An Evil Paladin [Archive] - Wizards Community

An Evil Paladin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Louist
07-29-06, 04:33 PM It has always bothered me that there is no real evil equivelant to the Pally, and this doesn't make much sense. Evil gods are in as much need of champions as good gods, and for the most part, DnD is based on balance between the two alignments, so why this glarring lack of an evil champion?

There are steps taken in the PHB to accomidate evil clerics (Spont. cause wound spells, rebuke), so why not do the same with paladins?

Before you say, "That's called a Black Guard," I have to point out that these are not the same. A Black Guard is NOT an evil pally. The gain the pally like abilities, the BG has to be a LG pally that turned to evil... and somewhere along the way took ranks in Hide and summoned an evil outsider. That doesn't really sound at all like the average Champion of all the is Good. Add to that that the BG is a prestige class.

So, in short, there should be an evil counterpart to pally, more or less identical, but reversed. Any comments welcome!

Oh, and the number one reason to buy the DMG 3.5? A BG portrait that doesn't make you laugh yourself silly.
EpicLevelMobra
07-29-06, 04:48 PM There should also be a chaotic monk a lawful barbarian. . .what else. . .a lawful good warlock, hell while we're at lets make everything everything else.
Sorry couldn't miss the oppurtunity for a joke, I think they didn't put it in there because it simply one of those requirements. . .I don't like the idea that the whole paladin thing, with the oaths and laws and everything pretty much have no requirement other than Lawful. But if you need it there is a whole mess of alternative Paladins in Unearthed Arcana.
Lawful Evil- Paladin of Tyranny
Chaotic Good- Paladin of Freedom
Chaotic Evil- Paladin of Slaughter
Ioreck
07-29-06, 06:14 PM check the dark paladin in my sig. it's easy to turn into a 20 lvl base class.

otherwise, just use the paladin of tyranny on the SRD, or just turn the paladin into evil (aura of evil, smit good, cause instead of cure light wounds, etc)
MaximumHavoc
07-29-06, 07:02 PM It has always bothered me that there is no real evil equivelant to the Pally, and this doesn't make much sense. Evil gods are in as much need of champions as good gods, and for the most part, DnD is based on balance between the two alignments, so why this glarring lack of an evil champion?

There are steps taken in the PHB to accomidate evil clerics (Spont. cause wound spells, rebuke), so why not do the same with paladins?

Before you say, "That's called a Black Guard," I have to point out that these are not the same. A Black Guard is NOT an evil pally. The gain the pally like abilities, the BG has to be a LG pally that turned to evil... and somewhere along the way took ranks in Hide and summoned an evil outsider. That doesn't really sound at all like the average Champion of all the is Good. Add to that that the BG is a prestige class.

So, in short, there should be an evil counterpart to pally, more or less identical, but reversed. Any comments welcome!

Oh, and the number one reason to buy the DMG 3.5? A BG portrait that doesn't make you laugh yourself silly.
Blackguard. That is what WoTC intended. In truth, WoTC should have been more explicit about the Blackguard's evil/divine/zealotry.
Tequila_Sunrise
07-29-06, 07:32 PM The simplest solution is to just allow paladins to be of any alignment (although there's not much point in being a TN paladin) as I have done. No blackguards or UA needed.
LordPendragon
07-29-06, 07:39 PM Besides the obvious solution of simply reversing abilities for an evil Paladin, there was a thread on here about a week ago about designing a neutral Paladin... I'm not sure how much they got done in it, but you might like to check it out.
Lotus Crane
07-29-06, 07:40 PM IBefore you say, "That's called a Black Guard," I have to point out that these are not the same. A Black Guard is NOT an evil pally. The gain the pally like abilities, the BG has to be a LG pally that turned to evil...
Actually, Blackguards don't have to be ex-paladins, check the PrC requirements again. Any 8th level rogue, 7th level fighter, or 7th level rogue/fighter can become a Blackguard easily. It's just that ex-paladins get certain extra bonuses for becoming a Blackguard, to compensate them for their lost paladin abilities.

But if you really want evil paladins, Unearthed Arcana, an official WotC book, already has such class variants. I think you can even find those official evil paladins online somewhere for free.
Thorak
07-29-06, 08:17 PM If you mean a "Champion of Chaos and Evil" to oppose the "Champion of Law and Good", there are plenty of options out there.

And there's absolutely no reason why said champion would be a negative-image of a Paladin. If anything, that would be a LE champion, not CE. And even then, you can be more imaginative than that.
Louist
07-29-06, 08:56 PM Thanks for the info and responces, folks. I have to admit I don't have access to Unearthed Arcana, so I'll keep an eye out for that so I can check up on those classes, as they may be perfect. Mainly I was/am annoyed that there is no real champion of evil as a non-prestige class, barring any from UA, which I haven't read yet.

Lotus- I was only saying that to be the most paladin like, the BG has to have been a paladin. Any other BG is a poor comparrison.

