Post/Author/DateTime	Post
snakeman830 01-14-07, 04:06 PM	I've seen a few attempts on the boards at making a core Alchemist class. Unfortunately, they all either A. Try to copy FMA (unsuccesfully) or B. get away from what alchemists are famous for (transmutation). So, here is my idea: B.A.B Fort Ref Will 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1. +0 +2 +2 +0 5 3 - - - - - - - - Alchemical Insight 2. +1 +3 +3 +0 6 4 - - - - - - - - 3. +1 +3 +3 +1 6 5 - - - - - - - - Evasion 4. +2 +4 +4 +1 6 6 3 - - - - - - - Brew Potion 5. +2 +4 +4 +1 6 6 4 - - - - - - - Rapid Craft: Day 6. +3 +5 +5 +2 6 6 5 3 - - - - - - 7. +3 +5 +5 +2 6 6 6 4 - - - - - - Improved Evsion 8. +4 +6 +6 +2 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - - 9. +4 +6 +6 +3 6 6 6 6 4 - - - - - 10. +5 +7 +7 +3 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - Transmute metal to gold/gold to metal 1/week, Rapid craft: Hour 11. +5 +7 +7 +3 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - - - 12.+6/+1 +8 +8 +4 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - Transmute metal to gold/gold to metal 2/week 13.+6/+1 +8 +8 +4 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - - 14.+7/+2 +9 +9 +4 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - Transmute metal to gold/gold to metal 3/week 15.+7/+2 +9 +9 +5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - Rapid Craft: five minutes 16.+8/+3 +10 +10 +5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - Transmute metal to gold/gold to metal 1/day 17.+8/+3 +10 +10 +5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - 18.+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 Transmute metal to gold/gold to metal 2/day 19.+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 20.+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 Transmute materials 3/day, Rapid Craft: 1 minute Spells: Alchemists, like wizards, must prepare their spells from a spellbook. Unlike wizards, Alchemists have no inhabitions in sharing their spellbooks as it advances the science. Also, Alchemists are limited to the Sorcerer/Wizard spells of the school of Transmutation and Universals. Spellcasting for an Alchemist is governed by Intelligence. Alchemical Insight: Alchemists are incredibly focused on their craft, granting them a bonus on Craft (alchemy) equal to their Alchemist level. Also, as Alchemists have learned when things will soon go boom in the lab, they recieve their intelligence modifier as a competence bonus on saving throws Rapid Craft: By 5th level, Alchemists are so practiced at making Alchemical items that they can do so much faster. They now make Craft (alchemy) checks by the day instead of by the week. At 10th level, they become even faster, making them by the hour instead. At 15th level, it now takes them just five minutes to make a check. Finally, at 20th level, they make a check every minute of work instead. Transmute metal to gold/gold to metal (Su): At 10th level, the Alchemist has finally mastered his signature ability; turning common metals into gold. Doing this only changes the material and not any other properties of the transmuted item. An Iron Golem affected by this ability, for example, retains its hit dice, abilities, and will still attack a foe, it just looks prettier and is more shiny while doing so. Every other level, the alchemist can use this ability more often. An item transmuted to gold can only be transmuted back into it's original state. Transmute Materials (Su): At 20th level, the Alchemist has gained mastery over transmuting items and is no longer restricted by the kind of material he can change. As with transmuting metals, this only changes the material of the object, no other properties. For instance, a person changed to stone is not petrified, but rather just made of rock. (This may change some things such as weight and hardness at the DM's discretion) Hit Die: D6 Skill Points: 4 + Int Modifier Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha) Starting Gold: 4D6 *10 Alignment: Any Armor Proficiencies: light armor, but no shields. Like Bards, Alchemists ignore arcane spell failure chance when weraing light armor. Weapon Proficiencies: all simple weapons, hand crossbow, and repeating crossbows. Alchemists have learned how to use a sling to hurl alchemical items a further distance then they can on their own. They do not take the normal -1 penalty on atack rolls. Please excuse the poorly organized colums. In any case, what do you think? Suggestions on how to improve it are welcome.
