Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Majorafire77 05-29-07, 06:29 PM	This was an argument presented to me by my DM recently about why he is banning Barbarians in his campaign. There are parts of me that agree with this... but I'm not so sure. I was wondering what you forum-dwellers thought of it, and if it is a valid reason to keep Barbarians out of a game.
MerlintheTuna 05-29-07, 06:33 PM	If you dump Illiteracy (which is stupid to begin with), it's a class like any other. Maybe it's the hot-headed youth that's training his way to the top with guts and hard work instead of thoughtful training and technical expertise. It's still his call, but he really doesn't have a very good foundation here. Now something like the Druid, that's more understandable -- if you don't have nature-worshippers in a world, explaining a guy that turns into a wide variety of animals is a bit tricky. But the Barbarian? He's an angry dude. That's about it.
Kazeofwinds 05-29-07, 06:35 PM	Drop Illiteracy, rename the class Berserker. There, done, a barbarian without the savage wild man flavor.
ServanWolf 05-29-07, 06:39 PM	No, it's not a valid reply. It is true that barbarian is a culture..But it's not the name given to it be the barbarians itself. That's also the reason why a barbarian will never call itself a barbarian but always a warrior (that's written in PHB..and poor player that say barbarian against one :D ). Barbarian defines the fact of a culture with less or no written knowledge in it.. it is a culture that is based on pure intuition and pure belief in nature deities and others...that's the opart of culture in it..and on the same it is the BACKGROUND on which a barbarian character is based. Barbarian itself is the "warrior class" of those wild tribes of places far away with lots of danger where the power of pure rage is often used to protect the others and to kill their enemy like the humans done thousands of years ago when we where killing mammouts and others. You DM is not right with his argument cause he is seeing the barbarian as a normal member of barbarian tribes, but they are (like fighters) elite fighters of their tribe. Those kind of tribes have lots of other kind of classes in it like the sorcerer sometimes or the shaman(even if they can read...but thats magic :) ) or even normal warriors (nearly normal men of their tribe).
seaweed_smokeweed 05-29-07, 06:46 PM	wow, it just sounds like he has no solution to Barbarians in the party
Kakashi22692 05-29-07, 06:46 PM	There is no reason to ban a Barbarian because their backround can be made into something other than the sterotypical screaming yahoo from the north(south, east, or west). One of my good friends and campaign buddy plays a barbarian 99% of the time, enough to make our DM consider such a proposition as above, but if worse comes to worse, you can just make a Hot-headed Fighter(minus the Rage of course.) On a personal note i think that banning Classes without a extremly good reason is very stupid and should not happen at all ever.
Archon of Light 05-29-07, 06:48 PM	That's.... not really a very good reason. :uh-huh: This is simply a confusion in word literation. He is taking the literal use of the word 'barbarian' as we've defined it in our own culture and dismissing the more fantastic imagery and implication, which is more appropriate to a fantasy RPG. Not every person from a barbaric culture has the Barbarian class. Neither is every character with Barbarian levels from a barbaric culture. The Barbarian as a playable class for DnD represents the sum of many ideas collected from both historic and fantasty literature. If it helps him to sleep better, have him rename the Barbarian class to something less offensive to his sensibilities. Try Berserker, Raging Warrior, or Alternative Fighter Class A.
Treantmonklvl20 05-29-07, 06:52 PM	The core classes should be considered a mix of mechanics only, the name and description as more as a possible general character idea for which those mechanics might fit. Pigeonholing core classes limits the game.
