Post/Author/DateTime	Post
booey1 07-31-06, 05:59 AM	I've tried to play a monk a few times now... but it just doesn't seem to work. I can come up with a great character, etc, but that stats just make them suck. If you take an NPC monk and an NPC fighter, both unarmed in a 1v1 combat. The fighter without unarmed proficiency (the fighter only doing d3 non-lethal), the fighter will on average everytime win until 11th level. Then the monk's damage dice get too large. Although, if the fighter has power attack, the monk will never win. The main reasons seem to be: - monks need 4 high attributes (str,dex,con,wis), most classes need 3 or less. - low BAB - low AC - with magic you have to chose amuletts... so Con or Natural Armour or Attack bonus? So what I'm wondering is, has anyone played a good fun monk character and how did you do that without feeling underpowered and weak or dying in almost every combat?
runestar 07-31-06, 06:47 AM	The monk was never meant to be used as a fighter replacement, it is meant to augment the fighters by being a support character. You use his superior speed to go wherever you are needed in combat. You are essentially the party's swiss army knife/silver bullet, using your diverse talents to plug any gaps when necessary. :P So don't make the mistake of thinking that the monk is some sort of fighter tank which you place in from of the tarrasque to attempt to soak damage. that's what the fighter is for, you have a different use. :)
babysamurai 07-31-06, 06:53 AM	The monk was never meant to be used as a fighter replacement, it is meant to augment the fighters by being a support character. You use his superior speed to go wherever you are needed in combat. You are essentially the party's swiss army knife/silver bullet, using your diverse talents to plug any gaps when necessary. :P So don't make the mistake of thinking that the monk is some sort of fighter tank which you place in from of the tarrasque to attempt to soak damage. that's what the fighter is for, you have a different use. :) What he/she said. You’re Skirmish-Boy.
Thorak 07-31-06, 08:44 AM	Right. As I've said in plenty of threads, the Monk is a sub-par combatant. He ranks, in melee power, just above the Rogue, and significantly above the Bard, Sorceror, and Wizard. Every single other core class in the PHB is better at melee. Which states pretty clearly that melee isn't the class' strength, the same way divine casting isn't the Ranger's strength.
booey1 07-31-06, 08:57 AM	That's fine, I don't disagree. But what is the monk's swiss army knife like ability? Abundant step (L12) and Empty Body (L19) are great abilities, but you only get them at high levels. Unless you are taking on a large number of small badies, you're a bit useless in a fight. Sitting back using a bow most encounters because of your high dex and low HP doesn't really feel like a monk... <Edit> So what is the monk class strength, apart from making saving throws ;)
Nitan 07-31-06, 09:04 AM	Speed. You don't need to outrun the Red Dragon, you just have to outrun the Fullplate Fighter. ;)
jamesnero 07-31-06, 09:07 AM	as for doing damamge take improved natural attack at 6th level. Also askt he DM if you can use OA material they help the monk out plenty.
SigmaJargon 07-31-06, 09:13 AM	A fully twinked out monk can do some pretty massive damage, as it is very easy to stack a lot of size increases on your fists. However, in the more sensible realm of everyday gaming, a monk's main advantage is mobility. You have a high land speed and tumble as a class skill. Set up flanks for the rogue and the fighter, and apply Stunning Fist where it is most needed. Spring Attack enemies when you don't want to stand next to them.
Sik 07-31-06, 09:41 AM	And many people think that just because they can't wear armor, they're screwed out of an item slot. They can still wear enchanted robes, and bracers can be enchanted as armor can, if you wanted those enchantments. Monks have one of the highest possibilities for AC without being epic. You don't NEED the four Stats, they're just good to have. You'll want Con if you want to soak damage, Str if you want to do damage, or Dex/Wis if you want to avoid damage. It's all in how you WANT to play the character, not being a god.
BW0222 07-31-06, 10:01 AM	booey1, Yes, a fighter is better in a toe-to-toe melee fight in most cases. That should not be surprising -- that is the general purpose of the class. So what? The fighter is also better in a toe-to-toe fight than a bard, rogue, or ranger? That doesn't make these classes unplayable, it just means that you need to play them differently. It would be no different than a fighter trying to be a stealthy character and then complaining that he should have more skill points, skills, etc. because he should be able to sneak up on people. The monk is not designed as a toe-to-toe combatant. They have other skills -- stealth, tumble, good movement, and non-combat skills - which make them a jack-of-all trades. Consider yourself a support character. Backup the rogue on scouting missions. Use your movement to provide the fighter with flanking. Use tumble and movement to get into the rear lines and take out enemy spellcasters. Try grappling to neutralize opponents so you can pummel them to bits. Try taking a high strength and give yourself TWF and fight with a quarterstaff, with flurry you can take out lightly ACd opponents quickly. Try a high dex and going weapon finese. Try the dodge, mobility, spring attack route where your movement rate allows you to attack opponents and retreat behind your fighter. Try taking stealthy with a high move silently and hide. The monk is a second rate front-line fighter. They lack the armor and hit points. They are also second rate rogues, knowledge folks, diplomats, etc. However, they can fill multiple rolls. Unless you have 8 PCs, sometimes it is better to have someone who can scout, who can talk with folks, who has some knowledge skills, and who can fight in a pinch -- either to cover off all the missing areas of the party or as backups to the specialists.
silvergamgee 07-31-06, 10:24 AM	I have a monk that I've taken a slightly different direction on. I built up his monk levels and then took a few levels of pious templar. Good saving throws + evasion + mettle = big pain in the butt to enemy spellcasters. I actually use the tactic of getting myself surrounded by enemies and then have the wizard fireball the area. I virtually always make my saving throw so I ignore the whole thing and then I clean up stragglers or tumble away from the situation using my high speed. And as mentioned before, a few potions of enlarge person (or if you have the means, righteous might) can make you in a damage machine. The cleric has some awesome buff spells, see if he'll make you some potions to bring you up to speed if you plan on being in the thick of combat often. Monks are some of the most interesting characters to play, if you can figure out how to fill a niche that is unique and effective.
solbergb 07-31-06, 11:37 AM	The first thing you do is don't dump strength. The second thing you do is spend feats/resources on offense. (monks as a class have very solid all-around defenses but are a little undertrength in offense) The third thing you have to do is accept that your AC will be like a barbarian in the low levels, like a melee rogue of archer in the mid levels and only approach the armored fighters in the highest levels. The fourth thing is that your tactical feats (stun fist, grapple, trip or even disarm) can take away enemy attacks, which means (in combination with high touch AC and evasion) that you take less damage overall in many fights which ocmpensates for lower hitpoints and armor class. The fifth thing to realize is that a monk is a skirmisher, not heavy infantry. What this means is you must use your mobility to get to the vulnerable enemies in a given fight, use your tactical feats on them to lock them in place and then destroy them with your flurry. You do not fight the enemy melee specialists until all other opponents are dead - then you focus on striking from the edges of the formation, never fighting more than one enemy at a time. I have seen a number of highly effective monks, and I've had no complaints when my monk joins a table, even when he's the only party melee character. But you can not play them like a barbarian or like a tin-can tank and expect to be happy with the character.
TheDanishCartoonist 07-31-06, 11:47 AM	Monks are tricky. Against caster-types, you're unmatched. You have amazing saves, can close the range very quickly, can tumble past their tanks, and have several methods of shutting down their spellcasting while you wail on them (grapple, stunning fist, even improved trip). Against other humanoids, you're still a tough combatant. Tumble, potential for good to amazing AC, better HP than a rogue (generally), and combat maneuvers (trip, disarm, grapple, depending on feats and enemy) all can cause lots of chaos with the enemy. Tumble behind the BBEG, trip him, set up a flank with the (other fighter-type, if present), and you both take your AoO's when he stands up. You can't dish out the damage of a raging barb, or even a 2h or TWP fighter, but you still hurt, and you have more options for combat tricks than any other class. Even if you're the only fighter, you should be able to requisition a buff or two from your casters, and can do plenty to defend them so they can do the killing. Against big monsters, yeah, it's rough. You can't dish out as much damage in melee, combat tricks are generally less effective (or ineffective), you don't have very good ranged options, no proficiency with reach weapons, and have problems with damage reduction. :( Skills are another place you can shine, however. If a chasm needs jumping, a tightrope needs walking, an ocean needs swimming, a sheer cliff needs climbing, an orc camp needs sneaking into, or manacles need wiggling out of, you can do it as well or out-and-out better than anyone. Of course, you can't do all of these on one character, but you can pick and choose a few skills to master, and do them with as much or more survivablity than any other skill monkey. Coordinate with the rogue or bard or ranger, and you can plug all the skill-holes they may leave.
IbanezNinja 07-31-06, 01:03 PM	Monks are not really anti-casters. I mean, clerics and druids are straight up just gonna punch any monk that comes near them in eye, and the monk will go down hard. If the monk cannot out fight the fighter, how will he combat the strongest warriors in the game? He can't. As for arcane spellcasters, it mainly comes down to how smart they are. If a wizard just stands there, or gets suprised while unprepared, the monk might be able to dash up and grab him, and give the rest of the party time to get up and beat him down. But other than that, the monk has no options against a arcane spellcaster. If the wizard flies or goes invisible, the monk can do nothing. If the wizard feels like fighting, he'll polymorph into something big and nasty and beat the monk down. Really, the only time you'll say "Man I'm glad we have a monk" is if you see a wizard 120 feet away with his back turned, and he appears to be sleeping. And if you regularly catch casters like that, you could just have the casters in your party use the right spells and demolish him anways.
booey1 07-31-06, 02:37 PM	Ok, I'm really seeing the spring attack thing. But really when you are tumbling behind the huge monster to set up a flank for the fighters and it turns around and power attacks your tiny AC for insane damage, how does that work? And yea jump and climb have been usefull every 2 or 3 levels when you actually have to do it. I'm not knocking that, just trying to find out how to be more useful the rest of the time. Also for those talking about monks having one of the highest AC's. Using mid-level 8-12 and normal money show me those 30+ ACs the fighters have... <Edit> N.B At no point was I saying a monk should be as good a fighter in a straight fight. I was just suggesting he should be maybe better in an unarmed fight against a disarmed fighter.
wolfie-kun 07-31-06, 03:00 PM	Ok, I'm really seeing the spring attack thing. But really when you are tumbling behind the huge monster to set up a flank for the fighters and it turns around and power attacks your tiny AC for insane damage, how does that work? And yea jump and climb have been usefull every 2 or 3 levels when you actually have to do it. I'm not knocking that, just trying to find out how to be more useful the rest of the time. Also for those talking about monks having one of the highest AC's. Using mid-level 8-12 and normal money show me those 30+ ACs the fighters have... Was it not mentioned that your AC will be best at high levels? 15+ ish? Anyway, here's how you go about getting a good AC for your monk, items alone. Note: you are dumping Str for a good AC, and you don't want to do that. Trust me. 10th level PC: 49,000gp. +2 nat armor (amulet)=8,000 +2 Dex (gloves)=4,000 +5 Bracers of Armor=25,000 +2 ring of Protection=8,000 +1 insight (ioun stone)=5,000 AC bonus (not including initial stats)=+13 (with the +2 monk bonus). Dex and Wis should be around 14-16 initially, so actual AC bonus will vary from +17 to +19, depending on point buy or stat rolls. An AC of 27 isn't too terrible. Full BAB classes need (on average) a +7 to hit outside of their BAB to hit you, while 3/4 BAB classes need (again on average) a +10 outside of BAB. To make up for the loss of Str (if you really want this set of items...which aren't quite worth it without some tweaking to get other, more useful gear), take Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) at 7th level, and take Fiery Fist (PHB II) as soon as you actually can. Those two will improve the base unarmed strike damage just enough to match the output of a monk with a good Str score, but you won't have the attack bonus to match. Oh yeah, don't bother with Spring Attack. There are other feats that will be much more useful to you, such as improving your Stunning Fist ability.
Verelor 07-31-06, 03:20 PM	HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=169347) if you are willing to go for a whole new class. THIS ONE WORKS AS WELL (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=219521)
Thorak 07-31-06, 04:05 PM	Was it not mentioned that your AC will be best at high levels? 15+ ish? Anyway, here's how you go about getting a good AC for your monk, items alone. Note: you are dumping Str for a good AC, and you don't want to do that. Trust me. 10th level PC: 49,000gp. +2 nat armor (amulet)=8,000 +2 Dex (gloves)=4,000 +5 Bracers of Armor=25,000 +2 ring of Protection=8,000 +1 insight (ioun stone)=5,000 AC bonus (not including initial stats)=+13 (with the +2 monk bonus). Dex and Wis should be around 14-16 initially, so actual AC bonus will vary from +17 to +19, depending on point buy or stat rolls. You spent 50,000gp, not 49,000. But here's the problem with monk AC; 10th level Fighter. 13 Dex base. (I'm rounding the armor and shield prices up; they include the base item cost and I'm overestimating for ease of math) +3 Full Plate - 11,000gp +1 Animated Heavy Shield - 10,000gp Amulet of NA +2 - 8,000gp Ring of Protection +2 - 8,000gp Total AC; 29. Matching your monk with two base 16s. Only needed a single 13 in Dex. And only spent 38,000gp. And didn't use any feats; Heavy Armor Optimization, for instance, or Shield Specialization; with an animated shield, this character isn't spending anything but gold on defense; a defense-oriented Fighter can do far, far better. Tower shield and a one-handed weapon, feats, and you can vastly outperform the defensive monk, typically for less gold. While still being better in melee than the defensive monk, and only needing a 13 Dex. Since +4 Gloves of dex will let you max out Mithral Full Plate, and the 13 (rather than 12) lets you meet feat prereqs before you get the gloves.
ninjarabbit 07-31-06, 04:21 PM	AC isn't as important to a well played monk as it is to a heavily armored fighter because the monk won't be taking as many attacks as the fighter since the monk has a huge mobility advantage as well as usually having as many or more viable tactical options as the fighter
silvergamgee 07-31-06, 08:53 PM	Monks are not really anti-casters. I mean, clerics and druids are straight up just gonna punch any monk that comes near them in eye, and the monk will go down hard. If the monk cannot out fight the fighter, how will he combat the strongest warriors in the game? He can't. I would argue against that, a monk's speed is phenominal and I've seen some very competant spellcasters get fooled into thinking that the monk was something else until it was too late. Also, if a monk is seriously planning on doing this, improved grapple would be the first feat to pick up. Suddenly there is no AoO and the monk would get a +4 on his grapple check. As a bonus if you can maintain the grapple for even a single round, it gives the rest of your party time to concentrate on another powerful enemy. Your casters don't have to worry as much about counterspelling and you might just draw some of the enemy combatants to you as opposed to your party. If it gets to hot for you, release and tumble away. And assuming then that the wizard sees you coming and flies up high or goes invisible, that's one round where he won't be hampering party efforts. Monks are hard to kill or deter with magic, and that is why they are the antispellcaster. PS: Monks dealing unarmed damage in protracted grapples destroy things.
wolfie-kun 07-31-06, 09:02 PM	You spent 50,000gp, not 49,000. Total AC; 29. Matching your monk with two base 16s. Only needed a single 13 in Dex. And only spent 38,000gp. How the heck did I overspend? *grumbles to himself* Okay, yeah, I said respectable, I never said great or amazing. I also said that doing that is incredibly stupid, and certainly not at all worth the gp. You're often better off with a monk's belt and a Wis enhancing item than an amulet of natural armor and a ring of protection both at +2. I was simply trying to prove that monk AC doesn't suck, just that useful, practical monk AC sucks.
