Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Avihs 12-21-04, 07:17 PM	I'd just thought I'd throw this one out there... With the introduction of all of these "Base Classes" thrown out with the Complete series of books and elsewhere. Which of them do you feel are worthy of continuing support? For myself, the Warlock from Complete Arcane(from sheer flavor reasons, and a new approach to magic use) and the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine (for the same reasons). What about your ideas?
al29902 12-21-04, 07:40 PM	The ones you mentioned, plus the hexblade. The warmage is awesome too, but it doesn't really need any new support.
Mirikon 12-21-04, 07:56 PM	Warmage is great, but is pretty much self sufficient as is. Warlock is cool as hell, and I'd love to see more come of it. Wu Jen is an interesting take on the magic thing, if you're in an oriental themed campaign. Otherwise, I wouldn't include it. Spirit Shaman and Shugenja, to me, is in the same boat as Wu Jen to me. Favored Soul is nice, and I'd like to see more for it. Hexblade, Samurai, and Swashbuckler are all great.
Electricall 12-21-04, 08:05 PM	Warlock is redundant. It's like sorcerer with a different mechanic. Munch. A caster with a demonic heritage can be sorcerer just fine, no need to get meddlin' with any of them splat books for that. Plus, I hate it how they use "Eldritch" and "Blast" everywhere. It bores me. Favored One is nice, as I think it has a definite RP room. Divinely gifted, right on. Other than that, no. The splat book base classes suck and really aren't needed, since they're just PrCs with 20-level progressions.
ninjarabbit 12-21-04, 08:12 PM	The Hexbalde needs to be supported given that it is the awesomest class ever. I also think the swashbuckler should be combined with the duelist as a core class.
Arcane Guyver 12-21-04, 08:19 PM	I also think the swashbuckler should be combined with the duelist as a core class. Agreed.
Vaelan 12-21-04, 11:33 PM	Warlock is redundant. It's like sorcerer with a different mechanic. Munch. A caster with a demonic heritage can be sorcerer just fine, no need to get meddlin' with any of them splat books for that. I suppose if you don't care about things like consistency, flavor, or class design then the Sorcerer is just fine. I like the Warlock because it has coherent flavor, which is represented in the mechanics, and is actually different than a Wizard. Sorcerers having demonic(or draconic, for that matter) heritage doesn't make any sense. Their descendents naturally derive how to cast spells due to their magical ancestry when their magical ancestors were not capable of casting spells in the same way? It doesn't make any sense, even within the context of a fantasy setting. I prefer to use Warlocks as inherent casters and to relegate the Sorcerer what it really is: a variant Wizard. You call it redundancy. I call it doing something right. ...they're just PrCs with 20-level progressions. The new base classes are a way to more accurately reflect a concept that isn't quite viable using the PHB alone. PrCs are world-building tools or, for some, Advanced Classes. Would you like to explain this statement, because they seem like separate, distinct ideas to me.
Franco Un-American 12-22-04, 12:57 AM	Seriously. All the new base classes are cool and very usable (when Complete Adventurer comes out the total number will be...35 (If you count CD Shugenja as same as OA Shugenja. Same for CA & OA Wu jen. Also if CW & OA Samurai are 2 different classes, as are Shaman & Spirit Shaman). They all present a new function and are all worthy of further enhancement. (So far only the Artificer & Psionic classes are getting more support.) But if I had to narrow it dowm, there are 5 comcepts very much missing from the core classes: Hexblade: a base gish class Favored Soul: spontaneous divine spells Swashbuckler: Dex-based combatant Warlock: Just plain cool Marshal: Commander/Generl character. These are perhaps most deserving of getting more support. (Unless you include Psionics, in which case that should be made completely core.)
GypsyComet 12-22-04, 02:22 AM	The Favored Soul certainly seems to be a popular choice. Unfortunately, the Favored Soul also makes it quite clear just how crocked the Sorceror is, even (or perhaps especially) in 3.5...
Mirikon 12-22-04, 02:29 AM	Not really, Gypsy. The Favored Soul is just a spontaneous caster version of a Cleric, really. The fact that they are better in melee than a sorcerer simply is the same as the comparison between divine and arcane classes regarding melee.
