Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sooperspook 11-18-04, 03:12 AM	There is no real reason for this change other than i thought it might be cool. It is exactly the same except for the following. When first gaining access to wild shape the druid must choose a number of animals equal to his Wisdom bonus. When taking the form of said animals the druid doesnt take the physical ability scores of the animal. instead his own scores are modified. If the druid belonged to a race that has physical ability modifiers then these modifiers are lost before applying the animal form modifiers. Changes to Con do not alter the druids hit points but they do alter the Fort save mods. eg: Badger Str -2 Dex +6 Con +4. Black Bear Str +8 Dex+2 Con +4 Eagle Dex +4 Con +2 so wat does everyone think?
Harzerkatze 11-18-04, 05:17 AM	I'm not too positive on that suggestion. It increases power but reduces versatility. Power increases since PCs always have stats higher than average (ofen much more than average). Versatility decreses because the druid suddenly only has a handful of forms, most of which will be the various bears of apes, for combat reasons. I think the druids wildshape is sort of ok the way it is, except for the fact that you get no EX qualities (so bats are probably really blind as bats) and that you get HP from CON changes, which should be changed, as you did.
MaverickWolf 11-18-04, 07:28 AM	Actually, it increases power, but leaves versatility the same. The animals chosen are simply the only animals that you apply the modifiers from instead of taking the average of. You still have access to other forms, but you get their average scores. At least that's how I read it. I'd say go for it, but I just go with modifiers automatically anyway (including for polymorph[/i[ and [i]shapechange. I've seen these abilities used and watching them increase one or two scores while decreasing others, just because a chara had good stats from good rolls. It's not supposed to penalize you so much.
Zhab 11-18-04, 08:44 AM	Well I must admite that I always had a problem with average stats stuff. Take human for example, 10,10,10,10,10,10.... So we all have the same str, dex, con, int, wis and cha ? Save rare few exception that have stats above average AND SOME BELOW ? Come on ! We all know that every one is diffrent regardless of if they're "heros/adventurer" or not. True, heros will tend to be above average. Doesn't mean that average peoples all shares identical stats. I personaly use a weaker roll metode that give weaker stats for average ppl. That said, we can transforme pretty much into anything while using a spell like polymorph right ? Than why every one "chose" to transforme into a average version of that creature ? I mean, why not transforming into a musculated version or a weak venerable old one ? You can't do much about your mental score and we could wonder about dex as well. But as for str and con it TOTALY depend on your physical shape WHICH YOU CAN NOW CHOOSE !!! So why transforming into only average stuff ? The reason must lie in balance and not in logic. Because other wise it appear ok with me to be capable of "chosing" your str and con to a certain extend when transforming. This can cause may arguing about how far you can go and bla bla. So I use a special concept of mine. When you transforme, you transforme into what you would have been should you have been born as a member of that race instead (regarding stats). So it work as sooperspook said. You trade your current stats modifier (if any) with the new one for the duration of the transformation. Also, that way every one don't end up with the same damn stats when transforming. For me this is just as silly as having all humans save few have 10s for stats. This concept may sound weird, but if you look at movies (including cartoons and animes) where their is transformations, their alternated form usualy "look" a bit like their previous form. If they were very muscular, they tranform into a musculated beast. If they was fat, they transforme into a fat beast. etc. Sometime, their normal form look like their alternated one. This shows that many authors (not speaking of dnds authors) share this conception of transformation. That is why I belive sooperspook's idea is cool and not wicked at all. I have gone even farter... I have extend this to any shape the druids takes... because that's how transformations work in my games. But then again, I'm really not a concervative and don't hesitate to modify rules. For me they appear as what wizards say they are... which is suggested guide lines open to any modifications to better suite your games and style. But many people see them as stone engraved rules that cannot be changed no matter what. Even when the rules are totaly illogical. Those people look silly when those rules are finaly modified by erreta or new editions... lol. Sorry, got a bit carried away here. But I feel better... lol. My point ? Your idea isn't unbalancing at all, it's logic and should be extended to all transformation and not just the shape ability of druids.
sooperspook 11-18-04, 09:29 AM	Thanks guys. Always good to get feedback. Well i was going with the idea that a druid wold have just a few forms to choose from and , of course, the druid would have to be familliar with the animals to choose them. And when he gains new Wildshape size cats he can choose new forms. i tend to think that verssitility (sp?) is more powerful than allowing modifiers. I was thinking pretty much the same way Zhab was, that is , if a big buffed druid turned into a wolf, why wouldnt he turn into a big buffed wolf? anyway, to those that think this is a bit too powerful. how would you limit it? maybe a chnce that the druid takes the mental stats as well? maybe the longer they stay in another form the more animal like they get? altough i dont know how that would be done mechanincs wise. all ideas welcome... and thanks again
Zhab 11-19-04, 04:44 PM	Whatever you do... taking the mental stats is like saying trading your mind for a usual mind of that anymal type... So you no longer think as a human but as say a wolf. This also logicaly mean losing every mental related abilities gain as a human (or whatever race you had) and gain the mental related abilities of the animal instead. Trading that ways, skills, feats and extraordinary abilities. This also mean that you forgot how to transform. But worst of all, you would give up all class levels !!! Trading mental abilities is for me way out of it... After thinking about it in detail, I don't think restrainning druids ability to transforme is a good idea. I mean it's already restrain to animals and that is enough. Whenever you modify something, you must be very careful. You must figure out why thing was made that way, what goal you aim by changing the rule, why are you changing it, what change will it make, how will it affact the mechanic, how it will affect balance and is it logic ? I gone threw that process and it doesn't seem like a good idea. However, it isn't that much of a bad idea either. As for keeping score and trading race mods. It seem like a good idea to me. It even seem logic to me. Applied to all transformations, it doesn't make the druid ability that much more powerful that it is right now. It's just difrent. It's easy to point out that already strong charecter will get even stronger when transformed. But few think the other way arround. The original rules alow a weak charecter become dramaticly more powerful when changing. Not only does he get cool race mod, but he also trade his crappy scores for average ones. Using my rules, he keep his low score. So the importance of having good physical score remain important even if you intend to transforme. Simply put, the original rules advantage weak charecter while disavantaging strong ones and our rules advantage strong charecter while disavantaging weak ones. I don't know about you, but the latter seem more logical to me. As for your idea of developing a kind of animal instinct by spending time in that animal form. Well I've done that as well in my games. However, you must spend HUGE amounth of times in that form. You don't learn the "way of the wolf" in two weak. I say the minimum is 1 year and only if you live with a band. Mechanic wise, it's done by gradualy gainning the animals special mental attributes. Skills, feats, extraordinary, etc. Like if you leave as a bat, you would eventualy figure out that sonar thing... otherwise you would be very clumsy... Of course it would take you some time and lots of try and failure.