Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aarathi 12-05-03, 09:42 PM	I've an Idea for a fighter variant class much in the spirit of the dragon magazine variant fighters(inspired by) also inspired by the swashbuckler in CW Counts as fighter when multiclassing, cannot take a level of fighter if you are in this class It needs a better name... and lots and lots of input to balance it, i think it is overpowered but I'm not sure how to fix it. my class is: Flavor Text in Summary: Not all fighters have a love of armor and cumbersome weapons, some prefer to carry small weapons and not burden themselves with heavy armors. In order to survive in this manner they must be quick of wit and quick of reflex. They tend to be more skilled than fighters and often seek more social lifestyles because they can wear normal clothes and conceal their weaponry. As PHB fighter except: Weapon and Armor Profs: Finesse Fighter gains NO armor or and profiency in buckler Gains proficiency with all light simple weapons and 2 weapons that are either light weapons or can have weapon finesse applied to them(they can be martial or exotic) Due to the nature of the training involved with taking this class, any character who becomes a Finesse Fighter immediately becomes nonproficient with any weapon that isn't either light or usable with weapon finesse and with all armors and shields(except buckler). They remain so unless they choose to loose all Finesse Fighter class abilities(exchange for fighter levels) Skills are (4+int) Class Skills(with reason included for clarity): -Balance: they are highly mobile, this is a must -Bluff: for feinting, and social situations -Diplomacy: more adept in social interaction than a normal fighter -Escape Artist: a finesse fighter immobile is likely dead(or soon to be) -Jump: mobility is life for finesse fighters -Listen: being caught flat footed is near fatal -Perform: Gotta make a living(they favor perform(weapon drill)) -Sense Motive: Social skills and not to be surprised -Slight of Hand: to hide daggers and such -Spot: to not be surprised -Tumble: moving is good... Class progresses as normal except as follows: -First level instead of a bonus feat the finesse fighter gains weapon finesse, Insightful strike, and associated penalties for armor wearing. Insightful Strike(a shameless rip from a published class): Finesse Fighters add their INT bonus to Damage rolls (in addition to strength) against any creature that isnt immune to criticals or sneak attacks. (only usable when Unarmored) -At every other odd level starting at third(3rd,7th,11th,15th,19th) a finesse fighter gets a +1 dodge bonus to AC -At fifth level a finesse fighter gains Skilled Finesse, it grants them a +1 bonus to hit and damage with weapons used with weapon finesse. This bonus increases to +2(greater skilled finesse) at 13th level and +3(Finesse Mastery) at 17th -At 9th level gains Facinating Style which means: Any who witness a Finesse Fighter in combat must attempt a Will save with a DC equal to the Finesse Fighter's BAB plus their ranks in Perform(Weapon Drill) or be dazzled for the remainder of the round, they may make an additional save at the beginning of each round to ignore the affect for the remainder of combat -Finesse fighters gain faster movement like a monk only at half the rate(where a monk would get +10 a finesse fighter would gain +5) help me please.
mercurywyrm 12-05-03, 10:17 PM	The facinating style has too high a DC. They shouldn't get insightfull strike and should instead get skilled finess earlier and have it scale higher. They should get tumble skill and a few more high level abilites. Definitally give their best ability at lvl 20. They also need climb and use rope if you want to swing from chandeleirs and fight allong cliffs and such. Definitally specify what weapon and armor proficiencies they get. And, I would give them d8 HP and high on Reflex saves. Knoledge (local) could be an interesting skill but only if you want to make them more rougish. And high will saves will make them better able to resist each other's displays. I would also only allow them to do a display a certain number of times per day and have only people who they attack or who attack them "notice" them and thus have to make a save to avoid the affect.
