Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kaligrad 10-06-06, 04:05 PM	One of the big problems with the fighter class is its lack of exclusivity. Sure, they have more feats than any other class, but most builds don't even need all 11! The bonus damage from Weapon Specialization and the two Greaters is nice, but most spells can top that easily, even if they don't last as long. The PHB2 also adds to the fighter's exclusive feats, but since it's still based on the power of feats rather than class abilities, it simply doesn't go far enough. So, using the Tome of Battle as precident, I hereby present an alternative fighter core class; one that adds power by granting class abilities but limits their strength based on encounters/day. Fighter (Alternative) Base Fort Ref Will Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Weapon Style 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Bonus Feat 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Weapon Style 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Weapon Style 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Weapon Style, Bonus Feat 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Weapon Style Skills: The fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str). Skill points at 1st level: 2+Int modifier x 4 (etc.) Class Features All of the following are class features of the ronin. Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all armor (light, medium, heavy) and all shields (including tower shields). Bonus Feats: The alternate fighter draws its feats from the same set available normally. Access to exclusive feats does not change. Weapon Style: As they advance in level, fighters find themselves able to do certain extraordinary things that set them apart from the regular warriors. At first level, as well as every fifth level (5, 10, 15, 20), fighters may pick from the list of available styles. Despite being named after weapons, the styles may be used with any weapon the fighter is proficent in, unless otherwise stated. Also, any style ability may be chosen at any level if the fighter qualifies: he is not limited to one style tree. All abilities are extraordinary unless noted otherwise. 1st level: Sword Disarming Strike Shield Shield Rush Axe Bleeding Wound Hammer Staggering Blow Dagger Evasion Double Double Weapon Familiarity 5th level: Sword Disarming Response Shield Turtle Stance Axe Open Wound Hammer Concussive Strike Dagger Poison Use Double Stab Extention 10th level: Sword Mobile Supremecy Shield Improved Uncanny Dodge Axe Crippling Wound Hammer Ground Pound Dagger 5d6 Sneak Attack Double Hurricane Wind 15th level: Sword Wearing them Down Shield Unstoppable Axe Deadly Wound Hammer Forceful Swing Dagger Death Attack Double Double Whirlwind Attack 20th level: Sword Shield Axe Fatal Wound Hammer Punishing Blow Dagger Cheap Shot Double Tornado Strike Sword Styles: 1 Disarming Strike: The fighter gets Improved Disarm as the feat. Additionally, when the fighter is wielding a light or one handed weapon with nothing in his off hand, if he disarms an opponent in melee combat, he immediately gets a melee attack against that opponent as if he hadn’t used his attack for the disarm attempt. 5 Disarming Response: The fighter may make a disarm attack against any opponent who moves through his threatened area as an immediate action. This is irregardless as to whether or not that opponent would have provoked an attack of opportunity, but it does count as one of the fighter's attacks of opportunity that round. If the opponent intends to attack anyone, or was charging, the fighter may resolve his disarm attempt before the attack, though the opponent may then decide not to attack (the opponent does not get to choose another action, however). 10 Mobile Supremacy: When the fighter is wielding a light or one handed weapon with nothing in his off hand, he has a pool equal to his character level he may add to his attack bonus or armor class as a free action that lasts one round. No more than one quarter of this pool may be used in any one round; however, the pool is restored after every encounter. 15 Wearing them Down: When the fighter is wielding a light or one handed weapon with nothing in his off hand, every successful attack by him will lower his opponent's AC by 2 until the end of his next round. Shield Styles: 1 Shield Rush: A fighter considers shields one size catagory larger for the purposes of shield bashing. If the shield is spiked, he considers it two catagories larger. 5 Turtle Stance: A fighter may wield two shields, and both sets of bonuses stack. Also, he gains two weapon fighting, but only while wielding two shields in this manner. 10 Improved Uncanny Dodge: As the ability of the barbarian and rogue. 15 Unstoppable: For five rounds in an encounter, the Fighter is immune to disease, poison, ability drain, ability damage, death effects, blindness, deafness, dazzlement, dazing, sleep effects, nausea, fear effects, paralysis, stunning, and has the effects of the Diehard feat on him. Activating this power is a move action, and the rounds must be consecutive. Axe Styles: 1 Bleeding Wound: The fighter with this ability may deal one additional point of bleeding damage per fighter level. This ability can only be used once per encounter for every two class levels the fighter has, and the fighter must declare his attempt before rolling to attack. Note that creatures that don't bleed (undead, constructs, etc.) are immune to the effects of this ability. 