Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-18-05, 11:30 PM	I was thinking about playing a gestalt character in a normal campaign, with the catch that I could only make a gestalt out of NPC classes and couldn't gestalt with prestige classes. Right now, my idea stands as this: My character is a warrior in his city's militia, driven to insanity (split personality disorder, to be exact) by the attack of yuan-ti and the fact that most of his family had already been turned into tainted ones -- spies for the serpentine people. (The attack could also be altered to allow for illithids and mental control, a lich and zombies, or any other possible combination.) Heroes arrive, leaving him as one of few survivors, not realizing the effect of his mental problem... which, at first, does not make itself apparent. Until he starts talking in a second voice and casting spells, calling himself by a different, female name... Basically, he's a warrior/adept gestalt. Good BAB, d8 Hit Die, access to all armor and simple and martial weapons, good Fortitude and Will saves, and access to 0-5th level spells (eventually), including both healing and offensive magic; the only downfall is his lack of skill points. What I'm wanting to know is if this combination is too weak, too strong (being a gestalt character but made up of only NPC classes), or just too silly. Any thoughts?
Dwarvenrune 06-19-05, 01:59 AM	Actually it almost sounds balanced maybe a pinch overpowered, but hardly noticable.
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-19-05, 02:25 AM	Thanks for the input, Dwarvenrune, as well as being nice enough to reply with said input. I don't think it's too bad (it's actually quite similar to a high-attack cleric with much less magic) -- and what I'm most concerned about now is new spells. Do/should adepts get access to other spells? ...I'm probably the only person that seems so worried about NPC classes (save for world-builders)...
Rulebook 06-19-05, 10:48 AM	its going to make you hella powerful early on, but no more so than a Gish or Cleric later on. and the "No PrC" Clause is really going to slow him down. i have no problems with it.
Jarred Garrison 06-19-05, 11:29 AM	Yeah. NPC classes are roughly like 0.75 of a normal class, therefore two of them won´t be too much, specially once levels start rising, and PrC´s come into play (if we assume a PrC to be like 1.5 of a normal class, to go on with the example). It´s also a great idea, so if the DM and other players are cool with it, I´d say go for it.
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-19-05, 12:47 PM	Well, I went to my DM and the other players with the idea, and it actually got well beyond off the ground -- some of the other players want to give it a try, too! We've had to make a few things clear, though: Prestige classes are allowed, but they take up both NPC slots, as would going into a normal character class (IE: multiclassing as an adept-warrior/fighter). No commoners -- basically, trying to gestalt as an anything-commoner would just get you the other NPC class! For the special combination of adept-magewright (and other possible such combinations), access to classes like the mystic theurge are denied (you're already doing it, anyway). At the moment, we're undertaking the possibilities of said adept-magewright (spells), an expert-magewright (repairs and stuff), an aristocrat-expert (our skills master), and myself: the adept-warrior (combative). The other remaining players are denying the idea and acting also as our 'controls' -- a straight-up paladin and a barbarian/sorcerer. Another player is playing a psion, but only because there's no NPC psychic class. Any ideas for the class, mechanically (we're thinking a medium of some sort)?
Lord Schpungus 06-19-05, 01:50 PM	Why specifically outlaw the commoner? It's doubtful anyone would ever suggest it except as a joke..
jaerad 06-19-05, 03:37 PM	Hmm. I like it. Even Gestalt NPC classes aren't going to be better than an actual PC class. And I like how PrCs and PC Classes put an end to your gestalt. I think your idea will keep the players roughly in line with PC class power. Neat idea. :tiphat:
Nephlite 06-19-05, 04:48 PM	Aristocrats: Only for flavor/roleplaying reasons if you starting at level 1. If you starting at a leel higher than one, Aristicrats special ability because vastly powerful: they get 2x starting gold. Level 2 game starting he gets 1800, not the normal 900. Boo ya! Now that is good. Commoners: They nothing good...even flavor... Warriors: You weren't formally trained, you just half-@ssed training or something. Possible flavor reasons. Aristocrat better mechanically though (same bab). Adept: decent caster. Expert: skills monkey. Aristocrat Adept would be far better than a Warrior /adept personally.