Lady Maedhros 01-14-07, 04:23 PM	This is the best 1-level wizard dip evar. Alchemical insight is crazy powerful for any Int caster; unlike a paladin or hexblade, a wizard isn't subject to MAD to any degree at all, and can pump his Int score to crazy heights with virtually no opportunity cost. Make it level-contingent, perhaps - 1 point bonus per four levels, to a maximum of his Int bonus, or something. Other than that, I like the flavor generally, although transmuting gold/metal is kind of silly (because it has no mechanical effect - might as well make it at will in that case, given the state of the D&D economy it doesn't really matter at that level financially), and transmuting other things (flesh/stone for example) seems prone to abuse. You might consider giving him some better weapon profs, though. A quick glance at the transmutation list shows that he doesn't have a single decent offensive power until polymorph, and his first decent save-or-dies don't show up until he gets 6th level spells; at low levels he's going to be buffing... period. At least if he has a longsword or something at early levels, he can pop a bull's strength on himself and contribute a little in melee.
snakeman830 01-14-07, 05:07 PM	I'll agree that the metal to gold/gold to metal is somewhat useless, I just have it in there for flavor (and sometimes interesting interactions with NPC's) The transmuting stone to flesh stuff doesn't matter as much as you might think. By 20th level, the interactions dealing with material mean very little since (virtually) everyone has a way of bypassing it. As for weapon proficiencies, they already have access to the morningstar which is just as effective as a longsword plus overcomes more DR's. Granted, they may not be able to match a fighter with a greatsword for damage, but that is not their point. They are meant to be a support class, not a soloist. No expirienced player in their right mind would think of doing a wizard as a solo character with no allies. Fighter, mabye, but not a wizard. These guys are meant to support the other members of the party, and they do that quite well.
Lady Maedhros 01-15-07, 03:05 AM	No expirienced player in their right mind would think of doing a wizard as a solo character with no allies. Fighter, mabye, but not a wizard. These guys are meant to support the other members of the party, and they do that quite well. Hmm.... your call of course, but as a general rule, people don't like playing pure support classes. That's why people complain so much about the bard, and that's why WotC made the Cleric so insanely uber that it defies reason, just so people would be willing to roll up the damn thing. I am not one of those people - bard and cleric are my favorite classes, I love being the guy who makes everyone else better - but I am not like most people, and it's something I try to be aware of during class design. And your alchemist, at low to mid levels, is one of the most support-y support classes I've ever seen. Even a level 1 wizard can throw out a color spray or shocking grasp when he gets fidgety and feels left out of the fun. The transmuting stone to flesh stuff doesn't matter as much as you might think. By 20th level, the interactions dealing with material mean very little since (virtually) everyone has a way of bypassing it. Off-hand, turn a foe to ice while standing near a lava pit and watch the sucker melt. Since you don't specify the mechanics of "transmute materials," this looks like a pretty straightforward no-save, no-SR one-hit kill to me. Given combat ramifications like that, you at the very least need to specify how this transmuting is done - is it a touch attack, a standard action, a five-hour process, what? Are special materials and a lab required, or does he just do it by sheer force of awesomeness? And I still say it's kind of weird to have per week limitations on something with no mechanical impact whatsoever. "1/week" as a concept has a very specific purpose - to keep crazy powerful abilities like a jade phoenix's whole self-resurrection deal from breaking the game. Putting it on something that's just for flavor.... It's like saying "this guy can change the color of his shoelaces once per week, and then twice a week three levels later!" :thinks: Better to just give it to him at will than mask it as a real benefit of class advancement. Just my :twocents:
NightScreamer20 01-15-07, 03:32 AM	No offense, but there is nothing new to this class that you can't do with a Wizard or Sorcerer... There's nearly a flesh to (blank) or (blank) to flesh spell for anything, not to mention polymorph and transmute spells... Being an Alchemist is too specific to make into any Core Class, it should be saved for PrC such as the Alchemist Savant (Magic of Eberron) and the Master Alchemist (Magic of Faerun). Sorry but only allowed to utilize Universal and Transmutation spells, along with only 1/2 BAB, Low HD, and only 2 Good Saves? I'd rather be a Wizard sit and my lab and make a fine potion, then step out and lay a Fireball across the field of battle.
Qube 01-15-07, 04:53 AM	plz look in my sig how to use code tags to put the class in a table
snakeman830 01-15-07, 09:04 PM	Thanks Qube. Okay, I'll admit I didn't think about the ice possibility. I know I should have (but didn't, my stupidity) put in the specs on transmuting stuff. Treat it as a Stone to Flesh spell against living (or animate) targets and a Rock to Mud on inanimate I'll agree with you that the limit is kind of pointless, but if I took it out, we'd be dealing with 12 dead levels, most of which are after level 9. BUT... If I were to take out that limit, what kind of things should I replace it with? Instead of just saying the class is underpowered, make suggestions to bring it up to par. As is, the class is a standard transmuter on steroids (without access to divination, but I don't know many people who actually use that school of magic anyway).
