Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tigris_Mortis 10-30-06, 11:54 PM	Yep, another newbie thread; I'll try and keep the stupidity to a minimum. :D Oh, and if you want to skip all of the superfluous information, skip to the end. The last paragraph has the specific question; I figure I'll leave all of that in, just in case someone has a suggestion I didn't think of. Anyway, I was 'volunteered' to DM a game (running on ~1 month of experience here), and I wanted to create a few NPCs that they could meet up with. Something fun for me, but not powerful enough to usurp their position as mobile-slaughterhouses. I figured that level 1s would be easier to DM for (fewer spells/abilities to balance out), and I figured going with a Kobold as the base race would nerf the holy hell out of this NPC (that, and I always like going for the odd races, even if they have incredible nerfage). It's for this Kobold that I'm considering the "Dread Necromancer" class (as laid out in the "Heroes of Horror" book); and while looks fun to play, there seems to be one major problem: the "Charnel Touch" ability. Charnel Touch: ...At will, but no more than once per round, she can make a melee touch attack against a living foe that deals 1d8 points of damage, +1 per four class levels. This touch heals undead creatures.... Honestly, it looks cool; very, very cool. I was all set to make my kobold necromancer, when I remembered that my past DM had nixed a couple of my character ideas due to overpowered characters. So, I decided to look at the spells he could cast... Inflict Light Wounds: ...deals 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Since undead... At character level one, "Charnel Touch" is basically getting to cast an unlimited number of "inflict light wounds" spells, without having to suffer the attack of opportunity brought on by casting it. I want to keep it (otherwise my Kobold will just get slaughtered in melee; and I really don't want to drop the race), but the way it is it just seems fantasticly cheap (provided I can get the AC to SURVIVE in melee to use it...). [skip to here] Since nerfing the number of uses per day (down from unlimited) would just turn it into X/day uses of Inflict Light Wounds, I was thinking of just nerfing the damage; probably down to 1d4 +1/4 class level. I'm assuming people have played this class, and this is all newbie-theorycrafting, but I'd like to get others' input on this attempt at (not really balance, just an attempt to squelch the class so it can't shine too brightly).
Alan Smithee 10-31-06, 12:50 AM	We have a dread necromancer in our campaign and the Charnal Touch has not seemed to upset game balance. Try leaving it as-is.
WerTwist 10-31-06, 12:57 AM	I wouldn't change it at all, unless you decide to deny fighters weapons with 1d8 or more damage. Sure, charnel touch is a touch attack, but since the DN has the worst BAB, a fighter with a longsword will still hit harder and more often, especially since your DN is a kobold with a -4 to str.
Eela6 10-31-06, 01:09 AM	In all honesty, Charnel Touch won't see much use besides healing your undead unless your Dread Necromancer has Tomb-Tainted Soul (Libris Mortis). Tomb-Tainted Soul allows you to be healed by negative energy/hurt by positive, making Charnel Touch now an unlimited Cure Light wounds - a far better proposition.
WerTwist 10-31-06, 01:32 AM	...making Charnel Touch now an unlimited Cure Light wounds... Not quite, since HoH states that charnel touch only heals 1 HP + 1 per 4 class levels to undead (read: tomb-tainted soul-ed) creatures. That would be 6 HP per round at level 20.
Tempest Stormwind 10-31-06, 01:54 AM	Not quite, since HoH states that charnel touch only heals 1 HP + 1 per 4 class levels to undead (read: tomb-tainted soul-ed) creatures. That would be 6 HP per round at level 20. False. A kobold dread necro isn't undead, and Tomb-Tainted Soul doesn't change that. It says negative energy heals you; therefore it's unlimited self-curing. And yet with all of that, I maintain that even with Tomb Tainted Soul, this won't break the game. Seriously, people seem to have a problem with anything magical and "at will". WHY? (Note: Would your DM adjust a warlock?)