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-19-05, 04:51 PM	The medium, v2.0-3.5. ...or something. Edited. BAB Fort Ref Will Special Points/Day Powers Known Max. Power Level 1. +0 +0 +0 +2 -- 0* 1 1st 2. +1 +0 +0 +3 Empathy 1 1 1st 3. +1 +1 +1 +3 -- 2 1 1st 4. +2 +1 +1 +4 -- 3 2 1st 5. +2 +1 +1 +4 -- 5 2 2nd 6. +3 +2 +2 +5 -- 7 3 2nd 7. +3 +2 +2 +5 -- 9 3 2nd 8. +4 +2 +2 +6 -- 11 3 2nd 9. +4 +3 +3 +6 -- 14 4 3rd 10.+5 +3 +3 +7 -- 17 4 3rd 11.+5 +3 +3 +7 -- 20 5 3rd 12.+6 +4 +4 +8 -- 23 5 3rd 13.+6 +4 +4 +8 -- 27 5 4th 14.+7 +4 +4 +9 -- 31 6 4th 15.+7 +5 +5 +9 -- 35 6 4th 16.+8 +5 +5 +10 -- 39 7 4th 17.+8 +5 +5 +10 -- 44 7 5th 18.+9 +6 +6 +11 -- 49 7 5th 19.+9 +6 +6 +11 -- 54 8 5th 20.+10 +6 +6 +12 -- 59 8 5th Hit Die: d4. Empathy: Automatically added to powers known list. Skills: Autohypnosis, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (all), Psicraft, and Sense Motive (2 + Int mod; x4 at 1st level). Powers: Any clairsentience or telepathy power from the psion/wilder list, excluding psion discipline powers. Charisma-based. Proficiency: All simple weapons, no armor or shields.
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-19-05, 05:57 PM	Actually, Nephlite, warriors have a fighter's BAB. Aristocrats only have a cleric's BAB. Warriors also have a good Fortitude save as opposed to an aristocrat's Will save. So aristocrats are rich and have more skills. I have what I want in the adept-warrior. To each their own, I suppose. In any case, thanks for the input!
BlaineTog 06-19-05, 06:28 PM	(split personality disorder, to be exact)No, a split personality is when you can't tell, or have a hard time telling, the difference between reality and fantasy (so you hear voices or see things that arn't there, for example). What you are describing is actually multiple personality disorder, wherein the person actually has multiple "persons" in his head. The only problem with this is that magic takes a long time to learn in D&D, on the order of years of training. Unless you somehow found a way to get the second personality a significant amount of training, it doesn't make sense for him to be able to cast spells. Now, this second personality could cast spells if he were a type of idiot savant. Idiot savants are people who suffer from extreme retardation, and yet excel far beyond the human norm in one area (art and mathematics are some of the more common skills). This would be mostly roleplaying though, as D&D doesn't have any way for you to have a wizardly-type character with an Int of 3 cast spells. Or, you could ignore reality and just have fun. That's certainly an entierly acceptable situation as well. Another alternative would be to take a template of some sort: Multiple Personalities. Maybe LA+1 or +2, it would allow you to take full levels (-1 or -2 for the LA, of course) in character classes, but you could only be one or the other at any given time, and the change between the two would probably be random unless you rook a racial feat which allowed you to control it (prereq would be Iron Will. You'de have to take both feats for both personalities if you wanted complete control). The random chage could take a full-round action, and the purposful one would take a minute of meditation. Personally, I think this better approximates what you are describing than gestalt rules.
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-19-05, 06:53 PM	An intriguing idea indeed, BlaineTog -- though I was actually wanting to experiment with the NPC gestalt idea. However, as I said, the idea is very interesting; what you suggest could be used well with normal PC classes. Admittedly, I half-axed the story, at least until I could come up with a better reason for him to be able to fight as averagely as a warrior and cast basic spells like an adept. I still haven't come up with a better story, so -- as you also suggested -- I'm ignoring reality and having fun with it. Though I would like to use your idea in a future campaign. Thanks for your idea and input!