Heo1780 07-31-06, 09:16 PM	Right now I'm playing a Monk/Drunken Master in a campaign with a Ranger/Rogue, a Paladin, and a Grimilkin (NPC). My stats break down like this. Str 16 Con 14 Dex18 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 12 That's a standard 30 point buy system. I've got good scores in Dex and Wis to increase my AC and Attack (weapon finesse), Str so I can deal more damage, and a decent score in Con to get more HP. We're only level 2 so we haven't had much time to buy stuff. I find myself right along-side the Paladin in direct combat (the Ranger sits there and snipes from the rear) taking down enemies on par with the Paladin (I duel wield Nunchaku and a Handaxe), and at other times Sneaking in behind the enemy, and doing some stealth stuff with the Rogue. I dont have a lot of skill points to spend (I'm human so that helps a bit), but my +4 bonus from Dex helps out a lot in sneaking. THe skill points I have are put into Tumble and skills for the Drunken Master. A Low-Level Monk can be a bit frustrating (seeing the Paladin deal 2d6 + whatever for his Smites and the Rogue dealing 2d6 twice cause he duel wields and me only dealing 1 or 2d6 when i'm lucky) but in the end you get a huge benefit dealing 2d10 eventually, and having great saves (I was the only one to out manuever the avalanche) helps out a lot.
Thorak 07-31-06, 09:19 PM	How the heck did I overspend? *grumbles to himself* Okay, yeah, I said respectable, I never said great or amazing. I also said that doing that is incredibly stupid, and certainly not at all worth the gp. You're often better off with a monk's belt and a Wis enhancing item than an amulet of natural armor and a ring of protection both at +2. I was simply trying to prove that monk AC doesn't suck, just that useful, practical monk AC sucks. That was my point, too. Yes, a monk can match the AC of a Fighter who uses a two-handed weapon. But only by spending more GP on magical protections, and by gimping everything but their Dex and Wis, rendering them even less useful in melee. A dedicated defensive Fighter though, will be far more untouchable than a monk, by physical attacks at least.
EpicLevel 07-31-06, 09:56 PM	Monks make incredible melee combatants, if you know nearly everything there is to know in the Combat chapter of the PHB. When you take your bonus feats, go either all offensive, or all defensive and then pick up the other feats when you get them at the normal intervals. Having those all those monk bonus feats makes a big difference in your playability. Also, don't worry about spending skill points in the wrong places. Most potions you can buy to grant bonuses are dirt cheap, and allow you to spend the skill points in your class' main "feature" skills like Tumble and Escape Artist. That fighter isn't sitting so pretty when you've got him by the ropes in a grapple, pounding him into the dirt. None of that magical armor can save him from your flying fists of fury.
Rerecros 07-31-06, 10:09 PM	If you want to min/max a monk however, there is a build I thought up but haven't tried, and never will. Take goblin for race and exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain) as your first feat. Goblins are small, so they get bonus AC and attack, and they move as fast as a medium creature. Put your highest score into dexterity (+2 dex from goblin), then wisdom than the rest. Your going to be kinda useless for a while, but this build take patience. At level three take weapon finesse (both spiked chain and unarmed attacks now use dexterity instead of strength). The great thing about unarmed attacks, is you can still do them while holding a reach weapon. Once you've traveled down whirlwind attack feat tree, you'll be invincible. Of corse you can't trip or grapple worth beans with this build, and a lot of it's strength rests on the hopes that nothing can survive past your AoOs (combat reflexes+high dex) and overcome your massive AC to hit you.
Seerow 07-31-06, 10:11 PM	Monks make incredible melee combatants, if you know nearly everything there is to know in the Combat chapter of the PHB. When you take your bonus feats, go either all offensive, or all defensive and then pick up the other feats when you get them at the normal intervals. Having those all those monk bonus feats makes a big difference in your playability. Also, don't worry about spending skill points in the wrong places. Most potions you can buy to grant bonuses are dirt cheap, and allow you to spend the skill points in your class' main "feature" skills like Tumble and Escape Artist. That fighter isn't sitting so pretty when you've got him by the ropes in a grapple, pounding him into the dirt. None of that magical armor can save him from your flying fists of fury. Except the Fighter has a better grapple check thanks to the higher BAB and almost certainly better strength...
EpicLevel 07-31-06, 10:28 PM	Except the Fighter has a better grapple check thanks to the higher BAB and almost certainly better strength... And the monk will do more melee damage (on average) than a fighter in later levels where this becomes a problem, thus evening things out. EDIT: Apologies, but I realize now that specific point is useless to bring up, as they should not be fighting each other. Nevermind my class comparisons, just take the bulk of my statement said earlier.
runestar 07-31-06, 10:34 PM	I don't see a monk out-damaging a power attacking fighter... :(
wolfie-kun 07-31-06, 10:34 PM	And the monk will do more melee damage (on average) than a fighter in later levels where this becomes a problem, thus evening things out. All depends on what the monk does, and what the fighter does. They may even out, or one may surpass the other. The two classes are balanced against each other pretty well, though if you're going for direct melee ability the fighter will usually do a little better (as Thorak put it, they have to spend less on AC, thus they'll have better Str, and the large number of extra feats help).
Seerow 07-31-06, 10:35 PM	And the monk will do more melee damage (on average) than a fighter in later levels where this becomes a problem, thus evening things out. EDIT: Apologies, but I realize now that specific point is useless to bring up, as they should not be fighting each other. Nevermind my class comparisons, just take the bulk of my statement said earlier. Even if it was useless to bring up, it's still wrong. Even a halfassed optimized Fighter will out-damage the monk. Hell, he can outdamage him with unarmed strikes if he really tried! And the really sad thing is, none of it matters because niether of them can do anything to reach their enemies by those high levels anyway. Edit: Damn, got beat to it by TWO people. Am I getting slow?
EpicLevel 07-31-06, 11:11 PM	(Not counting stats, since a monk can just as easily have that 18 Str.) A 20th level monk, against an AC 25 opponent and using Flurry of Blows, will, on average, do 22 damage per round. A 20th level fighter against that same opponent using a longsword in two hands and a full Power Attack will, on average, do 13.05 damage. That's what I meant by "more melee damage."
Seerow 07-31-06, 11:43 PM	(Not counting stats, since a monk can just as easily have that 18 Str.) BS. If he does that he's going to have far lower AC. Give me a 28 point buy for both classes and you'll see the difference. Also, the monk has to spend 3x more on enchanting his fists than the Fighter does on his weapon. Did you take that into account? Did you take the Fighter's specialization and MWM into account? His Weapon Focus? If you want to look at JUST the base damage, why are you comparing to a longsword and shield? You're comparing an optimized Monk to an unoptimized Fighter, and assuming equal strength, which is stupid. Fighter 28 pt buy: Str: 16 +6 Item +5 Level +5 Tome = 32 Dex: 14 +2 item = 16 Con: 14 +6 Item = 20 Int: 14 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 Feats worth noting: Power Attack EWP(Bastard Sword) Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) Weapon Spec (Bastard Sword) MWM(Slashing) GWF(BS) GWS(BS) Weapon Supremacy (Bastard Sword) Shield Bash Shield Specialization(Heavy) Agile Shield Fighter That's just his bonus feats. (11 of them) Anything your monk takes outside of his bonus feats the Fighter -could- match step for step if it was worth his while. (in the case of something like INA it's clearly not) Items Worth Noting: +5 Mythril Full Plate of Heavy Fort (115,000) +5 Bastard Sword (50,000) +5 Heavy Shield of Bashing (96,000) +5 Heavy Shield (50,000) [Since you have to pay for attacking and defense separately] +5 Tome of Strength (137,500) +6 Belt of Strength (36,000) +2 Gloves of Dex (4000) +6 Ammy of Health (36,000) And I'm sure there's still plenty of money to spare there. I could probably pick up a cloak of resistance, and all of the generic +5 armor modifiers, but I'm too lazy to do the math just now. 20 BAB + 11 Str + +5 Enhancement + 4 Focus/Mastery = +40 to hit with Bastard Sword +36 to hit with Heavy Shield. So the full attack looks something like: Main Hand: +38/+33/+28/+23 Offhand: +34 Able to add +5 to any of those rolls except first, and able to take 10 on any of them, so even the last hit is an instant hit against AC25. And I can get away with power attacking for 3 with no problems hitting your AC25, so lets do that. Main Hand deals 1d10+25 av 30.5 Offhand deals 2d6+14 av 26 Since none of my attacks can miss the AC25, my average damage per round against it is 143. I could power attack for more if I was willing to take a slight risk for the third attack, (up to PA of 8 I have no risk of missing any of the others) but I wanted to keep this simple. And really, this isn't optimized. I'm using Two Weapon Fighting with a SHIELD for christs sake. I didn't add ANY weapon enhancements except for Bashing for the shield. And c'mon, I'm using Sword and Board, probably the least used style of fighting since 3.5 came out. Funny thing? I have +8 shield bonus to AC, + 13 armor bonus, and +3 dex bonus. I have a base AC from this of 34. There's still room for +10 more from Deflection/Natural Armor. Another +5 if I spend one of my normal feat slots on Combat Expertise (and take the 25% miss chance on my third mainhand attack) So no. The Monk isn't outdamaging the Fighter. He has a higher base damage for his unarmed strike, and that is -it-. But again, none of this matters because both classes STILL suck, because they can't get anywhere near the targets that matter to hit them to begin with. But go ahead, Monks are so awesome at dealing damage at high levels? Show me in detail, use whatever source you want. If you break 200 damage a round I'll bow out (even though the Fighter CAN be pushed higher than that, I refuse to stoop to Leap Attack/charger cheese.)
malignor 07-31-06, 11:44 PM	I'd like to point out early that this post here - mine - is a tribute to versatility, not high numbers. A fighter may hit harder, have better numbers, higher AC and so on, but a monk is built to be a lightweight, mobile guerilla skirmisher who's like a swiss army knife of enemy control, manipulation and neutralization. When a monk is on the battlefield, all those enemies who are not the big strong goons will be lying prone, stunned, grappled, disarmed or getting beaten on and/or wasting precious time and resources against a versatile and quick opponent which seems to survive every trick in the book. As a result, the enemy goons are isolated or too occupied protecting their support that the enemy force is scattered and/or paralyzed. As a result, the monk's high-numbered friends (wizards, barbarians) can just get down to the dirty business at hand - hitpoint economics. - - - - - - - I also think some folks are overlooking the Monk weapons. They do crappy damage, true, but it's known that Monks are not all about damage output ("hitpoint economics"), so much as battlefield controlling skirmishers. WP: club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling. club - found anywhere, thrown or melee, medium so usable 1-handed or 2-handed. crossbow - pretty lame, but you can fire them while prone, which is nice daggar - another "everywhere" weapon, also throwable. 19-20 crit handaxe - light slashing, x3 crit. Not impressive. javelin - 30' BR, thrown (so often bypasses Windwall), uses strength damage. A great weapon to put "Returning" enchantment on. kama - Use with flurries, usable for trip attacks, light slashing nunchaku - Use with flurries, +2 disarm quarterstaff - Use with flurries, double weapon, or can use without flurries as a 2-handed blunt weapon, another "everywhere" weapon sai - Use with flurries, throwable, +4 disarm shuriken - Use with flurries, BR 10' thrown plus strength damage, treat as ammo (free action to draw) siangham - Use with flurries, token piercing weapon sling - free weapon, can use free ammo (1d3, -1 hit), BR 50', add strength damage. Now also remember that monks get to add their full strength to flurries, even with a light weapon, and can mingle unarmed with armed. = = = = = -Make a guy with improved trip? He should always be packing kamas. They're small, cheap, light and perfect to buy as Adamantine, Silver and/or Cold Iron. Use the kama to trip, and when/if successful, you can use that extra attack with the kama or just a boot to the head. If you fail the trip, finding out youre facing a big goon, you can drop the kama (which your opponent probably can't even use properly) instead of being counter-tripped. Plus, packing all the different alloys at 2 lbs a pop, you're not encumbered at all even though you just gave yourself alot of options. Not alot of damage, just more options at low encumbrance and low cost. Remember, your (lesser) damage contribution comes from alot of little attacks, not one big one. So the flurry of light weapons (which is like TWF without the reduction in strength damage bonus - enjoy it) works. -When you get rich, don't bother enchanting them to heck. Just +2 or 3 on each should do, preferrably with DR-breakers or Bane... Adamantine kama +1 of Construct Bane (11002 gp), Holy Silver kama +1 (18322 gp), Holy Cold Iron kama +1 (20304 gp) ... set of three is under 50kgp and will take care of 95% of the DRs you'll come across in the high levels, especially when mingled with your fists (bludgeon, magic, eventually lawful and adamantine as well). -Shuriken are great for the right circumstances (not for all, believe me). I always suggest having a few silver shuriken (3 gp for 5) and cold iron shuriken (2 gp for 5) kicking around. Even adamantine when you get rich (62gp for 5 :P). They're a nice way to test out some alloy-based damage reductions without getting close, and against multiple opponents via "flurry of shuriken". -Another trick to shuriken is to have a high strength. Laying down 1-2 more shots per round than a standard BAB-roller, and having a high strength means you can lay down 2-5 times your strength damage in a round from a distance, plus a few nickels & dimes, and spread it out or concentrate it as you see fit. Again, not alot of damage, just alot of options. One thing I'd like to know is if Shuriken can be enchanted with Returning. "Returning" says it works on thrown weapons, but "Shuriken" says it's treated as ammunition... but also says it's a thrown weapon. So can shuriken be returning or what? One for the FAQ I guess. -Another little tidbit is the Manyshot feat. It lets you throw yet another per round, kinda like an extra Flurry effect. So I guess theoretically a monk can throw 6 shuriken per round (and at +1 to hit in 30' from the Point Blank Shot prerequisite). Makes me wonder how I'd build a monk thrower/archer... hmmm. Definitely shot on the run... -Lastly, if I were suggest the "default readied weapon" I suggest a sling or crossbow. You can fire them if ranged combat is the first thing you need to do, or you can kick em in the head if melee combat is the order of the moment. Since they also both take time to load, having one ready to fire (and drop or load, depending on what's next) once again leaves the Monk flexible. I'll grant that other classes can do similar (Martial class with a bow at the ready, wearing armor spikes... wizard with spell component ready, alter selved into a lizardfolk with natural weapons, etc) so I guess this is just a statement that the Monk can do more with less in some cases (sling is free, sling stone is free, fists are free). I acknowledge that the example mage and martial classes can have arguably better numeric results as well. But in a real campaign setting, custom magic armor with magic armor spikes takes plenty of time and money, so the fighter won't have it handy as often as the Monk. Furthermore, the wizard has already used a spell that may or may not run out before an actual ambush. So we're back to square 1, where the monk is more prepared for an ambush than most classes, which can save the entire party's collective arse. ... Aside... wouldn't it be interesting to make a set of 3 throwable melee weapons, each enchanted with +1 of Ki Focus and Returning? Each would be 1830Xgp but can be thrown 3 every round and allow the monk to do stunning fists, quivering palms and use Ki strike at a range. That'd work great with the Monk multi-thrower idea... He'd need the quickdraw feat... always be carrying 2 in-hand... club? daggar? sai? One of each?...