Heahengel 10-31-06, 02:01 AM	Personally, I wouldn't worry about it because Inflict Light Wounds is a really bad spell. I don't think I've seen anyone use it. Ever (although part of that might be the lack of evil clerics in campaigns I've played in). Of course, Inflict spells have will saves (I assume this doesn't). Still, its not so powerful. What level do they get it at? I can see it being a problem at level 1 (maybe), but remember that a warlock gets a ranged touch attack for 1d6 damage at will at first level (and they can use invocations to make it better).
mkill 10-31-06, 02:15 AM	I can only agree... charnel touch is like hitting somebody with a longsword (at a petty BAB and without strength bonus). At higher levels you get more attacks with the longsword, you can boost your strength and you can get it enchanted... No, there is nothing to be nerfed there. Actually, I don't know why some DMs are so anxious about nerfing stuff. Just let the players build their characters however they want, as long as the stuff fits in the campaign. In 99% percent of the cases, you get a party that you can easily handle using appropriate threats for their level. The only exceptions are a few broken builds that you find in the character optimization forum. Some combinations can get way out of hand at later levels. But try to handle it in-game first. If you realize a player (or NPC) was dominating the game in situations where he is not supposed to dominate, get out the nerf bat. But not earlier. Don't start fixing it on assumptions, fix when it becomes apparent it is broken. By the way, by "dominating the game in situations where he is not supposed to dominate", I mean that one character is effortlessly better at stuff another character is supposed to be the specialist at.
WerTwist 10-31-06, 02:43 AM	False. A kobold dread necro isn't undead, and Tomb-Tainted Soul doesn't change that. It says negative energy heals you; therefore it's unlimited self-curing. I wasn't argueing that it's not unlimited self-curing, just about the amount per round. :P Tomb-Tainted Soul Benefit: You are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy as if you were an undead creature. This feat gives no other penalties or benefits of the undead type. Seems pretty clear to me. You heal as an undead creature, and since charnel touch states it only heals undead creatures for 1 HP + 1 per four class levels per use, that's the amount you would heal with TTS, nothing more. ;) And yet with all of that, I maintain that even with Tomb Tainted Soul, this won't break the game. Can't argue with that, even if the full 1d8+ healing were allowed.
josephbt 10-31-06, 04:54 AM	Up to lvl3 Charnell Touch is usefull, but can you see yourself using it past lvl3? Many monsters will ignore your ability. Take, for example, the undead or constructs. Your touch is uselles. And as far as other critters are concerned, just look at it this way. Would you rather cast a spell to defeat a monster of your CR or would you Charnell it? Sure, it will work on orkz and gobos(mostly arround CR1), but when bigger boys come in the play - ogres, dire animals(CR3) - you seriously don't wanna be near them. And even later on, when dragons and their ilk arrive, you won't even remember that you have this ability. Charnell touch is a method for a necro to heal his minions, it is not an offensive ability.
WerTwist 10-31-06, 05:23 AM	...but when bigger boys come in the play - ogres, dire animals(CR3) - you seriously don't wanna be near them... Just don't forget that charnel touch, and its follow-ups, can be used with spectral hand. :)
malisteen 10-31-06, 11:16 AM	Also don't forget the good damage reduction (at low levels), bountiful temporary hit points, and access to emergency self-healing via inflict spells or that negative energy burst ability. From Levels 2 to 5, maybe even 7, the Dread Necro should be living the life of a tank, likely hitting with charnal touch since his BAB prevents him from hitting with a real weapon. Charnal Touch is nice, but not overbalancing. I wouldn't worry about it. A Dread Necromancer is a powerful character, and can break games at level 8, thanks to Animating Undead (powerful undead, and more of them then other characters). Beware the Dread Necro who prestiges into Pale Master for access to free use of Animate Dead once per day. That's trouble. And never let a DN take leadership. Scarry.
