An alternative to the monk/paladin class restriction [Archive] - Wizards Community

An alternative to the monk/paladin class restriction [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nethicus
08-12-04, 09:25 AM Non-related class penalties: Some classes require more discipline and focus than others. Classes like the monk and the paladin bar a character from advancing should they multiclass. Instead of such a rigid course of action, characters are penalized for diverting their classes from their major course of study, but after they “catch up” with their class, they can freely advance, even with other “non-permitted” classes. Lower levels are easier to overcome with penalties, as the lower mysteries of a class are not as complex as the higher mysteries.

Classes which are "disciplined" and experience a non-related class penalty are cleric, druid, monk, paladin, ranger, and wizard. Related classes must fit with the general form of the class. A cleric who takes a few levels of paladins does not suffer the non-related class penalty, nor does a paladin experience a non-related penalty for taking a level of cleric. Presitge classes are evaluated by the DM to determine if they are related or non-related. Clerics can freely multiclass as paladins and vice versa. Druids can freely multiclass as rangers and vice versa. Monks and wizards cannot multiclass with a core class without suffering a non-related class penalty. Fighers, Bards, Rogues and Sorcerers do not have non-related classes.

If a character takes a new level in a class that is regarded as a “non-related” class, the new level(s) incur a penalty should the character ever advance in that previous class again. The penalty is 1/5th of the total experience in the non-related classes. This
penalty is a wholly separate amount from the character’s total experience, and it lingers until it is paid. The penalty only applies should the character decide to advance in the class that incurred the non-related penalty.

For example, Brick, the 3rd level fighter, has been blessed by the temple of the God of Justice, and he decides to take 1 level of paladin. Fighter is a non-related class to paladin, but as those levels were taken first, and fighter has no non-related classes, there is no penalty.

Davros the Mighty, the 3rd level paladin, has decided to become a more efficient killing machine by picking up two levels in fighter, and the corresponding feats. After the two levels of fighter, Davros returns to follow the path of the paladin. Davros’ fighter levels are 4th and 5th, a total of 9000 experience. One-fifth of that total is 1800 xp. Before Davros can proceed on the path of paladin, he must pay 1800 xp to remove the penalty. So Davros needs a total of 10800 xp to reach 6th level, and his total experience at 6th level will still be 15,000. The 1800 xp is a penalty paid in blood sweat
and tears and, once applied to the penalty, cannot be used for anything else, such as magical item creation.

Sherman the Monk has 6 levels in the martial class. However, he has become disillusioned with the class, and now pursues the class of rogue, picking up two levels in the thiefly arts. Sherman must pay a penalty of 1/5th of 13,000 experience (2600 xp) if
he ever wants to be a monk again. However, as Sherman has cast that life aside, he doesn’t have to pay the penalty unless he wants to pick up another level in monk.

Velo the Wizard has 9 levels in wizard has decided to pursue 2 levels of fighter. Fighter is a non-related class for Velo. Velo has 45000 total experience, plus 2000 he’s paid towards the penalty of 3800 for his two levels of fighter, when he gets the full blast of
dragon breath. He is raised by the cleric and loses a level, dropping him down to halfway between the last level, 40,500 xp. Velo loses a level in wizard. As Velo wants to gain more levels in wizard, he must pay the remainder of the penalty (1800 xp) before accumulating experience back towards 11th level.

--------------------------------

Any comments?
Nethicus
08-12-04, 11:03 PM Any comments?
Mitchell
08-13-04, 02:35 AM Well, you forgot about the poor barbarian. :(

Now, as to the heart of the matter... Where do standard multiclassing penalties fit in here? If a 6th level 1/2 orc paladin decides to take a level or two as a fighter, are they penalized for both the "non-related class" and the fact that neither are a favored class? If so, is the XP penalty for one calculated on the modified XP needed because of the other?

The Forgotten Realms has a system in place for multi-classing paladins. Everyone has a patron diety, and depending on the diety you choose, you can multi-class with one or more other classes with no penalty. You could rig up something similar using the Greyhawk dieties in the PHB. The monk, if I remember correctly (not much of a monk man) isn't as restricted... At least they can keep their abilities, even if they can no longer advance.