Lady Maedhros 07-31-06, 11:50 PM	A 20th level monk, against an AC 25 opponent and using Flurry of Blows, will, on average, do 22 damage per round. A 20th level fighter against that same opponent using a longsword in two hands and a full Power Attack will, on average, do 13.05 damage. Why is the 20th level fighter using a longsword? He should either have a greatsword or a two-bladed sword, either of which would push him ahead, although the greatsword is better, since it gives him a nice clean +10 damage right off the bat from his Power Attack and the 5 BAB he's dropping that the monk can't come up with. We're not even going to talk about the difference in cost between the fighter's +5 flaming burst and the monk's amulet, which he might not even have since he needs that spot for armor. You could give him a magic quarterstaff, I suppose, but the fighter still beats him once the equipment is equal. The problem with the monk, as a class, is that it's self-defeating. Good land speed and free Spring Attack and Tumble sound skirmish-y, but Flurry requires you to stand and fight. Spell resistance looks really shiny, but you already have evasion and 3 good saves, so you already barely care about magic. Stunning Fist seems like a nifty form of crowd control, but it's subject to armor and with a medium BAB and serious MAD issues, it never lands. Ditto Improved Disarm or Improved Trip. You've got lots of neat skills, including some of the rarer socials like Diplomacy, on your class list, but you need everything but Cha and Int just to survive, so you can really only afford three or four off the list. So you get all these abilities that sound really cool and powerful, but when you get right down to it, they don't synergize for crap, and you end up with half a class.
malignor 08-01-06, 12:11 AM	Ditto ... Improved Trip.This requires a touch attack. Remember, a Monk is not supposed to run up to the big goons and go toe-to-toe. Remove that notion from your head completely. Just tear it out, throw it away, ignore it and pretend it never existed. A monk is a neutralizer. The stunnable foes (low Fort) should worry - the monk will render them helpless. The slow tanks with no ranged ability (some martial classes, many magical beasts) should worry - the monk will stay out of reach and whittle them down. The grapple-meat (wizards, rakshasas, many undead & fey, SLA-dependents) should worry - the monk will render them useless. The humanoids (archers especially) should worry - the Monk will have em on their back like a 2cp prostitute. Almost anyone should worry when a Monk and a Rogue are teamed up. The monk can dart to the far side of the victim and flank, turning the rogue's SA into a full-meal deal of pain and suffering. Especially if the Monk manages to stun or grapple the foe. The monk has to pick his targets. Usually support or artillery (arcanists). These are the kinds of opponents that can be occupied, controlled and/or neutralized to make the rest of the party able to do their jobs.
Seerow 08-01-06, 12:26 AM	This requires a touch attack. Remember, a Monk is not supposed to run up to the big goons and go toe-to-toe. Remove that notion from your head completely. Just tear it out, throw it away, ignore it and pretend it never existed. A monk is a neutralizer. The stunnable foes (low Fort) should worry - the monk will render them helpless. The slow tanks with no ranged ability (some martial classes, many magical beasts) should worry - the monk will stay out of reach and whittle them down. The grapple-meat (wizards, rakshasas, many undead & fey, SLA-dependents) should worry - the monk will render them useless. The humanoids (archers especially) should worry - the Monk will have em on their back like a 2cp prostitute. Almost anyone should worry when a Monk and a Rogue are teamed up. The monk can dart to the far side of the victim and flank, turning the rogue's SA into a full-meal deal of pain and suffering. Especially if the Monk manages to stun or grapple the foe. The monk has to pick his targets. Usually support or artillery (arcanists). These are the kinds of opponents that can be occupied, controlled and/or neutralized to make the rest of the party able to do their jobs. What level are you talking? Because around level 7 you'll be finding it hard to grapple a smart enemy Wizard or Sorc, by level 9 you'll be finding it damn near impossible. (Seriously, at level 9 Greater Dimension Door opens up, he doesn't even need to cast anything to get away from you, he put it up at the start of the fight.) But yeah, I'm not going to argue anymore than I need to unless someone does in fact come back trying to claim that a Monk is an awesome damage dealer. The best I could see happening is somehow a Monk gets 7 levels of Cleric casting and 11 levels of monk (there's some prestige class or another that allows this for a multiclassed Monk/Cleric. Hell Monk12/Cleric8 does it pretty well without prestiges, so it should be possible) and going around with DMM Persisted Divine Power so he gets 5 attacks when he full attacks, and gains HP and Strength he might not otherwise have. But of course, this won't kick in until very late game unless the PrCs in question are better than I think (ie increasing Flurry as well as divine casting). Anyway, yeah, leaving now before I babble myself incoherent.
SlagMortar 08-01-06, 12:29 AM	Since no one has mentioned it yet, the monk is a very good vehicle for buffs from the rest of the party. No one receives a polymorph better than a monk. -- Loose little equipment. Polymorphing the fighter usually results in replacing armor with natural armor. Polymorphing the monk means adding natural armor. Keep wisdom bonus to AC and monk bonus to AC -- Can still use grapple and trip and is much better at it thanks to strength and size increases. -- Being larger means a higher damage die for unarmed attacks -- Keep all your special abilities - good saves, evasion, spell resistance
EpicLevel 08-01-06, 12:46 AM	Look, I was saying the Fighter was using the Longsword as a baseline. Yes, a fighter can use a greatsword/fullblade/mercurial greatsword/whathaveyou to get a better damage output. But the monk can also get Improved Natural attack. That's all I'm gonna say. I don't want to get into an arguement with anybody; all I wanted to do was show that monks were more capable melee fighters than people give them credit for. But, I agree wholeheartedly that both Fighters and Monks need re-working. Some of the best stuff both classes can get make them very narrow-viewed, in terms of both in-combat and out-of-combat play.
Seerow 08-01-06, 12:54 AM	Look, I was saying the Fighter was using the Longsword as a baseline. Yes, a fighter can use a greatsword/fullblade/mercurial greatsword/whathaveyou to get a better damage output. But the monk can also get Improved Natural attack. That's all I'm gonna say. BS I didn't even TOUCH a greatsword, let alone any of that other crap. You want to use a Longsword baseline then drop the average damage I presented by 4 total, 1 per hit. That's all the difference it was, a d10 vs a d8. Monk takes Improved Natural Attack, and hell, let's give him that feat from BoED that lets him add his Wis to attack rolls to reduce his MAD. He'd STILL lose. I gave a really almost unoptimized build, using mostly the perimeters you set (A Bastard Sword instead of a Longsword, still using a shield). Monk with a Monk's Belt and INA gets what... 6d8 damage per hit? That's an average of 27, so yes it's pretty good. Add in an ammulet of Natural Attacks for +5 to hit and damage, and you actually beat my average damage per hit. But you paid 3 times more for it, and any tweak of optimization puts the Fighter back ahead even with that.
Lady Maedhros 08-01-06, 12:58 AM	This requires a touch attack. ... and an opposed Strength check, which the monk still won't win. Unless he's fighting a caster, who doesn't really care if he gets tripped because he's flying. Look, I was saying the Fighter was using the Longsword as a baseline. Yes, a fighter can use a greatsword/fullblade/mercurial greatsword/whathaveyou to get a better damage output. But the monk can also get Improved Natural attack. That's all I'm gonna say. Yes. You're right. A feat that allows you to do one extra damage on average is entirely equivalent to a 50 gp weapon that gives you two extra damage on average and can be enchanted sixteen ways to Sunday.
brewgnome 08-01-06, 12:58 AM	Elven Monks get bows...if you can get your hands on an enchanted bow or even a str bow, so much the better. Good AC and rocking saves keep you safe from enemy misslers and spell casters while using high speed to get where you want to be. Assuming you let a foe close, you're still considered armed with your off hand if they get in melee range. You'll never get all the archery feats, but you don't need all of them...snatch arrows is fun, too. :) Best thing about the quarterstaff being a flurry weapon...2 handed, so great [U]for improved disarm...+8 from the weapon and the feat before stacking in magic, str, bab, etc on the disarm attempt. Then you still have the most of your flurry to stun or beat your opponent senseless. Works good with Sunder, too, if you have the feats to spend and a decent Str. A high str monk makes a good grappler. The high damage dice which do leathal damage instead of temporary certainly help.
EpicLevel 08-01-06, 01:13 AM	Yes. You're right. A feat that allows you to do one extra damage on average is entirely equivalent to a 50 gp weapon that gives you two extra damage on average and can be enchanted sixteen ways to Sunday. You aren't listening to me. I was saying, at later levels; you know, when that 2d10 becomes 4d8? That's what I was getting at. Like I said, I'm not going to argue with any of you. I've already said what I needed to say.
Thorak 08-01-06, 08:26 AM	I've done the math before, but it looks like I'm going to be forced to do it again. Okay. Let's assume they're each Humans with 18 base Strengths. And we'll assume the Monk is going to completely ignore AC, and boost their Strength to match the Fighter. So, at level 20, they've got a 22 base (18, +4 from levels), with a Belt of Giant Strength +6 to bring it to 28. The monk has an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, and INA. So his damage is 4d8+5. The Fighter has a Greatsword that costs slightly less, a +8 weapon. I am going one step lower even though the Fighter spends less of defensive gear as well, especially if he only has to match, for comparative purposes, this monk's low AC. All advantages to the monk for the purpose of the comparison, you see. The weapon's specific enhancements are +5 Flaming Shocking Frost. The Fighter has also taken Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, GWF, GWS, all in Greatsword. Also has Power Attack, and obviously other feats, but I'll leave it there for now. Now, let's assume they attack, and the Fighter Power Attacks for 7 points, to match the attack bonus of the monk (BAB difference, and WF and GWF). Their damages per-hit are; Monk; 4d8(base) +5(AoMF) +9(Str), average 32 Fighter; 2d6(base) +3d6 (elemental bonuses) +5(magic) +4 (WS) +13 (Str) +14(PA), Average; 53.5 So obviously, in any round where they don't get a full attack, Fighter does much better. But let's examine a full attack. And let's assume they hit each time, so the Monk gets the most out of Flurry. The Monk hits 5 times, the Fighter 4. Monk averages 160, Fighter averages 214. Yup, Fighter is still outdoing Monk. Heck, if the Fighter misses once and the Monk hits with each, Fighter outdoes Monk. And I haven't considered, yet, that the Fighter has a better critical threat range. They have the same to-hit for their first attacks at this point. The Fighter is at +29/+24/+19/+14, and the Monk is at +29/+29/+29/+24/+19. So let's compare hit chances against that 25 AC. +29 obviously hits 95% of the time, as does the +24. +19 hits on a 6+, 75% of the time, and +14 hits 50% of the time, on an 11+. So the Fighter has a 95+95+75+50= 315% chance of landing a hit, averaging about 3 hits a round. The monk has a 95+95+95+95+75= 455% chance of landing a hit. 315% of 53.5 average damage is 168.525. 455% of 32 is 145.6. Fighter again does better, in a raw damage comparison. And spent less on their weapon. And can easily have a higher AC and HP. And a better critical threat range. And a better AoO or single attack action. And can get a +10 weapon, whereas the AoMF doesn't get any better from here. Do you need any more proof that the Monk simply cannot compete with the Fighter? There are yet other advantages the Fighter has, in some of the other feat options they can take, that I haven't even gotten into yet. And the Fighter isn't even the biggest number-puncher of the warrior classes; a Barbarian would have had even bigger damage numbers, and a better to-hit. A high str monk makes a good grappler. The high damage dice which do leathal damage instead of temporary certainly help Grapple checks are BAB based. You can't do damage unless you win an opposed Grapple check. A Fighter with Improved Grapple is at least 5 points better than you, giving him a much higher chance of winning any given grapple check. And a Barbarian can have an even higher Strength, to boot. If I wanted a grappler, I'd go Barbarbian 1/Fighter 4/Reaping Mauler 5/Bear Warrior 10. Because at level 20, I'm looking at a +48 opposed grapple check. Explain to me how a Monk can even get close to that. And to be clear; that's without any magical gear, outside buffs, or any feats that aren't required or provided by the PrCs. And the base race was a half-orc. So that +48 is a baseline, not a completely tricked out setup.
Thorn_Monk 08-01-06, 09:42 AM	The problem with the monk, as a class, is that it's self-defeating. Good land speed and free Spring Attack and Tumble sound skirmish-y, but Flurry requires you to stand and fight. Spell resistance looks really shiny, but you already have evasion and 3 good saves, so you already barely care about magic. Stunning Fist seems like a nifty form of crowd control, but it's subject to armor and with a medium BAB and serious MAD issues, it never lands. Ditto Improved Disarm or Improved Trip. You've got lots of neat skills, including some of the rarer socials like Diplomacy, on your class list, but you need everything but Cha and Int just to survive, so you can really only afford three or four off the list. So you get all these abilities that sound really cool and powerful, but when you get right down to it, they don't synergize for crap, and you end up with half a class. I love the idea of the monk class, but I hate to admit that I fully agree with this. You give up BAB to get flurry, but you have to just stand there to get the benefit of the flurry, which means you're not getting the benefit of mobility. If you use your "skirmisher" abilities to the fullest, you only get one attack, so you just plain suffer for BAB. I decided to focus on being a tripper, but because of MAD I'm rarely at a significant tripping advantage. It's great not "needing" items, but it gets kinda boring when you keep getting passed over during loot division ("gee, cool sword ... I can't use it"). Plus, when it comes time to buy what you CAN use (and definitely NEED to keep up), it costs you an arm and a leg. I'm seriously considering rolling up a fighter and sending my beloved monk off for some long-term meditation.
ninjarabbit 08-01-06, 11:00 AM	But is the fighter gets his weapon stolen/disarmed/sundered/polymorphed/somethingelse most of your feats become nigh-useless and you're about as effective as a neutered kitten. I'll agree with the monk not really being that great of a grappler not to mention that grappling takes away one of monk's significant advantages: mobility. The trick with the monk is to spring attack until you hit something with a stun or trip and then moving in for the kill with a FoB. As far as building a tripper goes you're going to have MAD regardless if you're a monk or a fighter. The best way to go to reduce MAD for a tripper is a wolf totem barbarian from Unearthed Arcana.
Seerow 08-01-06, 11:28 AM	You aren't listening to me. I was saying, at later levels; you know, when that 2d10 becomes 4d8? That's what I was getting at. Like I said, I'm not going to argue with any of you. I've already said what I needed to say. But you're -wrong-. Thorak even gave you more of a benefit of the doubt than I did, and didn't use MWM/Weapon Supremacy, and the Monk -still- couldn't compete. For my example I gave you a 6d8 base damage unarmed strike and you -still- lost. Seriously, don't make a claim you don't intend to back up when someone calls you on it.