Hirochicken 12-22-04, 02:55 AM	Plus, I hate it how they use "Eldritch" and "Blast" everywhere. It bores me.. Out of couriosity, how does it bore you when they have only ability with "Eldritch" in it and only one ability with "Blast" in it. I believe the name of that ability is "Eldritch Blast". As for classes, I think that Hexblade is pretty cool, the Warlock is a unique flavor the game has been lacking, and Favored Souls are just awesome.
allenchan 12-22-04, 03:10 AM	Not really, Gypsy. The Favored Soul is just a spontaneous caster version of a Cleric, really. The fact that they are better in melee than a sorcerer simply is the same as the comparison between divine and arcane classes regarding melee. But compare everythign else they get, including energy resistance, wings, etc. and the sorc? Notta. Most of them dont need "more support" imo, specificly the spell casters. Future spells should state they're also for warmages, shamans, etc, since most can use prcs etc that already exist. but I would like more ninja stuff (and the ninja isnt even out yet, eheh) swashbuckler-esque stuff, and warmage. I feel warlock is like the soulknife, and is doomed to its specific mechanics that cant be used with anything else.
Dr. Awkward 12-22-04, 03:17 AM	I've been enjoying the new base classes. I'm especially impressed with the warlock. I kind of wish that there was a reason to take more than 3 levels of swashbuckler, though. I prefer the Unfettered from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed for the dex-based fighter type.
Avihs 12-22-04, 07:36 AM	Aye... the Favored Soul, I forgot about him when I did my original post. Other than that, no. The splat book base classes suck and really aren't needed, since they're just PrCs with 20-level progressions. I'm going to have to disagree with that comment... Yes... these base classes do have a use; A) They can come in handy for the DM to drop into a previously unexplored part of his world, especially with the time constraints that some DMs may be under. Balancing RL with developing solid story lines and working in any game mechanics/houserules is not always feasable. B) Again for the player who is trying to balance RL and his gaming time, the concepts and flavor of many of these classes, provide a solid ground around which to build a PC, without having to cross reference this book and that book, seeking the right combination of classes and Prcs to achieve the result they are looking for in a hero. Of course that is two reasons that can to the top of my head when I read that post/line, I'm sure others will to to mind also. Redundant? Not needed? I think not.
Franco Un-American 12-22-04, 01:25 PM	The Favored Soul needs those extra abilities to stay viable. First of all, the cleric spell list was balanced based on the cleric being able to prepare from the entire cleric spell list. Limiting the FS spells known (while necessary for a spontaneous caster) is moreso of a blow to divine casters than it is to arcane casters. More importantly, the FS has a split casting class. It needs Cha for bonus spells & Wis for DC's. Combined with the necessary physical stats, you get one bas case of MAD.
GypsyComet 12-22-04, 04:04 PM	The Favored Soul needs those extra abilities to stay viable. First of all, the cleric spell list was balanced based on the cleric being able to prepare from the entire cleric spell list. What I find interesting is that you don't think these statements also apply to the Sorc vs Wizard. Limiting the FS spells known (while necessary for a spontaneous caster) is moreso of a blow to divine casters than it is to arcane casters. Care to support that opinion with specifics?
monkeywrench 12-22-04, 04:37 PM	I like all of them, except for the Oriental flavored ones, which I don't care for the flavor of, and the Spirit Shaman, for the same reasons. I also don't like the Warlock's overly dark flavor. The Hexblade is a dark type of fighter, but it's not screaming "PLAY ME EVIL!" The Warlock is. My personal favorites for all the new classes are Hexblade, Warmage, and Favored Soul
Franco Un-American 12-22-04, 05:09 PM	What I find interesting is that you don't think these statements also apply to the Sorc vs Wizard. Because it doesn't. The base arcane spellcaster (the wizard) is nor balanced with the notion that it knows all arcane spells. It has to pay to learn them. Clerics are balanced with the idea that they know all divine spells (on the cleric list) available in the campaign (with perhaps a very few exceptions). Thus, if both those classes are balanced (as I believe they are), the hit to spells known will affect the FS more than the Sorc. As for examples:At each level gained, the FS has to choose between the new healing spells, the new buff spells, and the new blaster-type spells. The cleric doesn't. Both the wizard and sorcerer have to choose as well, it's just that the corc has to wait longer for more choices. That's the difference. But in the end, these two points are relatively minor. The big one is the FS's split casting stat. That more than makes up for the extra abilities.