Maximum- I understand that BG is supposed to be a the paladin's counterpart, but I think there needs to be a mirror image evil paladin.

As suggested, I think I'll try out using a paladin and swapping good aligned abilities for evil ones, etc.

Thanks again, everyone.
Louist
07-29-06, 08:58 PM Ioreck- Very much in line with what I had pictured for an LE paladin, thanks.
Magitek
07-29-06, 09:37 PM Here is a link to the UA variant palidins.

http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVaria ntsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny
Drax_reborn
07-30-06, 09:19 AM Well I had had this thought years ago, as many other may have had. The solution was simple in my game and that was to allow paladins to be good/neutral/evil as long as they were lawful in order to show their dedication to the martial codes of whichever diety they follow.
Szatany
07-30-06, 09:39 AM My take on evil paladin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=233718). Enjoy.
kelvinaw273
07-30-06, 11:42 AM Remember, the basic game encourages the players to be the good guys, not the bad guys.
Alchemist_Chrono
07-30-06, 03:22 PM That doesn't mean the bad guy can't be one.

I'd say just revirsing the paladin's abilities would work great, I'd leave lay hands alone except for the fact it can only be used on himself.
General_Ridley
07-30-06, 04:33 PM Unearthed Arcana has variants.

Dragon 312 has 3 evil variants, the CE variant called the Anti-Paladin.

Gains an ability called "Slaughter the Weak" which gives him +2 on attack and damage rolls to anything with fewer hit dice than him.
Midnight_v
07-30-06, 05:01 PM There was a dragon magazine issues 310 & 312 (but not 311 so dont get that one) that gave a variant pladin for each alignment type.
They are they counter point to the:
Paladin = Lawful Good
Sentinel = Neutral Good
Avenger = Chaotic Good

Neutral
Enforcer = Lawful Neutral
Incarnate= "True" neutral
Anarch = Chaotic neutral

Evil
Despot = Lawful evil (aka the Tyrant)
Corrupter = Neutral evil
Anti paladin = Chaotic evil (aka the black guard)