5 Open Wound: The fighter with this ability can deal an additional 1d4 temporary Con damage with a successful attack. This ability can only be used once per encounter for every four class levels the fighter has, and the fighter must declare his attempt before rolling to attack. 10 Crippling Wound: The fighter with this ability can deal an additional 1d6 Con and Dex damage with a successful attack. This ability can only be used once per encounter for every six class levels the fighter has, and the fighter must declare his attempt before rolling to attack. 15 Deadly Wound: The fighter with this ability can deal an additional 2d6 Con, Dex, and Str damage with a successful attack. This ability can only be used once per encounter for every eight class levels the fighter has, and the ronin must declare his attempt before rolling to attack. 20 Fatal Wound: The fighter chooses a weapon, in the same manner as Weapon Focus. From then on, the weapon is considered vorpal in the fighter's hands. (Assume that a bludgeoning weapon staves in the head, and that a piercing weapon stabs the heart) Hammer Styles: 1 Staggering Blow: If the fighter uses Power Attack to trade in any amount of BAB, he may make a free bull rush attempt on the target after a successful hit, without any attack of opportunity. Additionally, however far the bull rush pushes the target, the fighter does not move from his current spot. 5 Concussive Strike: The fighter with this ability may deal an additional 1d6 Int damage upon a successful attack. This ability can only be used once per encounter for each four class levels the fighter has, and the fighter must declare his use of this ability before rolling to attack. 10 Ground Pound (Su): By striking the ground, the fighter causes a shockwave to extend around him. With a standard action, the fighter deals 1d6 damage per class level to everything within 40ft of him (max 20d6) that is in contact with the ground. This ability can only be used once per encounter. 15 Forceful Swing (Su): With this ability, the fighter can swing his weapon so hard that the very air vibrates. Once per encounter, the fighter may use a standard action to swing his weapon, causing a 60ft cone of sonic damage. The damage is 1d6 per character level (max 25d6). 20 Punishing Blow: Once per encounter, after rolling a successful attack but before rolling damage, the fighter may use this ability to add 10d6 untyped damage to the attack. Damage Resistance does not apply to this damage. Dagger Styles: 1 Evasion: As the rogue or monk ability. 5 Poison Use: The fighter with this ability has no chance to poison himself when applying poison to his weapon. 10 Sneak Attack: The fighter automatically gains 5d6 sneak attack, as though he were a level 10 rogue. This sneak attack does not improve, though it does stack with any rogue levels. 15 Death Attack: as the assassin ability of the same name. The DC is 10+1/2 fighter level+fighter's Int modifier. 20 Cheap Shot: If the fighter attacks a flatfooted or flanked target (or else any time the opponent is denied her Dex modifier), he may declare the use of this ability before attacking. If the attack hits, his opponent is nausiated for five rounds, no save. Double Weapon Styles: 1 Double Weapon Familiarity: The fighter who takes this ability automatically gains Exotic Weapon Proficency with all exotic double weapons. 5 Stab Extention: If the fighter is wielding a double weapon, he may forgo his secondary attack(s) and instead treat the weapon as though it had reach. He must choose to do this at the beginning of his round, and cannot change back until his next turn. 10 Hurricane Wind (Su): By spinning his double weapon rapidly, the fighter can push away his enemies. As a full-round action, a fighter with a double weapon can generate a hurricane force wind in a 60ft cone. This wind is considered to be in effect until the fighter's next round for the purposes of ranged attacks, though everyone affected only needs to save once. 15 Double Whirlwind Attack: If the fighter has the Whirlwind Attack feat, he may now make two attacks per target instead; first with his main weapon, then with his off-hand weapon. 20 Tornado Strike (Su): By spinning his weapon over his head, the fighter can generate a tornado to sweep his enemies away. As a full round action, a fighter with a double weapon can generate a tornado in a 10ft radius around him. Anyone blown away by the wind is thrown 200ft in the air (or however high the roof is) and falls at the normal rate from that point. Also, the fighter is considered to be surrounded by a wind wall spell (though one that does not allow any (non ray) ranged attack through) until his next round. The fighter may use this ability only once per encounter. I realize, of course, that this class is hardly balanced, and there are several abilities missing, but that's why I'm posting this here. Keep in mind, I'm trying to make this something of a compromise between the actual fighter class and the classes presented in the Tome of Battle. Constructive criticism, anyone?
