Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dannar 10-03-07, 12:12 AM	My 9th level wizard single handedly took out 3 Displacer Beasts and some crazy mounted barbarian/ranger fey, and the mount. The rest of the party got frightened by a horn the ranger used after the 3rd round. Before combat: Step out of portal, getting stalked by DBs Turn 1.) (Acting first, before "Threatening or Attacking") Charm Monster DB #1 tell it to attack the mount Turn 2.) Phantasmal Killer DB #2 (died) Turn 3.) Hold Monster on DB #3 Turn 4.) Coup De Grace DB #3 (overcame miss chance, 73 on high/low picking high) (Rest of Party Runs, Frightened for 1 minute) (Failed my initial save, rerolled w/ fatespinner ability) Turn 5.) Melf's Acid Arrow on the ranger (hit by bow for 22 points of damage) Turn 6.) Greater Invisibility Turn 7.) Fly Turn 8.) Scorching Ray Turn 9.) Melf's Acid Arrow Turn 10.) Scorching Ray Turn 11.) Magic Missile Turn 12.) Magic Missile Turn 13.) Magic Missile Turn 14.) Magic Missile Turn 15.) Charm Monster on his mount, I have a new mount. (Displacer Beast wasn't going to work so well, what with the constant displacing. Not to mention it ran away as well) This was a CR 13 encounter, and with 1 round of tanking from the rest of the party, I took the rest of the encounter basically by myself. I'm sure a CodZilla could have possibly taken the entire encounter, but not nearly as effectively as my Wizard :-).
bkdubs123 10-03-07, 12:17 AM	congratulations! now you're worthless! (or at least very near... I hate vancian casting... although hopefully you've picked up at least one reserve feat...)
Dannar 10-03-07, 12:19 AM	congratulations! now you're worthless! (or at least very near... I hate vancian casting... although hopefully you've picked up at least one reserve feat...) Yup, he was worthless after that fight, He whipped out his Heightened Rope Trick Scroll and burned it right away, snoozed for 12 hours until he could rememorize spells and go hunt for his other party members who were now lost in the jungle :-)
runestar 10-03-07, 01:50 AM	And your proof that the cleric is not broken is by comparing to the wizard, which you posit is balanced, yet in theory is involved in a 4-way tie for most powerful dnd class?:confused:
Dannar 10-03-07, 01:55 AM	And your proof that the cleric is not broken is by comparing to the wizard, which you posit is balanced, yet in theory is involved in a 4-way tie for most powerful dnd class?:confused: My posit was not that the Cleric (And by association Druid) are balanced. Rather that All the talk on the boards are about CoDZilla and it should be modified to be CaWDsilla. Clerics and Wizards, Druids, Sorcerers. My secondary posit was that the most broken class is still the wizard.
The_Shaman 10-03-07, 04:39 AM	Eventually, perhaps. However I can't help but notice that you've managed to pull off quite a few save-or-negate spells. Killing a displacer with a phantasmal killer? Congrats. End of the line: clerics and druids are overpowered. Wizards are a little less overpowered, but still not in the same league as fighters.
Shadowhowler 10-03-07, 08:50 AM	Yeah... wizards can go nova, blast off all their spells... and basicly toast an encounter. After that, they are useless tho. The Cleric can do the same thing... but afterwards it still has heavy armour and med bab and d8hp, good weapon selection... and thus the ability to still be useful as a melee combatant. The Druid can do the same thing... and still have wildshape, med bab and d8hp, and still be a VERY decent melee combatant. I'd agree that if your only considering ONE encounter... the wizard may apeare to be king of the hill. However, if you look beyond a single encounter... thats when you start to see how powerful a Druid and Cleric are in comparasion to everyone eles.
Nephlite 10-03-07, 08:51 AM	Turn 4.) Coup De Grace DB #3 (overcomes miss chance) (Rest of Party Runs, Frightened for 1 minute) (Failed my initial save, rerolled w/ fatespinner ability) Nope. It doesn't. Read the discription. Coup auto hits for AC not miss chance. In fact, to ignore the concealment takes 2 full roumd actions.
