Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chachi 10-12-03, 03:39 AM	Hi. After looking at Krynus Ogrebane's alternate sorcerer thread, I decided to take a whack at fleshing out the class. Many of these ideas were inspired by or lifted from that thread, so credit's due to Krynus and the host of other people who posted there. Thank you for the inspiration. :D Now, on with the build. It's a little quirky and doubtless has some kinks left to work out, so I'm open to comments and suggestions. Sorcerer: A spellcaster with innate magical power. Alignment: Any Hit Die: d4 Base Attack Bonus: 1/2 Saves: Good will, poor fortitude and reflex Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int) Skill points at first level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier Class Features Weapon and armor proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with armor or shields. Armor of any type interferes with a sorcerer’s arcane gestures, which can cause spells with somatic components to fail. Spells: See page 54 of the Player’s Handbook. No Materials (Ex): Sorcerers do not use material or focus components in their spells and may simply ignore these or, in the case of foci, substitute an object that can serve a similar purpose (for example, a sorcerer may scry through any reflective surface of at least 2 feet by 4 feet). However, the sorcerer must still pay the XP cost for any spell that demands such an expenditure. Familiar: See page 54 of the Player’s Handbook. Toughness: Sorcerers are more robust than their counterparts, the wizards. At 1st, 10th, and 20th level, they gain the benefits of the Toughness feat. Innate Prestidigitation (Su): Upon reacing 3rd level, the sorcerer can create minor magical effects, as per the spell Prestidigitation, at will. If the sorcerer previously chose Prestidigitation as a cantrip, they may replace it with another 0-level spell. Innate Magics (Sp): At 5th level, the sorcerer has reached the point where he can cast some minor spells using a fraction of his magical power. He may cast three 0-level spells of his choice an additional number of times per day equal to half his Charisma modifier. Magic Sense (Su): Sorcerers have an innate sixth sense that affords them a chance to perceive magical auras, even if they are not aware of them. Any sorcerer who passes within 5 feet of a magical aura is entitled to a caster level check (DC 11 + caster level) to notice it as if they were actively looking for it. Any spell that blocks divination raises the DC of the check by a modifier equal to the spell’s level, but does not prevent a sorcerer from sniffing it out. At 15th level, the sorcerer’s range of perception increases to 10 feet, and he gains an insight bonus equal to his charisma modifier. Metamagic Aptitude (Ex): By 10th level, the sorcerer has learned to use metamagic more effectively. He chooses one metamagic feat that in his repertoire, and any time he casts a spell with this metamagic feat applied to it, the casting time is not increased. If the same metamagic feat is applied more than once, or multiple metamagic feats are applied to the same spell, the casting time is increased normally. At 20th level, the sorcerer may select a second metamagic feat for use with this ability. Bonus Feat: At 10th level, a sorcerer gains one bonus feat of his choosing. Spells per day: .... 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1.. 5 3 - - - - - - - - 2.. 6 4 - - - - - - - - 3.. 6 5 - - - - - - - - 4.. 6 6 3 - - - - - - - 5.. 6 6 4 - - - - - - - 6.. 6 6 5 3 - - - - - - 7.. 6 6 6 4 - - - - - - 8.. 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - - 9.. 6 6 6 6 4 - - - - - 10. 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - 11. 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - - - 12. 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - 13. 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - - 14. 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - 15. 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - 16. 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - 17. 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - 18. 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 19. 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 20. 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 Spells Known: .... 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1.. 4 2 - - - - - - - - 2.. 5 2 - - - - - - - - 3.. 5 3 - - - - - - - - 4.. 6 3 1 - - - - - - - 5.. 6 4 2 - - - - - - - 6.. 7 4 2 1 - - - - - - 7.. 7 5 3 2 - - - - - - 8.. 8 5 3 2 1 - - - - - 9.. 8 5 4 3 2 - - - - - 10. 9 5 4 3 2 1 - - - - 11. 9 5 5 4 3 2 - - - - 12. 9 5 5 4 3 2 1 - - - 13. 9 5 5 5 4 3 2 - - - 14. 9 5 5 5 4 3 2 1 - - 15. 9 5 5 5 5 4 3 2 - - 16. 9 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 1 - 17. 9 5 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 - 18. 9 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 2 1 19. 9 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 20. 9 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 3
Krynus Ogrebane 10-12-03, 03:56 AM	I'm glad that we could inspire you with the work we did on our alt.sorcerer. It's flattering. We are still working on it, by the way, although we're close to finished (I think). I'm looking over this variant, and I noticed a number of things. It appears that... 1. ... you are using 3.0 rules. 2. ... you added a bunch of class abilities (some are pretty cool, by the way) without removing anything as a measure of balance. 3. ... you added more spells known. Just wondering... do you feel that the PHB.sorcerer is underpowered?
