Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Puppetmaster 02-01-07, 04:28 PM	Hello all. I've seen some fighter "fixes" as of late on these boards, and I felt like adding my two cents. I love Tome of Battle, but I don't want to shoehorn the fighter into taking manuevers. By making the fighter more versatile, the option to take stances and manuevers is there, since more feats are now open. It's not a forced choice however, between taking the neccessary fighter feats everyone always does, or being unique. So far from what I've seen, every fighter takes the certain weapons feats, and what I'm shooting for is versatility. You'll notice that the feats levels are reversed. This allows me to give the fighter all of the "fighter feats" where there would've been dead levels, and still leave all the normal feats to make each fighter different from each other. Now Fighter A, B, C, and D don't have to be clones. My (almost) core (phb2 incl.) attempt at fighter: Fighter Alignment: Any Hit Die d10. Class Skills The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str). Skill Points at First Level (4 + Int modifier) x4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level 4 + Int modifier Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special AC Bonus 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus Feat, Weapon Aptitude +0 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Weapon Focus, Combat Reflexes 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Bonus Feat, Combat Training 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Weapon Specialization 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat +1 6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Elusive Attack 7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat, DR 1/- 8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Melee Weapon Mastery 9th +9 +6 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Greater Weapon Focus, DR 2/- +2 11th +11 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 12th +12 +8 +4 +4 Greater Weapon Specialization 13th +13 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat, DR 3/- 14th +14 +9 +4 +4 Counter Attack 15th +15 +9 +5 +5 Bonus Feat, Mettle +3 16th +16 +10 +5 +5 Overpowering Attack, DR 4/- 17th +17 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 18th +18 +11 +6 +6 Weapon Supremacy 19th +19 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat, DR 5/- 20th +20 +12 +6 +6 Unknown Capstone +4 Class Features All of the following are class features of the fighter. Weapon and Armor Proficiency A fighter is proficient with all simple, and martial weapons, and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields). Combat Training (Ex) At 3rd level, a fighter can select one of two combat options to study: exotic or finesse. If the fighter selects exotic, he is treated as having the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the fighter selects finesse, he is treated as having the Weapon Finesse feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. AC Bonus (Ex) As the fighter gains levels, he becomes battle-hardened and more resilient. The fighter gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five fighter levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC also apply against touch attacks or when the fighter is flat-footed. He does not lose these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless. Damage Reduction (Ex) At 7th level, a fighter gains Damage Reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage the fighter takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. At 10th level, and every three fighter levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th level), this damage reduction rises by 1 point. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0. Bonus Feats At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat every two fighter levels thereafter (3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats. Unknown Capstone Ability (Ex) At 20th level, the fighter gets a capstone ability. Revision to this area to be made soon.
Grod_The_Giant 02-01-07, 05:58 PM	you need to list all the abilities...and maybe fix the AC bonus colum.