Ranger REG 12-22-04, 06:39 PM	I like all of them, except for the Oriental flavored ones, which I don't care for the flavor of, and the Spirit Shaman, for the same reasons. I like a few of them. Though I am grateful for WotC to include Asian-themed classes, I don't like the CW version of the Samurai. FWIW, it made me look at the OA Samurai class in a positive light and changed my earlier view (though it could do without the Rokugan trappings). I do like the Spirit Shaman and Shugenja classes in CD. I'm just glad WotC is not making a "Euro-Only" game, though we could use more support.
Avihs 12-22-04, 07:22 PM	I'm just glad WotC is not making a "Euro-Only" game, though we could use more support. Aye, it is nice to see Non-Euro specific stuff in these books. I know I have seen threads about products that people would like to see that focus on other cultures, such as OA. Arabian, South American as well as Ameri-Indian (to name a few) style books would also be nice for filling in some of those possible base classes, like the Swami or the Medicine Man.
Mirikon 12-23-04, 12:00 AM	Personally, going along the lines of non-euro classes and such, I'd like to see some kind of Gambler (Las Vegas, baby!) class put in. And a new Race, too. Southern Redneck. :D
happycows 12-23-04, 12:15 AM	Favored Soul +good save +/- fighting capability just like a cleric - wisdom for saves but cha for spells per day +all the cool stuff like energy resistence, deity weapon feats, and wings - No 25d6 damage spells awww Sorcerer + 25d6 damage spells - only good save is will - no fighting capability - no special things + all you need is charisma So just because a sorcerer falls in comparison in your view... it is just your view. I usually decide to be a sorcerer when I have 1 18 and all 8s and 10s for my other stats.... I mean come on it only makes sense.
Ranger REG 12-23-04, 08:49 PM	Personally, going along the lines of non-euro classes and such, I'd like to see some kind of Gambler (Las Vegas, baby!) class put in. And a new Race, too. Southern Redneck. :D Watch it. I may change my post from Non-Euro to Non-Westerner (including colonials). ;) BTW, if you're open-minded and open-hearted, I strongly recommend Sidewinder: Wild West Adventures (for Player's Handbook owners) and Sidewinder: Recoiled (for d20 Modern Core Rulebook owners).
Wexquif 12-23-04, 09:11 PM	Marshal: Commander/Generl character. These are perhaps most deserving of getting more support. (Unless you include Psionics, in which case that should be made completely core.) I don't think the marshal makes any rp sense, how could you use a standard action to grant another a move action? Yelling alot?
Jedi_Councilman 12-23-04, 09:22 PM	I like new base classes and hope that there continues to be support for each of them, and I hope new ones continue to be produced. Well I don't like them all, but I'm sure that there are people who love the ones that I don't care for and vice verse. My favorites: Marshal Spirit Shaman Wu Jen Warlock Swashbuckler Of them my favorite has had the least support, that being the marshal, but hopefully Battlefield Adventures will have some new support for it and a 3.5 update if necessary. I particularly enjoy these new classes because there are some core classes that I don't like and for the campaign I'm planning I've chosen to eliminate them. The best part is that with all the new classes available my campaign can have more than 11 classes (the number of core classes). I love having options. :)
Avihs 12-23-04, 09:23 PM	Personally, going along the lines of non-euro classes and such, I'd like to see some kind of Gambler (Las Vegas, baby!) class put in. And a new Race, too. Southern Redneck. :D :rofl: Lovin it.... Or ya could do a North-Eastern Class... The Martha Stewart Dominatrix
Braids 12-23-04, 10:16 PM	I don't think I'd use the Swashbuckler, Samurai or the Wu Jen...but most of the others from CA and CW are ok. I don't have CD, so I can't check those. My favorites are the Warlock and Warmage. BTW, can anybody tell me if the Warlock continues to gain Invocations if it takes levels in a PrC that grants aditional Spells per Day/Known? I would think not, but I've seen posts on this board that disagree.
Mirikon 12-23-04, 10:25 PM	This is expressly written in Complete Arcane. The Warlock qualifies for classes that have a caster level requirement, but not a spell level requirement (I.E., no Archmage). PrCs that add +1 to existing class give the Warlock extra invocations, and eldritch blast progression, but no class abilities (improved fiendish resilience, imbue item, etc.)
Braids 12-23-04, 11:38 PM	This is expressly written in Complete Arcane. The Warlock qualifies for classes that have a caster level requirement, but not a spell level requirement (I.E., no Archmage). PrCs that add +1 to existing class give the Warlock extra invocations, and eldritch blast progression, but no class abilities (improved fiendish resilience, imbue item, etc.) Thanks, I read through a couple times, but I may have overlooked it or misunderstood it.