Chachi 10-12-03, 04:11 AM	When I first started composing this build, I didn't have access to the 3.5 rules. I did look back over it with the new books at hand, though, and it seems like everything is 3.5 compatible. On the other hand, please let me know where I may be in error so I can correct myself. As far as the class abilities go, I felt like I was getting close to a reasonable balance, but I've been shoving this build in everyone's faces to gauge their opinions of which are balanced and which are not. Same applies to here: I'm on the fence as far as a few of the abilities are, and wanted to hear from others. Thirdly, I feel that not only is the PHB sorcerer a bit underpowered, but lacking in anything that would compel someone to stay in it for a full 20 levels.
Talcoram Cyndar 10-12-03, 04:23 AM	Many of these ideas were inspired or lifted from that thread, so credit's due to Krynus and the host of other people who posted there. Thank you for the inspiration. As a member of that 'host', you're welcome. Now on to your post... No Materials (Ex): Sorcerers do not use material or focus components in their spells and may simply ignore these or, in the case of foci, substitute an object that can serve a similar purpose (for example, a sorcerer may scry through any reflective surface of at least 2 feet by 4 feet). However, the sorcerer must still pay the XP cost for any spell that demands such an expenditure. IIRC, this is identical to the epic feat: Ignore Materials and is therefore just a tad bit powerful as a class feature at first level. Toughness: Sorcerers are more robust than their counterparts, the wizards. At 1st, 10th, and 20th level, they gain the benefits of the Toughness feat. Interesting, A nice compromise for those folks who would like to see a d6 sorcerer. Not my cup of tea mind you but interesting never the less. Innate Prestidigitation (Su): The sorcerer can create minor magical effects, as per the spell Prestidigitation, at will. If the sorcerer previously chose Prestidigitation as a cantrip, they may replace it with another 0-level spell. I like this. We looked at this seriously, but it was ultimately dropped. I can't remember exactly why at the moment. *scratches head confusedly* Finagle (Ex): Sorcerers can use their natural magical talent to trick scrolls, wands, and other items into working for them. At 6th level, they gain Use Magic Device as a class skill. Bad, Bad idea. I realize that in 3.5 UMD is no longer a cross-class skill, but that was a bad, bad, idea also. I do not like the thought of any class other than clerics, druid, and the ocassional rogue to have easy accesss to mealing magic. Healing magic is very powerful/useful. Allowing anyone access to it removes one of the primary reasons for the very existance of a cleric(druid) in your party/campaign. Innate Magics (Sp): At 5th level, the sorcerer has reached the point where he can cast some minor spells using a fraction of his magical power. He may cast three 0-level spells of his choice an additional number of times per day equal to half his Charisma modifier. Again, I like it. Kind of a sorcerer's version of spell mastery huh? Good idea. Magic Sense (Su): Sorcerers have an innate sixth sense that affords them a chance to perceive magical auras, even if they are not aware of them. Any sorcerer who passes within 5 feet of a magical aura is entitled to a caster level check (DC 11 + caster level) to notice it as if they were actively looking for it. Any spell that blocks divination raises the DC of the check by a modifier equal to the spell’s level, but does not prevent a sorcerer from sniffing it out. At 15th level, the sorcerer’s range of perception increases to 10 feet, and he gains an insight bonus equal to his charisma modifier. Again, another good idea. Looks like you based this off of an elf's ability to detect secret doors? We were looking at a version of detect magic at will, but I think I like this even better. Nice. Metamagic Aptitude (Ex): By 10th level, the sorcerer has learned to use metamagic more effectively. Any time he casts a spell with a single metamagic feat applied to it, the casting time is not increased. If the same metamagic feat is applied more than once, or multiple metamagic feats are applied to the same spell, the casting time is increased normally. At 20th level, the number of metamagic feats the sorcerer may apply without extending a spell’s casting time increases to two. Too powerful IMO. Completely removing the