DaidojiTaidoru 05-29-07, 06:55 PM	Let's look through the Barbarian class, removing all the flavor text and including only mechanical issues. Basics: Full BAB, d12 HP, good saves fort. So the class is tough and good at fighting. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A barbarian is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Doesn't have heavy armor. Seems like a heavy skirmisher so far. A good class for D&D. Fast Movement (Ex): Also fits in with skirmisher tactics. Illiteracy: No real way to justify this other then cultural prejudice. Of course if you pay 2 skill points this just goes away never to be seen again.... Rage (Ex): Bonus to attack and resilience at the cost of defense. No real cultural significance here. Even using base flavor (something I hate doing) you don't need to be a unwashed savage to freak out and hit people with an axe while angry. Using just the mechanics it's simply a warrior choosing to sacrifice defense for power and resilience by becoming very focused. The focus could be an seething rage, a meditative trance, or righteous zealotry. But that's reflavoring and thus despised by some people for some reason.... Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Good ability for soloing skirmishers and people who don't like being surprised. No real cultural significance. Trap Sense (Ex): Purely adventurer based significance. I see no reason why a uncultured warrior would get a bonus to avoid traps that don't come up in their regular life. How many times on the steppes does a Mongol Warrior (famous Barbarian tribe) run into a poison dart trap? You'd think they'd get a penalty instead. Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): See uncanny dodge. Damage Reduction (Ex): Greater Rage (Ex): Indomitable Will (Ex): Tireless Rage (Ex): Mighty Rage (Ex): See rage The barbarian’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). So like a fighter except they know how to handle themselves while going solo in hostile country. Alignment restriction Chaotic Fits the given flavor for rage. Of course if you change that flavor it's a worthless tack on. ---- Final analysis: Only one thing about the Barbarian class mechanically has anything to do with barbarian tribes. Specifically the one class feature that can be bought off at character creation with 2 skill points.
FreAkOuTRG 05-29-07, 07:44 PM	Purely adventurer based significance. I see no reason why a uncultured warrior would get a bonus to avoid traps that don't come up in their regular life. How many times on the steppes does a Mongol Warrior (famous Barbarian tribe) run into a poison dart trap? You'd think they'd get a penalty instead. I hear it has something to do with Conan the Barbarian.
Realms of Chaos 05-29-07, 09:01 PM	Technically, barbarians are not a culture. Rather, they are any given culture that does not speak your language. That is all.
Batshido 05-29-07, 09:12 PM	Pigeonholing any classes limits the game. Fixed. ;) I would go so far as to say that an inability to divorce mechanics from flavor severely impairs one's ability to enjoy D&D.
Tony Vargas 05-29-07, 09:14 PM	It's a legitimate gripe, but you could 'file off' the cultural aspects and re-cast the barbarian as a 'raging warrior' or 'berserker' (though that brings cultural aspects right back in again, but only to the degree of the Monk or Paladin). For instance, you could remove the illiteracy, and reduce it's skills a little, change some of the flavor text around, and there you are.
Doleth 05-29-07, 10:49 PM	If your DM ban the barbarian because in his world every culture is too advance to be call barbarian, everything that as been said already. If your DM ban the barbarian because he is under the impression that according to the rule book everyone who isn't from the civilisation has the barbarian class, make him read the passage where the book says that barbarian are the elite or special warrior of their culture.
fatal error 05-30-07, 02:00 AM	Seems he's putting the wagon before the horse. Tell him that his statement is correct, and the barbarian class represents the archetypal WARRIOR of that culture. Just because there is a Fighter class, not everyone who fights is a member of that class. Paladins, Rangers, Warriors, and Fighters all "Fighters," in that they fight, but they're not all members of the Fighter class.
The_Shaman 05-30-07, 04:14 AM	To chime in: now, the DM is the final authority of the game. If he or she wants to ban any class, core or not, it's up to her. However, the reason given is imo not a good one. As others have pointed out, barbarian as savage warrior =/= barbarian class. It could be that the PHB barbarian is just an unruly soldier, it could be a rangerish class that supposedly has a link to a totem animal and gains its powers, it could be a sect trained to use its fury in defense of a sacred valley (a la sohei), or anything else. I'm currently playing a barbarian with a hint of draconic ancestry, whose rage comes from tapping into the power in his blood. Also, "barbarian" per se would include practically anyone not speaking Greek. So chances are, 95% of the characters in the setting are barbarians in that sense ;)
wizarddog 05-30-07, 04:53 AM	To chime in: now, the DM is the final authority of the game. If he or she wants to ban any class, core or not, it's up to her. However, the reason given is imo not a good one. As others have pointed out, barbarian as savage warrior =/= barbarian class. It could be that the PHB barbarian is just an unruly soldier, it could be a rangerish class that supposedly has a link to a totem animal and gains its powers, it could be a sect trained to use its fury in defense of a sacred valley (a la sohei), or anything else. I'm currently playing a barbarian with a hint of draconic ancestry, whose rage comes from tapping into the power in his blood. Also, "barbarian" per se would include practically anyone not speaking Greek. So chances are, 95% of the characters in the setting are barbarians in that sense ;) I agree. If you are claiming Barbarians are a culture then you have a broad scope of examples of barbarians; celts, saxons, vikings, native americans, basically any nomadic. He might as well ban druids; They are a culture too. A barbarian is a warrior that has tapped into the primal energies of his ancestry. That's why you can multi-class into it-you've learned to bring out the animalistic power within you. They are no different than a sorcerer tapping into her draconic or celestial heritage. :cool:
Reikei 05-30-07, 06:25 AM	The biggest thing that I would have to say against your DM is that there is no barbarian culture. 'Barbarian' is an adjective that means "brutal, cruel, insensitive person whose behaviour is unacceptable in the society of the speaker." In that sense, the class is spot on. Basically, it is anyone who has lived outside of a governed, urban society so long that they become lawless in morality, and bestial in actions. As for the trapsense that someone mentioned in an above post ... I don't get it either. I suppose you could say that they have sharpened senses, but I think it is more of a way to balance the class to fill in their respective roll then as a flavor ability.
bitnine 05-30-07, 08:35 AM	In my Happy Funtime Class Challenge one of the characters (Netan) was certainly not from a barbaric culture, and yet most folk who guessed pegged him as being best represented by the barbarian class. Here is: Bitnine's Happy Funtime Class Challenge Now I posted this over on another thread, but I suppose its a topic in its own right. Basically, I figured it would be interesting to see some of the takes of y'all on a the classes of party of characters based on a largely in-game description. I really am interesting in seeing peoples takes on this, so please feel free and encouraged to submit a guess. The Party: "So, even after all you've heard about us, you still wish to risk your lives like this?" Netan asked, a slight smile still on his face. By now his sword had moved from resting on his shoulder to in front of him, punctuating his words with slight movement. "If you were just to tell us where she's being held, I'm sure the danger from your employer's displeasure would be much less then that from ours." The cloaked figure took a half step back, and for a moment, Mirra thought he was going to fold or bolt. But then he glanced to his fellows and step forward, bringing a thin sword to bear from under his cloak. Mirra sighed, running her fingers across the holy symbol around her neck. Nothing was ever easy with this bunch. "You may be sure," the lithe figure muttered, "but that certainty is not a luxury that I can share in." By now the mercenary's men had readied themselves as well. The one on the left held a bow, but Mirra's attention turned towards the woman on the right and the scroll case in her hand. Mirra couldn't help but sneak a glance towards Jaal. If she hadn't had seen him conceal himself in the branches, she would never have been able to pick out his slight form. Chiding herself for the peak, Mirra turned her attention back to their opponents. She steadied herself, ready to incinerate the scroll the moment it was loosed from its case. Out of the corner of her eye, she saw Netan's mouth silently moving. She always did wonder what he was saying to himself, but hadn't yet