GEEKAZOID 06-19-05, 10:52 PM	I am LOVING this idea! I've been wanting to play an npc class in a game for a long time but new it to be too weak. And the gestalt rules are interesting but too strong. What a perfect compromise! Dogurasu_Thanatos gets a :cookie: I thought the adept class was almost playable as is, and the magewright class from Eberron got me thinking as well. *adept/warrior *expert/warrior *expert/adept *aristocrat/warrior *aristocrat/magewright *expert/magewright *....adept/magewright? *....adept/aristocrat? Which would you play?
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-20-05, 12:42 AM	Yay, cookie!! He eats the cookie. As for the possibilities... well, if the medium (above) is included, that would give access to the following class combinations (and possible character ideas to play as them): Adept-aristocrat: The noble magician, ruling his local demesne through skill of arms and magic. Adept-expert: The skilled item creator and user, making magic in as many ways as possible. Adept-magewright: The local spellsmith, a creator of magical weapons and armor for the common person. Adept-medium: A wandering gypsy that wields formidable magic and mental powers. Adept-warrior: A spell-slinging militiaman. Aristocrat-expert: The master of all trades, with knowledge of even the most obscure skills. Aristocrat-magewright: A nobleman who can keep his own equipment in good condition, thank you very much; he's tired of being ripped off. Aristocrat-medium: A courtier that looks into the minds of who he deals with, bending diplomatic relations to his whim. Aristocrat-warrior: A noble fighter that has trained with the best. Expert-magewright: A crafter of mundane and magical technologies to support the common person's whims -- and the nobles' every whim. Expert-medium: The basic, roguish fortune-teller. Expert-warrior: The commander of the mercenaries as well as the blacksmith that made their weapons, the guy that gets them their jobs... Magewright-medium: A shrewd bargaining merchant that makes exactly what you want and charges just enough to be annoying. Magewright-warrior: The knight that can fortify his own weapons and armor. Medium-warrior: A soldier that can see how his enemies plan to attack and, sometimes, prevent them from attacking that way. Fifteen total ideas in all, with the inclusion of the medium.
GEEKAZOID 06-20-05, 01:12 AM	I see the expert/warrior as capitalizing on combat and stealth/scout skills (6 skill pts/lvl), plus two good saves. Experts choose any ten skills as class. So there are many more options other than crafting. In fact, this might make them a must have for NPC gestalt.
wi1dfire_b1ue 06-20-05, 01:40 AM	As an unsublte bit of self-promotion, check out the Charlatan NPC class I just posted. New combinations open up, as it just happens to possess spell-casting abilties and a good relfex save. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=450255 The combos I see with it are: charlatan-aristocrat: savvy political manuverist and adroit duelist. charlatan-adept: A witch, with powers over nature and people. charlatan-medium: one of the most intimidating creature in existence. charlatan-magewright: An artist who works in music, sculpture, and magic charlatan-expert: Really depends on the skill choices. If the nature skills were selected, this could be a fey emissary. charlatan-warrior: The general who leads from the front, and scatters her enemies before her.
Lord Schpungus 06-20-05, 02:55 AM	anyone have a good 'roguelike npc class? The charlatan seems too bardy to me. Well, okay, here's my attempt at a Thug. THUG Hit Die: d6. Class Skills The Thug’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex). Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. Table: The Thug Level BAB Fort Ref Wil Special 1st +0 +0 +2 +0 2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Sneak Attack +1d6 4th +3 +1 +4 +1 5th +3 +1 +4 +1 6th +4 +2 +5 +2 7th +5 +2 +5 +2 8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Sneak Attack +2d6 9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Sneak Attack +3d6 14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Sneak Attack +4d6 19th +14//+9+4 +6 +11 +6 20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Class Features All of the following are class features of the Thug NPC class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Thugs are skilled with all simple weapons, the short sword, and the short bow. Thugs are not proficient with any type of armor nor with shields. Sneak Attack: As the rogue ability, at 3rd, 8th, 13th, and 18th levels. EDITED: How does this look?
wi1dfire_b1ue 06-20-05, 02:27 PM	What do you want out of this rogue-like class, Lord Schpungus? A trapfinder? A skillmonkey? A complete backstabber (addicted to sneak attacks)? A person with a wide variety of skills but not a lot of ranks in any of them? Or merely someone with a good reflex save? Speaking of which, it struk me as odd that none of the NPC classes had that. Anyways, The skillmonkey role is firmly in the hands of the expert, though your thug does have skill mastery. There is no backstabber among the NPC crowd, but would they really belong there? For a thief NPC, I'd suggest an expert with the good save switched to Reflex. I think it makes sense to have the expert be able to pick his good save at first level, and not have it automatically be Will. That would open up a lot of character build, both for the variant on this thread and for normal NPC's. I do like your build, but I'm not sure I want non-adventurers to have sneak attack. If you're willing to explain why, I will listen.