Tigris_Mortis 10-31-06, 04:39 PM	I'll restate this for the record: I've got a grand total of a month of experience (1 or 2 times a week); my DM hasn't played in 3 years, nobody else wants to DM, and I didn't object to being volunteered. level 1 characters Seriously, people seem to have a problem with anything magical and "at will". WHY? Because it looks like an unlimited version of a spell, that can't be interrupted. (Note: Would your DM adjust a warlock?) I can't make sense enough of it to answer right now; I'm trying to limit myself to fairly easy (or obviously perfect for the role) classes. Actually, I don't know why some DMs are so anxious about nerfing stuff. Just let the players build their characters however they want, as long as the stuff fits in the campaign. I am the DM, and this is for one of my NPCs (one of the ones I intend for them to pick up along the way). The way I, as the player, want to build it, is just slightly weaker than the average character (kobold base ftw!). I mean that one character is effortlessly better at stuff another character is supposed to be the specialist at. I just didn't expect a mage to have such a viable melee skill. Thanks for the responses guys; I'll give it a shot un-nerfed, and if it proves a problem then my Kobold will suffer a mysterious accident... Ahh, the joys of toying with NPCs. :D
the_fenris_wolf 10-31-06, 07:35 PM	The Dread Necromancers Charnel touch was meant for nothing more than healing to yourself (via Tomb tainted soul) amd your undead horde, though at lower levels (which if i remember you are) it is the DN main weapon as 1d8 damge is pretty good for a spell caster, especiALLY against touch AC
WrathoftheRaven 11-08-06, 06:28 PM	can you do energy substitution on the touch. if so, you get unlimited healing for you and your party;)
Voldar_Mecorthio 11-08-06, 07:35 PM	It's NOT overpowered, although it toes the line if you get Tomb Tainted Soul so you can get infinite healing for yourself. And no, you can't get energy substitution. (but you can use TTS to get healing for you)
Tempest Stormwind 11-08-06, 08:45 PM	can you do energy substitution on the touch. if so, you get unlimited healing for you and your party;) 1) No, as it isn't a spell. 2) Even if it were a spell, it doesn't have one of the five "energy" descriptors (Acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic), which means Energy Substitution can't be added to it. 3) Even if it could, Energy Substitution only lets you choose Acid, Cold, Electricity, or Fire. It doesn't let you choose 'positive'. 4) Even if it did, positive energy isn't necessarily healing. Here's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm) just a (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blessWater.htm) few (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/consecrate.htm) examples. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptUndead.htm)
travellersside 11-09-06, 04:13 PM	4) Even if it did, positive energy isn't necessarily healing. Nope. And even when positive energy heals, there are often unpleasant side-effects, such as death. Hint: If somebody suggests that your heavily injured party makes a quick jaunt to the positive energy plane "because you'll heal up really quick there", ignore them. Too much positive energy causes your cells to attempt their maximum potential - i.e explosive cancers. Positive energy isn't Good and negative energy isn't Evil. They just Are. And messing around with them can lead to quick and unpleasant deaths. This was a general service announcement provided to you by the Planar Cartography Society.
DarkRhystar 11-09-06, 04:28 PM	False. A kobold dread necro isn't undead, and Tomb-Tainted Soul doesn't change that. It says negative energy heals you; therefore it's unlimited self-curing. And yet with all of that, I maintain that even with Tomb Tainted Soul, this won't break the game. Seriously, people seem to have a problem with anything magical and "at will". WHY? (Note: Would your DM adjust a warlock?) I think it's a matter of resources. Classes are expected to use X amount of resources to overcome obstacles and challenges. For magic characters, these resources are spells. For Fighter and Warrior-type characters, these resources are Hit Points. Normally when a Cleric heals a Fighter, the party is simply trading resources (spells for HP). However, when you include unlimited healing, suddenly a portion of the party has unlimited resources (with a few constraints such as time). I think this is the part that bothers people mechanically. Of course, this is equivalent to Fast Healing. Personally, I've played in games with characters that had Fast Healing and it was a great bonus. As to how game-breaking it was, I don't remember the game coming to a grinding halt because of it.
CryoSilver 11-09-06, 04:32 PM	Unless the entire party takes TTS, the DN can only heal himself and his minions, which is not so big of a benefit.