Dannar 10-03-07, 09:41 AM	Nope. It doesn't. Read the discription. Coup auto hits for AC not miss chance. In fact, to ignore the concealment takes 2 full roumd actions. I rolled my percentile and overcame misschance, thus the "Overcame miss chance"
Dannar 10-03-07, 09:49 AM	Eventually, perhaps. However I can't help but notice that you've managed to pull off quite a few save-or-negate spells. Killing a displacer with a phantasmal killer? Congrats. End of the line: clerics and druids are overpowered. Wizards are a little less overpowered, but still not in the same league as fighters. Displacer Beast Will Save is +3. (Another +2 for saves against magical attacks) Fortitude Save is +8. Means the DB rolled one save it had basically no chance on, and one it had to roll a 13 or better on. The Charm Monster and Phantasmal Killer Save DC's were both 23 (4 + 8 + 1) Hold Monster Save DC was 24. They had no chance to save against these things.
Dannar 10-03-07, 09:52 AM	Yeah... wizards can go nova, blast off all their spells... and basicly toast an encounter. After that, they are useless tho. The Cleric can do the same thing... but afterwards it still has heavy armour and med bab and d8hp, good weapon selection... and thus the ability to still be useful as a melee combatant. The Druid can do the same thing... and still have wildshape, med bab and d8hp, and still be a VERY decent melee combatant. I'd agree that if your only considering ONE encounter... the wizard may apeare to be king of the hill. However, if you look beyond a single encounter... thats when you start to see how powerful a Druid and Cleric are in comparasion to everyone eles. I'd rather be useless and finish the encounter alive, than dead :-P. Also, I Dropped an opposing cleric like a little girly a day later with a will save or be dominated :-). (+7 + 6 + 2 = +15 will save, Save DC was 26, he made the first, made him reroll the second and he failed it)
V8122 10-03-07, 09:55 AM	Eventually, perhaps. However I can't help but notice that you've managed to pull off quite a few save-or-negate spells. Killing a displacer with a phantasmal killer? Congrats. End of the line: clerics and druids are overpowered. Wizards are a little less overpowered, but still not in the same league as fighters. If you compare everything to the fighter, than it's obviously overpowered. The Fighter is underpowered.
Dannar 10-03-07, 09:57 AM	If you compare everything to the fighter, than it's obviously overpowered. The Fighter is underpowered. I'm not comparing them to other classes specifically. I'm comparing them to the fact that a 9th level wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid is supposed to be a CR 9, and comes out to be more like a CR 13/14.
The_Shaman 10-03-07, 11:54 AM	You did notice that you have a more than a little hefty spellcasting ability, I presume. To get 23 DC on a phantasmal killer and charm monster, you not only had a spell focus in these two schools, but also a +8 modifier from your intelligence bonus. 26-27 Intelligence at level 9? Congrats: a daily routine, as per the DMG, presumes 4 encounters of equal CR for a day. Do you think you can keep this up for 3 more encounters before resting? Given that you cast 1 5-level spell, 4 4-level ones, 1 3-level one, 3 2-level ones and 4 1-level ones, I'd say - no chance. You went nova: congrats. When the DM allows resting at all times, of course any class with decent per-day abilities will be "broken." To sum it up: wizards are just a little less broken than clerics or druids, and arguably exceed them in some areas. If you've gotten the idea that wizards are underpowered, so are 90% of the PHB classes. As for why there isn't a CoWDzilla, well, for one, it doesn't roll off the tongue so smoothly. However, there's another thing: clerics and druids win not because of their more powerful spellcasting (although in between the more spell slots of the cleric and their spontaneous conversion they are a match for the wizard) but because of their other class abilities. I do agree, however, that for creatures with class levels the CR guidelines are somewhat skewed: the CR are supposed to take into account that the creature is supposed to fight only 1 fight as opposed to several, but in those cases casters have a decisive advantage over noncasters.
PhaedrusXY 10-03-07, 12:01 PM	He's a Fatespinner. He can amp up his DCs a few times per day. Yeah, wizards are powerful. I don't think anyone has disputed that very often. In fact, a wizard who has prepared specifically for an encounter is often regarded as the most powerful class in the game.