felt comfortable asking him. By the strength of Kalaza'un, by the strength of Kalaza'un... Netan's mantra flowed through his body as well his mind, giving him strength, giving him focus. He could feel the power and the passion of his ancestor fill him, shutting out distraction, sharpening his senses. His eyes were fixed on his opponent, but he could hear Jaal's slight rustle in the trees, even the sound of Illiana's breathing as she stood next to him, still cloaked by her magic. Netan surged forward, thrusting before the cloaked figure could react. Despite the cloak's flair, Netan could feel he scored a hit, and his opponent staggered back. Then there was a bright flash and Netan could see the white purifying fire flowing from Mirra's hands, and the arcanist flinch as the scroll in her hands exploded into hot ash. At the same time, Netan's attention was turned more towards the arrow that whistled through the air and buried itself into his shoulder. Jaal's eyes narrowed as he saw this. For a moment he considered turning his crossbow to fire on the archer, but there would be time for that soon enough. He fired at the arcanist, deftly dropping from the tree before surveying the results. He heard a low disembodied moan in front of him - Illiana. Jaal fought back a shudder. He knew it wasn't deserved; Illiana had proven herself time and again, and even Jaal had occasion to use magics to conceal himself. The moan broke into a rhythm, became a chant, increased in tempo. Then, in a shimmer, Illiana became visible, moving in time to her chant, ducking between her foes as she swayed and thrust with a curved blade in each hand. Jaal the Swift: A self-styled mage hunter, Jaal is a bounty hunter by trade. An agile and skilled warrior and tracker, Jaal uses a mixture of stealth and arcane trinkets to fight his enemies. Jaal is tight-lipped about his past and the reasons for his distrust of arcane magic, but he has shown himself to be trustworthy and devoted. He sees no hypocrisy in working with others or his own use of magic, as he focuses on the misuse of magic and acknowledges that it can be used well - even if he is still left slightly uneasy. Jaal is quick to anger and judges others harshly, something he tries to fight when dealing with other members of the party. He honestly does believe the others to be trustworthy, and his cynical views tell him that such a find is incredibly rare. Mirra Talshane: Born in a small village in the eastlands, as a young child Mirra often received dreams of the White Lady, a regional patron saint. Devout and faithful, Mirra found herself blessed with the gift of magic, able to both heal the wounded and call upon a blistering white fire. The flames she wields are intense, capable of scorching even those creatures who live in flame. She feels honored and humbled by these gifts, and works to help others in repayment. Recently, she has accepted the honor of training as an exorcist and fighting against the undead. Mirra is eager to push the party to accomplish great things, both believing them capable, and that she will be granted greater power to protect others after proving herself. Illiana Ai Tor: Once a soldier in a regional militia, Illiana's unit was caught by an ambush in the sands and slaughtered. Left for dead, she was rescued by a nomad tribe, who took her in as one of their own. To repay them, Illiana stayed with them for a long time, helping them in their tribal conflicts and learning their ways. Long ago she set aside her heavy armor for the light leathers and curved blades of her adopted tribe, learning their war chants and magics. Every battledancer is expected to leave the tribe and experience the world, and Illiana has taken her leave to adventure with the party for a time. She is quiet and almost unreadable, in great contrast to her fierce, exotic and graceful fighting style. Netan Vellan: Netan is the scion of a warrior house, just outside the city-state of Jolar. While he has had little in the way of formal martial training, he grew up accompanying family members in escorting caravans through the desert and fending off bandit attacks. He is more than a capable hand with his greatsword and buckler, and he prays to his ancestors, great heroes, believing that he can focus and channel their strength in battle. While very charming and talkative in most cases, Netan is quiet, single-minded, and focused in battle. Netan is well-read in the history of his family and the region, and far more comfortable along well-marked trails and the city than he is when venturing deeper into the desert. Due to his energetic and charismatic nature, Netan is looked upon as the unofficial leader of the party. May serve as some sort of good example when placed into a categorical syllogism or some such. If Netan is a well-played character, has levels in the barbarian class, and intelligent and cultured, it follows that some characters with levels in the barbarian class can be intelligent, cultured, and well-played.