Lady Maedhros 01-16-07, 09:06 PM	I'm not sure you really need to replace it with anything - dead levels aren't as big an issue for casters, who get spell advancement, and you do have the improvements in Rapid Craft to keep interest until the end. And I wouldn't say the class is underpowered (though it is possibly front-loaded) - lots of spells per day, two good saves, and some useful tricks like Evasion is a pretty good deal. But if you're looking for some interesting high-level powers, you might let the transmuter start transmuting himself. Maybe do like a rogue - every few levels, let him select from a list of self-improvements he can incorporate into his own physiology, like a physical stat increase, or a small amount of damage reduction of some kind, or something along those lines, to represent his ability to change the very materials of his own body into something better.
Flay Crimsonwind 01-16-07, 11:53 PM	Alchemist aren't famous for transmuting iron into gold; they're famous for trying. And failing, resulting in their own death (because: ). Realistically, if you wanted to make an alchemist, you were making a greed-obsessed chemist, as that's what chemists were called before the 1800's; alchemists. Most killed themselves by mixing fluids akin to bleach and chlorine, or putting electric currents through saltwater, or blew themselves up in "experiments". That's really what an alchemist is, if you're trying for more realism than FMA and want to be a "famous" alchemist....... So essentially, you want a wiz. I dun understand why there's even a specific alchemist class, as the wizard does it all already. Just take transmutation as your favored school and go wild.......
ZolDarklock 01-17-07, 12:32 AM	It seems your alchemist is more a gold maker than anything else... perhaps you should re-think exactly what being a true alchemist means... think about skill points, knowledge, and feats on such subjects as chemistry, biology, physics, pharamacy, medicine, plant lore, metallurligy "can't think how to spell that one" research, laboratory usage, sage like knowledge in such fields and such... best alchemist I ever knew had sage like skills in chemistry, biology, pharmacy, plant lore, and physics... being a master sage is mostly knowledge in such fields, only then can they use other feats, and skills to put that knowledge to effectuve use in a lab, and even then true master alchemist often make discoveries, not just pump out bottles of common magical brews for his party the plant lore skills alone could be a game breaker, there are hundreds of known plants and other substances in the realms that can do everything from turn the undead to to literally cure almost everything and then some, having a PrC that can make use of even half that exhaustive list would be mindbinding
snakeman830 01-18-07, 12:23 PM	Hmm, let me think here. I like the idea of self improvements over levels. I'll definitly think that over hard. I also thought about making the items they make better (such as Alchemists fire dealing more damage or burning for longer). I'll put up Version 2.0 soon
snakeman830 01-18-07, 01:07 PM	Okay, Version 2.0 B.A.B Fort Ref Will 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1. +0 +2 +2 +0 5 3 - - - - - - - - Alchemical Insight 2. +1 +3 +3 +0 6 4 - - - - - - - - 3. +1 +3 +3 +1 6 5 - - - - - - - - Evasion 4. +2 +4 +4 +1 6 6 3 - - - - - - - Brew Potion 5. +2 +4 +4 +1 6 6 4 - - - - - - - Rapid Craft: Day 6. +3 +5 +5 +2 6 6 5 3 - - - - - - 7. +3 +5 +5 +2 6 6 6 4 - - - - - - Improved Evsion 8. +4 +6 +6 +2 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - - 9. +4 +6 +6 +3 6 6 6 6 4 - - - - - 10. +5 +7 +7 +3 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - Transmute metal to gold/gold to metal, Rapid craft: Hour 11. +5 +7 +7 +3 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - - - Special Ability 12 +6/+1 +8 +8 +4 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - 13.+6/+1 +8 +8 +4 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - - Special Ability 14.+7/+2 +9 +9 +4 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - 15.+7/+2 +9 +9 +5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - Rapid Craft: five minutes, Special Ability 16.+8/+3 +10 +10 +5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - 17.+8/+3 +10 +10 +5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - Special Ability 18.+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 19.+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 Special Ability 20.