Kaligrad 10-06-06, 11:50 PM	C'mon, people, you complain about fighters all the time, well now's your chance to do something about it!
Crashy75 10-07-06, 12:37 AM	hmmm... First things first. I don't like all the dead levels. it's worse than the orig fighter in this regard. (10 dead levs like the ftr but 2 dead lev's in a row!!! That's a real killer at the higher levels) Weapon styles are an interesting idea but i personally would like to see something more like a maneuver progression. I'm not the best person to talk to, but you should check out the 'fighter sucks' forums on all the problems with the fighters especially at higher levels.
Seerow 10-07-06, 12:43 AM	Keep bonus feat progression as normal, make Weapon Styles come at levels 1,3,7,11,17,20. Maybe take out the 20th level Bonus Feat, but make sure you make the level 20 weapon style absolutely -awesome- Also, I don't get the Double Weapon ability. Switch to use it as a reach weapon? While that's rightly awesome... HOW? Seriously, think about trying to use a Double Sword as a reach weapon. You'd be litterally holding onto one of the blades to do this. Ouch ouch ouch.
OneWinged4ngel 10-07-06, 01:10 AM	Also, I don't get the Double Weapon ability. Switch to use it as a reach weapon? While that's rightly awesome... HOW? Seriously, think about trying to use a Double Sword as a reach weapon. You'd be litterally holding onto one of the blades to do this. Ouch ouch ouch. The answer is simple. Sword Chucks. (Seriously though, this is just about as bad as the original fighter, and it has even *more* dead levels!)
Kaligrad 10-07-06, 10:42 AM	Keep bonus feat progression as normal, make Weapon Styles come at levels 1,3,7,11,17,20. Maybe take out the 20th level Bonus Feat, but make sure you make the level 20 weapon style absolutely -awesome- I'd love to add an extra level of Weapon Styles to the mix, but as you can see I can't think of enough abilities to fill out the ones I've got. My primary goal right now is to finish out the Weapon Styles and balance them against one another, after that we can move on to avoiding "dead" levels. Any help, please? Also, I don't get the Double Weapon ability. Switch to use it as a reach weapon? While that's rightly awesome... HOW? Seriously, think about trying to use a Double Sword as a reach weapon. You'd be litterally holding onto one of the blades to do this. Ouch ouch ouch. How is it you can accept someone spinning around a double weapon to cause HURRICANE FORCE WINDS but not be able to grab it by its pointy end and not get hurt?
Seerow 10-07-06, 10:45 AM	How is it you can accept someone spinning around a double weapon to cause HURRICANE FORCE WINDS but not be able to grab it by its pointy end and not get hurt? Cause I'm picky like that. Also, he's grabbing the pointy end at level 5, at level 20 he's SUPPOSED to be supernatural.
starfire311 10-07-06, 10:57 AM	not a fan of all the dead levels, I still like lotus crane's fighter. FYI here it is da fighter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8695197&postcount=2)
Kaligrad 10-07-06, 02:15 PM	Say that he found a way to grab a blade that didn't involve hurting himself. Say that he got some gloves with thick padding. Say he developed calusus that thickened his hand without the help. The glory of D&D is that bald bonuses hide a variety of details that don't need to be told. BTW, I'm surprised that, as such a picky person, you didn't mention the fact that a double weapon striking ten feet away is horribly off balance. As for the dead levels, allow me to reiterate: I will DEAL with the dead levels AFTER I get some HELP with filling out and balancing what's ALREADY THERE. Sorry if that came out a little strong.
