Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hariman 04-07-06, 12:16 PM	I have made this thread as an offshoot of the discussion in the "Ways for a sorcerer to gain additional spells known" thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=616344) The statement was made that losing a level of casting in a prestige class made the class worth much less to take. To be exact: "You forgot the truly important cost of sand shaper. You lose an arcane caster level, and you lose it at level 1. The rest is irrelevant. Pre-epic, that's pretty much never worth it for a sorcerer who sees himself as a primary caster. "Thou shalt not give up caster levels"." And the counter argument was made: "Sand Shaper, added to sorcerer, adds a lot of versatility to a sorcerer through the class abilities. You might take a hit on spellcasting but you gain a significant number of spells known and versatile abilities. (I'm repeating myself, but some things bear repeating)" So what I'd like to know is: What are your arguments for each category of prestige classes? (Full caster progression VS Partial Caster Progression) What classes do you feel are best with each type of prestige class? (Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, Druid etc) Which prestige classes are you favorite and which do you like least? What are some examples of good partial progression classes and good full progression classes? What are bad examples of each?
CzarGarrett 04-07-06, 01:10 PM	In my mind, the better the basic class abilities a PrC gets, the less caster level progression there should be. There has to be a pay-off. One should not be able to do all kinds of fancy stuff AND be able to cast more (and more powerful) spells.
moriarty13 04-07-06, 01:18 PM	I think that post was in the Character Optimization forum, and those folks really like their numbers:). I think it depends on your goal and your situation. If you don't mind never getting 9th level spells, then take the slower progression. If you see your character as a full spellcaster, then don't. Optimization is situational, you can optimize for a particular build or character idea and not worry about if it competes well with a build of a different flavor. If the PrC gives good hit points, good skills, the ability to wear armor and cast spells, or other interesting/powerful abilities, it is worth giving up the spell levels. Bladesinger would be a fine example except for all the crummy feat pre-reqs. Neat powers, Int to AC, quicken spells for free, take 10 on concentration. Sure, a pure wizard or a PrC with a full caster progression will be a better caster. But bladesinger is still a flavorful and interesting choice. Sand Shaper for 1 level dip is definitely worth it for a sorcerer. Sure, you delay your spells by one level and that hurts since they are already delayed by a level, but the extra spells are really nice. If you are an artillery sorc and that's all you want to be, then don't take it. Also, not everyone gets to level 20. Not everyone goes epic. If you take those statements into account many optimized builds seem a heck of a lot less optimized.
NineInchNall 04-07-06, 05:08 PM	Ick. Bladesinger. *shudder* I can't think of a single decent arcane warrior build that uses that class. Basically here's what you have to consider when giving up more than two (for sorcerers) or three (wizards) levels of spell progression: what you get from the class should be as powerful as what you give up, namely 9th level spells. As a sorcerer or wizard those spells include such powerful things as gate, shades, shapechange, wail of the banshee, dominate monster, mindrape, and apocalypse from the sky. Keep in mind that giving up 9th level spell access isn't just shorting the character out of one ability - it knocks at least three from his repertoire. If the class gives up enough caster levels to kill 9th level spells but gives something in return that is approximately as powerful as three ninth level spells, then it is balanced. Otherwise it is a poor trade, plain and simple. Bladesinger, Acolyte of the Skin, Green Star Adept, Mindbender, and others give up far more than they give you, and hence are crappy. Sandshaper, while it does give up a single level of spell progression, only gives up one, and considering what it gives you in return, that is a good trade.
The_WhiteRabbit 04-08-06, 01:23 AM	Personally, I think Sandshaper is well worth it for a sorcerer. You get a lot of decent abilities, but far and away the biggest benefit is the extra THIRTY-NINE spells known. Don't forget that several of the 1st level spells are actually 2nd level spells for other casters. While I agree that giving up caster levels is rough for a primary caster, I believe it can be worth it in some cases. For a sorcerer becoming a sand shaper, I believe it is well worth it. Of course, I even think there are times when it's worth it for a sorcerer that's pursuing a prestige class to start off as a human paragon--and that doesn't have nearly the benefits that sandshaper does. :) However, if you're a wizard--I find sandshaper to be a much less attractive PrC, largely due to the loss of a casting level.
