Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Schmendrick 08-17-06, 03:56 PM	I've been designing a homebrew, and I'm reworking a few of the classes (mainly clerics, to better fit the flavor of my pantheon/cosmology), and I turned my attention to the Fighter. I prefer to make minimal changes (forementioned cleric transplant notwithstanding), so here's my suggestion: Fighters stay mostly the way they are, but fill its "dead" levels with: Combat Competence: At 3rd level, and every 6 levels thereafter (9th and 15th), a fighter becomes more at home in combat, gaining a +1 dodge bonus to armor class. Weapon Competence: Over time, a fighter becomes more proficient with the weapons he uses the most. At 5th level, and every 6 levels thereafter, a fighter chooses one weapon. He gains a +1 bonus on all damage rolls he makes using that weapon. The same weapon may be chosen more than once, and this bonus stacks with the bonus granted by the Weapon Specialization feats. Combat Luck: At 7th level, a fighter's combat experience provides him with an almost charmed proficiency. Once per day, he may reroll an attack or damage roll he has just made, or force an opponent to reroll an attack or damage roll just made against him. He must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. At 13th level, and every 6 levels thereafter, this ability may be used an additional time per day. edit(s): suggested refinements
Seerow 08-17-06, 04:09 PM	I have only one comment: what is 5rd and 7rd?
Schmendrick 08-17-06, 04:16 PM	The offspring of those elusive deities "Copy" and "Paste."
BlaineTog 08-17-06, 04:17 PM	Combat Luck: At 7rd level, a fighter's experience in combat provides him with an almost charmed proficiency in combat. Once per day, he may reroll an attack or damage roll he has just made, or force an opponent to reroll an attack or damage roll just made against him, before the game master declares the result of the roll. He must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. At 13th level, and every 6 levels thereafter, this ability may be used an additional time per day.So, why would he ever use that option then?
Schmendrick 08-17-06, 04:23 PM	Noted. Consider "before the DM declares" etc. to be stricken. Again, a casualty of copy/paste "I want to adhere to the existing standard wording." Just call me "Mr. 3.5 revision" :rolleyes:
LordPendragon 08-17-06, 04:43 PM	Looks useful, but not overpowered. It's not going to break your game, at least. Personally, I think that instead of further specializing in one weapon, you should allow the Fighter to choose certain "focused" weapons. A Fighter wielding a weapon of one of his focused types would gain the benefits of any Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Weapon Mastery, GWF, GWP, and Improved Critical feats he already has for another weapon, with that weapon.
Schmendrick 08-17-06, 05:11 PM	Looks useful, but not overpowered. It's not going to break your game, at least. Personally, I think that instead of further specializing in one weapon, you should allow the Fighter to choose certain "focused" weapons. A Fighter wielding a weapon of one of his focused types would gain the benefits of any Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Weapon Mastery, GWF, GWP, and Improved Critical feats he already has for another weapon, with that weapon. Personally, I like using UA's "Weapon Proficiency Groups" variant, at least as it pertains to "choose a weapon" feats/abilities. (I keep the simple/martial/exotic system for actual proficiencies; it's easier that way, and it keeps weirdness like warhammer wielding wizards at bay.)
Tony Vargas 08-17-06, 05:18 PM	I'd consider making 'Combat Luck' a save bonus, instead. I never much cared for Weapon specialization - can't some fighters just be good with many weapons? :shrug:
Szatany 08-17-06, 05:42 PM	This variant is quite elegant, very minimal, and not "fix" at all.
Schmendrick 08-17-06, 05:50 PM	I'd consider making 'Combat Luck' a save bonus, instead. Maybe I named it poorly; the mechanic is the same as Luck, but it's supposed to represent "being really good" at combat, not actual luck or any kind of magical/supernatural ability (which is generally how I perceive save bonuses). Can anyone think of a better name for it (Combat Mastery, maybe)? And, is there an elegant way to include grapple checks, str/dex checks made for trip/disarm attempts, and the like? That said, some kind of save bonus might be in order. Fighters have classically had weak saves, so it should probably be pretty minor. Perhaps +1 unnamed bonus to a single save of your choice every 6 (or 5) levels? I never much cared for Weapon specialization - can't some fighters just be good with many weapons? :shrug: It probably wouldn't hurt to call it "Martial Insight" or something and let it apply to all weapon damage rolls. Szatany: I realize it's minimal, and that most (myself included) believe the fighter needs a fairly large power boost, but what, specifically, would you recommend/change? "It doesn't work" isn't very helpful. Obviously, I had a few goals in my change: I wanted to keep things extremely generic, so that the Fighter can be built into pretty much any kind of combat specialist desired (as the core class is intended, and more or less accomplishes). I wanted to keep it extraordinary (as opposed to supernatural/magical). And I wanted to eliminate "dead levels," to avoid the classically cliche'd "Fighter is only worth 2 or 4 levels, depending on whether you want Specialization or not" deal.
