An Incarnum Variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

An Incarnum Variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Parion
01-01-06, 03:28 PM I really like Incarnum, but the Incarnate class gets a little shafted at high levels.

I also feel that some of the Fluff doesn't quite fit with the feel of the class.
And so I present my variant for inspection. Please be Gentle :)

Fluff:-
Soulmelds are not formed from Incarnum. That is to say: they are not formed from the souls of others. Instead they are formed from the incarnum present in the character's own soul.
Essentia represents the character drawing upon the souls of others to grant his soulmelds/abilities power. The limit represents how much power he can draw without damaging himself & causing the soulmeld to unshape.
The form of the soulmelds is slightly different from charater to character, as it takes on aspects of the shaper's personality/mindset.

Alignment:-
When a character takes his first level in Incarnate or Soulborn, he chooses an alignment allowed by the class. For determening class abilities, the character always counts as having this alignment.

Incarnate:-
Neutral Incarnate:-
Looses his Alignment Aura, Detect Opposition & Incarnum Radiance abilities.
All soulmelds with an alignment descriptor are removed from his Soulmeld list.
Instead he gains the following:-
Soulsense(Su): At 1st level a neutral Incrnate gains the ability to sense the souls of others. He can determine the status of those he sees as though under the spell "Deathwatch".
Detect Incarnum(Sp): Neutral Incarnates can use the spell Detect Incarnum at will as a spell like ability, with a caster level equal to his meldshaper level.
Soulfound Knowledge: At 3rd level, and every 3 levels thereafter (6th, 9th ect...), he can add a soulmeld to the list of those he can shape. This can be from any class's soulmeld list, and can have an alignment descriptor. If he takes a soulmeld that has differing effects depending upon the shaper's alignment (such as Incarnate Weapon), he chooses which alignment he counts as for this soulmeld when he adds it to the list. The soulmeld can be taken again later, with a differing alignment related effect. If this is done, the applicable alignment should be determined when the soulmeld is shaped.

When a neutral Incarnate gains the "True Incarnation" ability, he may choose which alignment his weapons/natural weapons count as.
RadicalTaoist
01-01-06, 10:06 PM Thank you very much.

Now out of curiosity can I ask why you feel the Incarnate is jacked at high levels? I have similar sentiments but they have nothing to do with the class in particular, more with the Incarnum system in general. I'm wondering how you came to your conclusions.
Parion
01-02-06, 07:02 AM I feel the main reason the Incarnates get jacked is the Incarnate Soulmeld list. Whilst at low levels they're tiny gods, at mid to high levels the base bonuses from the melds become less and less consequential. Around this point the Incarnate gets access to his Mid level chakras for binding, which helps... but not nearly enough as it should. There simply isn't a large enough power increase between the standard and bound abilities (with a few notable exceptions).
Todd
01-02-06, 10:58 AM I have to agree that the soulmeld’s are the main problem with the Incarnate.

I don’t see any major problems with the MoI system as a whole save perhaps that it’s a bit too easy to dip into the meldshaping classes for great benefit.

I also think that WotC underestimated the potency of natural attacks and didn’t consider all the potential psi/magic interactions with the MoI stuff ... but that in no way indicates a problem with the system as a whole.

Ignoring the potential for natural attacks I think that WotC did a fine job with the Totemist soulmelds. The bonuses for shaping a Totemist meld are good but rarely great. The real benefit comes from binding them to a chakra. Generally all the Totemist melds are good when bound to the Totem chakra but there is also a pretty good correlation between strong effects and the higher order chakras. This means that as the Totemist advances in level more and more potent effects are opened up to him.

It doesn’t work that way at all for the Incarnate. Many of his Soulmeld’s have their best effect from just being shaped. Few of them have significant improvements from being bound. In most cases an Incarnate would be better off by having an unbound soulmeld and a magic item in the same slot rather than binding the soulmeld or burning a feat to do both. Further many of the soulmelds that an Incarnate would want to bind have relatively low order chakra. They really don’t have much that takes advantage of the higher order chakra points resulting a very flat progression. They are powerful at low levels but don’t gain much by advancing so at higher level play they are correspondingly weaker.

The incarnate is also challenged in that ALL of his soulmeld attacks either require a standard action or only add to a single melee attack. Even if he had a better BAB he could never duplicate a rogue making a full attack action with sneak attack let alone what the mages and clerics of the d20 world can do. In general the range of the “offensive” soulmelds like dissolving spittle are simply too short. This latter isn’t just an Incarnate problem but it’s highlighted for him since he has so little offensive versatility. Even a Scout or Ninja is probably going to be able to dish out more damage reliably than any sort of non-Evil Incarnate. Necrocarnate changes things a bit. An Evil Incarnate actually has some interesting options that a non-Evil Incarnate will have trouble matching ... but again the best binds are the lower order to lower-mid ones.

RT I suspect that your major issues with the MoI system come from how flat it is in general. Care to elaborate on your issues?

Parion, funny but I started a similar thread a while back. Incarnate ... what I would change (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8060566#).
jpat93
01-02-06, 12:04 PM Parion, funny but I started a similar thread a while back. Incarnate ... what I would change ( http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8060566#post8060566).