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-20-05, 10:16 PM	I like the charlatan and the thug, both -- it looks like we have the makings of an interesting campaign variant here! However, my thoughts turn to this: What if we make these NPC classes too powerful...? What if the new NPC classes outshine the old ones? What if we add a few basic abilities to one or two of the old classes? As for my opinion on what we already have (charlatan and thug; I'll even show feedback on my medium from another post)... Charlatan: Too many boosts to DCs, in my opinion -- at least for an NPC class. However, it is to humanoids, only... still. I would limit it to 2nd, 10th, and 20th level, or just give a +1 competence bonus to skills used against the target audience at those levels, not spell save DCs. Still, great idea! Especially for a high magic campaign. Thug: Too much sneak attack, and the skill mastery ability outshines the expert. I would lower the sneak attack to +1d6 at 1st, 10th, and 20th levels -- we are talking about NPC classes, here, after all. Medium: Astral construct needs to be removed from their base list, and they shouldn't have access to specialist powers. I've seen an argument over whether they should have Wis or Cha-based points, also, but I think the flavor suggests more Cha-based. Hit die should be d4 (which was my plan, anyway), and they should start with detect thoughts. Now, as for altering the existing NPC classes... I was thinking of the following: Adept: The addition of the assorted 'familiar' spells from the Complete Warrior (the augment familiar spell) and the Complete Arcane (the familiar pocket, enhance familiar, and fortify familiar spells), to signify a kind of 'divine link' with the familiar as a kind of spiritual guardian. Aristocrat: The only thing that speaks to me here is wealth and inspiration, and I don't know what they'd inspire. Expert: Change the given save to a choice and add skill mastery for one skill at each of 6th, 12th, and 18th levels. Maybe. Magewright: Not that much I can think to add... maybe the continual flame spell... these guys are really Craft-oriented and just... weird for me to work with. Warrior: I'm thinking either a bonus fighter feat at 1st, 10th, and 20th levels, or one favored enemy. Note that these should probably only be available for when you actually plan on using this kind of campaign -- it almost seems like a horror-styled campaign!
DrakaraGM 06-21-05, 12:42 AM	BTW -- Regarding the Commoner -- yep the NPC class is horrible, and it is supposed to be. BUT note that the Commoner has 10 class skills, and the Expert gets to select 10 class skills... So anyone wanting to "be a Commoner" should do this -- take the Expert class, select the 10 class skills that commoners have, and call himself a commoner. Essentially, he COULD be a "commoner", just an exceptionally gifted one. :D (And the commoner list of class skills actually isn't all that bad.) Also, have another :cookie: ! I have been toying with a "Dark Dark Ages" D&D/Call of Cthulhu campaign, i.e. set in the early feudal period in a very low-magic mode, and planning on using NPC classes with some tweaking rather than PHB etc. classes. But the "gestalt NPC classes only" idea is, if I may say so, :cool: ... It may not be totally balanced, but it comes close, and could allow for the addition of some regular classes without disrupting that balance. I had not considered the gestalt concept for this, but was looking at multiclassing as a way of getting more different archetypes out of the NPC classes framework. Gestalt actually looks like it would work better and let me use regular CR monsters for encounter creation... P.S. -- Some of the tweaks I had been planning on would be as follows: +2 skill points per level for all NPC classes Bonus feats at 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, etc. from a limited list for each class, except adepts, who would get fewer bonus feats and get them later (at 6th and every 4 additional levels) but also get domains like a cleric (preparing one domain spell per level as a cleric) and perhaps a Paladin ability at 4th level -- i.e. pick one, Lay on Hands, Turn Undead (at level-3), Divine Grace.