solbergb 08-01-06, 11:34 AM	It bears repeating. The mobility is to get to the folks you can grapple/trip/stun The grapple/trip/stun is to hold them in place for a round for the followup flurry. A hit plus a flurry from a decently designed monk will pretty much destroy most grappleable/trippable/stunnable targets. you WANT to hold still while crushing the weak enemy that you used your mobility to get to. Meanwhile the bodyguards are wasting actions running back to you instead of beating up the party, you are tough enough to take their single attacks, then you've finished the job and can use your mobility to escape the full attacks of the goons. Or if they don't come and rescue the boss, that's also good. Now you are free to pick another victim. That's how you fight a mixed opponent battle with a monk. You use all the tools, and the melee-weak enemy can't remove you with spells. If fighting multiple strong melee opponents you use the mobility to get at the most injured/hampered opponent and finish it. You hold still while finishing it because it is either too dead or too hampered to counterattack enough to matter. (eg, from a recent fight, I went 5' out of reach of a hill giant wereboar half in and half out of an acid fog. I tripped it with my nonproficient masterwork spiked chain (I was enlarged via a potion). In that situation it had no way of attacking me next round, and the next round I 5' stepped toward it, flurried, and killed it. Had it resisted the trip (about a 65% chance to resist...but had it approached me I would have had a second try if I was not disarmed from the AOO...my overall odds of sticking a trip were about 50/50 in that situation), its single attack could not have stopped the killing flurry, even on a power attack full crit) Since there is a lot of noise about damage, here's what I was doing in that fight: spiked chain "freebies" were doing 2d6+10, nothing to write home about since it was not silver..only 7 damage on average. Flurry full attack did about 135 points of damage (5 attacks due to bracers of quickstrike at 2d8+2d6+7 damage, silver, using triple weapon capsule retainer, quicksilver, quickspark, quickfrost and an enlarge person potion and no outside buffs. I would only miss on any of the attack rolls I did on a 1, and I had gloves of fortunate striking for a reroll if I needed it. ). Yes, I used a lot of one/day and single charge/combat things on that flurry. It was the only flurry I did in the battle, and no haste had come up from the arcanist, which is usually a 1/day kind of situation. So it is something I can generally count on if I need it. The bad guy had 185hp, and took about 15 from the acid fog, 140 from me and the rest from a tin-can fighter type who got in one hit before I set up the flurry. Even had I failed to kill it, it would have been sufficiently mauled that my other 4 party members could have finished it off before it got to move again. That was a CR11 opponent at level 11. I could have just killed it solo (my second flurry would easily do enough to kill it even without the quickflame/quickspark) but then I would have exited the battle down about 80 points of damage instead of zero and might have even lost had it got lucky and rolled a crit. I used 150gp of consumables to win the fight, because it isn't a good fight for a monk (two strong, tough, high hp monsters...grapple check +33, trip check +24, fort save +20, although the relatively low 19 AC helped some) You have to work with your team. Against weaker melee opponents, I don't burn the consumables, but they're there for these kinds of fights - and they do more for me than a normal fighter because I get more attacks. So the size bonuses, elemental damage etc get used 5 times instead of three. The most difficult fight for a monk is the single melee opponent. Still though, those tend to mean the spellcasters focus on crippling it and then the melee folks go in to beat it up before it recovers. Worst case you set up the fighter-type for success, since he'll do somewhat more damage than you, he'll usually get the heat, which he is more equipped to handle. But you'll still do about 80% of his damage, if you don't dump strength. That's a not inconsiderable contribution to the fight. If the bad guy does focus on you, that's a round the fighter isn't being beat on, and one full attack won't take a monk out of the fight. He may need to use his mobility to hit and run next round, or move+heal so he can return to the fray. But you don't tend to get that focus until you've done something that worries the bad guy. (either a significant full attack, or a tactical trick that either worked or almost worked)
Realms of Chaos 08-01-06, 11:47 AM	Here is my randition of the Monk that requires only 1 stat ranging from 16-18 (but 18 is always perferable). Human Monk Stats: Str 12, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 18, Cha 8 (a very possible set of stats). Selection #1. Choose the Decisive Strike class feature from the PHB II in place of the flurry of blows class feature. At level 1, this looks like a disadvantage as one out of two attacks seems better than one attack but It will indeed pay off. Another thing to consider is that you're attack is close to that of a fighter, albeit at a -2 penalty and taking a full-round action. You also deal about as much damage as the fighter, 2d6+2. Selection #2: Choose Stunning Fist as your bonus feat. One advantage of the Decisive Strike class feature is that it boosts the DC of the Stunning Strike class feature by 2. Selection #3: As your 2 feats, choose sacred vow and vow of poverty from the BoED. This gives you a +4 bonus to your AC, raising it up to 20, about at the level of a fighter. As the bonus feat from the vow of poverty, choose the Favored of the Champions/ Knight of Stars/ Servant of the Heavens feat. It isn't going to help that much but the bonus is always welcome. Level 2 Selection #1: Choose Fiery Fist (PHB II, Page 79) as as your Bonus feat. This is where your Decisive Strike class feature starts to pay off. By giving up a stunning fist attempt, you can try to deal 2d6+2d6+2 damage, more damage than even a fighter or barbarian could hope to accomplish without extreme use of poer attack. Selection #2: As your bonus exalted feat, choose intuitive attack, allowing you to apply your wisdom score instead of your strength score for attack rolls with simple and natural weapons. Now, your attack bonus is +3, similar to that of a fighter but a couple of points lower. Level 3 At this point, your ac increases by 1 (up to 21) and you become resistant to the elements due to your Vow. In addition, you gain still mind (as if you really need it) and your speed increases by 10 feet. Selection #1: As your Feat, choose fists of Iron (Complete warrior, page 99). Now, by giving up 2 stunning fist attempts, you get to do 2d6+2d6+2d6+2 damage with your attacks. Level 4 Now: your weapons strike as +1 weapons and you can slow your falls. In addition, you're unarmed damage increases to 1d8. Choice #1: Increase your wisdom by 1 point. This won't have any immediate effects but it is still good to plan ahead. Choice #2: as there are no superior exalted feats to choose from right now, choose nimbus of light to help you with your job as a diplomat. At this point, you can deal 2d8+2d6+2d6+3 damage on a successful hit and you get a +6 bonus on attacking when you use your decisive strike. Level 5: No choices. You no longer need to eat or drink and you become immune to mundane diseases (which is enough in my opinion). Your ac also raises to 22. Level 6: you can slow fall by more, your speed increases again, and your AC increases to 24. Choice #1: As your bonus Feat, choose Fiery Ki defense. Although it mentions being a bonus feat at 8th level, monks gain no such bonus feat so I assum it meant to say 6th level. If i'm wrong, instead choose Improved Disarm. Choice #2: As your regular feat, choose Improved Natural Attack (MM 3.5, page 304.) this makes your base attack deal 2d6 instead of 1d8. Choice #3: As your bonus exalted feat, choose vow of purity. Your level is approaching the level when you will be facing death effects and you can't count on your high saves alone to protect you. For those of you who have lost track, with decisive strike, your attack now deals 8d6+3. I beleive that by now I have proved my point. :D
malignor 08-01-06, 12:00 PM	... and an opposed Strength check, which the monk still won't win. Unless he's fighting a caster, who doesn't really care if he gets tripped because he's flying.Then he holds action to throw a javelin for when the wizard casts his next spell. Or he picks another target. Or any number of actions. When did he cast fly? Did he memorize fly? Why can't the monk be buffed or have potions? Why does the wizard suddenly have precognition? Did the wizard win initiative, use abilities or skills to know that this is a monk and this is what he's capable of? When did this turn into a 1-on-1 fight? I thought it was a battle. The monk is. The caster must prepare and then do. Pigeonholed potential is not equal to "actual". Comparing theoretical things does not provide valid results for real circumstances. All you can trust is the playtest. Stare at the numbers and books all you want... you'll just learn how to build characters and argue rules, not compare apples to oranges. Just last game, our monk (level 3, with stunning fist and improved grapple) was the most dangerous person in the party. I (a Rgr2/Sorc1, using a wand of Enlarge Person) Enlarged him and he crushed half the enemy force by 1-shotting the orcs and grappling an ogre into a pretzel (... okay, 2nd strongest; I just realized I was better). In the other fight he took out the enemy Drow Cleric, plus shrugged off a lightning bolt, laughed at a Web spell and took out enemy summons as he went. The entire enemy force was levitating, but it didn't mean squat in the forest, since we knew how to use terrain. EDIT: Many alot of typos and bad grammar... I need my coffee... :(
Thorak 08-01-06, 01:34 PM	Here is my randition of the Monk that requires only 1 stat ranging from 16-18 (but 18 is always perferable). Human Monk Stats: Str 12, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 18, Cha 8 (a very possible set of stats). Selection #1. Choose the Decisive Strike class feature from the PHB II in place of the flurry of blows class feature. At level 1, this looks like a disadvantage as one out of two attacks seems better than one attack but It will indeed pay off. Another thing to consider is that you're attack is close to that of a fighter, albeit at a -2 penalty and taking a full-round action. You also deal about as much damage as the fighter, 2d6+2. Selection #2: Choose Stunning Fist as your bonus feat. One advantage of the Decisive Strike class feature is that it boosts the DC of the Stunning Strike class feature by 2. Selection #3: As your 2 feats, choose sacred vow and vow of poverty from the BoED. This gives you a +4 bonus to your AC, raising it up to 20, about at the level of a fighter. As the bonus feat from the vow of poverty, choose the Favored of the Champions/ Knight of Stars/ Servant of the Heavens feat. It isn't going to help that much but the bonus is always welcome. Congratulations. By taking Vow of Poverty, you've completely removed any possibility that you can ever deal with a flying opponent. Level 2 Selection #1: Choose Fiery Fist (PHB II, Page 79) as as your Bonus feat. This is where your Decisive Strike class feature starts to pay off. By giving up a stunning fist attempt, you can try to deal 2d6+2d6+2 damage, more damage than even a fighter or barbarian could hope to accomplish without extreme use of poer attack. Yes, you do 4d6+2 at this point. And a Fighter with a Greatsword does 2d6+7 or so, and has a +3 better chance to hit (from BAB and the -2 penalty for Decisive Strike, I'm taking into account your Intuitive Strike). If he Power Attacks for the difference, he's dealing 2d6+13 damage. Which averages to 20 damage, as compared to the monk's 16. Level 3Selection #1: As your Feat, choose fists of Iron (Complete warrior, page 99). Now, by giving up 2 stunning fist attempts, you get to do 2d6+2d6+2d6+2 damage with your attacks. Which brings you up to a whopping 23 damage. And there's a limit to how many times a day you can do this. At this level, 3 times. Three attacks, dealing this much damage. At this point, you can deal 2d8+2d6+2d6+3 damage on a successful hit and you get a +6 bonus on attacking when you use your decisive strike. Fighter has taken Weapon Focus and GWS in Greatsword. He has a +10 bonus on attacking, and deals 2d6+9 damage. If he Power Attacks for the difference, he deals 2d6+17, average 24. The monk? 26. 4 times a day. 19 every other time. The Fighter would probably pick up a magical weapon in here somewhere, too. Which would give him the advantage even if you're using Iron Fist. Choice #2: As your regular feat, choose Improved Natural Attack (MM 3.5, page 304.) this makes your base attack deal 2d6 instead of 1d8. Choice #3: As your bonus exalted feat, choose vow of purity. Your level is approaching the level when you will be facing death effects and you can't count on your high saves alone to protect you. For those of you who have lost track, with decisive strike, your attack now deals 8d6+3. I beleive that by now I have proved my point. :D Not when the Fighter gets two attacks at this level, and is still vastly outdoing your damage. Assuming he's now got a greatsword +1, he's got a 3 points advantage over your monk on to-hit rolls. Not using Power Attack, he deals 2d6+10 damage. Your 8d6+3 averages to 31 damage. Two hits by the Fighter averages to 34. One's got a better to hit, one worse, so I consider that a wash. And again; you've got a limit to how long you can keep dealing this high damage. The Fighter does not. And he's got a better critical than you.
perdera 08-01-06, 01:58 PM	I don't see the point in the Fighter vs Monk debate, but I'd like to share how I play my level 12 Half-Orc Monk (32 point buy). This campaign is not Monty Haul at all, loot distribution is 'normal' (yeah, I know that's subjective). I have not used any books besides the PHB and DMG (for items) to make this guy. I'm sure there are badass feats in some of those other books to pimp him out. I chose to primarily build him for Defense, but not to the exclusion of all else. His walking around AC is 28: 10 Base 8 from Dex/Wis (both are 16 base with +2 items) 2 from Monk 2 from Ring of Protection 2 from Ring of Force Shield 4 from Bracers of Armor Various other modifiers include +1 for Dodge, +4 for Mobility, and +6 for Total Defense. Anger the big bad guy and then turtle with Dodge and Total Defense: AC 35, and that's before any party buffs. Note there's still a good deal of room for improvement here since my Dex and Wis can both still benefit from +4 items/buffs, and I have no Natural Armor item. My saves are Fort 13, Ref 15, Will 15 (Cloak of Resistance +3), and of course have Improved Evasion. Spells aren't too much of a concern (especially since he's in Eberron so has Action Points). Offense isn't amazing. My attacks are 15/15/15/10 and do 2d6+5, crit on a 20. Needed Weapon Focus and a Belt of Giant Strength to get to that point. Grapple check is only +14 (didn't take Improved Grapple) but I carry around Potions of Enlarge for when I need to get the deed done. As stated previously, I'm all over the battlefield. The biggest mistake an opponent can make is to not be flying. Spell caster in the back? Tumble over there with my 70 foot movement, Trip him down (Improved Trip), and lay down the Stunning Fist (Fort DC 20). Guy running away to alert friends? 140 foot charge and Trip him down. Of course that gets uglier with Haste on. In addition, Abundant Step adds a great deal of utility to any situation. I can easily be a frontline fighter (though I HAVE had many close calls) and have frequently just stood blocking hallways while Fighting Defensively and using my Combat Reflexes to trip anyone trying to get past me to my casters in the back raining down death. If I'm toe-to-toe with a big guy I just keep trying to Trip him until succesful (within reason, if he's TOO big I just yell for the casters to run, hehe), thus denying him his Full Attack action and/or the ability to break into the rear ranks. I'm also providing AoO's to myself and anyone else who happens to be standing nearby when the guy tries to stand back up. Running over to Trip the bad guy chasing our Wizard around so that the Wizard can make his escape has come in useful more than once. Being able to freely heal 24 hit points comes in useful every dang day. The 6 Intelligence and Charisma is hilarious to roleplay. I guess that's it. Look into using potions to get you through the early levels until you can get your hands on the appropriate magic items. Before I got the Bracers of Armor and Ring of Protection I carried around a large supply of Mage Armor and Shield of Faith potions. Unfortunately you can't get Shield in potion form, so getting that Ring of Force Shield is a good goal to aim for. Good luck.
JDRoundtree 08-01-06, 02:03 PM	Originally posted by Malignor "The monk is. The caster must prepare and then do. Pigeonholed potential is not equal to "actual". Comparing theoretical things does not provide valid results for real circumstances. All you can trust is the playtest. Stare at the numbers and books all you want... you'll just learn how to build characters and argue rules, not compare apples to oranges." I agree wholeheartedly. We're doing a lot of "but if this, if this, if this" Let's "if" this. My 20th level monk started with an 18 wisdom and put all but one of his stat increases into it. His Wisdom is a 22. He has a +6 periapt of wisdom and so he has a 28. So, the Save DC for stunning fist is 28, but with my Ki straps it's 33. You've got a base Fort save as a 20th level fighter of +12. Sure, you could have an amulet of health, but almost everyone's example has used the amulet slot for natural armor. So, let's be generous and give you an 18 cons (since the builds also had the fighter dump all their stats into strength) You need to roll a 17 or higher to not be stunned. 20% chance. I like my odds. Yes, I may not have as high a base attack bonus as you, and yes, your strength may be out the yin yang, but what good are you if you loose all of your attacks for the round? NOTE: This is predicated on a big "If" Yes, the monk has to hit, and yes his BAB is not as good as a fighter's, but he attacks 3 times at his highest BAB with no penalties. Maybe you save, maybe you don't. I can try it TWENTY TIMES! If you fail your save on the first attempt I can turn the attack into a flurry, and then I am at a bonus to hit you due to your stunned status, therebye whittling down that oh so important gap between Monk and Fighter BAB's. What do you do next round? if you bend down to pick up your sword I might stun you again (and we know you dropped your shield if you were holding it, therebye reducing those celebrated advantages even further). I can then flurry again. If you don't, I can hit you and then use my superior mobility to GET AWAY from you. If you pick up the weapon you don't have the full round to charge, and I've only got to go 35 of my 45 foot tumble speed to get away. Gonna draw a bow? I can charge you and use flying kick (a move that also drops the fighter/monk BAB gap to 3 instead of 5) and then do extra damage AND TRY TO STUN YOU AGAIN. I may have gotten in two flurries and a charge in the time it's taken you to drop your sword, pick it up and then maybe draw a bow. A MONK IS MEANT TO FIGHT ON THEIR OWN TERMS, NOT SOMEONE ELSE'S. It's poor playing, IMHO, to have a wisdom based class decide to EVER go toe to toe with a fighter. You. Just. Don't. Do. It. Of COURSE the fighter's more powerful when the field is his. This was Malignor's point. Why is the mage buffed, but the monk isn't? If the monk and the fighter don't start out like a boxing match, the monk can close faster, and more effectively than the fighter. IF I DON'T STUN YOU, I'M NOT STICKING AROUND FOR THE FULL ATTACK! IF I do (it is, after all, a wisdom based skill on a wisdom based class) then I get to hit you a LOT before you respond again. If I hit you again and stun you, I'm sticking around for another flurry. It will have an effect after awhile. There are a MILLION ways for a fighter to beat what I've proposed, I'm not a moron, but the point is that the issue is not decided by toe to toe numbers. Any straight on comparison is based on an ASSUMPTION that is not given (the monk stands around to fight the fighter with the great sword) The monk's beauty is in tactical mastery of status and condition (tripped, prone, stunned, disarmed) and THEN applying the power that--rightly-so--is second to the major martial classes. Sounds kind of like the things someone with a high wisdom might do... Oh, and you're +5 vorpal keen flaming burst greatsword is nice. My +5 ki focus brilliant gauntlets are going to make that stunning fist land a LOT more. Enjoy that 20% chance of success. -Cheers to EVERYONE'S valid and well-thought points (all seriousness)
EpicLevel 08-01-06, 03:42 PM	Once again, I just have to say that I was comparing flat averages. I was not comparing builds, because there are any number of possible variations to both classes to maximize potential, minimize threats, etc. I apologize if my wording isn't as clear as I think it is. I'm not attacking the fighter as a class; I'm saying the monk, as a class, (that is, disregarding equipment, feats, buffs etc.) will do more damage than a Fighter of equal level. They have to, to be able to keep up with the fighter in frontline fighting when the Fighter is dropping creeps left and right. I'm not trying to say that the monk is better than the fighter at his job. I'm trying to say, as I stated before, that the monk is a more respectable melee combatant than most people give them credit for. I probably could have worded my comment better, but I hope you'll see I'm not trying to pick a fight with anybody.