Looks like the link is broken ...
Todd
01-02-06, 12:29 PM Fixed. Sorry about that. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Parion 01-01-06, 03:28 PM	I really like Incarnum, but the Incarnate class gets a little shafted at high levels. I also feel that some of the Fluff doesn't quite fit with the feel of the class. And so I present my variant for inspection. Please be Gentle :) Fluff:- Soulmelds are not formed from Incarnum. That is to say: they are not formed from the souls of others. Instead they are formed from the incarnum present in the character's own soul. Essentia represents the character drawing upon the souls of others to grant his soulmelds/abilities power. The limit represents how much power he can draw without damaging himself & causing the soulmeld to unshape. The form of the soulmelds is slightly different from charater to character, as it takes on aspects of the shaper's personality/mindset. Alignment:- When a character takes his first level in Incarnate or Soulborn, he chooses an alignment allowed by the class. For determening class abilities, the character always counts as having this alignment. Incarnate:- Neutral Incarnate:- Looses his Alignment Aura, Detect Opposition & Incarnum Radiance abilities. All soulmelds with an alignment descriptor are removed from his Soulmeld list. Instead he gains the following:- Soulsense(Su): At 1st level a neutral Incrnate gains the ability to sense the souls of others. He can determine the status of those he sees as though under the spell "Deathwatch". Detect Incarnum(Sp): Neutral Incarnates can use the spell Detect Incarnum at will as a spell like ability, with a caster level equal to his meldshaper level. Soulfound Knowledge: At 3rd level, and every 3 levels thereafter (6th, 9th ect...), he can add a soulmeld to the list of those he can shape. This can be from any class's soulmeld list, and can have an alignment descriptor. If he takes a soulmeld that has differing effects depending upon the shaper's alignment (such as Incarnate Weapon), he chooses which alignment he counts as for this soulmeld when he adds it to the list. The soulmeld can be taken again later, with a differing alignment related effect. If this is done, the applicable alignment should be determined when the soulmeld is shaped. When a neutral Incarnate gains the "True Incarnation" ability, he may choose which alignment his weapons/natural weapons count as.
RadicalTaoist 01-01-06, 10:06 PM	Thank you very much. Now out of curiosity can I ask why you feel the Incarnate is jacked at high levels? I have similar sentiments but they have nothing to do with the class in particular, more with the Incarnum system in general. I'm wondering how you came to your conclusions.
Parion 01-02-06, 07:02 AM	I feel the main reason the Incarnates get jacked is the Incarnate Soulmeld list. Whilst at low levels they're tiny gods, at mid to high levels the base bonuses from the melds become less and less consequential. Around this point the Incarnate gets access to his Mid level chakras for binding, which helps... but not nearly enough as it should. There simply isn't a large enough power increase between the standard and bound abilities (with a few notable exceptions).
Todd 01-02-06, 10:58 AM	I have to agree that the soulmeld’s are the main problem with the Incarnate. I don’t see any major problems with the MoI system as a whole save perhaps that it’s a bit too easy to dip into the meldshaping classes for great benefit. I also think that WotC underestimated the potency of natural attacks and didn’t consider all the potential psi/magic interactions with the MoI stuff ... but that in no way indicates a problem with the system as a whole. Ignoring the potential for natural attacks I think that WotC did a fine job with the Totemist soulmelds. The bonuses for shaping a Totemist meld are good but rarely great. The real benefit comes from binding them to a chakra. Generally all the Totemist melds are good when bound to the Totem chakra but there is also a pretty good correlation between strong effects and the higher order chakras. This means that as the Totemist advances in level more and more potent effects are opened up to him. It doesn’t work that way at all for the Incarnate. Many of his Soulmeld’s have their best effect from just being shaped. Few of them have significant improvements from being bound. In most cases an Incarnate would be better off by having an unbound soulmeld and a magic item in the same slot rather than binding the soulmeld or burning a feat to do both. Further many of the soulmelds that an Incarnate would want to bind have relatively low order chakra. They really don’t have much that takes advantage of the higher order chakra points resulting a very flat progression. They are powerful at low levels but don’t gain much by advancing so at higher level play they are correspondingly weaker. The incarnate is also challenged in that ALL of his soulmeld attacks either require a standard action or only add to a single melee attack. Even if he had a better BAB he could never duplicate a rogue making a full attack action with sneak attack let alone what the mages and clerics of the d20 world can do. In general the range of the “offensive” soulmelds like dissolving spittle are simply too short. This latter isn’t just an Incarnate problem but it’s highlighted for him since he has so little offensive versatility. Even a Scout or Ninja is probably going to be able to dish out more damage reliably than any sort of non-Evil Incarnate. Necrocarnate changes things a bit. An Evil Incarnate actually has some interesting options that a non-Evil Incarnate will have trouble matching ... but again the best binds are the lower order to lower-mid ones. RT I suspect that your major issues with the MoI system come from how flat it is in general. Care to elaborate on your issues? Parion, funny but I started a similar thread a while back. Incarnate ... what I would change (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8060566#).
jpat93 01-02-06, 12:04 PM	Parion, funny but I started a similar thread a while back. Incarnate ... what I would change ( http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8060566#post8060566). Looks like the link is broken ...
Todd 01-02-06, 12:29 PM	Fixed. Sorry about that. ;)