Kaligrad 10-25-06, 04:35 PM	I've wracked my brain and come up with an additional Sword style: Disarming strike. Since I felt it was only slightly more powerful than a feat, I made it first level and altered One handed Focus to make it fit for 5th level. Please, I'd like some help finishing this. PS- I think that's way too many feats on the one fighter build you pointed out.
Clawhound 10-26-06, 12:03 PM	Cool stuff. I do like the thinking. Though in the grand argument, you've only rearranged the deckchairs on the Titanic. Nothing is fundamentally different about the fighter. I like things like: (I'll make something up, feel free to disagree): Active Disarm - You may make a disarm attempt as a swift action during another's turn. Req: Fighter 11+ (Druids and clerics can't do this, you don't destroy your treasure, and you can do it reactively to protect others). Keep Going - You are now immune to the effects of stunning, etc. (Some high level spells have nasty side-affects that can't be avoided.) Hero - Increase reaction by one level when dealing with NPC's of similar alignment, and two levels when dealing with identical alignment, and somehow based on fighter BAB. (Reaction buffs are good!) Shifting Strike - Force your opponent on his turn to make a five foot step in a direction that you choose or take a -X AC for his next turn. (Manipulate that battlefield like clerics and druids can't). Skill Points: 6 + etc. Skill should look like: Run, Swim, Climb, Ride, Handle Animal, Hide, Sneak, Tumble, Balance, Spot, Listen, Profession (Soldier), Profession (Noble), Craft (esp armor and weapons) Ability to improve armor and weapons. (Craft Magical Arms and Armor.) I know that some folks disagree with this one. It steps on other classes. Well, "Hello McFly!", the other classes are already stepping on fighter. The fighter only loses if you use that argument. Perhaps, "good old weapon," where you get bonuses for staple weapons. You see where I'm going. Some ability to self-buff. Some ability to manipulate the battlefield. Some ability to affect non-combat. Useful in the non-combat parts of adventuring. Those are a few of the more sensical problems with fighters.
Kaligrad 11-01-06, 04:45 PM	Cool stuff. I do like the thinking. Though in the grand argument, you've only rearranged the deckchairs on the Titanic. Nothing is fundamentally different about the fighter. My intent is to make those deckchairs much more comfortable. Active Disarm - You may make a disarm attempt as a swift action during another's turn. Req: Fighter 11+ (Druids and clerics can't do this, you don't destroy your treasure, and you can do it reactively to protect others). Keep Going - You are now immune to the effects of stunning, etc. (Some high level spells have nasty side-affects that can't be avoided.) Good ideas, and thank you for helping me with my initial intent. The former is now Disarming Response, and has replaced the level 5 sword style, and the latter is Unstoppable and is included in the Shield tree. Hero - Increase reaction by one level when dealing with NPC's of similar alignment, and two levels when dealing with identical alignment, and somehow based on fighter BAB. (Reaction buffs are good!) Few enough core classes get social elements that I think the fighter can do without. Shifting Strike - Force your opponent on his turn to make a five foot step in a direction that you choose or take a -X AC for his next turn. (Manipulate that battlefield like clerics and druids can't). I like the idea, but I can't really understand how that would work. Skill Points: 6 + etc. Skill should look like: Run, Swim, Climb, Ride, Handle Animal, Hide, Sneak, Tumble, Balance, Spot, Listen, Profession (Soldier), Profession (Noble), Craft (esp armor and weapons) Personally, I believe that giving every class more skill points does little more than remove the utility of the existant skill based classes. I don't know why they don't get access to Spot and Listen, though, so I'll at least add that. Ability to improve armor and weapons. (Craft Magical Arms and Armor.) I know that some folks disagree with this one. It steps on other classes. Well, "Hello McFly!", the other classes are already stepping on fighter. The fighter only loses if you use that argument. Actually, it quite specifically steps on the other class I've built, re: the Alchemist (link in sig). Naturally, you'll understand if I avoid that one myself. Perhaps, "good old weapon," where you get bonuses for staple weapons. Quite heavily covered by the feats in the PHB and PHB2. You see where I'm going. Some ability to self-buff. Some ability to manipulate the battlefield. Some ability to affect non-combat. Useful in the non-combat parts of adventuring. Those are a few of the more sensical problems with fighters. Thank you, for giving my problems upon which I was able to affect solutions. As it stands, I am trying to give the fighter access to things normally absent. The shield tree is the ones with the AC buffs, while the axe tree gives them ability damage, which they usually can't get. With how it's shaping up, the sword tree is going to be battlefield control, while the double weapon and hammer trees give them spell-like supernatural effects that don't get used up as the day goes by.