Seerow 08-01-06, 03:57 PM	Once again, I just have to say that I was comparing flat averages. I was not comparing builds, because there are any number of possible variations to both classes to maximize potential, minimize threats, etc. And again, nothing posted thus far is anywhere close to being min-maxed. You could take a completely optimized Monk Build and still be suboptimal in damage compared to a mediocre fighter. I apologize if my wording isn't as clear as I think it is. I'm not attacking the fighter as a class; I'm saying the monk, as a class, (that is, disregarding equipment, feats, buffs etc.) will do more damage than a Fighter of equal level. They have to, to be able to keep up with the fighter in frontline fighting when the Fighter is dropping creeps left and right. And y'know, if you want to disreguard Feats, I disreguard the Monk's unarmed damage progression. You now get a d3 nonlethal unarmed strike, Fighter has a d8 Longsword and shield. If that's what you want to compare, ignore all class features and just say "Monk is good **** you" then we can all play that game. My build used exactly 11 feats, that's a Fighter's class features. So THAT is what you would compare to a level 20 Monk using all of his class features, not a Fighter standing there with a longsword and no knowledge of how to hold it. I'm not trying to say that the monk is better than the fighter at his job. I'm trying to say, as I stated before, that the monk is a more respectable melee combatant than most people give them credit for. But he's NOT A MELEE COMBATANT. Every post here involving the Monk being good that isn't yours is the spring attacking, stunning, grappling monk. The Monk isn't a melee combatant, and he shouldn't try to be. And you're flat out ignoring that by trying to say he can do a good job at it. He can't. I probably could have worded my comment better, but I hope you'll see I'm not trying to pick a fight with anybody. Picking a fight or not, you're putting for an incorrect assertion over and over. You have to expect somebody to say something.
Thorak 08-01-06, 04:43 PM	2 from Ring of Force Shield To be fair, a Ring of Force Shield has no ASF or armor check penalty. But you're still wearing a shield when it's activated. Which, by the RAW, counts against monks, same as if it were a Mithral Light Shield, save that it occupies that hand completely (since it's treated as a heavy shield). I agree wholeheartedly. We're doing a lot of "but if this, if this, if this" Let's "if" this. My 20th level monk started with an 18 wisdom and put all but one of his stat increases into it. His Wisdom is a 22. He has a +6 periapt of wisdom and so he has a 28. So, the Save DC for stunning fist is 28, but with my Ki straps it's 33. You've got a base Fort save as a 20th level fighter of +12. Sure, you could have an amulet of health, but almost everyone's example has used the amulet slot for natural armor. So, let's be generous and give you an 18 cons (since the builds also had the fighter dump all their stats into strength) You need to roll a 17 or higher to not be stunned. 20% chance. I like my odds. Unless his armor has Heavy Fortitude. Then your stunning fist goes "clank" 100% of the time. And we're not comparing in a duel situation, we're comparing their efficiency against the enemy. That's why I haven't been making comments like "even though we're close in damage, you've got less HP and will drop before I do." if you bend down to pick up your sword I might stun you again (and we know you dropped your shield if you were holding it, therebye reducing those celebrated advantages even further). I can then flurry again. You can't drop a shield. It's strapped to your arm. That's why it takes a move action to loose it. And you also assume I didn't have a locked gauntlet. It's such an easy piece of gear to use for someone who always wants to use the same weapon. In general, my fighters either have a locked gauntlet, or an easy backup. If you don't, I can hit you and then use my superior mobility to GET AWAY from you. And provoke an AoO, that could be used to Trip. Or Grapple, for that matter, if the Fighter's got IG. If you pick up the weapon you don't have the full round to charge, and I've only got to go 35 of my 45 foot tumble speed to get away. Gonna draw a bow? In that situation? Nope. Gonna ready an action to Trip you when you get within reach, or whatever my best tactic is based on my feat choices. Come'n get some, monky. I can charge you and use flying kick (a move that also drops the fighter/monk BAB gap to 3 instead of 5) and then do extra damage AND TRY TO STUN YOU AGAIN. Unless I Trip you, in which case you're on your back on the ground. Or I Grapple you. Or any of a bunch of other options. And heaven forbid the Fighter be mounted. Leadership makes for wonderful mounts. I may have gotten in two flurries and a charge in the time it's taken you to drop your sword, pick it up and then maybe draw a bow. If the Fighter is set up in exactly the way necessary to be vulnerable to all of that. A MONK IS MEANT TO FIGHT ON THEIR OWN TERMS, NOT SOMEONE ELSE'S. It's poor playing, IMHO, to have a wisdom based class decide to EVER go toe to toe with a fighter. You. Just. Don't. Do. It. Of COURSE the fighter's more powerful when the field is his. This was Malignor's point. The point is that I can make a Fighter who bests the Monk at any given combat-based tactic, while retaining better abilities in the rest. And we're using a Fighter because people say it's underpowered. If that's all the Fighter's got, and it's underpowered, and the monk can't outdo it, then the monk isn't a good warrior. Why is the mage buffed, but the monk isn't? Because mages can cast spells, and monks can't? If the monk and the fighter don't start out like a boxing match, the monk can close faster, and more effectively than the fighter. Unless the Fighter spent one of his oodles of feats on Leadership. A Pegasus is both faster than the monk, and is flying to boot. Faster, and more mobile than the monk. IF I DON'T STUN YOU, I'M NOT STICKING AROUND FOR THE FULL ATTACK! Then you're also provoking an AoO as you leave. IF I do (it is, after all, a wisdom based skill on a wisdom based class) then I get to hit you a LOT before you respond again. That's all well and good, and I've always said Monks are best maxxing wisdom and forgetting Strength entirely. But you're the first to argue that build. The others are arguing a high-Strength monk. If I hit you again and stun you, I'm sticking around for another flurry. With a low Strength, 2d10 damage isn't hurting a whole lot, if you can even hit the Fighter's AC, which at this level can easily be in the 40s, while wielding a greatsword. It will have an effect after awhile. No doubt. The question is what is the Fighter doing during that while? There are a MILLION ways for a fighter to beat what I've proposed, I'm not a moron, but the point is that the issue is not decided by toe to toe numbers. Any straight on comparison is based on an ASSUMPTION that is not given (the monk stands around to fight the fighter with the great sword) Because either he does, or he's Spring Attacking, in which case the Fighter starts using readied actions and does even better, because the monk's no longer using his Flurry, which is the only thing that gets him close to the Fighter's potential. Or he's run away, and the Fighter's won the battle. The monk's beauty is in tactical mastery of status and condition (tripped, prone, stunned, disarmed) and THEN applying the power that--rightly-so--is second to the major martial classes. They're only good at Tripping if they're as high-Strength as a Fighter. Which, as above, has issues, and being Prone doesn't stop the melee enemies from chewing you apart. And they're not good at Disarming, which is an opposed attack roll, and thus based on BAB. They've got Stunning, sure. But that's only really great for a high-Wis build, whose damage and to-hit suffers, and thus isn't great competing with melee types. Oh, and you're +5 vorpal keen flaming burst greatsword is nice. My +5 ki focus brilliant gauntlets are going to make that stunning fist land a LOT more. I'm just going to say here that monks and gauntlets is a murky mess right now. The FAQ both says they can and can't use them. And even the answer that says they can says they take a -4 nonproficiency penalty.
malignor 08-01-06, 06:09 PM	You realize that by going for Improved Trip, Spring Attack and so on, you're creating a MAD fighter, right? Suddenly his "massive strength compared to the monk" that some people claim isn't so massive. And just an aside, that AoO a fighter supposedly gets is a VERY rare thing. Any monk without tumble is a dumb monk. Cant zip past defenders to get the buffer in the back if you die en route from AoOs. And if you take Leadership, the Monk does too... he'll take for his cohort... a Wizard or Cleric that's big on buffs! Have fun playing with your Griffon - the monk-polymorphed-as-a-hippogriff sure will.
Seerow 08-01-06, 06:36 PM	You realize that by going for Improved Trip, Spring Attack and so on, you're creating a MAD fighter, right? Suddenly his "massive strength compared to the monk" that some people claim isn't so massive. Please. The monk wants at least a 16 Wisdom, in point buy that's 10 points. A Fighter can get a 13 in both Dex and Intelligence for that. (And the Fighter who wants more than 13 base dex is rare) now the Fighter can match the Monk point for point in con, and put everything else in Strength. The Fighter will have at least a two point advantage in BASE strength. Then there's the part where inherent bonuses are expensive, and a Monk wants inherent Wisdom and Dex before strength. If he doesn't, he's looking at an AC that simply isn't stopping any level appropriate attacks, so he's back to skirmishing. I've never argued against the Monk's skirmishing potential though, I've argued that he can't outdamage the Fighter. And if you take Leadership, the Monk does too... he'll take for his cohort... a Wizard or Cleric that's big on buffs! Have fun playing with your Griffon - the monk-polymorphed-as-a-hippogriff sure will. Except the Monk is already a bit strapped for feats isn't he? But I'll admit leadership for a mount is stupid, I'd much rather have a level 18 Cleric following me around. (But then, I'd rather be the level 20 Cleric with a level 18 Wizard... hrm....)
Argaud 08-01-06, 07:08 PM	Then he holds action to throw a javelin for when the wizard casts his next spell. Or he picks another target. Or any number of actions. When did he cast fly? Did he memorize fly? Why can't the monk be buffed or have potions? Why does the wizard suddenly have precognition? Did the wizard win initiative, use abilities or skills to know that this is a monk and this is what he's capable of? When did this turn into a 1-on-1 fight? I thought it was a battle. Honestly, after mid-levels the wizard is –always- flying thanks to the Overland Flight spell (which is core, not from any crazy splatbook) and therefore he can’t be tripped.
Thorak 08-01-06, 07:53 PM	You realize that by going for Improved Trip, Spring Attack and so on, you're creating a MAD fighter, right? No, not really. It's my general assumption that a Fighter is going to want a 13 Dex, to max out his armor. And likely a 13 Int, for Combat Expertise et al. The Monk needs as high as possible a Strength, Dex, Con, and Wis. The Fighter doesn't need more than 13 in two of his 4 needed stats. 18, 13, 14, 13, 8, 8 is a 32 point buy that fills the bills. And if I'm playing in less than 32 point buy, I can go with a 16 Strength, or not bother trying to get Improved Trip or Disarm. Since that latter is entirely optional. My point was that there are multiple tactics a Fighter can take. Suddenly his "massive strength compared to the monk" that some people claim isn't so massive. It's that it starts as high as the Monk's, he's more likely to put all his points from leveling into it, and it's not competing with a Monk's Belt for his belt slot. That's why his Strength is likely to be higher. And just an aside, that AoO a fighter supposedly gets is a VERY rare thing. Any monk without tumble is a dumb monk. Cant zip past defenders to get the buffer in the back if you die en route from AoOs. Okay then. You're in range for me to Charge. And if you take Leadership, the Monk does too... he'll take for his cohort... a Wizard or Cleric that's big on buffs! Have fun playing with your Griffon - the monk-polymorphed-as-a-hippogriff sure will. Point being that the Fighter has so many feats, taking Leadership is dead easy. And there are other means to get hardy mounts. A Stone Horse with Horsehoes of Speed can keep pace with a monk, for instance. And if we want to consider two of the other martial classes, Rangers and Paladins, they get good mounts built-in. The point is that speed is not a massive irreplaceable advantage of the monk. Except the Monk is already a bit strapped for feats isn't he? But I'll admit leadership for a mount is stupid, I'd much rather have a level 18 Cleric following me around. (But then, I'd rather be the level 20 Cleric with a level 18 Wizard... hrm....) I never claimed it to be the ultimate cheese option with the feat. Just a valid one, one a DM is more likely to okay, and only one of several ways for a Fighter to get a mount that has some survivability.
malignor 08-01-06, 08:00 PM	Please. The monk wants at least a 16 Wisdom, in point buy that's 10 points. A Fighter can get a 13 in both Dex and Intelligence for that. (And the Fighter who wants more than 13 base dex is rare) now the Fighter can match the Monk point for point in con, and put everything else in Strength. The Fighter will have at least a two point advantage in BASE strength.Well when it comes to MAD characters, I never get 16s to start. Certainly a 15 (so it can be bumped to 16 at a X/4 level) but I plug my points into 12-14. For a monk, 28-point... Str13, Dex13, Con12, Int12, Wis15, Cha10. Stat increases will be to even out the odds, in order of necessity depending on the game. Likely Strength first, to boost grapple, trip, attack bonus and damage. Then Wisdom for AC, Will save, spot/listen and stun DC. Then Dex for AC, initiative, reflex and tumbling. For level 16 and 20, either more strength or more wisdom, or even more Con, depending on what's needed the most. The big thing for Monks is potions and stat-boosting wonderous items. The Monk's belt is nice and all... okay, who am I kidding? It's crap. I'd rather have more strength for grapple/hit/damage/trip action. Better climb/jump/swim don't hurt either.Then there's the part where inherent bonuses are expensive, and a Monk wants inherent Wisdom and Dex before strength. If he doesn't, he's looking at an AC that simply isn't stopping any level appropriate attacks, so he's back to skirmishing. I've never argued against the Monk's skirmishing potential though, I've argued that he can't outdamage the Fighter.Again, it depends on what you want. With a lower AC, you're getting a higher something else. I've come to realize that the Monk CAN have a good AC, but at high opportunity cost. Far better to just rely on things like a Cloak of Displacement or similar instead, and focus on grapple/trip/stun power and flexible offense options. The rest takes care of itself as your levels progress. Except the Monk is already a bit strapped for feats isn't he? But I'll admit leadership for a mount is stupid, I'd much rather have a level 18 Cleric following me around. (But then, I'd rather be the level 20 Cleric with a level 18 Wizard... hrm....)Leadership is a great feat for anyone to take, no matter how gimped they are for feats... and a monk essentially gets 4 for free (improved unarmed strike, plus 3 bonus feats) by level 6. Honestly, the best feats a monk can take are Power Attack and other little tweaks like Improved Initiative or the Endurance/Diehard setup (oh no, only a standard actionSELF HEAL!) or Run can be fun too (+4 more to running leaps, outrun most steeds). But having a personal buff-bot, or even a rogue (a halfling with UMD and an Efficient Quiver of wands and Quickdraw ... Enlarge Person, Invisibility, Cure Light Wounds, Ray of Frost & Acid Splash for sneak attacks in 30', Ray of Enfeeblement for the big guys, etc... and a bunch of silver/coldIron shortspears for miscellaneous sneak-attacking in melee or range) Can really turn a Monk into a dangerous liability to the enemy. EDIT: Ummm, hey, Thorak, you wanna clean that up? The quoting in there looks kinda confusing.