Szatany 08-17-06, 06:09 PM	I'm honestly tired of making new fighters, so I can suggest 3 things: use my ultimate fighter, use K's fighter in races of war, but toned down, or use fighter variant in thread (IIRC) fighter needs more feats, take 2, or something.
Seerow 08-17-06, 06:16 PM	I'm honestly tired of making new fighters, so I can suggest 3 things: use my ultimate fighter, use K's fighter in races of war, but toned down, or use fighter variant in thread (IIRC) fighter needs more feats, take 2, or something. "Fighter Discussion Thread v2.0 (Used to be Fighter Needs More Feats)"
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-17-06, 06:23 PM	This stuff doens't fix anything. The fighter doesn't need more bonuses, he needs counters to magic stuff. Here's the stuff you need to beat in core alone: -Maze -Forcecage -Wall of Force -Web -Solid Fog -Otto's Irresistable Dance -Blasphemy, Holy Word, Dictum, Word of Chaos series -Invisibility (specifically greater invis) -Flight That's where the fighter is lacking. If he can beat all those things then he is actually decent.
Tony Vargas 08-17-06, 06:32 PM	That said, some kind of save bonus might be in order. Fighters have classically had weak saves, so it should probably be pretty minor. Perhaps +1 unnamed bonus to a single save of your choice every 6 (or 5) levels?Actually, classically (as in 1&2E, the fighter had so-so saves at very low level, but quickly gained the best saves in the game). A scaling save bonus (to REF and/or WILL) would fit that well. It probably wouldn't hurt to call it "Martial Insight" or something and let it apply to all weapon damage rolls.Nod. It's a small bonus, it wouldn't hurt, and it'd stack with actual Specialization (right?). Obviously, I had a few goals in my change: I wanted to keep things extremely generic, so that the Fighter can be built into pretty much any kind of combat specialist desired (as the core class is intended, and more or less accomplishes). I wanted to keep it extraordinary (as opposed to supernatural/magical). Good goals. The elegance of the fighter class design is in making all the class abilities feats. Adding non-feat class abilities mars that, but it could be worth it. And I wanted to eliminate "dead levels," to avoid the classically cliche'd "Fighter is only worth 2 or 4 levels, depending on whether you want Specialization or not" deal.Well, there's changing the feat progression from 1st +1/2, to "every level you don't get a feat" which'd be every level not divisible by 3, except first. That kills the 1-level dip, and fills in the 'dead' levels (the new dead levels aren't that dead, in that you get the regular feat for leveling at each of them - so a fighter 20 has 20 feats). It retains the 'just feats' choice/elegance of the fighter. And it's quite modest (1 less feat at first, ultimately netting a gain of 2 feats). A way of addressing the save weakness (remember, fighters used to have excellent saves), and 'dead levels' would be to add a scaling save bonus at each dead level - leading with either a REF or a WILL bonus (player choice) at 5th, and the other at 7th, incrementing each 6 levels thereafter. A net +3 bonus to REF and WILL at 20th, which splits the difference between good and poor saves.