Ogg 05-30-07, 09:25 AM	You can have him read The Hawk of May which has a character that is a medieval bezerker. The barbarian is really based somewhat off the Celt & Norse bezerkers of legend. They were part of European culture so unless he's playing a solely city campaign eliminating them he should probably eliminate druids & rangers as well.
Northwest 05-30-07, 10:50 AM	In our various campaigns, our use of the barbarian was often only a mechanics effect, particularly for multi-classed barbarians. One was raised in a monastery (bought off illiteracy) and the rage was a religious fervor. Another was working as a gish. The rage was just a magical effect (strength of stone or something)
madbliza 05-30-07, 12:41 PM	The only reason I can see a DM considering banning the Barbarian class is one reason. Role playing. For example, in my current game our barbarian is abusing the fact that he can't read, has a low intelligence, and likes to fight. He basically causes problems for the party and doesn't care because, "I'm a barbarian". Which is stupid and slows down the party. That's the only reason I would ban Barbarians. Especially if that's the standard whenever their is a barbarian in the party.
Yanagita Kunio 05-30-07, 12:44 PM	Hm. One, I'd challenge his fundamental assertion about "barbarian is a culture"; two, I'd point out that the mechanics of the class is adaptable even if the descriptive text constrains it. Barbarian/barbaric/etc-- True to their Greek origin, this family of words have more to do with the process of labeling "the other"--individuals and practices distinct (and lesser than) from what the labeller is accustomed to. The tricky part is that the distinction is subjective, and hinges on an untidy tangle of us-versus-them aesthetic, moral, and cultural evaluations. In many ways, its an "othering term"--a generic label for people that aren't like the observer. Really barbarism/the barbarian are archetypes term blanketing the concept "someone who lives outside--physically or behaviorally--the accepted practices of society." It can be applied equally to whole societies or single individuals. None of this quite fits the bill of what defines a discrete culture: calling a group "barbarians" articulates nothing about their subsistence methods, family and community organizations, or shared worldview...except that it is "other" (and usually inferior/flawed) in the judgement of the perceiver. The text description of D&D Barbarian class assembles a bunch of European concepts of "barbarism" into a pile: a cup of Celtic-Germanic warrior mannerisms, a measure of intellectual underdevelopment, and a dash emotional incontinence, a sprinkle of noble savage. It's not really my favorite bit in the PHB. The mechanics of the class, though, are sound in that they can be used to represent a "tough guy" archetype: the fellow in the vanguard who hits the enemy hard and expects to get hit hard in turn. If you strip the Rage CF of its PHB description, its concrete benefits and disadvantages can be window-dressed in any number of ways--berserk; a trance-like state of optimal focus; a physically-draining martial technique or style (like a sword dance or kata); or even just the anime-hero trope of "I don't want to lose, so I'll just spontaneously get a second wind and a power boost (in spite of having lost more blood than my body by-volume could hold)." If you need extra ammo, point out the web enhancement for Cityscape, which provides alternate features for the Barbarian class that fit it into a "civilized" urban environment. The skillset can be adapted to any trapping/setting.
Anguish2 05-30-07, 01:21 PM	Okay. So, even if we accept the DM's suggesting that barbarians are a culture not a class per se, what precludes such a culture from inclusion in his campaign world? I think it's a fair statement that in real-world 2007, in a world of the Internet and of stem-cell research and a Hubble Space Telescope, there's still an (over)abundance of barbarians to be found. I have difficulty imagining a (rich) campaign setting that somehow makes barbaric cultures nonexistant. Star Trek was utopian. Klingons. Meh. If the DM doesn't like the mechanic, he can and should ban the mechanic. If he's got issues with integrating the descriptive fluff into his campaign setting, then he should clearly define his setting so you the player can write sufficient backstory to justify your choice. If you're not willing, that's one thing. But he should be giving you the room. "Explain to me, dear player, how a barbarian fits into a campaign that takes place entirely within a modern-day hospital in New York City, modeled after the TV show 'ER'." Then it's your problem.