solbergb 08-01-06, 08:14 PM	Honestly, after mid-levels the wizard is –always- flying thanks to the Overland Flight spell (which is core, not from any crazy splatbook) and therefore he can’t be tripped. Overland flight has a stall speed (it is only average maneuverability). Most wizards are not circling in the air 24x7. Plus not all are encountered in places with no ceilings. Any indoor encounter pretty much takes away the "Flight = I am immune to melee" thing. But then, my monk (and heck any other fighter type character, although the heavy armor bozos do it slower than the chain shirt brigade) can fly at level 12+ if he needs to with a relatively cheap (for that level) potion....and before level 12 the L5 slots or spells known are at enough of a premium that not every arcanist is going to be able to fly on demand. Overland flight is slower than my potion+boots of haste to zip the fly speed up to 90. If an arcane uses his actions to speed up and avoid me, then, well, he's not zapping the party. Still a win. Yes, I have encountered flying foes, with monks and with non-monk fighters. But it isn't actually all that common, and the remedy is obvious (drink the potion, or wait for the buff on you or the debuff on the flier, then kill them)
Lady Maedhros 08-01-06, 08:31 PM	It seems to me we've gotten away from the OP's question. How do you play a monk, and enjoy it? Well. The number one, most important thing is to know your role. My very first character was a half-orc monk. I was just a little nooblet then, and thought I was going to be this cool, off-beat warrior who laughed when the other orcs threw their axes around and then punched them in the face. I was very, very wrong. But eventually I did learn to have fun with the character. Rule one: I rolled incredibly lucky - that's really important. I was able to have a 12 Int even after the racial hit, so I was able to keep up six skills (max Jump, Tumble, Balance, Climb, and split Hide and Move Silently). This made me mostly autonomous, allowing me to keep up with the sorc with levitate, the druid with wildshape and the dwarven defender with Flying Boots of DM's Girlfriend without having to beg for spells all the time. Rule two: I stayed away from the dwarven defender. Whatever she was fighting, I was somewhere else - chasing people down or climbing to get to the archers or whatever. If the group split, I was in the group that she wasn't in. This made it easier to live with the massive damage differential between us, because I could basically ignore whatever she was doing and focus only on what I was up to. Rule three: I found a combat tactic. Namely, stand in the middle of the druid's flame strike, take no damage, finish off the stragglers. This was fun because it was something only I could do; it also reinforced the two of us as a team, ensuring I always got my daily greater magic fang. Rule four: I got special treatment from my DM. We talked and I convinced him to let me have a magic weapon (a pair of claws) that would use my unarmed damage but also be enchantable. This allowed me to have a prayer of keeping up any kind of decent defense and offense at the same time. Rule five: This is the most important one - I figured out my role. We didn't have a rogue, and I was basically immune to traps, so I ran around setting them off, and that's how our group got past them. It wasn't glamorous, but it was what I could do. Thankfully, our druid was lazy, so I was also the default scout, as the most able to sneak and most able to get away when things went bad. It was good of her to allow me that. So that's the secret to enjoying a monk, right there: Don't group with a full group. If your party already has a rogue and a druid or ranger, don't play a monk - you're officially worse than someone else at everything you do in that group, so you'll be frustrated often. If you do play a monk, make sure you have good communication with your DM, and remind him to throw spellcasters at you so you can at least enjoy your defensive ability. If you're playing with a character like a druid, rogue or ranger, make sure you talk to that player and see if they're willing to emphasize the things you can't do - combat or casting over scouting, or party face over acrobat - to leave you room to take up the slack. So there you go, that's my best advice for enjoying a monk. My other advice would be to not actually play a "monk", but to go fighter with IUS and PrC into reaping mauler or something. It's generally a lot more fun.
Argaud 08-01-06, 09:09 PM	Overland flight has a stall speed (it is only average maneuverability). Most wizards are not circling in the air 24x7. Plus not all are encountered in places with no ceilings. Any indoor encounter pretty much takes away the "Flight = I am immune to melee" thing. I was noting merely that a wizard can't be tripped at mid-high level. he won't be out of reach all the time (actually, since most fights are indoors, he will be within reach most of the time) but he can't be tripped anyways. Fliers can't be tripped if they don't rely in wings to fly.
Goblinchaser 08-01-06, 09:15 PM	I thouroughly Enjoy the monk, while you will not keep up in damage, every party needs a level head... witht he monks wisdom, you make a great voice of the direction of a group. I keep reminding myself that it is a Role-Playing... Not roll-playing game... The feat combonations are limitless with or with out all the splat books. the stunning fist, with spring attact, or even mobility at lower levels allow for a stunning of foe that the fighter is toe to toe with... Coupled with Improved trip, or disarm, while that Fighter may still be a threat to you without a weapon, he is not much of a threat to your party fighter, tactics as such save that party fighter from atleast one round of attacks, and might allow for an AoO as the traget attempts to retreive is precious weapon. That is if you have not ran off with it yet.... When I run my games I encourage Player to play what they want not so much ow much damage they can do... if I have a party full of mages... I will adjust my campaign and encounters to challenge them... as such if I have a bunch of damage munchkins... welcome to the slugfest... because you will get atleast one encounter per level that will be take about 50% or more of your resouces.. regardless of CR...
Seerow 08-01-06, 09:19 PM	I thouroughly Enjoy the monk, while you will not keep up in damage, every party needs a level head... witht he monks wisdom, you make a great voice of the direction of a group. I keep reminding myself that it is a Role-Playing... Not roll-playing game... We don't need that kind of elitism here.
malignor 08-01-06, 09:22 PM	It seems to me we've gotten away from the OP's question. How do you play a monk, and enjoy it? Well. The number one, most important thing is to know your role. [snip] So there you go, that's my best advice for enjoying a monk. My other advice would be to not actually play a "monk", but to go fighter with IUS and PrC into reaping mauler or something. It's generally a lot more fun.Not bad. Onething to point out about the Ranger, Druid and Rogue in the group. Even if you're a monk, conspire on your builds. Not only should you communicate with your DM, but also your players. Build yourself to work with these guys instead of replace them. The monk has the power to synergize under every circumstance. If you have a rogue, the two of you can team up to kill off opponents really quickly (Monk tumbles behind & trips, rogue sneak attacks the flanked prone opponent). The Wizard can turn you into a combat monster with some Polymorph. When you have good teamwork, the Monk shines just as brightly as the rest of the group. At least that's what I've found every time one was played (and with no DM special treatment). When you have a bunch of solo artists, the Monk is rather so-so.
Yue Ryong 08-01-06, 09:56 PM	Time and again, I see some idealistic young monk supporters pop up, desperately supporting the increased Unarmed Strike damage as a viable alternative to actual weapons... and time and again, I see them cast down by the solid undeniability of the numbers. I refuse to let it deter me! I shall keep playing Monk's to the end! In spite of their inferiority! So as to make them actual viable choices, I will only play them in Gestalt games where I will combine them with Fighters or, since the advent of Tome of Battle, Crusaders.
Thorak 08-01-06, 10:18 PM	It seems to me we've gotten away from the OP's question. How do you play a monk, and enjoy it? To be fair, the OP's question was "So what I'm wondering is, has anyone played a good fun monk character and how did you do that without feeling underpowered and weak or dying in almost every combat?" Enjoying it is in there, but so is "without feeling underpowered and weak or dying in almost every combat." That's what we're dealing with numerically; why he feels weak compared to the melee types. Once that's firm, we can discuss how to not feal weak. My suggestion, lest anyone think I'm just a naysayer, is to go with a high-Wis build, get the Stunning Fist feats like Pain Touch, and use Spring Attack if possible. Forget Flurry or Decisive Strike; both are full attacks, meaning you can't use your movement at the same time. You aren't going to deal competitive damage, so use your Stunning Fist and such to disable opponents for the melee types to then abuse thoroughly as only they can. If an enemy caster is stupid, take them out. Etc. Skirmish, in short.
Fallenangel359 08-01-06, 10:27 PM	Improved natural attack, and 20 use magic device ends up letting you use battle fists which can be enchanted just aswell as any weapon, and bumps your 2d10 at level 20 to rediculous levels :P Battlefists = much better than actual weapons
Lady Maedhros 08-02-06, 01:48 AM	When you have a bunch of solo artists, the Monk is rather so-so. Also very true. However, food for thought, what other core class would you say suffers so badly from that? And I don't mean in the sense of "can run an adventure solo," because obviously that's basically just the divine casters full stop, but in the sense of "if we're a bunch of putzes with no sense of teamwork, which of us is therefore unable to meaningfully contribute despite our best efforts?" The only one I can think of is maybe the fighter, at the high end of the game. The rogue can always feint, if no one is willing to flank with him. Enjoying it is in there, but so is "without feeling underpowered and weak or dying in almost every combat." Well, yes. That's why one of my points was "roll well" and another was "try not to pay attention to the fighter." It's easier to overcome feelings of underpoweredness when you do your best to avoid comparisons. :pbbbtt: Also, taking advantage of the few things you do have, like being able to stand in the middle of a flame strike and take no damage. That will help you to not feel as underpowered as you are. As for the "not dying in every combat," that's the "play a full BAB character" piece of the advice. :bored:
malignor 08-02-06, 10:18 AM	Pretty much. When playing a Monk, you have to think just as strategically as a Rogue or Bard does, because you're somewhere between them and a Ranger on the battlefield, but with your own unique twists. Pick your targets, synergize with team-mates, focus on debilitating the enemy force, not out-fighting it.
solbergb 08-02-06, 11:23 AM	I was noting merely that a wizard can't be tripped at mid-high level. he won't be out of reach all the time (actually, since most fights are indoors, he will be within reach most of the time) but he can't be tripped anyways. Fliers can't be tripped if they don't rely in wings to fly. That's why you also have grapple and stunning fist. Either can put a real cramp in a flying wizard if you can stick it.
solbergb 08-02-06, 11:34 AM	Also very true. However, food for thought, what other core class would you say suffers so badly from that? And I don't mean in the sense of "can run an adventure solo," because obviously that's basically just the divine casters full stop, but in the sense of "if we're a bunch of putzes with no sense of teamwork, which of us is therefore unable to meaningfully contribute despite our best efforts?" : Depends on the challenges. Actually this is the thing that really differentiates all the non-caster classes - which types of challenges they do well in without teamwork. All of the warrior classes benefit from teamwork. All need some help in coping with magic, dealing with mobility challenges, standing in the front line and blocking, hitting the target, hampering the target with tactical tricks and doing damage. A monk, in a party of individualists, may contribute very strongly in the encounter vs a bunch of archers in trees (by getting among them via jump/climb/balance, stunning, tripping or disarming or even grappling them), while his 12 dexterity tower shield full plate buddy is cursing, dropping his tower shield, getting out his bow and engaging in an unequal missile duel with folks optomized for that situation. Then later that tin can fighter is standing bored holding off the construct that can instantly squish any party member but is too dumb to switch targets, while the monk doesn't dare get in range and maybe even lacks the right DR to hurt it. (my monk does ok vs constructs, because I have consistently invested in anti-construct stuff but many do not). Only the casters can go it alone, and really only the divine casters or bards do it well. Everyone else assumes that the team will work together to be greater than sum of its parts. One frustration I have with monk threads is that a monk strength is that it is a great platform for buffs (the buffs are not wasted when someone targets a "weak" save and removes him, he gets more attacks on a single "Weapon" than anyone else and he can carry those buffs to the folks that are most vulnerable to them while being fairly self-sufficient "Behind the enemy linse) - but every time I mention that it gets dismissed as "but that isn't a monk power. That is polymorph or spikes or fires of purity...not the monk" Well, no, actually the ability to use all your class abilties while polymorphed is a fairly unique strength of the monk, and the ability to hit something four times with a spiked nunchuck when hasted at leel 8 is also a fairly unique strength. But you only see that in a team situation. Heck, something as simple as not getting a GMW or GMF from the divine caster can significantly affect a monk's melee contribution to the party, because he both needs the attack mods more than the fighter to hit consistently (and he doesn't get the "free" masterwork attack bonus) and does the damage mod 5 times instead of 3 times.
perdera 08-02-06, 12:18 PM	To be fair, a Ring of Force Shield has no ASF or armor check penalty. But you're still wearing a shield when it's activated. Which, by the RAW, counts against monks, same as if it were a Mithral Light Shield, save that it occupies that hand completely (since it's treated as a heavy shield). Excellent point, I missed that. I'll correct that in-game. Thanks.
Thorak 08-02-06, 03:33 PM	That's why you also have grapple and stunning fist. Either can put a real cramp in a flying wizard if you can stick it. The problem is catching the flying wizard. Any magical means are likely just as fast as the wizard. And he's got things like Dimension Door for even greater mobility than you. A wizard on the ground is a stupid wizard. We had a wiz in our last game who made himself Boots of Flying for exactly this reason. At lower levels, Levitate. The only exceptions were inside, and inside, generally speaking, one of two things are true. Either the room's big enough that flying overhead is an option, or it's small and cramped and the other PCs get in the way of the enemy adequately. My biggest issue with the monk is that it's clearly designed to go up against casters, but it hasn't been given adequate tools for the task. Plenty of defensive ones, but not nearly enough aggressive ones. But this is more an issue of caster power than monk power, too, IMHO.
malignor 08-02-06, 04:26 PM	The problem is catching the flying wizard. [snip] My biggest issue with the monk is that it's clearly designed to go up against casters, but it hasn't been given adequate tools for the task. Plenty of defensive ones, but not nearly enough aggressive ones. But this is more an issue of caster power than monk power, too, IMHO.That makes sense. However, - a Monk with a Javelin +1 of Returning may be equipped to handle that issue in a straightforward manner and at least be able to do damage (windwall not entirely effective against javelins). - a Monk who has the means to fly or levitate can use his high ground speed to get close to the wizard, then fly/levitate. - a Monk polymorphed into a Dragon, Harpy or Hippogriff can take care of the situation (requires a buff, but oh, man, there's nobody better to polymorph) This takes care of SOME of the situations (though I'm sure someone will pipe in with another bunch of "what ifs" to counter my "what ifs"... which turns into the same stupid back&forth that never proves anything). If there were suggest a change to Monk, I would do one or more of the following... - make Abundant Step a move action to perform (so the Monk can D-door right into a grapple or stun before falling) and usable more than once per day. - Allow the Monk to cast Jump as a supernatural ability once or twice a day... maybe starting at level 3. The enhancement bonus would increase as if it were cast by a caster. - Allow the option to trade Abundant Step for Air Walk instead.