Dannar 10-03-07, 12:05 PM	You did notice that you have a more than a little hefty spellcasting ability, I presume. To get 23 DC on a phantasmal killer and charm monster, you not only had a spell focus in these two schools, but also a +8 modifier from your intelligence bonus. 26-27 Intelligence at level 9? Congrats: a daily routine, as per the DMG, presumes 4 encounters of equal CR for a day. Do you think you can keep this up for 3 more encounters before resting? Given that you cast 1 5-level spell, 4 4-level ones, 1 3-level one, 3 2-level ones and 4 1-level ones, I'd say - no chance. You went nova: congrats. When the DM allows resting at all times, of course any class with decent per-day abilities will be "broken." To sum it up: wizards are just a little less broken than clerics or druids, and arguably exceed them in some areas. If you've gotten the idea that wizards are underpowered, so are 90% of the PHB classes. As for why there isn't a CoWDzilla, well, for one, it doesn't roll off the tongue so smoothly. However, there's another thing: clerics and druids win not because of their more powerful spellcasting (although in between the more spell slots of the cleric and their spontaneous conversion they are a match for the wizard) but because of their other class abilities. 24 Intelligence (and Spellcasting Prodigy). The reason I burned through so many spells in this encounter was because the rest of the party was literally caught flat footed. (We're playing through the Demon Webs campaign module). We'd been wandering through an area where the fighters and cleric were not agile enough to move with their armor on so they took their armor off. We hopped through a portal and got ambushed. That was pretty much the determining factor, the rogue (who has the best sense motive check of the group) said "go nova" so I did :-P. If I hadn't gone nova for the encounter, our party would have been toasted off the face of the plane we were on. I'm not looking at this as a whole day survivability, I'm looking at this as a Gotta keep our party from dying in a single encounter. So yes, I went nova, not disputing that fact, What I'm saying is it's easier for a wizard to go nova than it is a cleric, and thus making a wizard broken (even if only for a single encounter, and to save a party's collective butts). The DM doesn't allow us to rest whenever we want. If you note a later post, I said the wizard was almost worthless afterwards, and had to hide out so he could get appropriately armed to go hunt down some wandering party members.
The_Shaman 10-03-07, 12:08 PM	Ah, I thought the +1 came from spell focus in enchanment/illusion. Still, those are still very good DCs for someone of that level - practically impossible with elite array scores, for example.
Dannar 10-03-07, 12:11 PM	Ah, I thought the +1 came from spell focus in enchanment/illusion. Still, those are still very good DCs for someone of that level - practically impossible with elite array scores, for example. Here's where I'm getting my spellcasting DC's. (and I didn't use a single fatespinner dc boosting on this encounter) Sun Elf, (Starting INT 18+2 = 20, on 3 sets of 3d6 reroll 1's, so Ability scores are higher than a 32 point buy, *edit* Mine was a 36) Two boost to intelligence at 4th and 8th level, 22, a headband of int +2, 24, spellcasting prodigy feat (effective 26). Spell Focus in both Enchantment and Illusion Spells. (+1 DC) So your guess was correct, The +1 comes from Spell Focus in enchantment and illusion schools.
PhaedrusXY 10-03-07, 12:22 PM	You're using the 3.0 version of Spellcasting Prodigy. The 3.5 version doesn't affect save DCs.
Dannar 10-03-07, 12:26 PM	You're using the 3.0 version of Spellcasting Prodigy. The 3.5 version doesn't affect save DCs. Duely noted, that must be something in Players Guide to Faerun (A book none of us has). That makes Spellcasting Prodigy a much less necessary feat as a first level character...
Dannar 10-03-07, 12:33 PM	Here was my total spells for the day. (Had planned with the assumption we'd be hopping into the "Beastlands" plane and prepared spells accordingly) 5th: Hold Monster, Dominate Person 4th: Charm Monster 2x, Greater Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer 3rd: Fireball, Haste, Fly, Major Image, Slow, Suggestion 2nd: 2x Scorching Ray, 2x Melf's Acid Arrow, Invisibility, Darkvision 1st: Magic Missile x4, Expeditious Retreat, Alarm
The_Shaman 10-03-07, 12:54 PM	Actually, I'm not quite sure if wizards can go nova easier than clerics - the only difference is that wizards have enough bonus feats to make picking up quicken spell easier. Before that, the only difference is the spells they know and given that clerics have automatic access to any cleric spell anywhere, I think it is possible for them to get enough spells worthy of a full-blown offense.