The biggest problem that I have with what you presented are the arguable "related classes". Why does a paladin have to be associated with a cleric, and not a fighter. I'm getting ready to crank up a 1/2 orc paladin who is far more capable in combat than with spells and turning (17 str, 12 wis and cha). Yet I look here and see that my holy warrior is more akin to a cleric than a fighter... Don't tell him that ;) . Same with a ranger. And why isn't the druid associated with the cleric? They're both priests, and depending on the pantheon you could have it both ways.

Personally, I don't see myself as a champion for your cause, but maybe with a bit of work...
Nethicus
08-13-04, 10:30 AM Well, you forgot about the poor barbarian.

Yes I did. But he's like the fighter, no non-related class penalties.

They're easy to forget. :)

The Forgotten Realms has a system in place for multi-classing paladins.

Yes it does, and this mimics that system to an extent, as the multi-classing is diety dependent. It can be said that paladins are more interesting in following a spirtual martial path, and any deviation from the spiritual bans them from ever going back. I had a problem with "barring" someone from a class if they did not deserve barring, so I came up with this alternative.

If you feel paladins should also mutli freely as fighters, fine. House-rule it. This idea is up for general use and should be world-dependent.

I just don't see how a monk who picks up a level of fighter for extra feats can never progress as a monk again.

Now, as to the heart of the matter... Where do standard multiclassing penalties fit in here? If a 6th level 1/2 orc paladin decides to take a level or two as a fighter, are they penalized for both the "non-related class" and the fact that neither are a favored class? If so, is the XP penalty for one calculated on the modified XP needed because of the other?

The favored classes were presented to balance the advantages some races have over humans, detailing that some races have a natural aptitude towards specific classes. As a result, the penalty would be enforced for the non-related class as well as for the two non-favored classes. Of course, the 1/2 orc paladin would be able to go back to being a paladin after picking up the fighter class. If you instituted a house rule stating that paladins could freely multi as fighters and clerics, he wouldn't have to worry about that.

I currently play a paladin who's quite martial in this campaign setting with this rule. He's human, and picking up some cleric levels still pursues the spiritual path the paladin devoted himself to. However, even with a martial aspect, abandoning the spiritual for pure combat skills does not mesh with the concept of paladin, so the fighter, regrettably, was pushed into a non-related class for paladin. That was our reasoning.
CzarGarrett
08-13-04, 11:21 AM Going just by the core rules, Paladins and Monks are the only ones who cannot multiclass without penalty.

The way I like to do it, which I first saw with the FR setting, is specific orders of Paladins or Monks.

That way, you chose an order in which there is another class or two into which you can multiclass without penalties.

For example: A Paladin of Mystra (Goddess of Magic) can freely multiclass as a Wizard.

Monks of the Old Order can freely multiclass in any other class so long as their monk level is higher.

This is a simple way to allow multiclassing for Paladin and Monks (and maybe even others if you want real specifics) without complicated systems.
Nethicus
08-13-04, 11:31 AM Going just by the core rules, Paladins and Monks are the only ones who cannot multiclass without penalty.

Right, which made little sense when we were discussing it here. A wizard has to continually do research (the reasoning for getting 2 new free spells a level). A druid/cleric both have divine aspects, which open up their understanding of higher mysteries as they grow in power. Taking time off working on your fighting skills or roguish aspects detracts from the time you spend exploring nature or meditating and praying to your particular divine source.

When you take that break, you, in essence, have to play catch up. Which is why we put in the 1/5th experience penalty. The further removed from a subject you are, the more time you have to spend "relearning" and the more time you have to spend "researching" the new stuff.

Rogues, fighters, barbarians, bards and sorcerers are memory-skills, and as most campaigns have their characters travelling and battling, their fighting skills are always honed. Sorcerers and bards are inherent spellcasters, so their powers do not require constant study. So we decided all of these classes would not be interrupted if another class was taken.