GypsyComet 12-24-04, 01:57 AM	I don't think the marshal makes any rp sense, how could you use a standard action to grant another a move action? Yelling alot? You've apparently never been exposed to the awesome effects of a boot camp DI's voice...
GypsyComet 12-24-04, 02:17 AM	(several paragraphs of "not ever going to agree" deleted) But in the end, these two points are relatively minor. The big one is the FS's split casting stat. That more than makes up for the extra abilities. Only in a point-buy environment for attributes. In a diced attributes game, needing two higher attributes is a non-issue. Why? It's simple: if you don't get the scores to support the class, you don't play the class. Basing class balance on an optional rule (point-buy attributes) is something many people on this board AND at WotC are guilty of, and is a classic blind-spot design flaw.
Wexquif 12-24-04, 08:18 PM	You've apparently never been exposed to the awesome effects of a boot camp DI's voice... Well when one fights for his life he fights his hardest evn without someone yelling at him.
GypsyComet 12-24-04, 09:14 PM	Well when one fights for his life he fights his hardest evn without someone yelling at him. Considering that the classic modes of D&D make it "Subterranean home-invasion homicide-and-robbery, the RPG", motivation can fall short of "fighting for your life" unless you are the monsters... You could concievably treat the Marshal's abilities as akin the the Bene Gesserit's use of the Voice, hitting reactions that most people don't realize they have. (This Dune reference brought to you in support of the "Reading books not published by WotC" Foundation).
Wexquif 12-24-04, 09:38 PM	Still don't understand, but hey I'm not using it, so its ok.
Armence 12-25-04, 01:05 AM	OK, I have the theory, between chatting with my friends when we got complete divine and looking at it myself that the Favored Soul is horribly unbalanced and needs to be fixed. Let's compare it to the cleric since this is what is the closest to it. Assuming that Wizards and Sorcerers are of similar spellcasting power, I won't make an argument for or against spontaneous spellcasting as opposed to prepared spells. So spellcasting abilities are similar in power to that of clerics. Now, let us look at BAB, same, up to now, everything is fine. Now, saves. Clerics get good Fort and Will Saves. Favored Souls have all good saves. Now, everything is fine I thought that has got to be balanced somewhere. Now I get it, Favored Souls do not get to turn or rebuke undead, poor them... (Sure it's a nice ability but how often it is used, well, in my experience VERY rarely) The poor Favored Souls have to settle for a couple of abilities such a Wings, Energy Resistance a free Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization and DR!!!! Poor them... Oh, I found an extra thing, the Favored Souls are not proficient with Heavy Armor. A summary is that a Favored Soul compared to a Cleric trades the ability to turn or rebuke undead and Heavy Armor Proficiency for Wings, Energy Resistance, DR, 2 Feats and an extra good save. I will take that any day. Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but I feel WotC did a really sloppy job on that one. And I was rather disappointed by Complete Divine as a whole, but Favored Souls are just not usable. I hope they publish an errata and fix it. Armence Not really, Gypsy. The Favored Soul is just a spontaneous caster version of a Cleric, really. The fact that they are better in melee than a sorcerer simply is the same as the comparison between divine and arcane classes regarding melee.
Arcane Guyver 12-25-04, 02:23 AM	Like someone said earlier, the split casting stat is harsh if you're using point buy (which, although it's fun to roll stats, are one of the best ways to keep things balanced). Then there's the fact they don't gain domain spells or powers, nor can they spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells (chewing into their spells known). And Undead Turning/Rebuking can be quite powerful, depending on the campaign or adventure. As for why a Favored Soul gets a medium BAB where a Sorcerer doesn't...well, I really have no idea. Every other class, NPCs included, that has all Simple Weapons as a class feature also has a medium BAB... [Edit]: Well, the Adept has a weak BAB and all Simple weapons. But then again, the Adept has a d6 HD... :twitch:
Avihs 12-25-04, 09:23 AM	Well, one reason I can think of for the and discrepancy between the BAB of the Favored Soul and the Sorcerer, would be their parent classes from which they are derived. Cleric = Average BAB and Wiz = Poor BAB
kasthevampire 12-25-04, 09:27 AM	i use the buying points system its alot easier because whenever i roll the highest thing i ever get is mostly a 15 and i get a bunch of 8's
Mirikon 12-25-04, 11:26 AM	Like I said before in this thread, Favored Soul being better in melee than a sorcerer is perfectly fair, considering that pretty much any divine caster class (Favored Soul, Cleric, Druid, etc.) is better in melee than the arcane caster classes (with the possible exception of the Warmage).