Dannar 10-03-07, 12:56 PM	I've been looking over the (Core) Spell lists (i.e. d20srd), and so far the Wizard has the advantage over the cleric in nova spells.
Empiro 10-03-07, 06:05 PM	Quite a few things about the character is more powerful than a normal, 25pb core (PHB only) character. In addition, some of the combat rulings are questionable. All the example really shows is that multiple incremental increases to a character's power level can quickly add up to throw off balance entirely: 1) Sun elves -- no PHB races have +2 to int. 2) 18 int -- the highest score in the elite array is a 15 3) Practiced Spellcaster -- 3.5 version does not give you +1 to DCs, as noted by others 4) Fatespinner letting you reroll the save -- without the PrC, you'd have been running away instead of doing anything. 5) Charming a monster doesn't give you full control over it. They don't suddenly consider former friends enemies. They might not attack you, but they certainly won't start attacking their allies. Even for dominate, I allow characters an extra will save because someone attacking an ally with no provocation is "against its nature". 6) Coup de Grace against a displaced creature is debatable -- Normally, you'd have to spend 2 full round actions to do so, as stated by the rules, but displacement isn't "true" full concealment. As a DM, I'd probably require 2 rounds (and not allow you to short-circuit by taking a miss chance), because it makes sense to me, and when in doubt, I lean toward defense instead of offense. Just taking saving throw DCs -- a normal 25 pt buy wizard starting with 16 int would have 18 int base at level 9. Throw in a +2 headband makes 20, or 15 + spell level + 1 for spell focus. This gives a DC of 20 for Phantasmal Killer, which means that the displacer's effective +5 to will and +10 to fort give it a 68.5% chance of making one of those saves, instead of your case, where it only has a 49% chance of making one of the saves. See what a difference just +3 to DC makes? Furthermore, Displacer Beasts are only CR 4. 3 of them makes EL 7, and I don't know what's the CR of that last monster, but lets say it's 7, making the encounter EL 9. So what we have here is a fairly well built, 36 point buy wizard with several feats and abilities that make him even better than a core only wizard soloing a CR 9 enounter through good tactics, a bit of luck, and some favorable rulings. Impressive? Most certainly, but I can see a similarly well-built Cleric, Druid, Barbarian, or even (gasp) Fighter do the same.
Dannar 10-03-07, 06:48 PM	Quite a few things about the character is more powerful than a normal, 25pb core (PHB only) character. In addition, some of the combat rulings are questionable. All the example really shows is that multiple incremental increases to a character's power level can quickly add up to throw off balance entirely: 1) Sun elves -- no PHB races have +2 to int. True, how does this matter in comparing clerics to wizards? 2) 18 int -- the highest score in the elite array is a 15 how does this matter in comparing clerics to wizards? 3) Practiced Spellcaster -- 3.5 version does not give you +1 to DCs, as noted by othersagain, how does this matter? 4) Fatespinner letting you reroll the save -- without the PrC, you'd have been running away instead of doing anything.Actually a big unstated difference is this: While The rest of the party, having stopped worried about the displacer beasts by the end of round 3, had started moving towards/encircling the ranger with his mount, I was finishing off the last displacer beast. The Horn that the ranger used to frighten the rest of the party for 1 minute, would have only shaken me for one round. So yes, he would have failed his save, but then again, so did the cleric in our party who had just as good if not better a will save than me. (compare 14 wisdom to 22 wisdom) 5) Charming a monster doesn't give you full control over it. They don't suddenly consider former friends enemies. They might not attack you, but they certainly won't start attacking their allies. Even for dominate, I allow characters an extra will save because someone attacking an ally with no provocation is "against its nature". Except that our DM Agreed that Displacer Beasts are only just barely above dumb predators, and as long as I didn't order the displacer beast upon the other Displacer Beasts, it was fine and didn't require a reroll. The Ranger's mount was just as much food to the DB as we were. 6) Coup de Grace against a displaced creature is debatable -- Normally, you'd have to spend 2 full round actions to do so, as stated by the rules, but displacement isn't "true" full concealment. As a DM, I'd probably require 2 rounds (and not allow you to short-circuit by taking a miss chance), because it makes sense to me, and when in doubt, I lean toward defense instead of offense. this is one I'm not aware of. As far as I'm aware, he was fully Coup-able with the miss chance, (no full concealment = 1 round) Furthermore, Displacer Beasts are only CR 4. 