It's a little more complicated, but it alleviates the paladin/monk restriction, and adds a little more complexity to the role of mutliclassing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nethicus 08-12-04, 09:25 AM	Non-related class penalties: Some classes require more discipline and focus than others. Classes like the monk and the paladin bar a character from advancing should they multiclass. Instead of such a rigid course of action, characters are penalized for diverting their classes from their major course of study, but after they “catch up” with their class, they can freely advance, even with other “non-permitted” classes. Lower levels are easier to overcome with penalties, as the lower mysteries of a class are not as complex as the higher mysteries. Classes which are "disciplined" and experience a non-related class penalty are cleric, druid, monk, paladin, ranger, and wizard. Related classes must fit with the general form of the class. A cleric who takes a few levels of paladins does not suffer the non-related class penalty, nor does a paladin experience a non-related penalty for taking a level of cleric. Presitge classes are evaluated by the DM to determine if they are related or non-related. Clerics can freely multiclass as paladins and vice versa. Druids can freely multiclass as rangers and vice versa. Monks and wizards cannot multiclass with a core class without suffering a non-related class penalty. Fighers, Bards, Rogues and Sorcerers do not have non-related classes. If a character takes a new level in a class that is regarded as a “non-related” class, the new level(s) incur a penalty should the character ever advance in that previous class again. The penalty is 1/5th of the total experience in the non-related classes. This penalty is a wholly separate amount from the character’s total experience, and it lingers until it is paid. The penalty only applies should the character decide to advance in the class that incurred the non-related penalty. For example, Brick, the 3rd level fighter, has been blessed by the temple of the God of Justice, and he decides to take 1 level of paladin. Fighter is a non-related class to paladin, but as those levels were taken first, and fighter has no non-related classes, there is no penalty. Davros the Mighty, the 3rd level paladin, has decided to become a more efficient killing machine by picking up two levels in fighter, and the corresponding feats. After the two levels of fighter, Davros returns to follow the path of the paladin. Davros’ fighter levels are 4th and 5th, a total of 9000 experience. One-fifth of that total is 1800 xp. Before Davros can proceed on the path of paladin, he must pay 1800 xp to remove the penalty. So Davros needs a total of 10800 xp to reach 6th level, and his total experience at 6th level will still be 15,000. The 1800 xp is a penalty paid in blood sweat and tears and, once applied to the penalty, cannot be used for anything else, such as magical item creation. Sherman the Monk has 6 levels in the martial class. However, he has become disillusioned with the class, and now pursues the class of rogue, picking up two levels in the thiefly arts. Sherman must pay a penalty of 1/5th of 13,000 experience (2600 xp) if he ever wants to be a monk again. However, as Sherman has cast that life aside, he doesn’t have to pay the penalty unless he wants to pick up another level in monk. Velo the Wizard has 9 levels in wizard has decided to pursue 2 levels of fighter. Fighter is a non-related class for Velo. Velo has 45000 total experience, plus 2000 he’s paid towards the penalty of 3800 for his two levels of fighter, when he gets the full blast of dragon breath. He is raised by the cleric and loses a level, dropping him down to halfway between the last level, 40,500 xp. Velo loses a level in wizard. As Velo wants to gain more levels in wizard, he must pay the remainder of the penalty (1800 xp) before accumulating experience back towards 11th level. -------------------------------- Any comments?
Nethicus 08-12-04, 11:03 PM	Any comments?
Mitchell 08-13-04, 02:35 AM	Well, you forgot about the poor barbarian. :( Now, as to the heart of the matter... Where do standard multiclassing penalties fit in here? If a 6th level 1/2 orc paladin decides to take a level or two as a fighter, are they penalized for both the "non-related class" and the fact that neither are a favored class? If so, is the XP penalty for one calculated on the modified XP needed because of the other? The Forgotten Realms has a system in place for multi-classing paladins. Everyone has a patron diety, and depending on the diety you choose, you can multi-class with one or more other classes with no penalty. You could rig up something similar using the Greyhawk dieties in the PHB. The monk, if I remember correctly (not much of a monk man) isn't as restricted... At least they can keep their abilities, even if they can no longer advance. The biggest problem that I have with what you presented are the arguable "related classes". Why does a paladin have to be associated with a cleric, and not a fighter. I'm getting ready to crank up a 1/2 orc paladin who is far more capable in combat than with spells and turning (17 str, 12 wis and cha). Yet I look here and see that my holy warrior is more akin to a cleric than a fighter... Don't tell him that ;) . Same with a ranger. And why isn't the druid associated with the cleric? They're both priests, and depending on the pantheon you could have it both ways. Personally, I don't see myself as a champion for your cause, but maybe with a bit of work...