They all had different smites and very cool turn rebukes ...for instance the Anarch had "Smite Construct" and the Corrupter had Smite heathen (anyone with level in a divine class) and also Interssesion (rebuke divine magic) which keep divine spell caster from casting certain spells.... which may be good or bad but definately the best take on the
"other-paladins" I've ever seen. . .
~M~
wvmmafan
08-12-06, 10:46 AM i have a version of an evil paladin somewhere, once I locate the jump drive it is on I will post it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Louist 07-29-06, 04:33 PM	It has always bothered me that there is no real evil equivelant to the Pally, and this doesn't make much sense. Evil gods are in as much need of champions as good gods, and for the most part, DnD is based on balance between the two alignments, so why this glarring lack of an evil champion? There are steps taken in the PHB to accomidate evil clerics (Spont. cause wound spells, rebuke), so why not do the same with paladins? Before you say, "That's called a Black Guard," I have to point out that these are not the same. A Black Guard is NOT an evil pally. The gain the pally like abilities, the BG has to be a LG pally that turned to evil... and somewhere along the way took ranks in Hide and summoned an evil outsider. That doesn't really sound at all like the average Champion of all the is Good. Add to that that the BG is a prestige class. So, in short, there should be an evil counterpart to pally, more or less identical, but reversed. Any comments welcome! Oh, and the number one reason to buy the DMG 3.5? A BG portrait that doesn't make you laugh yourself silly.
EpicLevelMobra 07-29-06, 04:48 PM	There should also be a chaotic monk a lawful barbarian. . .what else. . .a lawful good warlock, hell while we're at lets make everything everything else. Sorry couldn't miss the oppurtunity for a joke, I think they didn't put it in there because it simply one of those requirements. . .I don't like the idea that the whole paladin thing, with the oaths and laws and everything pretty much have no requirement other than Lawful. But if you need it there is a whole mess of alternative Paladins in Unearthed Arcana. Lawful Evil- Paladin of Tyranny Chaotic Good- Paladin of Freedom Chaotic Evil- Paladin of Slaughter
Ioreck 07-29-06, 06:14 PM	check the dark paladin in my sig. it's easy to turn into a 20 lvl base class. otherwise, just use the paladin of tyranny on the SRD, or just turn the paladin into evil (aura of evil, smit good, cause instead of cure light wounds, etc)
MaximumHavoc 07-29-06, 07:02 PM	It has always bothered me that there is no real evil equivelant to the Pally, and this doesn't make much sense. Evil gods are in as much need of champions as good gods, and for the most part, DnD is based on balance between the two alignments, so why this glarring lack of an evil champion? There are steps taken in the PHB to accomidate evil clerics (Spont. cause wound spells, rebuke), so why not do the same with paladins? Before you say, "That's called a Black Guard," I have to point out that these are not the same. A Black Guard is NOT an evil pally. The gain the pally like abilities, the BG has to be a LG pally that turned to evil... and somewhere along the way took ranks in Hide and summoned an evil outsider. That doesn't really sound at all like the average Champion of all the is Good. Add to that that the BG is a prestige class. So, in short, there should be an evil counterpart to pally, more or less identical, but reversed. Any comments welcome! Oh, and the number one reason to buy the DMG 3.5? A BG portrait that doesn't make you laugh yourself silly. Blackguard. That is what WoTC intended. In truth, WoTC should have been more explicit about the Blackguard's evil/divine/zealotry.
Tequila_Sunrise 07-29-06, 07:32 PM	The simplest solution is to just allow paladins to be of any alignment (although there's not much point in being a TN paladin) as I have done. No blackguards or UA needed.
LordPendragon 07-29-06, 07:39 PM	Besides the obvious solution of simply reversing abilities for an evil Paladin, there was a thread on here about a week ago about designing a neutral Paladin... I'm not sure how much they got done in it, but you might like to check it out.
Lotus Crane 07-29-06, 07:40 PM	IBefore you say, "That's called a Black Guard," I have to point out that these are not the same. A Black Guard is NOT an evil pally. The gain the pally like abilities, the BG has to be a LG pally that turned to evil... Actually, Blackguards don't have to be ex-paladins, check the PrC requirements again. Any 8th level rogue, 7th level fighter, or 7th level rogue/fighter can become a Blackguard easily. It's just that ex-paladins get certain extra bonuses for becoming a Blackguard, to compensate them for their lost paladin abilities. But if you really want evil paladins, Unearthed Arcana, an official WotC book, already has such class variants. I think you can even find those official evil paladins online somewhere for free.
Thorak 07-29-06, 08:17 PM	If you mean a "Champion of Chaos and Evil" to oppose the "Champion of Law and Good", there are plenty of options out there. And there's absolutely no reason why said champion would be a negative-image of a Paladin. If anything, that would be a LE champion, not CE. And even then, you can be more imaginative than that.
Louist 07-29-06, 08:56 PM	Thanks for the info and responces, folks. I have to admit I don't have access to Unearthed Arcana, so I'll keep an eye out for that so I can check up on those classes, as they may be perfect. Mainly I was/am annoyed that there is no real champion of evil as a non-prestige class, barring any from UA, which I haven't read yet. Lotus- I was only saying that to be the most paladin like, the BG has to have been a paladin. Any other BG is a poor comparrison. Maximum- I understand that BG is supposed to be a the paladin's counterpart, but I think there needs to be a mirror image evil paladin. As suggested, I think I'll try out using a paladin and swapping good aligned abilities for evil ones, etc. Thanks again, everyone.
Louist 07-29-06, 08:58 PM	Ioreck- Very much in line with what I had pictured for an LE paladin, thanks.
Magitek 07-29-06, 09:37 PM	Here is a link to the UA variant palidins. http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVaria ntsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny
Drax_reborn 07-30-06, 09:19 AM	Well I had had this thought years ago, as many other may have had. The solution was simple in my game and that was to allow paladins to be good/neutral/evil as long as they were lawful in order to show their dedication to the martial codes of whichever diety they follow.
Szatany 07-30-06, 09:39 AM	My take on evil paladin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=233718). Enjoy.
kelvinaw273 07-30-06, 11:42 AM	Remember, the basic game encourages the players to be the good guys, not the bad guys.
Alchemist_Chrono 07-30-06, 03:22 PM	That doesn't mean the bad guy can't be one. I'd say just revirsing the paladin's abilities would work great, I'd leave lay hands alone except for the fact it can only be used on himself.
General_Ridley 07-30-06, 04:33 PM	Unearthed Arcana has variants. Dragon 312 has 3 evil variants, the CE variant called the Anti-Paladin. Gains an ability called "Slaughter the Weak" which gives him +2 on attack and damage rolls to anything with fewer hit dice than him.
Midnight_v 07-30-06, 05:01 PM	There was a dragon magazine issues 310 & 312 (but not 311 so dont get that one) that gave a variant pladin for each alignment type. They are they counter point to the: Paladin = Lawful Good Sentinel = Neutral Good Avenger = Chaotic Good Neutral Enforcer = Lawful Neutral Incarnate= "True" neutral Anarch = Chaotic neutral Evil Despot = Lawful evil (aka the Tyrant) Corrupter = Neutral evil Anti paladin = Chaotic evil (aka the black guard) They all had different smites and very cool turn rebukes ...for instance the Anarch had "Smite Construct" and the Corrupter had Smite heathen (anyone with level in a divine class) and also Interssesion (rebuke divine magic) which keep divine spell caster from casting certain spells.... which may be good or bad but definately the best take on the "other-paladins" I've ever seen. . . ~M~
wvmmafan 08-12-06, 10:46 AM	i have a version of an evil paladin somewhere, once I locate the jump drive it is on I will post it.