time penalty for all metamagic feats known is too much. We gave the player the option to choose one metamagic feat at a time for use with this ability Take a look at the Alternate Sorcerer Thread and the current disscussion regarding the use of Quicken combined with a sorcerer's spontaneous spellcasting for a much more in-depth look at the potential problems with this. Bonus Feat: At 10th level, a sorcerer gains one bonus feat of his choosing. I would limit the selection of bonus feats available. Possibly any metamagic, item creation feats, skill focus, spell penetration, greater spell penetration, etc. You get the idea. Overall, not a bad effort. It is flattering to see someone use our work as the baseline for their own new class. Thanks for the compliment!! I think you have some really good ideas here. Some others may just need a little adjustment. Keep up the good work! By the way, you should join in on the disscusion on the Alternate Sorcerer Thread. We are always looking for suggestions, ideas, and comments. See ya' around..... -TC
Chachi 10-12-03, 04:43 AM	Hm. Your concern as far as Finagle goes is perfectly understandable. Edited, with the proviso that only arcane items may be Finagled. I'll let your comments on the other class abilities percolate. For now, though, I need some sleep. Toodles.
Krynus Ogrebane 10-12-03, 05:18 AM	Originally posted by Chachi: When I first started composing this build, I didn't have access to the 3.5 rules. I did look back over it with the new books at hand, though, and it seems like everything is 3.5 compatible. Here is the Revised (v.3.5) System Reference Document (http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35), if you don't already have it. On the other hand, please let me know where I may be in error so I can correct myself. The skills is what jumped out at me. Alchemy is now Craft (alchemy) and Scry is no longer a skill at all. As far as the class abilities go, I felt like I was getting close to a reasonable balance, but I've been shoving this build in everyone's faces to gauge their opinions of which are balanced and which are not. Same applies to here: I'm on the fence as far as a few of the abilities are, and wanted to hear from others. No Materials (Ex): As Talcoram pointed out, this is an epic feat... actually, this is better, because the epic feat Ignore Material Components does not alleviate the need for focuses. Toughness: Yep. This is a good one for the d6 HD crowd, although our approach was to leave it as a choice for the player instead of "written in stone". Innate Prestidigitation (Su): I remember why we ditched this ability. What we did instead was have cantrips per day AND cantrips known increase with level. Also, the CHA modifier is added to the number of cantrips the sorcerer can cast per day. Finagle (Ex): On this one, I agree with Talcoram. Healing magic in the hands of a full arcane caster is begging for trouble. Innate Magics (Sp): We ditched this for the same reason as Innate Prestidigitation. I believe we had Innate Magic Detection, and had it progress to Arcane Sight (which I still love for the pure coolness factor of glowing blue eyes :) ). Magic Sense (Su): This is certainly creative. It's similiar to elven secret-door detection, or dwarven stonecunning. Not bad, flavor-wise, although being able to cast Detect Magic at will makes this pretty much obsolete (if it's on your spells known list, of course). Metamagic Aptitude (Ex): Bonus Feat: What Talcoram said :) . Spells Known: ... 20. 9 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 3 This is the part that made me go :twitch:. You've added five spells known (plus the other stuff, above), but nothing was subtracted. This is a huge boon for the class. Thirdly, I feel that not only is the PHB sorcerer a bit underpowered, but lacking in anything that would compel someone to stay in it for a full 20 levels. While I disagree that the PHB.sorcerer is underpowered, I whole-heartedly agree that there is no incentive to stay 1-20... one of the biggest reasons we've been working on our alt.sorcerer thus far. Hm. Your concern as far as Finagle goes is perfectly understandable. Edited, with the proviso that only arcane items may be Finagled. :confused: Sorcerers can do this now, without needing to make a check, as part of the benefit of having most every arcane spell on their spell list. I'll let your comments on the other class abilities percolate. For now, though, I need some sleep. Toodles. Ditto.