GEEKAZOID 06-21-05, 11:54 AM	:bump:
jagggar 06-23-05, 12:28 AM	Neat. I made an arcane caster NPC class. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=425784 No one actually commented on it as of yet.
Crisco Disco 06-23-05, 01:45 AM	Your warrior/adept seems pretty balanced, but I was wondering, how are you going to handle his switches between personalities? I mean, If you're going to use your high BAB and spells in combat, you're going to have to chnage between personalities, yes? So as soon as your character enters his disorder is going to become apparant. This also raises the problem of small but frequent memory lapses right in the middle of a fight. Of course you did say you aren't worried about things like that at the moment, but just some things to think about.
Lord Schpungus 06-23-05, 02:35 AM	I do like your build, but I'm not sure I want non-adventurers to have sneak attack. If you're willing to explain why, I will listen. Basically, I thought up the Thug for use in the gestalt-NPCing idea. There wasn't a high reflex save class, for one, and the middle BAB classes that do exist are kind of blah. The skill list is distinct from the aristocrat's to keep from stepping on toes. As for the skill mastery, it just seemed right, for some reason. It could go, probably. The sneak attack has to be there, in some way. I don't feel that Sneak Attack is so prestigious. Think of it more as Advantageous Beating instead of Backstabbing. It could probably go to 2, 7, 12, 17 or 3, 8, 13, 18, to bring it down a bit. The thug is, basically, a thug. Someone who beats you up in an alley. Neither the expert, aristocrat, commoner, or charlatan do that.
GEEKAZOID 06-23-05, 06:42 AM	...and the middle BAB classes that do exist are kind of blah Actually, the whole idea for NP classes is to be a "blah" version of the real classes. So any new NPC class should deliberately be blah.
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-24-05, 07:21 PM	Jagggar: I've commented on your mage. Overall, I like it, but it needs some definite tweaking. Thumbs up, though! Crisco Disco: True; however, I've already thought about that. I'm sure my friends are going to find it funny -- or disastrous -- when their front-line, mega-buffed warrior is gonna dash to the back, screaming and preparing to blast people with spells. Lord Schpungus: I agree with you on the sneak attacking, though as it's an NPC class, it does need to come down somehow. It becomes a powerful ability at higher levels. Maybe if you changed it to sudden strike instead, it would work out better; sudden strike is just as good for stealthy types, but it can't be used in flanking situations, forcing the thug to have to sneak and take advantage of those kinds of situations. Geekazoid: Well, I don't see why NPCs have to be both powerless and blah. They should be weaker, but the adept's spell list alone is interesting, not to mention powerful. It just takes some alteration to make the ideas more interesting, while still maintaining the lower power standards... though I think the commoner needs to stay how it is. Heroes need somebody to save. In any case, giving the NPCs a couple of tiny abilities that can be acquired faster and greater by taking PC classes wouldn't be game-breaking.
wi1dfire_b1ue 06-24-05, 08:32 PM	Lord Schpungus: Dogurasu_Thanatos made a pretty good point about sudden strike. If you have complete adventurer, it's the signature ability of the Ninja. Well, one of them. For, one of us should write a class that has trapfinding or trapfinding as well, because that's the main party niche that no NPC class has. If you toss it onto the thug, we'll be good to go. I doubt it will be overpowering in an NPC class, because it is so specific. Anyways, good job. Dogurasu_Thanatos: To answer the question you had earlier about bumps to NPC classes, I have a couple proposals to NPC classes. Adepts: Use Ebberon's version, with the Domain power+ spells added to their list of possible spells. Aristocrats: How about a version of Bardic Lore called Gossip? The courtier class of Rokugan Campaign setting sort of does this, but it doesn't quite work the same way, and uses gather information instead. They also put in a percentage of innacuracy, which we could use as well. It's something like 50%+1/class level, you have a chance of gleaning a true rumor. Expert:Instead of Skill mastery, how about a bonus skill feat, either skill focus or one of the "acrobatics" styled feats, at the suggested levels. Magewright:Give them continual flame. A variant in one of the dragonshards articles has it, why shouldn't we use it? Warrior: Favored enemy would be cool. However, none of the skills favored enemy provides a bonus on are class skills for the warrior. Give them access to the figher only feats, with warrior levels substituted as appropriate, and not many will complain. They after all have the highest HD and the only full BAB out of any of the NPC classes.
Gagnrath 06-24-05, 09:54 PM	What thug are you thinking about using? hopefully not the one I made it's to powerful to be an npc class if you pull it's panic then it would work.
GEEKAZOID 06-24-05, 10:33 PM	I posted this onanother thread.... A possibility for making the adept more playable would be to allow him spontaneous casting as bard and sorcerer. Also, in the Eberron setting, adepts can choose a domain and add its spells to the adept spell list. (he does not gain domain power though). Using these two ideas along with gestalting with warrior may give you a solid playable class.
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-25-05, 12:17 AM	Wi1dfire B1ue: I think that combining a trapfinding ability with the thug is a great idea. Maybe bring his sudden strike down just a tad, but not bad at all. As for your variant additions: Adept: I think I'd go with this, as well. Maybe I'll just make a domain that gives whoever takes it a 'summon familiar' ability... Aristocrat: ...okay, I hadn't thought about that too much, really, and I even have a copy of the Rokugan book. Good idea! Expert: Maybe allow them to take Skill Mastery as a feat, and also give them Versatile (from the Rokugan setting) as a feat at certain levels, expanding their skill base even further... with all of these ideas for the expert, we could turn it into a full PC class! Let's be careful. Magewright: Well... now he has continual flame... but he's still most definitely not battle ready... maybe he should be allowed to craft a combat ally or something...? Warrior: Giving them the fighter feats is a good idea, especially if we don't give them bonus feats. A small, but significant boost. Gagnrath: Our thug NPC class, donated by Lord Schpungus, is posted in this thread. It needs some alteration (in my opinion), but it's a nice addition. Geekazoid: That would be great, but how many spells would my adept-warrior know? I would need only a chart for the spells known, and that would make an excellent idea. However, while I'll probably beg to use it in the campaign I'm in, I may not use it for this idea... Thanks, anyway! Now, for my own thoughts: What about adding, somewhere, a minor rage ability (+2 to Strength and Constitution, +1 to Will saves, -1 to Armor Class)? Something else that seems to be missing is a woodsman of some kind -- a minor ranger, in a sense. Would we be going too far in trying to make an unarmed NPC class? A class of ascetics who can't take the rigors of monastic life but practice basic martial arts?
Lord Schpungus 06-25-05, 01:18 AM	I don't want to go too far into making these real, viable PC classes, such as by adding trapfinding or bonus feats or whatnot. I do like the Adept-domain idea, but maybe I'm biased towards published material.. As for trapfinding, my Thug lacks Search, Disable Device, and Open Lock as class skills, and thus would be unsuitable for such a life. I removed skill mastery and pushed back sneak attack to 3rd, 8th, 13th, and 18th. If I went to Sudden Strike, I would be tempted to push it up, to start at 2nd, or even go to 1, 7, 13, 19. I'm not sure right now.
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-25-05, 12:22 PM	Bias toward published works is not a bad thing -- mostly because you know it's been playtested and such. However, neither is creativity. It's all in how you look at things. In thinking over editing your thug, maybe it would be a good idea to add those class skills and trapfinding at 2nd level, and make sudden strike available at 1st, 10th, and 20th level. Taking out Dex-based skills and giving them access to at least light armor would make them good, roguish minions to back up the warrior heavies in a low-powered thieves' guild. Overall, the thug becomes a low-powered, bare-bones thief of a rogue. As for the mage, maybe a list of staple combat spells such as magic missile and mage armor would be good. I personally like the idea of learning all spells for an NPC arcane caster through bonus Spell Mastery -- it severely limits their power while simultaneously adding in the light flavor of a mage being unable to keep up a wizard's spellbook properly or unable to tap his sorcerer bloodline's latent magic. Now, as for my medium. I've edited it to reflect changes in ideas and other thoughts. I'm still looking for any and all comments on it, so feel free to critique; I'm asking for it! Also, I plan to invent a wild NPC class soon, though he doesn't yet have a name. I may also put up possible edits on the existing NPC classes in a post -- perhaps the first one -- to show a compiled... uhm, thing. New ideas are always welcome!
GEEKAZOID 06-25-05, 08:12 PM	Alright, to rephrase "blah".... Though they have "flavor" in their own right, NPC classes are "blah" relatively speaking. NPC classes are meant to be a non adventuring counterpart to the standard classes, stripped down to bare bones, nothing left but the essentials. In other words, no special abilities. Hmmmm.... this givs me an idea..... :thinks: I'll be back with more on this later :plotting: =To give abilities like sneak attack and trapfinding to an NPC expert would essentialy be redundant. It just amounts to 1 level in rogue. =To give a warrior fighter bonus feats is also redundant. This would make him a full fledged fighter, and he already has access to these feats with normal feat progession. Remember, they still gain feats every 3 lvls and ability boosts every 4. So to build a thug just give a level or two of warrior and a one or two of expert, take stealthy and weapon focus feats and stack up on intimidate and hide/move silent.
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-25-05, 09:34 PM	Well, Geekazoid, you're right -- they were originally meant to be non-adventuring classes. However, all we're suggesting is a set of variants to go along with a variant idea, anyway; how many campaigns do you see with gestalt characters, let alone gestalt NPC classes in a single-class PC game? This set of variants (giving minor abilities to NPC classes) is simply setting the stage for a very low-powered campaign whose characters still have something going for them. As for giving the warrior fighter bonus feats, we're just giving him access to Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and any other fighter-only bonus feats as if he were a fighter; we're not giving him the actual bonus feats. Basically, at 6th level, if he has at least 4 levels in warrior, he can take Weapon Specialization.
GEEKAZOID 06-26-05, 12:09 AM	I'm with you DOG! :cool: Just explaining myself better I am. I'm thoroughly enjoying the variant discussions. And I'm still pondering the spontaneous adept spell list. Should they be allowed the entire list? Or should they have a severely limited selection like the magewright?
GEEKAZOID 06-26-05, 12:35 AM	Hmmmm.... this givs me an idea..... :thinks: I'll be back with more on this later :plotting:Hey all, want to know what I've been up to go HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=453494) and check out my taoist NPC class. But don't forget to come back when you are done.
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-27-05, 03:20 AM	Noce class, Geekazoid. However, in keeping with the spirit of this thread as it's become, I would see about adding one or more of the following abilities, at least for this variant set: Ditch the alignment restriction. Anybody can become an ascetic and hone their bodies and minds; lawfuls just do it better. Add in a minor unarmed strike ability -- maybe their unarmed strikes can deal 1d6 damage, but not scale up like a real monk's. This represents the same kind of body/mind focus that monks have, albeit on a lesser scale. Add maybe one or two ki powers, usable like a ninja's (but maybe not a stealthy ninja's powers). Perhaps something like ki strike (magic) for one round. The use of augury once per day as a spell-like ability, or something similar. An idea I'm reposting from you; this would represent the ascetic knowing something of the future. I'm personally not too thrilled with the thought of any NPC class with two good saves, let alone all three; however, what you've posted does make sense. Perhaps for this variant, I'd just give them good Fort or Ref saves, letting mental mastery present itself with ki powers or augury. Keep up the great work, though! Now all that's needed is, perhaps, a basic archetypical hunter -- a village gatherer, or the tribe's scavenger. Here's an idea... BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1. +0 +0 +2 +0 -- 2. +1 +0 +3 +0 Favored enemy 3. +2 +1 +3 +1 -- 4. +3 +1 +4 +1 -- 5. +3 +1 +4 +1 -- 6. +4 +2 +5 +2 -- 7. +5 +2 +5 +2 -- 8. +6 +2 +6 +2 -- 9. +6 +3 +6 +3 -- 10.+7 +3 +7 +3 -- 11.+8 +3 +7 +3 -- 12.+9 +4 +8 +4 -- 13.+9 +4 +8 +4 -- 14.+10 +4 +9 +4 -- 15.+11 +5 +9 +5 -- 16.+12 +5 +10 +5 -- 17.+12 +5 +10 +5 -- 18.+13 +6 +11 +6 -- 19.+14 +6 +11 +6 -- 20.+15 +6 +12 +6 -- HD: d6. Skills: Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str). 4 + Int modifier skill points. Proficiencies: Simple weapons and shortbows, light armor, no shields. Favored Enemy: As the ranger feature, but only one favored enemy chosen from the following list: Animal, magical beast, plant, vermin. Other options for this variant include the following. They probably shouldn't all be used at once. Wild Empathy: Signifying his link with nature. Animal Companion: As ranger. Combat Style: Archery only, as ranger, and at 3rd, 8th, and 15th levels instead. Any thoughts?