Aarathi 12-05-03, 11:48 PM	Insightful Strike was to show that they strike less for impact and more for exacting blows, i think i will make it Deadly Finesse instead. Have them add their Dex modifier to damage rolls, but not their Strength D8 hit die Fighter BAB 6+int skills(is this too much) Class skills:Balance, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Jump, Listen, Perform(any), Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Spot, Tumble, Use Rope. good saves:Ref, Will bad saves: fort Weapon Profs: Dagger, Punching Dagger, Light Mace, Sickle, Hand Crossbow, and 4 other light weapons or weapons that can be used with weapon finesse (first time readers pay close attention here) Will always be condsidered nonproficient in non-finessable weapons No Armor Proficiency(cannot ever gain) Proficient in buckler only(cannot gain more shield proficiency) 1.Weapon Finesse, Deadly Finesse, Finesse+1 2.bonus feat 3.+1 AC, Facinating Style 4.bonus feat 5.Finesse+2 6.Evasion 7.+2 AC 8.bonus feat 9.Uncanny Dodge 10.bonus feat, Finesse+3 11.+3 AC 12.bonus feat 13.Improved Uncanny Dodge 14.bonus feat 15.+4 AC,Finesse+4 16.bonus feat 17.Finesse+4, Defensive Roll 18.bonus feat 19.+5 AC 20.Finesse+5, Stunning Display Facinating Style: Any who seeks to attack or looks at(subject to DM opinion) a Finesse Fighter in combat must attempt a Will save or be dazzled for as long as they remain in combat with the Finesse Fighter, they may make an additional save at the beginning of each round to ignore the affect for the next 24 hours The DC is 5 plus the Finesse Fighter's ranks in Perform(weapon drill), but this bonus to the DC cannot exceed his class level Stunning Display:You may, sacifice a move equivalent action to make a special display of weapon prowess. Any who views it must make a will save DC 20 or take a standard action to stare at you. Finesse +#: add the value to attack and damage rolls with finesse weapons keep in mind that this class is limited by its low AC and hit points for an almost purely melee class I think it may still be overpowered even after removing a few bonus feats I added in evasion, defensive roll, and uncanny dodge.
Jell_Moo 12-06-03, 12:56 AM	Okey Dokey, here's my two bits... D8 hit die Fine Fighter BAB Ok too. 6+int skills(is this too much) Too much. I would go with either 2 or 4. The Ranger and Bard have 6 skill points per level, but have almost twice as many skills to pick from. This class doesn't need any more than 4 tops, and I wonder even about that. By giving players 6 points you are in effect encouraging them to use Int as a dump stat. Class skills:Balance, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Jump, Listen, Perform(any), Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Spot, Tumble, Use Rope. Ok I suppose, though I would eliminate one of Bluff, Diplomacy or Sense Motive. No other melee class has all three. good saves:Ref, Will bad saves: fort Why does it have a good Will save? That one doesn't fly with me at all. Keep at as having just a good Reflex. Weapon Profs: Dagger, Punching Dagger, Light Mace, Sickle, Hand Crossbow, and 4 other light weapons or weapons that can be used with weapon finesse Rapier should definately be a default weapon. Short sword too. Also note that this class could theoretically start with profs in hand crossbow, whip, and spiked chain. Starting with three exotic profs sets off an alarm in my noggin. Especially the spiked chain as this class would be deadly with it. (first time readers pay close attention here) Will always be condsidered nonproficient in non-finessable weapons No Armor Proficiency(cannot ever gain) Proficient in buckler only(cannot gain more shield proficiency) Here you totally lost me. Why can't this class learn how to use armor or shields? Is there some mystical curse that prevents them from doing so? Fact is that the innability to use a certain armor went away after 2e. You could penalize his abilities if he uses armor or a shield other than a buckler, but you can't say that he can never learn how to use them. Use the monk as an example. He can learn how to use armor if he wants, but he loses a whole slew of class abilities if he does. You'll have to implement something like that here. Facinating Style: Any who seeks to attack or looks at(subject to DM opinion) a Finesse Fighter in combat must attempt a Will save or be dazzled for as long as they remain in combat with the Finesse Fighter, they may make an additional save at the beginning of each round to ignore the affect for the next 24 hours This is too much. As it reads, this ability functions automatically whenevr the character is fighting. He should at least have to use a move action to activate it. Otherwise, you will have groups of enemies being dazzled all the time. Also, make a maximum radius where it works. Something like 10' around the character. Also note that anyone who has perform as a class skill, can snag three levels of this class and have this ability perfectly. A bard would be crazy not to take 4 levels of this class. Stunning Display:You may, sacifice a move equivalent action to make a special display of weapon prowess. Any who views it must make a will save DC 20 or take a standard action to stare at you. As far as class capping abilities go, this is very underwhelming. You give up a move action so that the enemy loses a standard action? Odd to me. Plus, from the wording, any allies that glance in your direction will be affected as well. Finesse +#: add the value to attack and damage rolls with finesse weapons Not unbalancing in and of itself, but worrisome to say the least. Easily very abusable. A spiked Chain guy could get +5 to hit and damage from this, as well as +2 to hit from Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus, and +4 to damage from Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization. Total being +7 to hit and +9 to damage. Before any other bonuses come into play, that is a bloody lot. I added in evasion, defensive roll, and uncanny dodge. ACK! No! This is one of the most overdone things in the game. If you want to, keep 1 of these three (I'd say defensive roll) as there are already plenty of classes with evasion and uncanny dodge. I'm sorry bud, but I think you just tried to pack in way too much. Look at your first level. Weapon Finesse, Deadly Finesse, and Finesse +1. A Rogue would have to be crazy not to go for a 1 level dip in this class. I think you have to rework this guy from the ground up I'm afraid.
master thrower 12-06-03, 06:44 AM	In the book Complete Warrior there is a new class: "Swashbuckler", its similier to what u got up here, with some changes, so I dont think you should continue creating it.