Greyman 10-12-03, 06:56 AM	Originally posted by Chachi When I first started composing this build, I didn't have access to the 3.5 rules. I did look back over it with the new books at hand, though, and it seems like everything is 3.5 compatible. On the other hand, please let me know where I may be in error so I can correct myself. ... Class Skills: Alchemy (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Scry (Int, exclusive), and Spellcraft (Int)1) Scry is no longer a skill in 3.5. Divination spells, including scrying, do not need the (now nonexistant) skill to be used. The subject of scrying gets an unconscious Will save to block the effect, but is otherwise unaware of the attempt unless the detect scrying spell is in action. (Detect scrying is available only to bards, wizards and sorcerors!) 2) There are no exclusive skill in 3.5. Some skills still require training to be used, but all skills can be purchased by any class, albeit as cross class skills if not on their class skill list. [edit: spelling]
Talcoram Cyndar 10-12-03, 11:52 AM	Originally Posted by Krynus Ogrebane: Innate Prestidigitation (Su): I remember why we ditched this ability. What we did instead was have cantrips per day AND cantrips known increase with level. Also, the CHA modifier is added to the number of cantrips the sorcerer can cast per day. Ah... Thanks for the reminder Krynus old boy! Chachi- On spells known- sorry, I didn't catch this when I first read your post. Krynus is correct. This provides a big powerup for the sorcerer. While I think that the PHB sorcerer needs a little more ...something... you do need to be careful when re-desigining a class so as to not remove the balance from the classes. We recognized that by adding abilities to the sorcerer we were going to give him a power-up. However, we tried to minimize/balance this by removing things (slots/day) and by limiting the power of the abilities. If you look carefuly at out alt.sorcerer, you should see that almost all of the abilities have some mitigating factor that keep them from being a straight power-up. (our Expeditious MetaMagic v. your MetaMagic Apptitde comes to mind) Did we power-up the sorcerer? A little. That was unavoidable, but we did do our best to minimize the impact. I hope this helps you a little. -TC
Thot 10-12-03, 12:10 PM	Overall, I'm of the same mind that TC and Ogrebane. :) Details : Skills Points : 4 Is not really needed, IMHO, but is always a subject of much discussions... so, why not consider it ? No Materials : As discussed, overpowered, IMHO. More powerful than an Epic Feat ! Toughness : Well, I don't like it, but, well... See SP. Innate Prestidigitation & Magics : Sure, good. Finagle : Bards can make Arcane magic items, with healing properties... That said, I like this ability. *puts on his pro-UMD crusader flame-proof full-plate of heavy fortification, and make mental note to finally post his take on UMD. Well, as soon as written, that is...* Magic Sense : :love: MetaMagic Aptitude : Well, yeah... it's probably overpowered. Bonus Feat : What for ? To give him the same stuff as a Wiz, when we all would like him to be more different. Your other ideas does the trick better, IMHO. Spells per day : Our main mitigating factor. If you do not use this one, you should probably look into another one. Spells known : Well... The 3.0 didn't need it improved to be up to his task. In 3.5, I'm not sure, so I'll reserve my judgment. Whatever the case, giving more is indeed a power-up (Whooo ! THE revelation ! :rolleyes: ). Make up your own mind if it is required or not.
Chachi 10-12-03, 07:06 PM	Edited out the bonus feat and Finagle class ability, and made alterations to Metamagic Aptitude and the skill list. I'm also currently working on the spells known list and the material component issue. Finagle may return in some form or another, so additional thoughts on it would be appreciated. So far, excellent comments and critique. Keep it coming, please. :)
Chachi 10-13-03, 04:42 AM	:bump: Don't desert me, now. I'll not hesitate to start with the burnination... :smirk: