Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koga:The ninja trick 07-18-05, 04:47 PM	After some careful observations, tweaking, and examining, The Koga believes he's created a fairly even selection of classes for players in a generic D&D setting using npc classes. You see, his only beef with Dungeons&Dragons is how some classes are groteskly powerful, while others are subpar, and how magick is suppose to be so rare and elusive and yet many of classes master it, alot more "dabble" in it, and a couple copy it and re-name it "psionics".. So The Koga asks you, would a campaighn of npc classes work if they were given these stimulations? The Koga assumes ofcourse the DM has common sense and won't go haywire on the monster encounters for such a game, but he also believes it gives a sense of challenge to the player, like an epic dungeoneering feel such as Legend of Zelda.. Also to insure fair and balanced characters, take away multi-classing/prestige classing, as they break everything.. Adept has d4. The adept much like the cleric for regular classes, get's far too many perks for too little.. Why would the gods intrust adepts with so much power and screw everybody else? There should be reasoning to why everyone just doesn't become a preist.. And adepts retain everything the else the same still giving them a sense of authority in the D&D world, just knocked down a peg to insure game-balance.. Aristocrat has d6, and is only profficent with light/medium armour and all shields, (Exsept tower shields.) Ironic considering how people complain about the regular class version the bard.. But the aristocrat had so many good things and so little bad he made the adept look like an amatuer. It was hard to nerf him without making him unplayable, but The Koga did what he could.. The Warrior has d10. The warrior didn't need to be fixed much to begin with, but being a warrior he should have the know how of weapons, armour, and everything else combat related.. (Sept for maybe exotic weapons, don't want to make him too powerful..) He also has a good BaB which defines him. The commoner has d12 and gains will/fort/ref save of +1 every two levels. (IE level one and two +1, level three and four +2 etc.) The Koga is sure people are going to think he's insane for giving the commoner these traits. But let him ask you, sure a warrior knows how to go into battle and gut the competition, but how would he fare picking at tomatoes all day and plowing the fields? The commoner has to work very hard and endlessly, The Koga thinks the commoner would be entitled to a large sum of HP and a jack of trade on saving throws.. The magewright simply knows all the spells he or she is able to cast at the appropiate level of the magewright list (No spellbooks required.) and can prepare them all without having to consult a wizard's spellbook. Magewrights also choose any 4 skills as class skills but still retain thier old skill list as well. The Koga fealt sorry for the magewright, his spell-list is crap compared to the adept's, and at that he casts them through arcane means. The Koga feels atleast if he gave the magewright some customization room for skills and his high intelligence, he could be worth considering.. The Black Wizard sense he or she has to study to learn spells either chooses an evil diety and learns when they can apporpiately cast those spells all the spells on that evil god's domain list, or if the black wizard is neutral/good, choose any 2 domainds.. (The Black Wizard does not need to be evil to reach his maxium level of spell's known..) Not an offical npc class but The Koga sure people use it. And though the dm could leave him to be very powerful if he wanted too, it's not only nieave, but selfish to believe the dm is going to go out of his way to teach you all these elusive spells simply because you can't learn a list like other normal spellcaster.. Also the whole "i'm evil" thing won't fly in some games, not to meation done this way it makes the black wizard appear like a warlock. Which is sure to gain the n00b's trust.. The Expert chooses any 12 skills as class skills, and gains a bonus feat at first level. The Koga had to ask himself: "why would The Koga prefer an expert over an aristocrat?" The aristocrat had alot of good skills, same BaB and save progression, only 2 less skill points per level, the same HP, (do to my intervention..) but much more profficentcy. (An entire class of weaponry, more armour, shields..) So two extra skills and an extra bonus feat doesn't seem like a particularly unfair tradeoff.. So, what do you think? :)
Hochi-min trail 07-18-05, 05:07 PM	Well, i see you tried to to balance the NPc classes with each other, but here you have another problem - the NPC classes aren;t equal as well. The warrior is vastly superior to the commoner, and so is the adept to it. Enhancing the commoners HD might do the trick in some cases, but it will destroy all logic. Even though the commoner works hard on the fields and such, it is rarely plausible that he will have more HP than the warrior, who fights the good fihgt to protect the town from an invading goblin tribe every week or so.
A Man In Black 07-18-05, 05:10 PM	So you've rebalanced the game simply by making all of the characters much, much weaker? Why?
Koga:The ninja trick 07-18-05, 05:17 PM	So you've rebalanced the game simply by making all of the characters much, much weaker? Why? Simple: The rules thus far are simply too rollplayer heavy.. Just as easily The Koga could ban overpowerd classes like the cleric/druid/warmage/erudite/warlock.. But as you can see the list is rather large, and then you have the arguments of even games otherwise that so and so can't help but be stronger then who'sajiggawhat.. Take for instance the spellthief, fun class, but what hope does it have if someone picks a bard or psychic rogue? And on that note, who would choose a regular bard over one of the variants like the divine bard? No-one in thier right mind would choose charisma over wisdom for a primary stat, especialy with the perks the divine bard gets.. Thereby doing this not only makes the game simplier and more challenging forcing the player's to use thier brains and be team-players, but it insures a sense of balance in power level between the group and the monsters that roam any inhabitents..
A Man In Black 07-18-05, 05:29 PM	Simple: The rules thus far are simply too rollplayer heavy.. Just as easily The Koga could ban overpowerd classes like the cleric/druid/warmage/erudite/warlock.. But as you can see the list is rather large, and then you have the arguments of even games otherwise that so and so can't help but be stronger then who'sajiggawhat.. Take for instance the spellthief, fun class, but what hope does it have if someone picks a bard or psychic rogue? And on that note, who would choose a regular bard over one of the variants like the divine bard? No-one in thier right mind would choose charisma over wisdom for a primary stat, especialy with the perks the divine bard gets. Thereby doing this not only makes the game simplier and more challenging forcing the player's to use thier brains and be team-players, but it insures a sense of balance in power level between the group and the monsters that roam any inhabitents.. Well, no, you've turned the characters into meat for any monsters of their CR after level 5, and drastically reduced the options for players stuck playing the less-inherently-interesting roles. For example, the player stuck with the skill-using role will need to sit out combat for fear of dying because of their low BAB, low HP, and lack of armor, and the character playing the warrior will have basically zero options for customizing the character. You've thrown the baby out with the bathwater, by deciding that the cleric and druid (and a handful of non-core options) are completely imbalanced, and thus that every class is completely irredeemable. Since you've weakened all the classes greatly, the CR system and the XP system both go out of whack, at which point I'm wondering why you're playing D&D because it's for damned sure not the combat system or skill system. I'm also having trouble figuring out how the warmage and warlock are supposed to be game-breakingly imbalanced, or what the Erudite (one of the many, many imbalanced things to come from Paizo Publishing) have to do with anything.
Koga:The ninja trick 07-18-05, 05:52 PM	The CR system yes, the XP system can easily be fixed. Simply place thier level times a thousand. For instance: A level 1 character needs 2,000exp to reach level 2. A level 2 character needs 3,000exp to reach level 3. Etc Etc.. The Koga already said dms would have to use thier common sense. And maybe some monsters abilities would have to be toned down a couple notches to match. (Like say the troll for instance, instead of 3d6 rounds it regenerates a limb, maybe 30d6 rounds..) Little number shifts like that can easily make the game succeptable..
A Man In Black 07-18-05, 05:57 PM	The CR system yes, the XP system can easily be fixed. Simply place thier level times a thousand. For instance: A level 1 character needs 2,000exp to reach level 2. A level 2 character needs 3,000exp to reach level 3. Etc Etc.. The Koga already said dms would have to use thier common sense. And maybe some monsters abilities would have to be toned down a couple notches to match. (Like say the troll for instance, instead of 3d6 rounds it regenerates a limb, maybe 30d6 rounds..) Little number shifts like that can easily make the game succeptable.. How on EARTH does that rebalance the troll? That troll is still going to rip these poor characters limb from limb, and they won't regenerate. And that's just at low levels. How do you expect characters using these classes to ever deal with, say, a hydra? Or any of the fey? Any dragon? A roper? These characters will be able to struggle to deal with level-appropriate foes up to about CR 5. After that, unless the GM consistently lowballs every single foe (or rewrites CR on the fly, no mean feat), the party will be lunchmeat. Have you taken a look at the generic classes in Unearthed Arcana? I think that's much closer to what you're trying to do, without eliminating the players' choices and weakening the characters to the point of breaking the CR system (which is D&D's single really great selling point). I'm still curious how the warmage or the warlock (the +6 unnamed bonus to social skills aside) are supposed to be gamebreaking, or what the heck the Erudite has to do with anything.
spoogemonkey 07-20-05, 04:28 PM	Koga, you meglomanic.... you have converted all PCs into NPCs??!? so, now, you control everyone! How many Kogas are there in the party? Do you ever surprise yourself? Are you winning? I'll bet there are no rules arguments, eh? And no question about who brings the snacks? How do you get into "character"? Do you have separate voices for each one? Are you naturally Schizoid? hahahahahahaha.... ;)
wi1dfire_b1ue 07-23-05, 01:10 PM	A suggestion to make the expert more paltable: allow them to pick their good save. It makes little sense for a blacksmith or a professional dancer to have a high will save, but if you allow experts to choose their best save, it helps make the class make more sense, and gives it a draw that even the aristocrat can't match. Edit: Also, could you link to the Black Wizard class?
Lord Schpungus 07-23-05, 01:59 PM	There was a thread about a month ago that discussed gestalting NPC classes instead of regular PC classes. It was named An Interesting Character Idea... (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=449696) In fact, I liked it so much I made my whole campaign that way. PrCs are in, and encouraged, for my game. Magic doesn't go past 5th level, and the planes are all but gone. To balance this I'm planning on very few Monsters and more normal races with class levels. I'm really looking forward to it. Koga, if you'd post the Black Wizard, or PM it to me, I'd be appreciative. I added the Mage, Medium, Courtesan, Taoist, and Thug NPC classes for more variety. I think they'd help you. They should be in the thread.
wi1dfire_b1ue 07-23-05, 03:41 PM	Courtesan? I don't remember that one.
Lord Schpungus 07-23-05, 03:46 PM	I guess I didn't put it up there. d6, poor bab, good will, no armor, 6+Int and social skills, and 4 bonus skill-feats.
xver 07-23-05, 04:30 PM	Hmm. Could work but the CR system is hosed. It's also a big enough change to justify saying it isn't DnD. Some sort of "d20 Fantasy", I guess. It's a massive global nerf, but could be regarded as more realistic. Whatever that means. A friend of mine has a similar, but ultimatly different system. He had the players in one game start out as commoners. Then they gained access to more classes by adventuring. For instance, if they focus on combat, they'd eventually get access to fighter type classes. Commoner -> Adept -> Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard Commoner -> Expert -> Bard, Monk, Rouge Commoner -> Warrior -> Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger If magewrite was added, you could move the Sorcerer and Wizard to it's path. There isn't a real place for Aristocrats in this system. Of course you could gain access to it by adventureing too. (Be granted a noble title or something.) P.S. If magic dabblers bother you, but you don't want to nerf the whole game, Complete Warrior has non spell caster variants of the Paladin and Ranger. And Athas.org has a rouge like non caster bard. (Athough, I see the bard as full caster and not a dabbler.)