Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wyrd Bearer 08-06-05, 05:55 PM	Okay, I'd just like to preface this with the fact that I don't think that the core sorcerer is drastically underpowered as class. It may not quite be as powerful as the wizard but I think that the sorcerer is much more fun to play as. Also, I'm not fantastic at game balance. IMC, a class tweak or a new splatbook is balanced if everyone in the party is having fun and nobody cries foul. So that's where I'm coming from. Okay, on to the idea. This may have been inspired by the pain medication that I'm on since I got my wisdom teeth ripped out but here goes. I was thinking that sorcerers are masters of innate magic, that they don't need studying or book-smarts to cast spells and that magic should come naturally to them. The PHB sorcerer embodies this pretty well. But here's my thought. What if sorcerers could take an improvised crack at casting spells they don't know a limited times per day. WB's tweaked Sorcerer Everything is the same as the vanilla PHB sorcerer but they have the following added. Improvised spellcasting Starting at 4th level, a sorcerer may attempt to cast a spell that is not one of his known spells (but is on the sorcerer/wizard spell list) once a day. To cast this spell, the sorcerer must expend a spell per day that is at least one level higher than the attempted spell's level. Then the sorcerer must succeed at a Spellcraft check with a DC equal to the attempted spell's level x 3 +10 (i.e. to cast a third level spell the sorcerer needs to succeed at a DC 19 spellcraft check). A roll of a 1 is always a failure and on a 20 the sorcerer automatically succeeds. The level of the spell that the sorcerer can attampt to cast is limited to one less than the highest level spell the sorcerer can normally cast. This check is part of the action required to cast the spell and requires no additional action on the sorcerer's part (its equivalent in action to picking how much of a penalty to take on a power attack). The sorcerer cannot take 10 on this check. A sorcerer can attempt to improvise a spell in threatened or otherwise distracted but suffers a -5 penalty on the check. Even if the check fails, the expended spell is still burned for the day and the caster suffers as if he were affected by a scroll related mishap. Finally, casting an improvised spell takes a full-round action to cast, just as if the sorcerer had decided to metamagically augment a spell on the fly. At 8th level, a sorcerer can attempt to improvise a spell twice a day and one more additional time for every 4 levels afterwards. (Max 5 times per day at level 20). Example: Stragos, a 14th level sorcerer is in a bit of a bind and needs some combat competence on the fly. He does not know Tenser's Transformation but he has a vague idea of how the spell goes. He expends one of his 7th level spells per day and attempts a spellcraft check. He needs to pass a DC of 28 in order to cast this spell. He takes a -5 penalty on his spellcraft check because he is threatened by some hobgoblin fighters. If he fails, he will be subject to a magical mishap as if he failed to cast a scroll. Regardless of whether he was successful or not, he can only attempt to improvise a spell two more times that day. ===== What do people think? Too complicated? To those who think the sorcerer is weak, how does this sound to you? To those who think the sorcerer is fine, is this overpowered?
COPUS Chief 08-06-05, 07:14 PM	Sorcerer's dont get Spell Slots. Thats why they spend larger amounts of Time when they use Metamagic. They dont have Slots to assign to buffed spells. I take it you mean he uses up one Spell per Day of a Level higher than the intended Improvised Spell, yes? Im making sure I understand. But I am intrigued by this, however it is sort of off set by the Sorcerer getting to unlearn spells like they can.
Cyric 08-06-05, 07:22 PM	That's an interesting idea, it doesn't look to be balance upsetting at a glance. I might would add something about the sorcerer having to have had some sort of experience with the spell: seen it cast, been the target. Just my 2 cents.
StevenO 08-06-05, 07:23 PM	Not bad. Presentation is a little complicated however. I don't know that I'd give them this for free but I think it would make a good metamagic feat. Improvised Spellcasting: Prereq-ability to cast arcane spells without preperation. Benefit: once per day you may attempt to cast an unknow spell that is on your spell list buy making a spellcraft check DC*=10 + (spell level x 3). This spell uses a slot +1* level higher (3rd level spell uses 4th level slot) and is expended if the spellcraft check fails and the spell is lost. You may take this feat multiple times to gain additional attempts. Normal: You can only cast known spell. *=testing may require adjusting these values Opens the ability up to bards as well and isn't much different than the Sudden Metamagic feat in use.