The_Puppetmaster 02-01-07, 06:11 PM	I don't think I'm allowed to list all of the abilities. CoC and all. Weapon Aptitude is from ToB: Bo9S, taken because any fighter should be able to switch what weapon all of those feats affects. Elusive Attack, Counter Atack, and Overpowering Attack are all from the Expanded Fighter section of the PHB2. I made up Weapon Perfection. And I can't seem to get that AC bonus part of the chart to line up. Any more input, please?:D
aelryinth 02-01-07, 06:53 PM	Hello all. I've seen some fighter "fixes" as of late on these boards, and I felt like adding my two cents. I love Tome of Battle, but I don't want to shoehorn the fighter into taking manuevers. By making the fighter more versatile, the option to take stances and manuevers is there, since more feats are now open. It's not a forced choice however, between taking the neccessary fighter feats everyone always does, or being unique. So far from what I've seen, every fighter takes the certain weapons feats, and what I'm shooting for is versatility. You'll notice that the feats levels are reversed. This allows me to give the fighter all of the "fighter feats" where there would've been dead levels, and still leave all the normal feats to make each fighter different from each other. Now Fighter A, B, C, and D don't have to be clones. My (almost) core (phb2 incl.) attempt at fighter: Fighter Alignment: Any Hit Die d10. Class Skills The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). Skill Points at First Level (4 + Int modifier) x4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level 4 + Int modifier Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special AC Bonus 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus Feat, Weapon Aptitude +0 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Weapon Focus, Combat Reflexes +0 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Bonus Feat +0 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Weapon Specialization +0 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat +1 6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Elusive Attack +1 7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat +1 8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Melee Weapon Mastery +1 9th +9 +6 +3 +3 Bonus Feat +1 10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Greater Weapon Focus +2 11th +11 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat +2 12th +12 +8 +4 +4 Greater Weapon Specialization +2 13th +13 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat +2 14th +14 +9 +4 +4 Counter Attack +2 15th +15 +9 +5 +5 Bonus Feat +3 16th +16 +10 +5 +5 Overpowering Attack +3 17th +17 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat +3 18th +18 +11 +6 +6 Weapon Supremacy +3 19th +19 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat +3 20th +20 +12 +6 +6 Weapon Perfection +4 Class Features All of the following are class features of the fighter. Weapon and Armor Proficiency A fighter is proficient with all simple, and martial weapons, one exotic weapon (of the player’s choice, chosen at 1st level), and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields). AC Bonus (Ex) As the fighter gains levels, he learns to become more proficient in using his armor to deflect blows. The fighter gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five fighter levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC do not apply against touch attacks or when the fighter is flat-footed. However, he does not lose these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, provided he is wearing his armor. Bonus Feats At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat every two fighter levels thereafter (3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats. Weapon Perfection (Ex) At 20th level, the fighter’s bonuses to attack and/or damage rolls via his Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialist, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialist, Melee Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy feats are all increased by +1. Let me know of any changes i can make. Thanks! I seem to be inspiring personal remakes. This is fine...every DM has a different idea for what they want the Fighter to do. COmments: Basic Chassis: This is fine. Feat equivalents: Exactly 23. The AC bonus needs to be addressed...they get it when immobilized, but not when flat footed? Makes no sense...they're Held and keep it, but when suprised they don't? I rate the scaling Armor bonus as worth 2 feats. Note that this doesn't address one of the great Fighter weaknesses at high levels...their touch AC. You stuck in the PHB abilities in the off levels, and let them not have to pay for the Spec Tree. Good basic fix. Play Versatility: None. Standard build versatility, but still one orientation. No ability to swap around feats/manuvers for different tactical situations. Expanded skills help some. Skill List: Survival? Scaling: One scaling ability, tied to wearing armor. Thus, somewhat less powerful then the monk ability. It's not tied to an ability score, and thus is less powerful then an ability that is...but it's also guaranteed. However, it's not useful to a swashbuckler style character who wears no armor, since it's wording doesn't stack with bracers. Few feat Equivs: 23 feat equivs is way below a warblade, but a significant rise from Core Fighter. Also keeps missile prof and heavy armor, but with no House Rules for these concerning other classes they aren't worth a feat. Exotic Weapon Prof is a strange bonus feat at first level...I can see why you'd want it (bastard swords?) and to allow quick access to spiked chains or 'effective' weapons. But what if I want a UA fighter? Or a fencer? I don't need the prof...so it's wasted. Waste is something the Core Fighter does a lot of. Where's the defensive, automatic stuff the Fighter needs as he levels to remain viable? Remember, it's not all about doing damage. Without some form of escalating defense against magical effects, a Fighter has to rely on gear. The Warblade builds in a bonus to Reflex saves, and can grab some extremely potent save boosters. Capstone: Do you see this as an ability a 9th level spell can confer? If not, why are you devoting 20 levels of fighter to obtaining it? Also, the wording is strange. Do you mean he's now +7/+9 with his weapon (adding one to all his feats), or he's +5/+7? (+6 to one attack, take 11 on one blow, +2 AC) Effectively, +3/+3, +1 AC, maybe another +1 to hit equiv for a Full Attack. With one weapon. Not bad...if it's sufficient for you, then fine. But I'm leery of the Fighter capstone applying to just ONE weapon. He's the master of Fighting, remember, not just one weapon. The Warblade, in comparison, gets dual stances...not some super strike. So, you might want to think about this from a tactical, high level view, and not a kill the monster with my greatsword faster view. ======================= Again, this is just a comparison critique, meant to fuel thought. If you feel this makes the Fighter viable, more power to you. I'm just letting you know how it stacks up against the Warblade's design parameters. ==Aelryinth
Gideon_Gideonson 02-01-07, 07:05 PM	IMHO, the cap ability is fairly weak. You might want to consider something more powerful.