BlaineTog 12-25-04, 11:47 AM	Compared to the cleric, the Favored Soul is actually underpowered. No, it's not because of the saves or the special abilities. Those are nice, but not really all that powerful. No, it's not because of the limited spells list. They do get to cast without preperation, so it's only fair. IMX, clerics tend to pick one or two spell sets and cast those all the time. No, it's not even because of the split casting stats. Favored Souls make flippin' awesome gishs, so they shouldn't care a whit about save DCs. IIRC, they have more base spells/day than the Cleric, so they don't even have to emphasize bonus spells all that much. The reason that the favored soul is underpowered in comparison to the cleric (which, IMO, makes it a balanced class) is the same as the primary reason that the cleric is overpowered: Domains. Holy flaming crap, are those ever broken. If domains are removed from the game entierly, the cleric immediatelly drops to a much more manageable power level and the disparity between it and the favored soul -> 0. Moving on... The only splat book base classes that have ever tickled my fancy were all those from the XPH and the Warlock. The CW ones kinda sucked, I've never much liked Divine Casters, and I just don't find the Wu Jen and Warmage interesting. But the Warlock. Damn. So ... very ... cool ... I do wish they hadn't pidgeonholed it's flavor, but that's easy enough to change. Basically, I'd like to see more psionic powers and feats, and more stuff for the warlock. Sorcerers having demonic(or draconic, for that matter) heritage doesn't make any sense. Their descendents naturally derive how to cast spells due to their magical ancestry when their magical ancestors were not capable of casting spells in the same way? It doesn't make any sense, even within the context of a fantasy setting.First of all, it doesn't necessarily have to make perfect sense as long as it's fun. Secondly, just because their ancestor couldn't cast spells doesn't mean that they couldn't have taken the power given to them and turn it into spells. Demons [generally] don't have warlock levlels either, you know.
Mirikon 12-25-04, 12:57 PM	Oh, just noticed that post about how magical heritage doesn't make sense for sorcerers. Basically, that can be explained away pretty easily with a genetics lesson. Same thing as with brown hair, blue eyes, and pale skin are genetic traits that are passed on. However, things like hair or eye color often skip a generation or two. The 'Sorcerer' genes could simply be recessive in nature.
Shadow Blade 12-25-04, 10:02 PM	A summary is that a Favored Soul compared to a Cleric trades the ability to turn or rebuke undead and Heavy Armor Proficiency for Wings, Energy Resistance, DR, 2 Feats and an extra good save. I will take that any day. Fav Soul also trade all spells known in for a small list of spells known. They also trade early able to cast new spell level in for spontaneous casting. And then combine this with the fact that the Cleric also has a form of spontaneous casting and has domains. Also combine this with the fact that the Fav Soul gains wings at level 17 and damage reduction at level 20 and also that two ability scores for his casting... Well, lets just say that I rather play a cleric. It was nice playing a Fav Soul, but I consider the Cleric more powerfull then the Fav Soul. PS: About turning? Ever heard of the Divine Feats. They make turning/rebuking usefull in non-undead campaigns. Uhm, back on topic :embarrass My vote is on the Hexblade, Warlock and the Marshall. My Goliath Marshall could use something more :D
Vaelan 12-25-04, 10:47 PM	First of all, it doesn't necessarily have to make perfect sense as long as it's fun. Secondly, just because their ancestor couldn't cast spells doesn't mean that they couldn't have taken the power given to them and turn it into spells. Demons [generally] don't have warlock levlels either, you know. First of all, my world will make perfect sense, limited to my capabilities. I believe that is an important aspect of creating your own world that is ignored far too often. I would be inclined to believe that Sorcerers use the power given by their magical ancestry to cast spells if they didn't require the exact same components that Wizards do to cast spells. The Wizard certainly doesn't seem to have any innate magical power, so they must manipulate some sort of power outside of themselves. Since Wizards and Sorcerers cast spells in extremely similar ways, it makes sense that they both manipulate magical powers outside of their selves. Further, a Warlock's abilities are much more similar to demonic/draconic powers than a Sorcerer's, whose "powers" do not resemble Spell-Like Abilities in the slightest. I just don't see the connection between magical heritage and the ability to naturally derive a magical art that other people without magical heritage can learn, given years of study. Oh, just noticed that post about how magical heritage doesn't make sense for sorcerers. Basically, that can be explained away pretty easily with a genetics lesson. Same thing as with brown hair, blue eyes, and pale skin are genetic traits that are passed on. However, things like hair or eye color often skip a generation or two. The 'Sorcerer' genes could simply be recessive in nature. I understand genetics quite well, thanks. That isn't my point at all. Likening this to genetics, my problem is similar to the problem with the statement: "Everyone on both sides of my family has blue eyes, so I must have blue hair."