Solik 08-17-06, 06:45 PM	As stated above, this doesn't fix anything. The fighter's already plenty good at hitting things. The problem is that, due to a variety of spells and tricks available to casters, hitting things becomes obsolete later on. Potential, simple fixes can include: * Bonuses at higher levels vs spells and spell-like effects. Choose the bonuses carefully. Saves are nice, but some spells don't allow them. SR is nice if it's big enough, but there's ways through it. DR vs magic damage isn't particularly effective, since it's not the damage spells that cause problems. * New abilities to counter magic. This can include such fun things as making attack rolls to reflect enemy spells back at them and the ability to make saves even if the spell normally does not allow for it. * Recognize that D&D is not a PVP game and adjust monsters and encounters appropriately. Give your higher-level monsters antimagic shields, magic immunity, or the ability to blast spell slots from casters from a distance without allowing a save (the latter are particularly effective in groups). * Force far more encounters per day than usual (using time restraints, planar binding, etc) and close magic loopholes your party may be abusing (particularly plane-shifting to timeless planes to rest and return with specifically-prepared full spell lists). Please do not waste time "fixing" anything below level ten. Really, it's mostly pretty good. If you're worried too much about clerics and druids overshadowing the fighter at the mid-range low levels (heh), then nerf them instead -- revoke the cleric's heavy armor and weaken the druid's natural spell feat, or use my Priest cleric alternative (see sig). Sufficient encounters per day make that unnecessary, however. If none of that appeals to you, just give Fighters 4 SP and Use Magic Device as a class skill and call it a day.
Szatany 08-17-06, 06:56 PM	Please do not waste time "fixing" anything below level ten. Really, it's mostly pretty good. Actually, there is one thing below level 10 that could use some tweaking, and that's fighter's skill list.
Solik 08-17-06, 07:12 PM	Does it really need it? Fighters dominate combat at low levels, and at higher levels, they can just magic-item the skills they want. People who want to play skillful fighters really should just go for the Swashbuckler (which, btw, could use the same sorts of late-game tweaks as the Fighter vs magic).
Schmendrick 08-17-06, 07:15 PM	Ok, how about: Combat Avoidance (3rd land every 6): +1 dodge bonus and +1 to Ref Combat Savvy (7th and every 6): 1 "combat luck" use, +1 Will ?
LordPendragon 08-17-06, 07:18 PM	Wow... and the save bonuses actually match the name and the other ability granted. I'd say that means it's fate.
Tony Vargas 08-17-06, 08:50 PM	As stated above, this doesn't fix anything. The fighter's already plenty good at hitting things. The problem is that, due to a variety of spells and tricks available to casters, hitting things becomes obsolete later on.That's really only valid if the opposition always has casters, and your side doesn't. In a reasonable party, hitting things doesn't become obsolete at high levels anymore than casting was pointless at low levels. * Bonuses at higher levels vs spells and spell-like effects.Not unreasonable. Choose the bonuses carefully. Saves are nice, but some spells don't allow them. SR is nice if it's big enough, but there's ways through it. I don't think outright immunity is required. Better saves are, well, better. SR would have to be some sort of supernatural ability and is a little out of character for the fighter. * New abilities to counter magic. This can include such fun things as making attack rolls to reflect enemy spells back at them and the ability to make saves even if the spell normally does not allow for it.That's a little out there, but I could see it working in some games. It'd be SU. Make more sense as a feat, probably. Recognize that D&D is not a PVP game and adjust monsters and encounters appropriately. :clap: That, alone, solves many of the percieved problems with the fighter. Force far more encounters per day than usual (using time restraints, planar binding, etc)What's 'far more' 2-6 encounters per day (average 4) should be fine - if they're varied encounters, at least some of which are decidedly not on the players' terms, and they're not all telegraphed. and close magic loopholes your party may be abusing (particularly plane-shifting to timeless planes to rest and return with specifically-prepared full spell lists).Of course.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-17-06, 10:44 PM	This variant delivers. It makes fighters less "vanilla," but doesn't really bind them to anything really specific. It's all the things they should be getting.
DarknessEternal 08-18-06, 12:33 AM	These things are already easily attainable through bonus feats. As such, it's pretty much unnecessary. I can only assume you haven't read PHB2, there's no reason to even think about mucking with Fighters after that.
IbanezNinja 08-18-06, 01:07 AM	I can only assume you haven't read PHB2, there's no reason to even think about mucking with Fighters after that. Besides the fact that the PHB2 didn't actually solve any of the fighter's real problems.