Aarathi 12-06-03, 11:50 AM	first of all, IMO, the swachbuckler in CW is a waste of paper. the nonproficient in armor thing was to prevent class dipping, and i still think it should stay, but they should be able to exchange the levels in this class for levels of fighter if they wish to regain it(must be done at a level up, and they lose class abilities of this class). Nothing says they cannot wear it, but the way they train prevents proficient use, they would have to completely retrain themselves the will save was to prevent them from falling to eachothers saves, but i think i want to get rid of those style things Rangers have two good saves. i thought the skills were a bit high yea,but i want it to be more skilled than regular fighters The class skills were specifically in there because no other melee class has all three, this class is made specifically for that little niche i was thinking i should take out hand crossbow, but i dont know there are variant classes in dragon #310 that start with 4 exotics and on that gets bonus to hit and damage with a weapon at the same rate that this class does
Aarathi 12-06-03, 12:05 PM	D8 hit die Fighter BAB 6+int skills(is this too much) Class skills:Balance, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Jump, Listen, Perform(any), Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Spot, Tumble, Use Rope. good saves:Ref, Will bad saves: fort Weapon Profs: Dagger, Punching Dagger, Light Mace, Sickle, and 4 other light weapons or weapons that can be used with weapon finesse (first time readers pay close attention here) Will always be condsidered nonproficient in non-finessable weapons No Armor Proficiency(cannot ever gain) Proficient in buckler only(cannot gain more shield proficiency) If they wish to wear armor they must retrain themselves(the the next available level they take a level as fighter,thereby switching all levels in this class to fighter and losing abilities of this class. this causes the loss of one level) 1.Weapon Finesse, Deadly Finesse, Finesse+1 2.bonus feat 3.+1 AC 4.bonus feat 5.Finesse+2 6.bonus feat 7.+2 AC 8.bonus feat 9. Defensive Roll(problem..this is one level before rogues get it...) 10.bonus feat, Finesse+3 11.+3 AC 12.bonus feat 13. Acrobatic Mastery 14.bonus feat 15.+4 AC,Finesse+4 16.bonus feat 17.Finesse+4 18.bonus feat 19.+5 AC 20.Finesse+5 Finesse +#: add the value to attack and damage rolls with finesse weapons Defensive Roll: as rogue class skill Acrobatic Mastery: can take 10 on all balance, jump, and tumble checks keep in mind that this class is limited by its low AC and hit points for an almost purely melee class I think it may still be overpowered even after removing a few bonus feats still very much a work in progress
Jell_Moo 12-06-03, 02:43 PM	first of all, IMO, the swachbuckler in CW is a waste of paper. I think it's 'OK' at best. At least it isn't the total piece o' crap that is the Samurai. the nonproficient in armor thing was to prevent class dipping, and i still think it should stay, but they should be able to exchange the levels in this class for levels of fighter if they wish to regain it(must be done at a level up, and they lose class abilities of this class). Nothing says they cannot wear it, but the way they train prevents proficient use, they would have to completely retrain themselves I understand what you mean, but doing this makes a completely new rule that is currently not in the game. It's your choice of course, but the fact is that this is not currently done. I still think it's better if you simply limit the class abilities to when he is unarmored. (i.e. Dodge bonus, Finesse bonus, Deadly Finesse are only available when not encumbered by any armor) The fact that the class simply cannot learn how to wear armor doesn't make any sense. Wizards and Monks can learn how to, it just really to their advantage to do so. This class should use a similar mehanic. the will save was to prevent them from falling to eachothers saves, but i think i want to get rid of those style things Rangers have two good saves. I understand that, but there is absolutely nothing in the archetype of a light/finesse fighter that suggests a good Will save. If you really want 2 good saves, make them Fort and Reflex, as at least there is some precedent to it. Personally I'd go with just the good reflex as it'll help balance the class. i thought the skills were a bit high yea,but i want it to be more skilled than regular fighters Fair enough, then give them 4 points per level. Their skill list is too small for six. Their list is closer to that of a Barbarin who only has 4 points. A finesse fighter should have at least at decent Int, so it'll have more than enough points to go around. The class skills were specifically in there because no other melee class has all three, this class is made specifically for that little niche That's fine. It's not a big deal at all, just thought I'd point it out. there are variant classes in