Nethicus 08-13-04, 10:30 AM	Well, you forgot about the poor barbarian. Yes I did. But he's like the fighter, no non-related class penalties. They're easy to forget. :) The Forgotten Realms has a system in place for multi-classing paladins. Yes it does, and this mimics that system to an extent, as the multi-classing is diety dependent. It can be said that paladins are more interesting in following a spirtual martial path, and any deviation from the spiritual bans them from ever going back. I had a problem with "barring" someone from a class if they did not deserve barring, so I came up with this alternative. If you feel paladins should also mutli freely as fighters, fine. House-rule it. This idea is up for general use and should be world-dependent. I just don't see how a monk who picks up a level of fighter for extra feats can never progress as a monk again. Now, as to the heart of the matter... Where do standard multiclassing penalties fit in here? If a 6th level 1/2 orc paladin decides to take a level or two as a fighter, are they penalized for both the "non-related class" and the fact that neither are a favored class? If so, is the XP penalty for one calculated on the modified XP needed because of the other? The favored classes were presented to balance the advantages some races have over humans, detailing that some races have a natural aptitude towards specific classes. As a result, the penalty would be enforced for the non-related class as well as for the two non-favored classes. Of course, the 1/2 orc paladin would be able to go back to being a paladin after picking up the fighter class. If you instituted a house rule stating that paladins could freely multi as fighters and clerics, he wouldn't have to worry about that. I currently play a paladin who's quite martial in this campaign setting with this rule. He's human, and picking up some cleric levels still pursues the spiritual path the paladin devoted himself to. However, even with a martial aspect, abandoning the spiritual for pure combat skills does not mesh with the concept of paladin, so the fighter, regrettably, was pushed into a non-related class for paladin. That was our reasoning.
CzarGarrett 08-13-04, 11:21 AM	Going just by the core rules, Paladins and Monks are the only ones who cannot multiclass without penalty. The way I like to do it, which I first saw with the FR setting, is specific orders of Paladins or Monks. That way, you chose an order in which there is another class or two into which you can multiclass without penalties. For example: A Paladin of Mystra (Goddess of Magic) can freely multiclass as a Wizard. Monks of the Old Order can freely multiclass in any other class so long as their monk level is higher. This is a simple way to allow multiclassing for Paladin and Monks (and maybe even others if you want real specifics) without complicated systems.
Nethicus 08-13-04, 11:31 AM	Going just by the core rules, Paladins and Monks are the only ones who cannot multiclass without penalty. Right, which made little sense when we were discussing it here. A wizard has to continually do research (the reasoning for getting 2 new free spells a level). A druid/cleric both have divine aspects, which open up their understanding of higher mysteries as they grow in power. Taking time off working on your fighting skills or roguish aspects detracts from the time you spend exploring nature or meditating and praying to your particular divine source. When you take that break, you, in essence, have to play catch up. Which is why we put in the 1/5th experience penalty. The further removed from a subject you are, the more time you have to spend "relearning" and the more time you have to spend "researching" the new stuff. Rogues, fighters, barbarians, bards and sorcerers are memory-skills, and as most campaigns have their characters travelling and battling, their fighting skills are always honed. Sorcerers and bards are inherent spellcasters, so their powers do not require constant study. So we decided all of these classes would not be interrupted if another class was taken. It's a little more complicated, but it alleviates the paladin/monk restriction, and adds a little more complexity to the role of mutliclassing.