The_Puppetmaster 02-01-07, 07:28 PM	Aelryinth: You bring up quite a few good points. I am trying to balance fighter to warblade, without using maneuvers. I'll get to work on incorporating some of your ideas. However, I would like to point out one thing. But I'm leery of the Fighter capstone applying to just ONE weapon. He's the master of Fighting, remember, not just one weapon. That's why I put in weapon aptitude from ToB: Bo9S. You are correct in that there's no reason a fighter shouldn't be able to change what weapon those feats affect. Weapon Aptitude let's you change that, I believe. Will work on it. :D
The_Puppetmaster 02-01-07, 08:13 PM	FIRST POST REVISED Added: Scaling DR/-, Combat Training (for EWP or WF), Mettle (Bo9S) Changed: AC Bonus, Capstone (needs ideas / clarification) Even if I do somehow manage to make this fighter balanced with the warblade (or god forbid, a spellcaster), it seems that it would horribly unbalance Fighter vs. Ranger, Fighter vs. Barbarian, Fighter vs. alotofotherthings, etc. Wouldn't those classes need to be reworked as well, in order for them all to balance out? Rogues don't even get anything at 20. Anyway, in response to your post. I cant seem to get this: Play Versatility: None. Standard build versatility, but still one orientation. No ability to swap around feats/manuvers for different tactical situations. Expanded skills help some. or this: Capstone: Do you see this as an ability a 9th level spell can confer? to work the way I'd like them to without going into ToB: Bo9S territory. Any help on this? Thanks. :D
ContinuityLapse 02-01-07, 09:08 PM	If we're trying to match 9th level spells, how about: Genie (Su) At 20th level, the Fighter spontaneously gains awesome magical powers. Three times per day as a standard action, the Fighter can duplicate the effects of a wish spell. He still incurs the normal experience penalty for doing so. ...My point being that matching a Fighter's abilities to a Wizard or another full caster's isn't really appropriate. The Warblade is a better model here.
The_Puppetmaster 02-02-07, 11:46 AM	ContinuityLapse: That was cute... made me lol. :D AWESOME MAGICAL POWERS!!!!!!! Back on track, though. I revised the first post to include some things, but I'm still unsure how to include feat verstility, and/or capstone ability into my build. More help? ;)
aelryinth 02-02-07, 12:55 PM	The 'boxed' play versatility is in allowing wildcard feats...feats you can change every day. Note that Weapon Supremacy is, I believe, exempt from Weapon Adaptability/Versatility because of the Melee Weapon Mastery Requirement. You can't have more then one Supreme weapon. Your Capstone should sum up the view of the class from your perspective. My personal one is he gets to apply the Weapon Spec tree to all weapons he is proficient with, except for Weapon Supremacy. He is the master of any weapon he lays his hands on, but he is Supreme with but one. This brings him into general alignment with the Barbarian, and provides a subtle nudge to get that Unarmed proficiency, too. It also makes all those low level feats suddenly worth the hassle of picking them up. But, your view of the Fighter may well vary from mine. What do you see as every high level Fighter being capable of doing? Regardless of weapon they use/wield? Remember, archers are fighters, too. When you have something that applies to all of them, and it ROCKS, then you have a Capstone! ===Aelryinth