strange_person 01-08-07, 06:08 PM	Overall, I like it. If you think it's still underpowered, just give bonus feats at every even-numbered level, and move the third fighing style up to 11th level. That forces players to choose between full pre-epic progression in a prestige class and the third fighting style abilities, which are awesome enough to be an acceptable trade for the 10th level abilities of many combat-focused PrCs. Also, that means that a fighter with sneak attack won't be able to completely outshine the rogue's signature combat ability. Constructive criticism: The phrasing for most of the Sword abilities seems a little odd. Why should Disarming Response count as an AoO when Immediate actions already have a limit? Good concepts, I just think the wording needs to be adjusted. Instead of, or in addition to, limiting the 15th level Sheild ability to 5 rounds and requiring a move action to activate it, how about making it only last as long as the characher has a sheild readied and continues to fight defensively, use combat expertise for at least 5 points, or use total defense? For the final Sheild ability, how about something like the rogue's Defensive Roll, except that on a successful save it redirects damage from the attack to the charachter's sheild? At 20th level, it seems like rolling a natural 1 on a massive damage save is increasingly a bigger threat than running out of HP, so sacrificing an item in order to avoid instant death starts to look like a pretty good option. If you go for that, there's no need for a uses-per-day restriction; before the charachter can use the ability again, they're probably going to need to find a new sheild (could lead to some dramatic situations where a normally agressive fighter, facing something big and dangerous that can't be slain directly, is forced into more of a tank role, and has to run around snatching up nonmagical sheilds from fallen minions or otherwise using improvised gear, tactics which would normally be obsolete by such high level). I'm particularly thinking of Eowyn's fight with the Ringwraith, where she manages to block a blow that would probably have been fatal, but it breaks her sheild (and arm). I would make the first-level Hammer ability require at least half the BAB to power attack, or some other minimum. At higher levels, -1 to hit in exchange for a free bull rush (the equivalent of an extra attack, and rightly so: it can force opponents through threatened squares, provoking AoOs, or since you don't need to follow, you can shove someone deep inside a hazardous area without having to get close to it yourself) after every successful attack, even spring attacks and AoOs, is just crazy. Since it only requires 1 class level, and won't even cost a point of BAB, it would definitely lead to dipping. The Deadly Wound ability should say "fighter," not "ronin." Lots of the fighting styles have uses limited on the basis of "encounters." There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but in some in-game situations it can be ambiguous. I'd say, replace the word "encounter" with "hour." That way, a series of fights in rapid succession can't all be riddled with superheroic beatdowns, but a seige or extended vehicle-based chase scene with occasional skirmishing (which might last more than a day, but could be iterpreted as a single "encounter") can include multiple uses of the fighter's best abilities. While it seems really powerful, I would allow the Tornado Strike ability to be used at will, with the restriction that it's as tiring as running (so it can't be used indefinitely for demolition purposes, or to wade through a truly overwhelming number of enemies one 5' step at a time). Look at what a Warlock can do at that level. A 10' radius emanation, plus a defensive ability that's useful but won't stop several common magical attacks (rays, magic missile) and that only works as long as you continue concentrating on it as a full-round action, isn't game-breaking. It's nonmagical, which is a big advantage, but it pales in comparison to some of the stuff that can be done with a dwarven defender and a spiked chain.