Thorak 08-02-06, 06:11 PM	That makes sense. However, - a Monk with a Javelin +1 of Returning may be equipped to handle that issue in a straightforward manner and at least be able to do damage (windwall not entirely effective against javelins). Do I really need to post the ranged options Wizards and Sorcerors have? Summons, orb spells, etc, etc. - a Monk who has the means to fly or levitate can use his high ground speed to get close to the wizard, then fly/levitate. Doesn't help if the Wizard's more than 60 feet up. He'll see you coming, and move away next round. Heck, you're probably going to end up using a double move anyway. 5' step and cast Dimension Door across the battlefield, or what have you. - a Monk polymorphed into a Dragon, Harpy or Hippogriff can take care of the situation (requires a buff, but oh, man, there's nobody better to polymorph) I find it intriguing that you're claiming a Monk can use a Wizard spell to defeat a Wizard. Who is far more likely to be able to do this to himself in the first place. Not to mention, what if he goes Invisible? Good luck finding the invisible flying mage, when he moves after casting a spell every time. Especially when none of your class abilities let you see invisible. This takes care of SOME of the situations (though I'm sure someone will pipe in with another bunch of "what ifs" to counter my "what ifs"... which turns into the same stupid back&forth that never proves anything). Well, so far it's proven that Monks need to resort to a friendly Wizard to beat a Wizard. Which says a lot.
malignor 08-02-06, 06:34 PM	... what the heck makes you think I'm comparing a monk to a wizard? I'm just saying there are options for the monk against a flyer. Bragging and flaunting the obvious offensive power of a wizard is completely off-topic. But since you wanna throw around a bunch of pointless "what-if" challenges, I'm game :D. Do I really need to post the ranged options Wizards and Sorcerors have? Summons, orb spells, etc, etc.And this means the monk is useless how? It says nothing about monks, and plenty about casters... who I might add can potentially be outdone when a ranged combatant holds action to hit the wizard in mid-cast to disrupt the spell.Doesn't help if the Wizard's more than 60 feet up. He'll see you coming, and move away next round. Heck, you're probably going to end up using a double move anyway. 5' step and cast Dimension Door across the battlefield, or what have you.Theory, theory, theory. Pity, that any short-range spells (summons, rays, etc) are useless when so far away. Pity, that a wiz just lost a round of action to the monk without even being stunned (by double moving), which is playing right into the monk's tactics. Meanwhile, that round, the wiz's goons just got hammered a little harder without his help. Good job, monk.Who is far more likely to be able to do this to himself in the first place. Not to mention, what if he goes Invisible? Good luck finding the invisible flying mage, when he moves after casting a spell every time. Especially when none of your class abilities let you see invisible.So the primadonna wizard turns himself into a hippogriff instead of a Monk? So now he can fly or try to fight with that awesome 1/2 BAB and ultra-d4 hitdie and killer 1/3 Fort save, but can't cast spells or use any equipment. Great job, primadonna. Never mind that teamwork would have been far more useful. Enlarge Person and Polymorph do far more for a group's power when cast on a monk than when cast on a wizard (Monk is arguably the best class to recieve a polymorph). Synergy... think synergy and teamwork. Invisibility is easily countered. Hold that javelin to throw at the source of the next visible spell (like lightning bolt, fireball, rays, magic missile, etc). The mage MAY have the right spells in the list/repertoire to do this unseen, which are usually save-based anyway. Again, the monk just removed the mage's options. Should a spell be cast, javelin is let fly and when hits, causes drops of blood, which are visible, and a javelin sticking in the mage, which is also visible. Maybe having a couple sling bullets coated in flour or tar or paint would leave a spot on em too.Well, so far it's proven that Monks need to resort to a friendly Wizard to beat a Wizard. Which says a lot.Need? No. Useful? Yes. Equipment? Usually. Especially if the caster in the group is a selfish prick who doesn't look at the big picture, which will inevitably cause deaths in the party.
Goblinchaser 08-02-06, 07:22 PM	We don't need that kind of elitism here. The comment was not about elitism, more of style of Play, if the monk dont fit the style you want then try someting different... Beyond that I will not further comment....
solbergb 08-02-06, 07:36 PM	Wizards have many abilities. But they only have one set of actions a round. If the monk trades his actions for wizard actions, the party is usually ahead of the game, even if nothing else happens. But usually something does happen, and the gets chased down and killed. My monk has killed more wizards in level 1-12 than all his other party members combined, and he is in a very diverse mix of randomly mustered parties. Most of those kills were solo, the vast majority of the rest had one key spell tossed on him....silence. Maybe all wizards I meet are stupid. Or maybe in the real world, wizards aren't omniscient, fully buffed with round/minute per level spells 24x7, always are expecting a monk, etc. I've killed some that had the wrong contingency. I've killed divine casters who got their freedom of movement dispelled. I've killed some with grapple defenses that couldn't handle being silenced and tripped (usually divine casters...and no, you won't have a rod in your hands very long if you try to do silent spell that way). About half had minimal or no buffs running because we got the drop on them as a party, or they didn't have silent spell and didn't want to tip us off by casting, or they didn't have the right spells prepared that day. In one case there was a cleric buffed to the nines but just forgot freedom of movement. (bad writing maybe, but he had defenses against damn near everything else but being tripped and grapped...he even had silent spell options and a good selection of non-component, non-focus spells). In another case the team (cleric, sorcerer, two thugs) were buffed and prepped for a fight they'd just won, and then they had to fight us. The buffs helped, since they were already cast....but they were set up subtly wrong for team on team encounter vs a team-on-one ambush. Not that many were encountered outdoors. Those that were, tended to start on the ground, because in the air you can be seen from great distances (no cover or concealment). I can count on one hand the number of arcanists that worked exclusively from long range...those are a PITA. Luckily I can dimension door now, and bring a couple party members with me. Mostly though, they lost because the EL system means that if you fight equal numbers, they're usually weaker than you. If he's better than you, there is only one or two of him, so you can gang up on him (thus doing actions like air walk on the monk isn't getting you behind in actions, cause you have two to his one). If parties routinely fought party level+4 encounters (that is a fair fight in D&D) the monk's job would be a lot harder. But then so would the caster's job, and the tin-can fighter's job. Also the campaign would end every other combat, since EL+4 is essentially a coin toss. The reality is though, the way D&D is structured and balanced, that weak opponents abound, or you fight a few strong opponents. So someone like a monk who can get around the melee blockers to the vulnerable enemy, will drop them quick and their countermeasures will either be ineffectual or insufficient.
Nephlite 08-02-06, 09:22 PM	Maybe all wizards I meet are stupid. Or maybe in the real world, wizards aren't omniscient, fully buffed with round/minute per level spells 24x7, always are expecting a monk, etc. Anyone else fine humor in this. Apparently, solbergb fought wizards in real life! :rofl:
scienceman47 08-02-06, 09:43 PM	Actually, im doubtful about the ability a wizard to obliterate the monk. Sure, a wizard has orb spells, but did he prepare them? And one or two are bound to miss, monks have good touch AC. A wizard has a limited spell selection, and not a great deal of room for bad prepares, and there are a lot of spells that are less than effective against a monk. Furthermore, a monk that does get to the wizards spellbook slash spell comp pouch slash grapples the wizard when he doesnt have the freedom of movement spell up basically wins. Now, I'm not saying the battle goes in the favor of monk, wizard still probably steals a win. All at the cost of an unreasonable amount of resources and effort and considerable danger if the proper counters are either not prepared or not up. The monk needs just few more resources in the form of class abilities and items, and a decent wizard killer is born. Of course, a sorceror with eschew materials always has the right spell for the job. Sorceror ForTheWin.
solbergb 08-03-06, 12:10 PM	Anyone else fine humor in this. Apparently, solbergb fought wizards in real life! :rofl: Damn my secret life as an occult slayer in Santa Cruz is out! You wouldn't believe how many vampires we get here! Seriously "at the table in real life games" of course :) As opposed to theoretical "angel on head of pins discussed on message board" discussions of what might happen. I agree...sorcerers are more dangerous to my monk than wizards most of the time because as a rule they're better prepared for the unexpected. Assuming the DM designed them with a decent spell/metamagic mix, which is about a 50/50 thing in my experience (the other half tend to look like warmages with reduced spell list plus fly....ok for a one-off encounter I guess, but not if the party brings something unusual to the table)
(TD)Faber 08-04-06, 09:07 AM	Just make this monk :P STR: 2nd DEX: 3d----\ CON: 3d----whatever you like best INT: 5th WIS: 1st CHA: 6th For race, ofcourse human is good, or zenythri of the MM2. It helps with the multiple ability scores. It gets +2STR, +2DEX, +2WIS and -2CHA. once per day true strike. Favored class monk :P. BUT LA +1. Then for feats: LVL 1: impr. grapple and stunning fist LVL 2: combat reflexes LVL 3: weakening touch <---this one rules LVL 6: impr. Trip and sun school (sun school can be devastating) LVL 9: rapid stunning LVL 12: rapid stunning LVL 15: whatever you like just like at LVL 18 This build is mean, but to make it evil get the right wondrous item'/rings/potions: Monk's belt ki straps (sword and fist) gloves of fearsome grip (sword and fist) ring of shocking blows (+1d8 +3 on damage on every hit is rules :P) A lot of flaming fist (sword and fist) and enlarge person potions These items are expensive, but they will all make you worth you while :P
solbergb 08-04-06, 11:58 AM	The above is a pretty good stunning fist oriented design. This is an alternate approach, more focused on tactical fighting and flurry damage, but not dumping AC or stun fist either. STr #1, Wis#2, Dex/Con #3 (and similar usually), int #5, Cha dumped Often this takes a strong race, like wood elf or half orc (depending on your dex/con preferences). Stun fist builds are more feat intensive and less strength intensive so often like being human L1: stunning fist, improved grapple L2: combat reflexes L3: improved natural attack L6: improved trip, power attack L9: close quarters combat L12: sun school martial arts (timed to coincide with Abundant Leap) L15, L18 - more fighter oriented feats (TWF, quickdraw, brutal throw, reach weapon proficiency, or whatever suits you) This build will have barbarian AC in the low levels, TWF Rogue or archer AC in the mid levels and fairly tanklike AC once the 36k statboost items seem cheap in the higher levels. It emphasizes strength because that powers the flurry damage, the flurry to-hit, the grapple and the trip attack, but doesn't neglect the other three stats that provide good saves, power stun fist, armor class and hitpoints. It's a solid all around build and I've seen others use this sort of approach very effectively (of course not how I actually built my monk, because it didn't fit the character I had in mind or the challenge I had put to myself of playing a monk with strong muscles and weak ki - but it is pretty similar. My guy swapped wisdom for int, stun fist for deflect arrows, INA for hold the line and power attack for great zeal plus squeezed out a touch more strength than the balanced build described above. He still works, but I have to be even more careful than is usual with a monk when forced into a slugfest)
valdreg 08-04-06, 07:23 PM	Scroll of Caster Lv. 20 G. Magic Fang - 3(spell level)*20(caster level)*25 = 1,500 GP Scroll of Caster Lv. 20 Permancey w/ 1500 XP - 5(spell level)*20(caster level)*25 + (5*1500)xp = 10,000 GP +5 Attack & Damage for less then 1/4 of what the fighter pays for it - Priceless Next someone asked for a monk to break 200- damage a round. Human Monk 20 - SRD only Stats - 28 pnt. buy STR -14 (28) [14 base +4 levels +6 Belt +4 Manual] DEX -14 (24) [14 base +6 gloves + 4 Manual] CON -14 (18) [14 base +4 Manual] INT -10 WIS -14 (24) [14 base +6 gloves +3 Tome + 1 Level] CHA -10 Feats 1 - [Stunning Fist], , (Open), (Open) 2 - [Deflect Arrows] 3 - (Open) 6 - INA, [Imp. Trip] 9 - (Open) 12 - (Open) 15 - (Open) 18 - (Open) Plenty of Open Feats Right? Equipment- 11,500 Above Scroll Combo 36,000 Belt of Giants Strength +6 36,000 Peript of Wisdom +6 36,000 Gloves of Dex +6 110,000 Manual of Bodily Health +4 110,000 Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 110,000 Manual of Quickness of Action +4 82,500 Tome of Understanding +3 4,000 Continus Item of [I]Enlarge Person 64,000 Bracers of Armor +8 Total spent 600,000 gp Total Left for Other stuff 180,000 Fill in what you want Full Attack 28/28/28/23/18 Unarmed Dice 2d10 (base) -> 4d8 (Large size) -> 6d8 (INA) Unarmed Damage 6d8 (base) + 9 (Str) + 5 (GMF) Avg. Damage 41 5 Attacks* 41 Damage each = 205 Damage a Round AC 39 [10 base + 9 Dex + 9 Wis + 4 Level + 8 Bracers - 1 size] Note About The Scrolls The Scroll of GMF can become a potion for 1,500 more. The Scroll of Permancy should be cast on you by the partys wizard. No wizard? Just pay the local one 1,000 GP to cast it for you.
OneWinged4ngel 08-04-06, 09:35 PM	Right now I'm playing a Monk/Drunken Master in a campaign with a Ranger/Rogue, a Paladin, and a Grimilkin (NPC). My stats break down like this. Str 16 Con 14 Dex18 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 12 That's a standard 30 point buy system. I've got good scores in Dex and Wis to increase my AC and Attack (weapon finesse), Str so I can deal more damage, and a decent score in Con to get more HP. We're only level 2 so we haven't had much time to buy stuff. I find myself right along-side the Paladin in direct combat (the Ranger sits there and snipes from the rear) taking down enemies on par with the Paladin (I duel wield Nunchaku and a Handaxe), and at other times Sneaking in behind the enemy, and doing some stealth stuff with the Rogue. I dont have a lot of skill points to spend (I'm human so that helps a bit), but my +4 bonus from Dex helps out a lot in sneaking. THe skill points I have are put into Tumble and skills for the Drunken Master. A Low-Level Monk can be a bit frustrating (seeing the Paladin deal 2d6 + whatever for his Smites and the Rogue dealing 2d6 twice cause he duel wields and me only dealing 1 or 2d6 when i'm lucky) but in the end you get a huge benefit dealing 2d10 eventually, and having great saves (I was the only one to out manuever the avalanche) helps out a lot. Dear lord... I wish people who thought classes are way better than they are wouldn't use 54 point buy (And think it's remotely normal, acceptable, or sane.) to try and show it. It's really... annoying by this point. We've gone through this so many times on the boards. Str 16 = 10 points Con 14 = 6 points Dex18 = 16 points Int 10 = 2 points Wis 18 = 16 points Cha 12 = 4 points. That's 54 point buy. Thinking are making something remotely viable by a normal game with that is obscene. 30 point buy is "high powered". 54 is "obscene" or "insane". In *reality* your scores will look more like... 15 strength 12 dex 12 con 10 int 14 wis 8 cha Fun, isn't it? That's a 25 point buy. At 30 you crank up the strength to 16 for two points, then put up the dex two more, then put up Con to 13. You suffer terribly from MAD. On top of that, your damage will be rather anemic at every level, and mages can play keep-away (or outgrapple you. I' not kidding.), and you can't do much against DR. You get the ability to bypass DR 'eventually' and don't deal enough damage to really hurt. Oh yeah, and you miss. A lot. And you... can't figure out point buy. At all. I'm not quite sure how you figure that using 54 points is a standard 30. Anyways, a wizard can outgrapple a monk with a couple of spells and a rather easy build. In fact, by level 7 you could get something like a +35 grapple without items. To do this, you basically use a couple of spells out of the Spell Compendium, or just Polymorph. Or you can look at this to make it so that you could grapple *ANYTHING* to death. http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=651&postnum=0 Seriously though, at that point you're just rubbing it in for the poor monk. Also, the notion that a monk can't go toe to toe with a Fighter in most any situation is pretty lame too... since Fighters have very little going for them. They pretty much have to rely completely on equipment, due to a lack of real class features (They're a stepping stone to PrCs). Fighters aren't good for a melee class, and melee classes are generally fairly weak. A Barbarian or Paladin is definitely better in straight combat. Fighters are there for PrCs. As for a really effective monk, I would suggest checking out K's version, in his excellent Dungeonomicon. It reduces MAD, and has some very nifty abilities, along with the ability to set up your own style. Obviously, the naming part is just a joke. ;) http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9483435 There's a few other interesting alternatives (Such as, perhaps, Szatany's Ultimate Monk). The core monk is kinda screwed on a lot of levels, sadly. They're not even that good at the anti-spellcaster thing, for WAY more reasons than the grapple cheese. A glance at the wizard spell list will show this (And Contingency will stop you from doing annoying things like "getting the drop on him" or "winning initiative")
Thorak 08-05-06, 12:22 AM	Scroll of Caster Lv. 20 G. Magic Fang - 3(spell level)*20(caster level)*25 = 1,500 GP Scroll of Caster Lv. 20 Permancey w/ 1500 XP - 5(spell level)*20(caster level)*25 + (5*1500)xp = 10,000 GP +5 Attack & Damage for less then 1/4 of what the fighter pays for it - Priceless Look on the Monk's face when any enemy spellcaster casts an area Dispel and his Magic Fang goes *poof* permanently; truly priceless. Relying on Permanent spells isn't very smart, unless everything you fight can't cast spells. Next someone asked for a monk to break 200- damage a round. Human Monk 20 - SRD only Stats - 28 pnt. buy STR -14 (28) [14 base +4 levels +6 Belt +4 Manual] DEX -14 (24) [14 base +6 gloves + 4 Manual] CON -14 (18) [14 base +4 Manual] INT -10 WIS -14 (24) [14 base +6 gloves +3 Tome + 1 Level] CHA -10 Human Barbarian 20, SRD only Stats - 28 pnt. buy STR -16 (32/40) [16 base +4 levels +6 Belt +4 Manual +2 Enlarge/+8 Rage] DEX -12 (16) [10 base +6 gloves -2 Enlarge] CON -15 (16) [16 base +1 level] INT -10 WIS -10 CHA -10 Not going to bother detailing feats, but he's got Power Attack. Equipment- 36,000 Belt of Giants Strength +6 36,000 Peript of Wisdom +6 36,000 Gloves of Dex +6 110,000 Manual of Bodily Health +4 110,000 Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 110,000 Manual of Quickness of Action +4 82,500 Tome of Understanding +3 4,000 Continus Item of Enlarge Person 64,000 Bracers of Armor +8 Total spent 600,000 gp Total Left for Other stuff 180,000 Equipment- 36,000 Belt of Giants Strength +6 36,000 Gloves of Dex +6 110,000 Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 4,000 Continus Item of Enlarge Person 35,650 +5 Mithral Full Plate 49,170 +5 Animated Heavy Steel Shield 128,350 +5 Flaming Shocking Icy Greatsword 50,000 +5 Amulet of Natural Armor 50,000 +5 Ring of Protection Total spent: 499,170 gp. 100,000 less than your monk. Full Attack 28/28/28/23/18 Unarmed Dice 2d10 (base) -> 4d8 (Large size) -> 6d8 (INA) Unarmed Damage 6d8 (base) + 9 (Str) + 5 (GMF) Avg. Damage 41 5 Attacks* 41 Damage each = 205 Damage a Round Full attack, Raging, 39/34/29/24 (+20 BAB, +15 Str, +5 magic, -1 size) Greatsword damage; 3d6 (base) + 22 (1.5x Str) +5 (magic enhancement) +3d6 (flaming, shocking, icy). Avg. Damage 48. Which, admittedly, is less than the Monk, on a full attack. But he's got such a better to-hit, and Power Attack. Even if he Power Attacks for 5, he's up to 58 damage a hit, at 34/29/24/19. Overall better to-hit scores, and he'll outdamage you if you both each hit every time. And he's got a better critical. And he spent less money than you. And hasn't spent any feats but Power Attack. And is far better on any round he only gets a single attack, or on any AoOs he gets. And has far more HP. Need I go on? AC 39 [10 base + 9 Dex + 9 Wis + 4 Level + 8 Bracers - 1 size] AC 40 [10 base +3 Dex +8 Armor + 5 armor enhancement +2 shield +5 shield enhancement +5 natural armor +5 Deflection -1 Size -2 Rage] [quote]Note About The Scrolls The Scroll of GMF can become a potion for 1,500 more. The Scroll of Permancy should be cast on you by the partys wizard. No wizard? Just pay the local one 1,000 GP to cast it for you. Try closer to 3,000gp for getting a wizard to cast it. And that's assuming there's a 9th level Wizard who knows Permanency you can find. 9th level caster casting a 5th level spell is 450gp. A Permanent Enlarge Person costs 500xp to the caster too, however, which costs 5gp per xp, for an extra 2,500gp. The above shows pretty clearly that the Barbarian outperforms the Monk in every way. If you want a damage-dealing guy, go for a Barbarian, not a Monk. Sure, you can get a monk to deal large amounts of damage. But they're going to suffer in other ways significantly.