+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 Transmute materials 3/day, Rapid Craft: 1 minute, Special Ability Spells: Alchemists, like wizards, must prepare their spells from a spellbook. Unlike wizards, Alchemists have no inhabitions in sharing their spellbooks as it advances the science. Also, Alchemists are limited to the Sorcerer/Wizard spells of the school of Transmutation and Universals. Spellcasting for an Alchemist is governed by Intelligence. Alchemical Insight: Alchemists are incredibly focused on their craft, granting them a bonus on Craft (alchemy) equal to their Alchemist level. Also, as Alchemists have learned when things will soon go boom in the lab, they recieve their intelligence modifier as a competence bonus on saving throws Rapid Craft: By 5th level, Alchemists are so practiced at making Alchemical items that they can do so much faster. They now make Craft (alchemy) checks by the day instead of by the week. At 10th level, they become even faster, making them by the hour instead. At 15th level, it now takes them just five minutes to make a check. Finally, at 20th level, they make a check every minute of work instead. Transmute metal to gold/gold to metal (Su): At 10th level, the Alchemist has finally mastered his signature ability; turning common metals into gold. Doing this only changes the material and not any other properties of the transmuted item. An Iron Golem affected by this ability, for example, retains its hit dice, abilities, and will still attack a foe, it just looks prettier and is more shiny while doing so. An item transmuted to gold can only be transmuted back into it's original state. This ability can be used at will and works like a [transmute mud to rock[/i] spell. Special Abilities (Su): At 11th level and every other level thereafter (plus 20th), an alchemist may gain one of the special abilities listed below. Immunity to Poison: (self explanitory) Extend Item: When crafting an alchemical item that has a duration, you can increase that duration by increasing the Carft DC by 1 per round of increased duration. In items with long durations (such as a sunrod), increase the DC by 5 for each hour instead. Maximize Item: On alchemical items with variable effects, you can create a maximized version (like using the metamagic feat) instead by doubling the Craft DC. This ability can only be taken after reaching 15th level. Improved item: You can make improved alchemy items by increasing the base price. Increase the price by the original amount for each time you want to multiply its effects (for instance, normal acid flasks cost 10gp. One that does 2D6 damage instead of 1D6 has a base price of 20gp. One that does 3D6 costs 30, and so forth.) On Tanglefoot bags, this increase in price instead adds 5 to the save DC. Improved Speed: Add 10ft to all forms of movement. This bonus stacks with all other bonuses. This ability can be taken multiple times. Improved Natural Armor: Unlike the feat, this adds 2 to Natural armor. This stacks with all other bonuses. This ability can be taken multiple times. Damage Reduction: This ability improves the Alchemists Damage reduction by 1/-. This ability can be taken multiple times up to a maximum of five times. resistance: The alchemist gains resistance 10 to an energy type of their choice. If the Alchemist already has an energy resistance, this ability adds to it. This ability can be taken multiple times, but each time it is taken, it must apply to a different energy type. Improved Brewing: An alchemist with this ability is capable of brewing potions of any 3rd level or lower spell, even if he cannot cast the spell himself. However, he must succeed on a DC25 + Spell level Spellcraft check to do this. Ability Increase: The Alchemist may increase one of his abilities by 1 point. This ability cannot be taken until 15th level. This ability can be taken up to three times. Bonus Feat Transmute Materials (Su): At 20th level, the Alchemist has gained mastery over transmuting items and is no longer restricted by the kind of material he can change. As with transmuting metals, this only changes the material of the object, no other properties. For instance, a person changed to stone is not petrified, but rather just made of rock. (This may change some things such as weight and hardness at the DM's discretion) Against living (or animate) targets, treat this as a Stone to Flesh spell. Against non-living targets, treat this as a Rock to Mud spell. Hit Die: D6 Skill Points: 4 + Int Modifier Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha) Starting Gold: 4D6 *10 Alignment: Any Armor Proficiencies: light armor, but no shields. Like Bards, Alchemists ignore arcane spell failure chance when weraing light armor. Weapon Proficiencies: all simple weapons, hand crossbow, and repeating crossbows. Alchemists have learned how to use a sling to hurl alchemical items a further distance then they can on their own. They do not take the normal -1 penalty on atack rolls.
Lady Maedhros 01-18-07, 02:14 PM	Nice. :)
The_Mad_Linguist 01-18-07, 05:35 PM	Alchemical insight still needs work. Push it back a level, and make the bonus to AC instead. (Or maybe give the save bonus, but restrict it to spells with the acid or fire descriptor.)
snakeman830 01-19-07, 12:53 PM	Ok, so did the special abilities maintain intrest in seeing this class through all 20 levels?
snakeman830 01-21-07, 02:41 PM	I would like a little more feedback please.