res+mod) and if succesful undead take 1d6 per cleric level-1d6 per point of turn resistance. If the cleric fails he fails, no half and quarter damage. Also id lover the range to 30ft burst
Tequila_Sunrise 12-09-07, 09:05 PM	Lately I have been wondering how to enhance the alternate turn undead in complete divine. The way it works in the complete divine gives no insight as to how feats that affect turn undead affect the variant. What turn-related feats exactly require insight? I rule that improved turning does exactly what it says it does (+1 turning level): so 1d6 extra damage and the save is 1 higher. Is there some other more complicated feat that you're thinking about?
Zog_Jakome 12-10-07, 04:49 AM	If you need to write it down in steps, its probably a bad idea. How about rolling to see if undead are effected (clr lv+char mod+mod vs. undead hd+turn res+mod) and if succesful undead take 1d6 per cleric level-1d6 per point of turn resistance. If the cleric fails he fails, no half and quarter damage. Also id lover the range to 30ft burst The normal turning rules don't come out and say it but they are also done in steps... Step-1 roll to see what undead you can affect, step 2 roll to see how many HD you affect. I wanted to make it as much like normal turning as possible except it does damage. with your way it seems that a 1st level cleric can affect a 20 HD undead creature normally impossible, and by my variant also impossible. unless of course you meant 1d20 + cleric lvl + mods vs 10 + undead HD + TR + mods, just like mine. So how would a greater turning work? what if you had the feat empower turning or heighten turning certainly these normally useful feats don't do nothing now? I also wanted to mix a little of the Complete Divine variant in there hence the half and quarter damage part. What turn-related feats exactly require insight? I rule that improved turning does exactly what it says it does (+1 turning level): so 1d6 extra damage and the save is 1 higher. Is there some other more complicated feat that you're thinking about? Look at my first post again, you'll see me list some feats that will cause problems with normal Complete Divine Variant that I have solved with my Variant. namely disciple of the sun greater turning(sun domain ability) heighten turning Empower turning I left out the obvious ones like the one you named. and quicken turning, extra turning.
vorpo 12-10-07, 01:03 PM	I agree w/ tequila and think you are making it unnecessarily more complicated than it is.
Zog_Jakome 12-10-07, 06:06 PM	I agree w/ tequila and think you are making it unnecessarily more complicated than it is. So genius why don't you tell me exactly what these feats do then. here are some summaries of the feats disciple of the sun-spend two turn undead attempts to destroy undead normally turned. Greater turning- sun domain ability, Once per day destroy undead normally turned. empower turning- multiply the number of HD affected by 1.5 Heighten turning- Add any number no higher than your cleric level to your turning check, the same number is subtracted from number of HD affected. so you see it is not me that make it more complicated it was delivered to me complicated. Let's forget about how complicated it may be and focus on how underpowered or overpowered it may be, compare it to normal turning and alternate turning in complete Divine.
vorpo 12-10-07, 07:19 PM	There are no rules for destroying undead in regard with the alternative as you pointed out. But it is still too complicated to make up a whole new system just becuz of a few odd feats/features that don't work with the alternative. Remember, the whole reason that this alternative exists is to simplify the original turning by dealing damage directly. This is my rule of dealing with the mentioned feats/ability: disciple of the sun-spend two turn undead attempts to double the damage dice. So instead of rolling 5d6 at cleric lvl 5, you deal 10d6 by spending 2 turn attempts. Greater turning- sun domain ability, Once per day double the damage dice as above (without expending turn attempts). empower turning- multiply the damage result by 1.5 Heighten turning- this is 3.0 material and becomes obsolete if you are using the alternate turn undead rules from CDiv. So, isn't this much simpler and cleaner than your rules? Any other odd balls out there you can't figure out how to convert?
vorpo 12-10-07, 07:31 PM	As for the 3.0 FR feat Heighten Turning, I just thought of the alternate rule for it. Add the number to undead's will save DC and subtract twice that number to damage. So, as a 5th lvl cleric, instead of dealing 5d6, he may instead do only 5d6 - 4dmg and add 2 to save DC. Of course, the number can be more finely tuned.