Manic Man 08-18-06, 02:18 AM	Bah, fix the fighter? thats simple. Bring back called shots and base it off BAB and bring back attack by attack parrying. If not, bring back THAC0 and the old save tables from 2e! :invasion:
Schmendrick 08-18-06, 03:27 AM	I can only assume you haven't read PHB2, there's no reason to even think about mucking with Fighters after that. Nope. Haven't read the PHB2, actually. Flipped through it ever-so-slightly, no real examining. So, here's the current suggestion: Practiced Avoidance: At 3rd level, and every 6 levels thereafter (9th and 15th), a fighter becomes increasingly adept at avoiding the dangers of combat, gaining a +1 dodge bonus to armor class, and a +1 bonus to reflex saves. Weapon Competence: Through extensive training, a fighter learns to strike with more force and precision. At 5th level he adds +1 to all weapon damage rolls. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level, and again to +3 at 17th. Combat Savvy: At 7th level, a fighter becomes utterly confident in combat, and with good reason; he has mastered it. He gains a +1 bonus to Will saves. In addition, once per day, he may reroll an attack or damage roll he has just made, or force an opponent to reroll an attack or damage roll just made against him. He must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. At 13th level, and every 6 levels thereafter, this ability may be used an additional time per day, and his bonus to Will saves increases by another +1. edit: yet another stupid copy/paste casualty
DarknessEternal 08-18-06, 09:39 AM	Besides the fact that the PHB2 didn't actually solve any of the fighter's real problems. Fighters do not have any problems. See how effective cryptic and non-supported statements are? At least mine is true.
DragonRg6 08-18-06, 10:32 AM	The issue for fighters appears to be overcoming high-level spell effects, which could simply be solved by not having a party consisting of a single fighter. Call me old-fashioned, but does anyone else remember the days when the party had such things as a Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, and so forth in its ranks?
Clawhound 08-18-06, 12:43 PM	Many things could be solved by giving a fighter SR based on his level. I don't know how to make that work, but it gives a fighter a good reason to STAY a fighter and the ability to counter many kinds of spells. The fighter should get an institutional AC akin to the Dualist. The fighter should always be better off in armor, but if you want to make a fencer, then you have the built in AC for that, too. Again, this gives you a reason to stay a fighter, and an ability to operate in a low-magic/no-magic environment without getting shafted. All spells producing force effects or "solid" anything should have hit points and DR. That's a flaw in the spells, not a flaw with fighter. Completely rewrite spells to work WITH the rules set rather than outside the rules set. Some spells, like "invisibility" should provide "hide" bonuses while "fly" should be a much higher level.
DragonRg6 08-18-06, 01:07 PM	I truly feel that if we give the fighter the ability to overcome obstacles such as spells and spellcasters freely, we're going to suddenly find a lot of calls that the fighter is now overpowered. See, the point of a party is that perhaps each individual can't do everything. Maybe the fighter isn't godlike in its ability to overcome high level spells. You know why? Because it IS godlike in its ability to master just about anything in basic physical combat at high level. We could just as well say "Help! The Wizard can't take as much hit point damage as the fighter! Quick! Give it higher hit dice and an inherent boost to constitution" as say "The fighter is a weak option because it can't overcome spells cast by high-level wizards". The idea is that the group works together to overcome challenges - things just get dull if one character can shamelessly master any situation. So a Wall of Force - no, let's say a Forcecage - has immobilized the fighter. What do you do? Well, if we want the fighter to be able to do everything, then we'd give the Forcecage hit points and hardness, and he'd tear his way out before going and mincing the erring spellcaster. However, if you're playing with the basic rules, a simpler, quicker, and more teamwork-orientated option is open to you: GET THE PARTY WIZARD TO DISINTEGRATE IT. Believe me, the reason the fighter is not deific in its ability to overcome all else is because your party is not supposed to consist of a lonely, single fighter, battling against all odds with his +2 Shocking Burst Longsword. You're supposed to work as a team, not have one character batter through all the opposition single-handed. Try having a group with more than one character, and ideally more than one class (try some spellcasters, for a change), and swiftly the fighter becomes far more effective and survivable at high levels. And don't get me started on the value of buff spells, as Enlarge Person and Whirlwind Attack as a combination is just the tip of the iceberg.