3 of them makes EL 7, and I don't know what's the CR of that last monster, but lets say it's 7, making the encounter EL 9. Fey Level 9 Ranger (Cr 11 I think) with a CR 9 Mount Certainly not a total CR of 9. so 3 x CR 4 = EL 7 + CR 9 Mount = EL 10 + CR 11 Fey Ranger = Approximately EL 11-12 Encounter. So what we have here is a fairly well built, 36 point buy wizard with several feats and abilities that make him even better than a core only wizard soloing a CR 9 enounter through good tactics, a bit of luck, and some favorable rulings. Impressive? Most certainly, but I can see a similarly well-built Cleric, Druid, Barbarian, or even (gasp) Fighter do the same. The similarly well built fighter didn't have a chance against the DC save of the horn, the Paladin2/Cleric6(Aasimar) failed his save, the rogue very obviously failed his save, and the Psychic Warrior Failed his save, was there a little bit of luck involved? Yes. Could I very well could have run away with the rest of my group, Yes. But their is a very easy access to save rerolls for clerics too, so to say that similarly well-built characters could do the same is a bit of an arms race statement. In fact your whole post is a bit of an arms race post.
Empiro 10-03-07, 07:08 PM	True, how does this matter in comparing clerics to wizards? how does this matter in comparing clerics to wizards? again, how does this matter? All this matters because with higher ability scores, you expect to be able to beat a higher CR encounter, so it doesn't demonstrate relative power. But more importantly, the enemies you faced weren't equipped to deal with invisitility. You took a bunch of rounds plugging away at the ranger while he could not do anything in return. It could have easily been the case that he had a Hand of Glory or some such, allowing him to use See Invisibility and return fire with arrows. Actually a big unstated difference is this: While The rest of the party, having stopped worried about the displacer beasts by the end of round 3, had started moving towards/encircling the ranger with his mount, I was finishing off the last displacer beast. The Horn that the ranger used to frighten the rest of the party for 1 minute, would have only shaken me for one round. So yes, he would have failed his save, but then again, so did the cleric in our party who had just as good if not better a will save than me. (compare 14 wisdom to 22 wisdom) That must be one hell of a hunting horn. A level 6 cleric has +5 base to will saves. 22 wisdom gives you +6 to will saves. I don't know what his charisma is, but I'd guess in the area of 18 for another +4. Add a +2 cloak of resistence or something similar gives you a +17 to will. Too bad the player didn't spring of an extra level of Paladin. Except that our DM Agreed that Displacer Beasts are only just barely above dumb predators, and as long as I didn't order the displacer beast upon the other Displacer Beasts, it was fine and didn't require a reroll. The Ranger's mount was just as much food to the DB as we were. Int 5 is sentient, and I would say at least the intelligence of a young child. Again -- charm doesn't change your perceptions of you own friends. this is one I'm not aware of. As far as I'm aware, he was fully Coup-able with the miss chance, (no full concealment = 1 round) It's not a big point -- the displacer beast would have failed another save the next round anyways. Fey Level 9 Ranger (Cr 11 I think) with a CR 9 Mount Out of curiosity, what was the mount, and what base monster exactly was the ranger? The similarly well built fighter didn't have a chance against the DC save of the horn, the Paladin2/Cleric6(Aasimar) failed his save, the rogue very obviously failed his save, and the Psychic Warrior Failed his save, was there a little bit of luck involved? Yes. Could I very well could have run away with the rest of my group, Yes. But their is a very easy access to save rerolls for clerics too, so to say that similarly well-built characters could do the same is a bit of an arms race statement. In fact your whole post is a bit of an arms race post. That's actually part of my point -- D&D since the PHB has been published has been a bit of an arms race -- non core materials make you more powerful, and monsters in the MM3 and 4 are significantly tougher than the original MM.