Nephlite 08-06-05, 07:29 PM	Okay, I'd just like to preface this with the fact that I don't think that the core sorcerer is drastically underpowered as class. It may not quite be as powerful as the wizard but I think that the sorcerer is much more fun to play as. Only because most people hate the Vancian spell casting system (cast and forget) do they find sorc fun. Okay, on to the idea. This may have been inspired by the pain medication that I'm on since I got my wisdom teeth ripped out but here goes. I was thinking that sorcerers are masters of innate magic, that they don't need studying or book-smarts to cast spells and that magic should come naturally to them. The PHB sorcerer embodies this pretty well. But here's my thought. What if sorcerers could take an improvised crack at casting spells they don't know a limited times per day. I like it, I gave the Spell Surges similar to Wild Surges (from Wilder class but no enervation and less at level; 20) But to each his own. WB's tweaked Sorcerer Improvised spellcasting Starting at 4th level, a sorcerer may attempt to cast a spell that is not one of his known spells (but is on the sorcerer/wizard spell list) once a day. To cast this spell, the sorcerer must expend a spell slot that is at least one level higher than the attempted spell's level. Then the sorcerer must succeed at a Spellcraft check with a DC equal to the attempted spell's level x 3 +10 (i.e. to cast a third level spell the sorcerer needs to succeed at a DC 19 spellcraft check). A roll of a 1 is always a failure and on a 20 the sorcerer automatically succeeds. The level of the spell that the sorcerer can attampt to cast is limited to one less than the highest level spell the sorcerer can normally cast. This check is part of the action required to cast the spell and requires no additional action on the sorcerer's part (its equivalent in action to picking how much of a penalty to take on a power attack). The sorcerer cannot take 10 on this check. A sorcerer can attempt to improvise a spell in threatened or otherwise distracted but suffers a -5 penalty on the check. Even if the check fails, the expended spell slot is still burned for the day and the caster suffers as if he were affected by a scroll related mishap. Finally, casting an improvised spell takes a full-round action to cast, just as if the sorcerer had decided to metamagically augment a spell on the fly. At 8th level, a sorcerer can attempt to improvise a spell twice a day and one more additional time for every 4 levels afterwards. (Max 5 times per day at level 20). Example: Stragos, a 14th level sorcerer is in a bit of a bind and needs some combat competence on the fly. He does not know Tenser's Transformation but he has a vague idea of how the spell goes. He expends a 7th level spell slot and attempts a spellcraft check. He needs to pass a DC of 28 in order to cast this spell. He takes a -5 penalty on his spellcraft check because he is threatened by some hobgoblin fighters. If he fails, he will be subject to a magical mishap as if he failed to cast a scroll. Regardless of whether he was successful or not, he can only attempt to improvise a spell two more times that day. ===== What do people think? Too complicated? To those who think the sorcerer is weak, how does this sound to you? To those who think the sorcerer is fine, is this overpowered? Hmm so 5 at level 20. (Note my numbers are probably off but eh) Hmm 4th level (let us pretend max Skill, Int stat 12) we get spellcraft 7 +1 ability mod= 8 So you have a roll on average of 18. DC 13 for 1st level spell or DC 10 for 0 level spell. I think it looks balanced. Around 75% chance for level 1 spell and 90% for 0 level spell. Level 7, Spellcraft maybe + 11 (1 ability) skill. 3rd level spell DC 19. Average 22 check. 85% chance I think. question what does this mean? A sorcerer can attempt to improvise a spell in threatened or otherwise distracted but suffers a -5 penalty on the check.
COPUS Chief 08-06-05, 07:35 PM	Nephlite It means that if Hennet, a sorcerer, tries to Improvise a Spell in a threatened area of an ogre? He takes a -5 on the check to improvise. He would also take -5 if he is on a boat being rocked violently by a storm, etc etc
Wyrd Bearer 08-07-05, 11:07 AM	Thank you to everyone who commented. @COPUS Chief: Yes, you are correct in both posts. I went and fixed the "spell slots" issue. You also explained the distracted or threatened aspect well, thank you. @Cyric: I was wondering how to impliment something similar to what you suggest. I was thinking of somehow including a Knowledge(arcana) check to see if the sorc knows of spell but when I tried to write it up, it came out clunky (who want's to roll 2-3 different checks to do something?), so I dropped it. I like the idea that it has to be a spell that they've seen or experienced, sort of like those spell-touched feats from UA and it also turns the sorc into a sort of blue mage. Also, this would reward players who keep good notes. @StevenO: It is a bit dense for an ability. I like the idea of it being a feat (strangely enough, I didn't consider bard for this ability but I did think of the hexblade ;) ) but I think that I'll just leave it as a sorcerer only ability. See, here is the thing that has made me think about sorcerers/wizards. They both cast spells and they both have familiars. The difference is that sorcerers know less spells but can cast them more often while the wizard potentially knows every spell but can only cast them a few times per day. A wizard also has to prepare all his spells in the morning but that is part his strategic advantage over the sorcerer's tactical. So is having fewer spells more often in the day really so powerful that the wizard has to have all five of those bonus feats to compete? My personaly feeling is that no, the difference in spellcasting is balanced but the wizard gains feats over the sorcerer. So giving this to the sorcerer every 4 levels levels makes the sorcerer have as many class features as the wizard but still prevents them from having the same flexibility as the wizard. But, again, maybe I'm no good at balance. I've never had any complaints personally about playing the standard vanilla sorcerer before and this was only a wild idea I had as a spur of the moment. I would like to playtest it though to see how it works. @Nephlite: Hmm, could you post a link to your sorcerer tweak (I'm in posting mode so if its in your sig, sorry, I cannot see it right now)?