dragon #310 that start with 4 exotics and on that gets bonus to hit and damage with a weapon at the same rate that this class does Well, Dragon is a nice magazine and all, but not everything in it is particularly balanced. Exotic Weapons are usually exotic for a reason, and that's because they can be statistically better than most other ones. As it stands, I look at this class and see the following at first level. Free Weapon Finesse, Dex Bonus to damage, a +1 to hit and damage with a finesseable weapon, 4 free exotic weapons, and 2 good saves. A rogue, bard, monk, druid, some rangers would jump for a single level of this class. Here are my suggestions: - 4 skill points per level - Get rid of the good Will Save. If you must have 2 use Fort, otherwise just use a good Reflex - Weapon Profs: All simple weapons and all light and one handed martial weapons. - Armor Prof: None (Dodge Bonus, and finesse bonus won't work when armor is worn) -=or=- Light armor only, dump the dodge bonus altogether, and say that the finesse bonus doesn't apply when anything higher than light armor is worn. - Defensive Roll at 9th level is fines. It's earlier than Rogues get it, but rogues also have evasion and uncanny dodge, so it works out ok. - Deadly Finesse I would change to adding your Int bonus to damage rather than Dex. Using Dex gives that one stat too much importance. (the only stats you'll need will be Dex and Con). Having your AC, Reflex save, to hit, and damage all tied to one stat is too much. Those are my thoughts at the moment...
Aarathi 12-06-03, 04:10 PM	thank you for the input I think i will use most of your suggestions I think that i still want it to have 1 exotic light weapon, i will try to think of a solution for that light armor sounds good, no dodge bonus, abilities only work when in light armor. reflex is the only good save int bonus on damage rolls instead of str
Aarathi 12-07-03, 01:16 AM	Finesse Fighter(revised, now it is very much just a fighter variant) Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d8. Class Skills The finesse fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex). Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. Good Saves: Reflex Full BAB Class Features All of the following are class features of the finesse fighter. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A finesse fighter is proficient with all light or finesse-able simple and martial weapons and with one chosen weapon which must be light or finesse-able. A chosen weapon is the weapon to which their Skilled Finesse bonus will be applied, it can be one they already are proficient in or an exotic weapon. They gain only light armor proficiency and buckler proficiency Thoughtful Combat: Finesse fighters do not rely on strength for their attacks. They gain the weapon finesse feat for free at first level and replace their strength bonus to damage with their Intelligence bonus(or penalty). This splits their combat ability over two statistics. Skilled Finesse: At first level, and every fifth level thereafter, a finesse fighter adds a +1 to hit and damage with their chosen light or finesse-able weapon Bonus Feats: The finesse fighter gains a bonus feat at 2nd level and every two finesse fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A finesse fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A finesse fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.
AramTheDM 12-09-03, 03:42 AM	why does your finesse fighter not get weapon finesse as a class feature? have you ever thought about making the class unique in the sense that it could finesse any one weapon, as long as you are wearing light or no armor and without a shield? just an idea. The current class strikes me as a more powerful kensai most of the time. Not good. IMHO, of course
Dorian H 12-09-03, 04:05 AM	Thoughg it has been already said, get rid of the exotic weapon proficiency. The spiked chain is an already overpowering weapon, or at least one of the best weapons i the game. If you remove the "feat cost" of it, there is about no reason to use any other weapon. And I don't visualize this guy as a tripping machine I think the class is very interesting, though perhaps a little superior to a fighter, not to mention to a dual wielding ranger. -> three dump stats; one of wich being completely free (show me a reason to have more than 6 in strength), -> good skills & BAB I think there should be some restrictions like : - superior finesse cannot be use mounted (sorry, I don't buy the idea of a spirited charge with a rapier) - cannot "switch back" to fighter. Just my 2 cents
Jaerom Darkwind 12-09-03, 03:24 PM	have you ever looked at my Martial Artist class? It's very versatile, and I think it can be customized into exactly what you're looking for. The link is in my sig.
Sensei Gith 12-09-03, 04:27 PM	Did you by any chance see my swashbuckler class? Yours is almost exactly like mine, but with more stuff. I'd drop the "more stuff" aspect.