Tony Vargas 08-18-06, 01:13 PM	So, here's the current suggestionThis is looking pretty good. The bonuses are modest enough that they shouldn't be too imbalancing, even if the premise that the fighter is a bit weak is incorrect, but they do give the fighter a boost. Enough of a boost, for isntance, for the 20th level fighter to slightly out-damage the 20th level Raging barb (+7 vs +6 for a two-handed weapon; +7 vs +4 for one-handed), while having a +5 AC (holding other sources of AC equal, which is unlikely in the first place) relative to the barb (+3 vs -2). Practiced Avoidance: Combat Savvy:I like the names. I once came up with something similar (they affect Initiative & REF saves; and skill checks & WILL saves, instead), but couldn't come up with good names (Battle Reflexes & Battle Discipline). At 5th level 9th level, and again to at 15th.You could change this one to 5th and every 6 levels thereafter, that would completely eliminate the fighter's 'dead levels.' Oh, another thing: the Combat Savvy re-roll is relatively minor, but it could be quite potent in the hands of a fighter with a very high AC (and these fighters do ultimately get a +3). If an opponent is hitting only on a 20, or, even only in the high teens, a re-rolled hit is very likely to become a miss. If the opponent is maxxing power attack (hit only on a 20, but hit /hard/) or hoping his 20/x4 weapon will end the fight early, forcing the re-roll of a 20 is a major advantage. Even against a high-AB opponent, this can make a big difference by negating the occassional lucky itterative attack.
DeVorn 08-18-06, 03:06 PM	At tenth level, these changes mean a +2 to AC, +1 to damage, and a once-a-day reroll. The last one will make an interesting impact, but the other two won't. They're free low-level feats. Good call on making the damage stack with Weapon Specialization, though. As for the complaints about a Fighter being fine as-is... Somewhere around level 8, the Fighter ceases to have any function in the party. You would be better off switching him out for a Cleric, who can do everything a Fighter can - and much more. Fighters don't need power so much as they need purpose. At the end of the day, the Fighter needs something around tenth level that makes the party say: "Man, are we glad we brought you!"
Schmendrick 08-18-06, 03:54 PM	I like the names. I once came up with something similar (they affect Initiative & REF saves; and skill checks & WILL saves, instead), but couldn't come up with good names (Battle Reflexes & Battle Discipline). I thought about adding initiative bonuses, and decided against it. That's kind of the Rogue's territory. As for the names, I'm glad you like them. I wasn't sure about them (and still aren't, really, but your positive assessment helps). You could change this one to 5th and every 6 levels thereafter, that would completely eliminate the fighter's 'dead levels.' Wait, what? I thought I covered all the bases. 3rd, 5th, and 7th, every 6 after... oh. Looks like copy/paste got me again (I was toying with changing the order the abilities came in, and only half-re-edited some). <goes to fix earlier post> Oh, another thing: the Combat Savvy re-roll is relatively minor, but it could be quite potent in the hands of a fighter with a very high AC (and these fighters do ultimately get a +3). If an opponent is hitting only on a 20, or, even only in the high teens, a re-rolled hit is very likely to become a miss. If the opponent is maxxing power attack (hit only on a 20, but hit /hard/) or hoping his 20/x4 weapon will end the fight early, forcing the re-roll of a 20 is a major advantage. Even against a high-AB opponent, this can make a big difference by negating the occassional lucky itterative attack. Well, yeah. That's why it's a rather limited number of times per day. Plus it helps mitigate the slightly silly aspect of an everpresent 5% auto-hit and 5% auto-miss. Because sometimes (mainly in high level melee) that just doesn't make sense. At tenth level, these changes mean a +2 to AC, +1 to damage, and a once-a-day reroll. The last one will make an interesting impact, but the other two won't. They're free low-level feats. Good call on making the damage stack with Weapon Specialization, though. Aye; they're essentially free low-level feats, but they're feats that, thematically, the fighter "should" be getting anyway, and granting him this stuff leaves his other feat slots open for more tactics-type stuff (or for greater specialization through Dodge/Expertise/Weapon Focus/Specialization/etc.)
Schmendrick 08-18-06, 04:05 PM	Oh, and I agree that the fighter isn't necessarily as underpowered as many say he is. Yes, arcane casters dominate higher level play. But even they can't act alone (at least, not in an extended capacity). High level combat casting basically takes two forms: artillery (whether actual damage conjurations/evocations, or save-or-dies, or whatever) and battlefield control. Both are significantly weaker without melee allies: the artillery needs to be safely behind the protection of a sword (or halberd, or spear, or axe, or...) to keep from being cut down like a blade of grass when the shock troops come pouring in (d-door isn't a perfect solution, and you can't cast it all day long in any case), and controlling a battlefield will never grant you victory unless you have at least one of your own soldiers on it. Melee fighters will always be necessary, and while you can usually use a cleric (or clerics) in that role, the fighter and the barbarian should be better at it.