malignor 08-05-06, 02:11 AM	Anyways, a wizard can outgrapple a monk with a couple of spells and a rather easy build. In fact, by level 7 you could get something like a +35 grapple without items. To do this, you basically use a couple of spells out of the Spell Compendium, or just Polymorph. Or you can look at this to make it so that you could grapple *ANYTHING* to death. http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=651&postnum=0 Seriously though, at that point you're just rubbing it in for the poor monk.Y'know, I've heard about this "ultra-grappling wizard" for some time now and I have to say I'm not impressed. The guy has to spend a few rounds casting spells to get the effect (why do all casters have precognition in these examples?) and can still be stunned. Plus as many forms, the wizard can't cast spells (like as a Remorhaz) so he'd have to waste a standard action to dispel Polymorph just to cast a cantrip. Not to mention by the time we're level 7, the monk can afford potions (Enlarge Person, Bull Strength)... so if the "well I had a few rounds to prep cuz I saw it coming" is used, well so did the grappler monk, who just switches tactics, drinks a potion of fly and another of invisibility, and floats up with a power attack-stunning fist opener to a flurry on the big, flatfooted monster with no AC buffs (spent on grapples) and no AC items (polymorph took them away). Sure the Monk just spent resources, but he just got possession the Wizard has. Seems worth 2 potions to me.
(TD)Faber 08-05-06, 08:14 AM	You guys get to spend about 600,000 GP?? WHen we reach lvl 20 we should be happy with 300,000Gp. Is there a standard for how much GP a lvl 1 to 20 should have except the NPC monk,wizard,fighter etc in the DMG?
valdreg 08-05-06, 09:31 AM	Look on the Monk's face when any enemy spellcaster casts an area Dispel and his Magic Fang goes *poof* permanently; truly priceless. Relying on Permanent spells isn't very smart, unless everything you fight can't cast spells. A level 20 wizard has a 50% chance to dispell the permancy (1d20+20 Vs. DC 31). While he's doing that I run up and Attack him. Human Barbarian 20, SRD only Stats - 28 pnt. buy STR -16 (32/40) [16 base +4 levels +6 Belt +4 Manual +2 Enlarge/+8 Rage] DEX -12 (16) [10 base +6 gloves -2 Enlarge] CON -15 (16) [16 base +1 level] INT -10 WIS -10 CHA -10 The Monk i gave was solely in responce to a previous poster who didn't belive that a monk could break 200 damage a round. it was not ment for debate. if you want i can make one to so use. Try closer to 3,000gp for getting a wizard to cast it. And that's assuming there's a 9th level Wizard who knows Permanency you can find. 9th level caster casting a 5th level spell is 450gp. A Permanent Enlarge Person costs 500xp to the caster too, however, which costs 5gp per xp, for an extra 2,500gp. the Enlarge Person isn't being permancied. The GMF is. a weizard can cast permancy form a scroll without trouble, but has to use the scrolls modifiers in place of his. Thus, the caster lv. of 20 on the scroll. the 1000 is to get the local wiz to use the scroll on you. I'm almost certenaly mis-reading the rules on scroll use though, so if you can show me where that would be helpful.
ComicEntendre 08-05-06, 09:33 AM	I'm just poppin' in to say that I've been playing a Monk/Sorcerer/Enlightened Fist with the Arcane Strike feat and it's incredibly effective as a fighter-type. I'm able to keep up with a fighter in both damage and accuracy and I still have my arcane magic as a handy utlity belt.
IbanezNinja 08-05-06, 12:03 PM	You guys get to spend about 600,000 GP?? WHen we reach lvl 20 we should be happy with 300,000Gp. Is there a standard for how much GP a lvl 1 to 20 should have except the NPC monk,wizard,fighter etc in the DMG? Yeah, page 135, table 5-1.
Thorak 08-05-06, 12:30 PM	A level 20 wizard has a 50% chance to dispell the permancy (1d20+20 Vs. DC 31). While he's doing that I run up and Attack him. The point isn't any single encounter. It's that at some point, an enemy caster will try to dispel the party buffs, and catch your only source of magical bonuses. And then you're screwed for the rest of the adventure unless you all pack up and go home, or the party wizard wants to spend more XP on you. Hell, my last game ended around level 8 and we were already starting to see Dispels tossed around. The Monk i gave was solely in responce to a previous poster who didn't belive that a monk could break 200 damage a round. it was not ment for debate. if you want i can make one to so use. My point is that 200 damage a round isn't jaw-dropping, when an absolutely standard Barbarian build can far outdo it. Heck, consider a Rogue TWFing with nonmagical daggers; if he hits a full attack flanking, that's 6 sneak attacks, at an average of 35 per. Which is over 200 damage, before you consider the actual weapons. 200 damage if every single attack in a full attack hits is not an impressive number.
OneWinged4ngel 08-05-06, 12:40 PM	Y'know, I've heard about this "ultra-grappling wizard" for some time now and I have to say I'm not impressed. The guy has to spend a few rounds casting spells to get the effect (why do all casters have precognition in these examples?) and can still be stunned. Plus as many forms, the wizard can't cast spells (like as a Remorhaz) so he'd have to waste a standard action to dispel Polymorph just to cast a cantrip. Not to mention by the time we're level 7, the monk can afford potions (Enlarge Person, Bull Strength)... so if the "well I had a few rounds to prep cuz I saw it coming" is used, well so did the grappler monk, who just switches tactics, drinks a potion of fly and another of invisibility, and floats up with a power attack-stunning fist opener to a flurry on the big, flatfooted monster with no AC buffs (spent on grapples) and no AC items (polymorph took them away). Sure the Monk just spent resources, but he just got possession the Wizard has. Seems worth 2 potions to me. Actually, you don't have to spend *ANY* rounds casting spells. He has a very high base grapple, and his important spells are swift. You don't actually have to waste *ANY* time, and can come out grappling on the first round. If you *DID* need to buff, you could just use Rope Trick, and no one could get you. But you don't. Please check the facts. Don't forget that Polymorph makes you an ultragrappler *ON ITS OWN* for the rest of the day. Also, you will be already buffed by the time you polymorph. The ultra-grappler wizard isn't even really hard to make. A couple of spells will make you better at it than the monk (again, straight out of the init count), and you can just use more to add to that if you decide you want to grapple something obscene, like a Dire Bear at level 6. Now then... the Monk is underpowered. You can argue it all you want, but it really is. However, you *don't have to suffer from this*. K fixed the monk in the Dungeonomicon, and it works out very smoothly in playtests (pretty much even power at every level). If you've not read K's excellent articles, I highly suggest you do so. Check it out here: The Dungeonomicon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9483435) A few people who don't think through what they're reading will say it's overpowered, sure, but if you actually *play* it you'll see just how well-balanced it is (As well as far more fun to play). K's monk reduces MAD, and gives level-appropriate abilities that actually matter (and are pretty cool). By contrast, the monk as it is now has lots of trouble going for it. Going up in the back row and hitting things doesn't actually count for anything, because the wizards are invisible and flying and contingent teleporting or whatever, and even if they do the Wizard has a great variety of spells that can beat up the grappling monk. Besides that, their damage is pretty anemic, and the 1d20 weapon really doesn't help that. At this level, spells are slinging save or dies (Or if you know what you're doing, NO SAVE, just dies) ALL the time, with secondary effects for the measley 5th level ones that can compete with you for damage. On top of that, DR screws you over completely for most all of your career. And then there's MAD, so that you really can't do much with your scores. Anyways, in my experience, wizards and sorcerors don't fear monks more than... well, most anything (Especially at decent levels). So much for putting the fear into *one favored enemy type* The monk needs help. The Fighter needs help. Stop trying to deny it, and try using one as a CR (level) encounter, and watch your PCs laugh as they get remarkably easy XP (And good loot, since they get the full loot for that level from a character). Some people don't actually believe this (Even though it's said right there in the DMG), but a character of x level is actually supposed to go 50/50 with things his CR, and he's supposed to have a CR equal to his level. Wizards, Sorcerors, Clerics, Druids, Artificers, or a clever Rogue can do these things.
Seerow 08-05-06, 01:58 PM	The Monk i gave was solely in responce to a previous poster who didn't belive that a monk could break 200 damage a round. it was not ment for debate. if you want i can make one to so use. And that post was in response to a different guy who claimed that a Monk was better because -his- monk averaged 28 damage per round, while -his- Fighter only hit something absurdly low like 11. Also, I spent 524,500 GP (235,500), didn't do anything cheap, and used probably the most suboptimal style of fighting there is. And didn't spend any of my normal feats, that was Fighter class features alone. Afterall, I could have gotten Greater Magic Weapon permanencied on my Sword and Shield, and Magic Vestment on my armor, and saved myself a boatload of money. But I didn't. I could have gotten Continuous Enlarge Person too, but that's cheesy. Most DMs when you try to get that will say "Yeah, right" ESPECIALLY for 4000 dollars. Go back, try it again without custom items, and without spending any of your non-monk granted feats. But hey, I'm sure you can stay above 200, as Thorak said it's not particularly hard. So I'll shut up and let others argue instead.
Rhavin_the_Risen 08-05-06, 08:33 PM	Here is a simple outcome of an average fighter and an average monk Monk: Dances around fighter doing minimal damage. Monk: "Holy#@$%, my hand hurts". Fighter: Slashes sword many times. Hits once. Monk: Monk is dead. Here is an outcome of a bad fighter and a good monk Fighter: Slashes sword many times, hits once Monk: Attempts to punch fighter, hurts hand Monk: Realizes fighter didn't have enough gp to buy a helmet, punches in face. Fighter: Fighter is dead Monk: Walks away without looting body because it wouldn't follow his intricate code of courtesies thats pages fill up his entire monastary.
JustSayNo 08-05-06, 11:29 PM	I have played a Monk a few times and they can be different . One of the best feats I ever picked up was Choose Your Poison feat its always been a hell of a thing for stunning fist thats its a Fort save and your hitting front line types with great Fort saves . The feat lets you choose from 2 saves now you can choose Fort or Wil and all of a sudden that stunning fist comes into there own. Oh also you keep having these fights between monks and fighters I dont see any of the monks using their Stunning fist ability ? It would be a given to try at least a few times . In one of the fights you had a 20th levels PCs well a monk with good Wis would have a DC 25 or higher with extra items it could push over 30 and most fighters would have a good save of about 20 so for Fort so you could have some fun stunning them and then pick up their weapon from the ground so they cannt have it haha :) so if you got that one feat Choose Your Poison hmm its a whole different picture with the fighters save dropping to around 10 or a little more for Wil saves and that sunning feat comes in a lot . Another option which I found good if you have a potion of True Strike around is have Imp Disarm and then use it there is nothing in the world of seeing your best weapon ripped from your hands . The best one is from a Ring of Storing Minor its not over the top and you can have 3 of the spells in it . Also about those fights if at anytime the Monk could have one different feat it would be Improved Sunder with a 16th or higher monk you do not have any trouble Hardness up to 20 and if you have a +5 weapon its gaining on its hardness/hit points so it would have if it was made out of Adamantine metal it would only last maybe 2 hitbefore he is disarmed and if using the True Strike at the start with Power Attack he would lose it with one attack ! So for me the monk is not to stand there and take lots of damage he is there to disable them either by stunning or disarming them so others can finish off if you are needed some where else .
Seerow 08-05-06, 11:43 PM	Cause a good Fighter is going to have roughly a +25 Fort save to start with, so unless you're blowing feats on Stunning Fist, you aren't likely to land one.
Et Cetera 08-05-06, 11:52 PM	So what I'm wondering is, has anyone played a good fun monk character and how did you do that without feeling underpowered and weak or dying in almost every combat? Yeah, I once played a monk; a Drunken Master in fact. When you can raise your strength from 16 to 32 by merely going on a driking binge, then proceeding to beat up a dragon with a ladder, you start having loads of fun. (Look in the the Complete Warrior for that PrC!) If you have the resources, I would suggest playing a Monk/Kensai (Another awsome PrC from the CW), with the Vow of Poverty feat (from the Book of Exalted Deeds). This should take care of your AC problems, while providing awsome attack power with your enchanted fists. Imagine facing that same fight 1 on 1, but this time with +5 Magic Fists. It's like that.
fearthedwarves 08-06-06, 12:32 AM	Quick question, what book is the feat "Choose Your Poison" from? Sounds like a very handy feat for monks. Also for those of you who have the dragon conpendium you may want to consider getting the feat "ring the golden bell". That feat lets you use your unarmed strike as a ranged attack with a range of 5ft + 5ft per point of wisdom bonus. Useable a number of times per day equal to 1+ your wisdom bonus. Not the best feat, but handy if you like stunning fist.
coolmantheboom 08-06-06, 05:58 AM	sork monk or shield monk for the win....