danielinthewolvesden 10-03-07, 08:19 PM	Y The Cleric can do the same thing... but afterwards it still has heavy armour and med bab and d8hp, good weapon selection... and thus the ability to still be useful as a melee combatant. . Really? Clerics can cast: Phantasmal Killer, Melf's Acid Arrow Greater Invisibility, Fly,Scorching Ray & Magic Missile? (besides the odd Domain spell, etc) Next of all, who gives a rodents behind about "heavy armour"? No one wears it, not even fighters. And of course, Wizards have scrolls and wands for when they run out- clerics too, yes, but Wizards get Scribe scroll for free, and Craft wand as one choices of several bonus feats. Clerics get neither. Clerics are not "broken". There are cleric BUILDS that are broken- and Wizard builds, Psion Builds, Artificer builds, and esp Druid builds. These are the "BIG Five" and they are all about equally powerful. He also cast only around half his spells for that day. A lot, but he still has around 10 or so.
sigma999 10-04-07, 04:44 AM	Got lucky.
1CentSage 10-04-07, 10:27 AM	The problem is though, that particular examples like the OP's most of the time (and certainly in this case) do not allow to draw general conclusions (except if they are counter examples). At best they can provide an illustration for a general fact if they are in some way "generic" or "typical", that is if they are rather robust against changes of details. The encounter in the OP is rather "special" in many ways as others have pointed out already, so imho it is quite pointless to try to wring some general insight from it.
Dannar 10-04-07, 10:50 AM	The problem is though, that particular examples like the OP's most of the time (and certainly in this case) do not allow to draw general conclusions (except if they are counter examples). At best they can provide an illustration for a general fact if they are in some way "generic" or "typical", that is if they are rather robust against changes of details. The encounter in the OP is rather "special" in many ways as others have pointed out already, so imho it is quite pointless to try to wring some general insight from it. this is the most insight anyone's gleaned from my post yet :-).
Paradox_of_Life 10-04-07, 02:34 PM	this is the most insight anyone's gleaned from my post yet :-). Which is why you posted it (with the title), I'm sure.
Dannar 10-04-07, 02:41 PM	Which is why you posted it (with the title), I'm sure. I'll let everyone else be the judge of that
Dog_O_War 10-04-07, 03:35 PM	Over powered? no class is over-powered or underpowered. You just happened to stumble apon the situation where your particular choice has shined. If you had made even one or two more encounters after that, you would find that you had no power. This is true for any class with a uses/day abilities. Fighters are not under-powered, as there are more situations where a fighter excels than the wizard. *also an interesting note for you to think about on this one: me and a friend had a coversation about how a high level wizard commands such great power per day. But what you have to think of is how many high level wizards there are and how many high level fighter types there are, just to put things into perspective.* All of the classes are based on circumstances and encounter-types. If that major encounter had been a social one, I'm pretty sure the bard/ rogue would've been the show stealer. if it had involved a single iron golem, you would probably have just buffed the fighter and said "tell me how it goes" as you made your way down the hall. The same situational power applies to the cleric. A cleric can't turn a pack of wolves (well, most can't but you understand. besides, how many of you have actually taken the animal domain?), or awe a crowd with tricks and performances, or lay down an AoE spell the size of a McDonald's (as early as a wizard can, that is). He can't box a monk (or a barbarian for that matter) and expect to win, but clearly the cleric has it's own advantages. They just do not apply in every situation. A cleric of your level might not've had the same success as you did against the encounter you described, but I bet he'd 've faired a sight better against you (and infact clerics more often than not have the greatest single-kill power). I've played a cleric that has slain barbarians with single spells, and I've played a wizard who could summon a veritable swarm of lantern archons in but a few rounds (why would anyone do this? take a look at the lantern archon), but at the end of the day these two just do not have the staying power of the fighter, the cunning of the ranger, or the wits of the rogue. Every class has advantages and disadvantages, it is unfortunate that you haven't explored all the possibilities yet. In summary, wizard=cleric=fighter=rogue=etc... Not one is invicible or perfect, but all have qualities that are deserving of admiration.