Mirikon 12-26-04, 12:12 AM	How so, Vaelan?
Tealgorthian 12-26-04, 12:24 AM	My Favored Soul had a Wisdom of 14, and still kicked ass... of course, he only had healing and buffing spells. I prefer them to straight clerics, espically if I can take a prestige class, and get either a couple domains, or turn undead attempts. Also, it is fun when they get an exotic weapon ;p Just thought I would interject. I think they are strong, stronger than a sorc, but a cleric is stronger than a wizard. In some cases. (And a Cleric of Mystra is the most broken thing this side of the Hulking Hurler) Have fun arguing ;p
BlaineTog 12-26-04, 02:17 AM	First of all, my world will make perfect sense, limited to my capabilities. I believe that is an important aspect of creating your own world that is ignored far too often.And I believe that absolutely every aspect of the game should be subjugated to fun. If the player wants to have a sorcerer with a demonic heritage, why should you inhibit his fun by stopping him? Fun is the point of the game. I would be inclined to believe that Sorcerers use the power given by their magical ancestry to cast spells if they didn't require the exact same components that Wizards do to cast spells.Not that it's really appliable, but Eschew Materials is the #1 change made to the Sorcerer, IMX. And I'm almost 100% sure that the specific Somatic and Verbal components can actually vary from caster to caster (although the Material components can't without house rules), as per the DMG. [quoe]Further, a Warlock's abilities are much more similar to demonic/draconic powers than a Sorcerer's, whose "powers" do not resemble Spell-Like Abilities in the slightest.[/quote]It doesn't matter. It truly doesn't matter. Sorcerers can get their "batteries" from demons. Just because the demons use those batteries to power flash lights doesn't mean the sorcerer can't use them to power CD players. I just don't see the connection between magical heritage and the ability to naturally derive a magical art that other people without magical heritage can learn, given years of study.It doesn't matter if you see it or not. It only matters that you players see it. I understand genetics quite well, thanks. That isn't my point at all. Likening this to genetics, my problem is similar to the problem with the statement: "Everyone on both sides of my family has blue eyes, so I must have blue hair."A more accurate statement would be: "Everyone on both sides of my family has blue eyes, so that + magic means I can have blue hair." Adding the hand-waving that magic offers is crucial to this whole process. The Core books leave a lot of this stuff ambiguous so that the individual players get to decide how they want it to work for their specific character. My Favored Soul had a Wisdom of 14, and still kicked ass... of course, he only had healing and buffing spells.Exactly.
Sakaki22 12-26-04, 03:50 AM	Here's my little rundown from XPH and the Complete series. Forewarning that everything after this line is opinion based on personal experience, either from reading, playing, or partying with. Psion: I think they're great, even though I've never played one. Their PP system is how I used to wish Sorcerers did it. Psychic Warrior: I like for the same reasons as Psion. Soulknife: Hands down my favorite class in the XPH. I love the flavor and the design. One of my favorite melee classes, and my top pick for going a full 20 Wilder: ... Eh, no experience on it. Hexblade: It's... interesting... I don't like the abilities personally, but I see their usefulness. Samurai: My top pick. Fun melee, fun roleplay, nice abilities, no nonsense. Swashbuckler: One of the classes here that screamed "broken" in my face. Free scaling Dodge, odd bonuses to Reflex, crazy bonuses in flanking and skills, Str and Con damage to critical hits, WITH Int modifier added to damage rolls!? Favored Soul: Well, it seems balanced enough. I just don't like the class itself. Shugenja: I can't put my finger on what this is. Elemental Divine Sorcerer with prepared spells? Spirit Shaman: If I had to play a divine class, it would probably be this. I'm not a fan of druids, but I like this class for it's abilties and it's fluff. Warlock: And the award for most screwed up class is... But seriously. Damage reduction, detect magic at will, fools and screws with magical items, a scaling single-shot attack that can be modified. All for a spellcaster class that can't actually cast spells? I'd never play one or allow one. Warmage: My favorite gith class ever made. I wish I had more chances to play one. Wu Jen: I like this one, too. Less likely to play it, since I'd rather pick a Wizard, but if the rest of the party was something boring... (like my Diabolus Wu Jen. Check January 2005 Dragon magazine for the Diabolus race) Well, this was fun. Anyway, how does everyone feel on the PrCs in the splatbooks?