jagggar 06-27-05, 05:44 PM	Hmm, what level to give the warrior the ability though? I mean, how much do you give up if you multiclass to get access to fighter-only feats from another martial class?
GEEKAZOID 06-27-05, 07:41 PM	For the variants I would get rid of multiclass restrictions (might do it for the normal too). If you were to allow the ascetic, what would you gestalt it with? I'm thinking gestalt with your medium, but I still don't know enough about psionics.
Dogurasu_Thanatos 06-28-05, 01:42 AM	Let's see what all we have here: Adept, aristocrat, charlatan, expert, hunter, mage(wright)*, medium, taoist, thug, warrior. That's a good ten classes to gestalt around with. If my combinations are correct, that's... 36 possible gestalt combinations, nine of which could be partially taoist. Adept-Taoist: Basically, a shugenja outside of Rokugan. Aristocrat-Taoist: ...uhm... a rich ascetic? Charlatan-Taoist: A jolly old monk that enjoys a good fight, a good drink, and a good song. Expert-Taoist: Depends on skill choices; one example would be the humble traveler, resolving disputes (Diplomacy/Sense Motive) he hears along the way. Hunter-Taoist: Someone who can gather all kinds of food with his bare hands. Mage-Taoist: The wu jen with a powerful punch. Magewright-Taoist: A guy that has a magically warded hermit cave and makes magic weapons and tools for common folks' hands. Medium-Taoist: A wise man that can gather as much information from you as you can from him. Taoist-Thug: ...another odd combination... a sneaky ascetic thief... Taoist-Warrior: A temple defender. As for the fighter feats, the warrior gets access to them as if he were a fighter equal to his warrior level -- for example, he can't be an adept 19/warrior 1 and still have access to even Weapon Specialization. Basically, such prerequisites become 'fighter or warrior level xth.' * Mages are an NPC class whose link is posted on this thread. If used in a campaign, one should probably discourage or outlaw the use of the magewright, if only to minimize the confusion.
delroland 06-28-05, 05:50 AM	Why specifically outlaw the commoner? It's doubtful anyone would ever suggest it except as a joke.. Because apparently no one thinks it funny in their group. ;)
GEEKAZOID 07-03-05, 03:16 PM	Geekazoid: That would be great, but how many spells would my adept-warrior know? I would need only a chart for the spells known, and that would make an excellent idea. However, while I'll probably beg to use it in the campaign I'm in, I may not use it for this idea... Thanks, anyway! I don't think allowing the adept to spontaneously cast from the entire adept list would overpower it. I think it does boost it up to core class strength though. Am I right?
Dogurasu_Thanatos 07-22-05, 10:32 PM	I don't think allowing the adept to spontaneously cast from the entire adept list would overpower it. I think it does boost it up to core class strength though. Am I right? Maybe not that alone. It would definitely need either more spells per day, a higher BAB, some armor, or some other abilities. Even with spontaneous casting from the adept's full list, it's not quite base-strength to me...
GEEKAZOID 07-28-05, 08:42 PM	:bump: Hey, have you actually played these gestalts yet?
Lord Schpungus 07-28-05, 08:44 PM	I'm starting my NPC gestalt game next week. I'll let ya'all know how it goes.
wi1dfire_b1ue 07-28-05, 10:15 PM	I was actually thinking of doing the same, now that school's over. Good luck!
GEEKAZOID 08-06-05, 08:27 PM	Any word from the update dept?
Urzza 09-14-06, 03:46 PM	:bump:
Siberys 12-06-06, 06:12 PM	Any ideas for an Incarnum NPC class?