Zog_Jakome 12-10-07, 08:03 PM	Thank you vorpo first of all That is exactly the way I do it and have been doing it this way for the longest time. The reason behind the need for a change is because I have a cleric PC with a phylactery of undead turning, and the Radiant servant of Pelor prestige class, he also has the feats quicken turn, and empower turn. of course he has a charisma of 20 and five or more ranks in knowledge religion Radiant servant of pelor gives him the ability to use multiple uses of greater turning per day. so as a free action the 13th level cleric can do 42d6 points of damage. undead can do a will save DC 34 for half. that just screams broken. that's more than a distintegrate cast by a 20th level wizard, and to top it all off it affects all undead in a 30' radius. Wondering how I came up with that number? 13th level becomes 17th level with the item, 17d6 X 2 = 34d6 add another 8d6 due to empowering = 42d6 (will save DC 10+17(clr)+5(cha)+2(synergy)= 34) to make it more disgusting tack on another 60 points of damage from a maximized searing light. if all of his d6's roll is a 3 the damage is 186. the all powerful nightcrawler can be destroyed in 2-3 turns by the cleric ALONE assuming he passes some saves. (note that if avoiding death he can take on 3 of them) tack that with a quickened fireball and a maximized fireball from the wizard. and about 20 points of damage from the fighter who seems left out. the rogue just stands there. 13th level parties should not win vs 3 nightcrawlers(CR 18) he can use a greater turning 8 times per day. </rant> oh and FYI heighten turning is in the Libris Mortes
vorpo 12-10-07, 08:23 PM	oh and FYI heighten turning is in the Libris Mortes Oh? I only remembered it from Defender of Faith (FR 3.0). Thx Maybe you can instead modify the rule to be total damage done to all undeads instead of individual undeads. So he does 186 dmg to 10 undeads (for 18.6 each) instead of 1860 total. That oughta cut him down a bit :P Also, you can deny the Cha bonus entirely from the DC etc since that feat was made for a different turn undead rule :P
Zog_Jakome 12-10-07, 08:44 PM	actually the 186 damage included the maximized searing light. the point is not to 10 undead creatures, but to just one. If a nightcrawler (25 HD; CR 18; will save +23) encountered this 13th level cleric by hisself under normal rules there is no chance of turning, under complete divine variant turning the cleric by hisself can destroy the nightshade in 2-3 turns assuming he can pass some saves. when is a cleric ever alone though? congrats the 2 person, cleric, wizard duo just got 11,700 xp without hardly trying. now I don't see any fairness to deviating from normal XP charts so no 1/2 xp for easy encounters. and 18 points of damage to 10 3-HD zombies seems a little too weak for a 13th level cleric. do you see the dillemma I am in? My co-DM has already given up thinking about it and has done away with the idea of damaging undead with turning. But I hate being the fighter that doesn't get to do anything because the undead simply run away or cower or are completely destroyed. I like beating up hordes of zombies while the cleric helps in damaging them.
vorpo 12-10-07, 09:09 PM	How about reducing damage to 1d4? Use the 1d6 for undeads that are especially susceptible to positive energy like vampires. Use 1d3 for undeads with turn resistance?
Zog_Jakome 12-11-07, 02:15 AM	what do you think about 1d8 per two levels and the dc is 10 + 1/2 cleric level + charisma + others?
vorpo 12-11-07, 09:48 AM	What would the result turn out using your new way in the situation of your 13th lvl cleric? Another way could be just the cleric himself takes 1/4 or even 1/2 of the damage he deals to undead as well. The argument would be his body simply can't channel that much positive energy and doing so causes harm. (maybe nonlethal damage)
Zog_Jakome 12-11-07, 02:37 PM	are you trying to kill the cleric just by using his own ability? ok to answer your question here are 4 undead creatures that confront the 13th level cleric at the same time. 4 HD wight (26 HP) CR 3 DC 14 6 HD zombie(advanced) (39 HP) CR 2 DC 16 13 HD Vampire (96 HP) CR 15 DC 27 21 HD nightwalker (178 HP) CR 16 DC 31 The cleric performs a greater turning first the cleric rolls to affect them he rolled an 18 which makes his turning check result a 42 which passes on all of them. then he rolls 17d6 multiplies by 2 the total die result is 60 x 2 = 120 now the cleric can affect up to 43 HD the order of the undead affected is the closest first just like normal turning. the order is wight, zombie, vampire, nightwalker the wight zombie and vampire are instantly destroyed (as normal for a greater turning) (4 + 6 + 13 = 23) there is not enough left to affect the nightcrawler whom after taking some damage from other PCs and a searing light presumes to perform another greater turn. this time he rolls an 8 which makes his turning check a 30 fails so the nightwalker takes only half damage. the damage is 58 /2 the nightwalker takes 29 points of damage had the cleric rolled 1 more point the damage would have been 116 and probably would have finished it with a searing light. ... end simulation ... I agree its not perfect and I could change some things around. here are some suggestions I may have to make it better -make a chart just like regular turning -have a secondary effect along with less damage(such as your 1d4 per level or the 1d8 / 2 levels) like dazed for 1 round. -intelligent undead could get a will save to halve the damage again DC 10 + 1/2 cleric level + cha mod) what do you think?