Vaelan 12-26-04, 08:38 PM	And I believe that absolutely every aspect of the game should be subjugated to fun. If the player wants to have a sorcerer with a demonic heritage, why should you inhibit his fun by stopping him? Fun is the point of the game. I am in no way limiting the fun or choices of my players. It is simply a different, and in my opinion, better, explaination of how the class works. If one of my players wants to have a Sorcerer with demonic heritage, I wouldn't stop him. The demonic heritage just wouldn't the source of his powers. If one of my players wants to play a character with some sort of magical heritage as the source of their power, they can play a Warlock or we can work something else out if the Warlock class is not viable for their character. Somatic and Verbal components can actually vary from caster to caster (although the Material components can't without house rules), as per the DMG. And? Components can vary between Wizards as well. They're still manipulating a power that is not inherent within themselves using those components. Sorcerers using components identifiable by a Wizard(or anyone else with Knowledge: Arcana) in the casting of their spell suggests that they too are manipulating a power not inherent within themselves. This is not consistent with the assumption that Sorcerers cast spells based on inherent power gained from magical ancestry. It doesn't matter. It truly doesn't matter. Sorcerers can get their "batteries" from demons. Just because the demons use those batteries to power flash lights doesn't mean the sorcerer can't use them to power CD players. The battery parallel is faulty because if it were true, then any Somatic or Verbal components needed for a Sorcerer's spellcasting would be at most a mental trigger to releasing their inherent power. I have a hard time believing that anyone with Knowledge: Arcana could recognize such a thing(seeing how different people's minds are) and identify the shape the released power will take and the mental trigger just happens to take the general form of the components Wizards use for their spells. The only thing the battery parallel shows is why Sorcerers can choose spells that their magical ancestor wasn't able to use as a Spell-Like Ability, which isn't the reason why the PHB explaination of Sorcerers doesn't make sense to me. A more accurate statement would be: "Everyone on both sides of my family has blue eyes, so that + magic means I can have blue hair." Adding the hand-waving that magic offers is crucial to this whole process. The Core books leave a lot of this stuff ambiguous so that the individual players get to decide how they want it to work for their specific character. I prefer certain things to make a modicum of sense without resorting to the "Because it's magic!". Sure, there are places where that reasoning will suffice, but I see it as a last resort to be taken when comng up with an explaination just isn't worth the time. I think we're getting a bit away from the actual point I was trying to convey: base classes can be useful world-building tools. Any further discussion of this matter would be more suited for another topic.
Mirikon 12-26-04, 09:37 PM	I've always thought of the difference between wizards and sorcerers like this: Wizards, through intense study and years of practice, have learned to tap into the Weave (or whatever powers magic in your campaign world) to cast spells. Sorcerers have an innate ability due to their heritage to access the weave, using it to cast spells. In other words, unlike Psions, who have their power inside them, Sorcerers have an innate ability to 'channel' the Weave. So while Wizards build their means of access to magic through their studies, Sorcerers are born with it, and learn to use it as they grow.