Mitchell 04-08-06, 01:49 AM	To me it isn't about losing 9th (or 8th or whatever) level spells, it's about the power of the spells that you do have falling behind. Fewer damage dice, shorter durations, and harder to beat spell resistance (which becomes more and more common as you level up). None of these are good things. Some loss I can see as a fair trade, but too much and it can totally change the function of a wizard or sorcerer within the party.
The_WhiteRabbit 04-08-06, 12:21 PM	To me it isn't about losing 9th (or 8th or whatever) level spells, it's about the power of the spells that you do have falling behind. Fewer damage dice, shorter durations, and harder to beat spell resistance (which becomes more and more common as you level up). None of these are good things. Some loss I can see as a fair trade, but too much and it can totally change the function of a wizard or sorcerer within the party. I can see this being a problem as well--but the Practiced Caster feat can overcome this in some cases--it's not worth it for all builds, but certianly worth the feat for some. And the Sandshaper has a built-in defense against this--as long as you're in a waste environment (or lug around 15 lbs of sand in your equipment), you get a +1 to your caster level.
Lucan_Desmond 04-08-06, 01:26 PM	I've never had a problem with losing caster levels. Look at my character (he's in my sig) I like being able to multitask. My character makes a decent front line fighter or a decent caster, but I'm not the best at either. My party had a sorcerer that was the primary caster and he didn't give up any casting levels. I even went through 4 levels of fighter instead of just 1 because I wanted weapon specialization in addition to the ability to take the Spellsword class. Spellsword is a decent choice for a PrC if you enjoy being a fighter/mage. Less caster levels, but better hit dice, BAB, and abilities! Later, Des
General_Ridley 04-08-06, 05:09 PM	90% of the time, losing caster levels makes the class worthless, unless it is for concept realization. There are occasional exceptions. Sandshaper gives up a caster level for unparalleled versatility for the sorceror. Good choice in the right hands. The Recaster gives up one caster level, but you get limited use of Archmage-style abilities, limited use of some metamagic feats for free, and 2 free spells to add to your book, from ANY spell list. (Personally, I always take Heal, to give myself somehealing ability) That is most definitely worth it. others aren't so worth it. Mindbender is only useful for 1 level, the caster level + telepathy. After that, you leave it. It all depends on the cass, what you plan to do with your character, and overall capability of the player
Hariman 04-08-06, 06:01 PM	I can see this being a problem as well--but the Practiced Caster feat can overcome this in some cases--it's not worth it for all builds, but certianly worth the feat for some. And the Sandshaper has a built-in defense against this--as long as you're in a waste environment (or lug around 15 lbs of sand in your equipment), you get a +1 to your caster level. It might be 20 punds of sand, but that's just details. Sand Shaper has lots of flavor to it too. Especially if you are a fan of the Naruto anime. (And even if you aren't, wisened old master or upstart with hidden ancient powers are just the tip of the iceburg of RP goodness.) Also, Sorcerer/Sand Shaper + Dragonic Heritage and Draconic Power = caster level doesn't drop. I'm wondering what everybody else thinks about classes like Blood Magus, Daggerspell Mage and Master of the Unseen Hand. Personally, I like Blood Magus and Daggerspell Mage for the flavor/abilities, but think that MotUH is heavily dependent on being able to use Telekinesis many times each day.
NineInchNall 04-09-06, 12:54 PM	Blood Magus doesn't give you anything remotely worth the loss of two caster levels, and so gets relegated to the group of PrCs that you take for a few levels and drop before it costs you a caster level. It's sad, as I was initially looking at the class for one of my characters. Then I read it all the way through. :rolleyes: Daggerspell Mage is a good class. It only gives up two caster levels (counting the Rogue level as a loss) and can be combined with Arcane Trickster (Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Daggerspell Mage 10/Arcane Trickster 4) to get 9th level spells by 20th even as a Sorcerer. It's got good abilities that synergize well with some of the new spells in CAdv. I can't really complain about that one. Master of the Unseen Hand is unfit for standard casters. As far as I can tell it only gets rolling if you have telekinesis at will.