BlaineTog 12-27-04, 01:48 AM	I am in no way limiting the fun or choices of my players.You most certainly are limiting the choices of your players (arbitrarily, IMO). And?The statement "Sorcerers ... require the exact same components that Wizards do to cast spells" is not true even if each wizard can have different components as well. They're still manipulating a power that is not inherent within themselves using those components.This is a fairly major point of argumentation; it's what TheDarkestOfAngels uses to justify not giving the sorcerer Eschew Materials for free. IMO (and the opinion of many others), the Sorcerer's power comes from his spirit/soul, the wizard's comes from the universe, the psion's comes from his logical mind, the wilder's comes from his emotional mind, and the psychic warrior's comes partially from his body and partially from his lower brain. However, it is also my opinion that much of this was left ambiguous so as to not impose the designer's opinions on gamers. Sorcerers using components identifiable by a Wizard(or anyone else with Knowledge: Arcana) in the casting of their spell suggests that they too are manipulating a power not inherent within themselves. This is not consistent with the assumption that Sorcerers cast spells based on inherent power gained from magical ancestry.Psionics is almost undoubtably inherent power, and yet Psicraft will let anyone with it identify a power being manifested (assuming they make the check, of course). This is all perfectly consistent if we assume that because the effects are all virtually identicle, the casting/manifestings must all contain certain identifying trends. The battery parallel is faulty because if it were true, then any Somatic or Verbal components needed for a Sorcerer's spellcasting would be at most a mental trigger to releasing their inherent power.That logic doesn't follow. Because many of the flavor aspects of magic in D&D arn't nailed down, the triggers could just as easily be verbal and somatic. For example, anyone familiar with Terry Brooks' Voyage of the Jeryl Shannarra series (badly misspelled, I'm sure) will know about Wishsong; it's a form of magic which is passed on genetically but requires the caster to sing. There is no logical neccesity for an internal power source to require a mental trigger. Said internal power source need not be mental. Let's bring Plato into this: The power source exists in the sorcerer's soul. The mind is the thing which determines that spell X must be cast. Therefore, the body must perform some action to activate the power source. Not to say that this is how it is or how it must be, mind you. Only how it can be. I have a hard time believing that anyone with Knowledge: Arcana could recognize such a thing(seeing how different people's minds are) and identify the shape the released power will take and the mental trigger just happens to take the general form of the components Wizards use for their spells.As I said above, if the sorcerer's power source is in his mind, he would be psionic. Therefore, it must exist in another portion of his essense. The only thing the battery parallel shows is why Sorcerers can choose spells that their magical ancestor wasn't able to use as a Spell-Like Ability, which isn't the reason why the PHB explaination of Sorcerers doesn't make sense to me.So a flash light and an MP3 player are really the exact same thing, just with a different color light? If the battery analogy works just fine for spell-likes, then it should work just as fine for spells. I prefer certain things to make a modicum of sense without resorting to the "Because it's magic!".Generally, I agree. But we're talking about sorcerers, magic users who [can] gain their powers becasue their great great great great grand pappy was a manifestation of evil/good/magic/etc. Some hand waving is a necessity. I think we're getting a bit away from the actual point I was trying to convey: base classes can be useful world-building tools.And I disagree with the concept of "world-building," or at least building worlds that the DM won't bend head over heals to make the player's [balanced] concept work. If a player wants to play a sorcerer who's power comes from a demonic ancestor, then by golly, that's what they'll get to play. But you're right, this is off topic.
Tealgorthian 12-27-04, 01:54 AM	Blaine, could I trouble you to elobroate on your "Exactly" comment? There are several things I think you ment, but I'm not sure, and dont want to make assumptions.
Franco Un-American 12-27-04, 02:51 AM	Sorry for pushing this thread back a few posts, but I have to say, I just don't see the brokenness of Domains. They're OK, but not anything really gamebreaking...care to clue me in? Second, GypsyComet, I do believe to correctly attest balance you need to eliminate as many variables as possible, including random ability generation. They base it on the old 15, 14, 13, 12 10, 8 system which works just fine & is what the entire system is based on. You aparrently disagree... PS: I'd like to see those removed paragraphs...missed them before. SO long as they are polite, I enjoy hearing other opinions. Also, I'm not above being swayed by a decent argument...BlaineTog can attest to that (I think).
BlaineTog 12-27-04, 03:22 AM	Blaine, could I trouble you to elobroate on your "Exactly" comment?Even with a very low casting stat, the Favored Soul makes an awesome class. Sorry for pushing this thread back a few posts, but I have to say, I just don't see the brokenness of Domains. They're OK, but not anything really gamebreaking...care to clue me in?They cherry-pick some of the sorcerer/wizard's best spells for the cleric. Especially when you start throwing in domains from splatbooks (or, God forbid, custom domains).
Tealgorthian 12-27-04, 01:15 PM	Even with a very low casting stat, the Favored Soul makes an awesome class. Ah, okay. My greatsword using Favored Soul was still dealing out more damage than the fighter most of the time. As for Domains, Magic is pretty powerful. As are some of the elemental Domains. Travel is strong too.