Post/Author/DateTime	Post
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-01-07, 10:47 AM	Ok basically it is my opinion that the fighter mechanically sucks to the point of unplayablity. The major porblem that i see is that the fighter does not have any scalable abilities. Such as; a paladins smite, rogue's sneak attack, or monk's unarmed damage. I've toyed with goving some of these class abilities to the fighter, but that seems to attack the generalization feel of the fighter. What I'm looking for is something that will be able to scale as the fighter levels, be mechanically strong enough to compare with other class ablitities, and maintina the flavour of fighters generalist role. Disclaimer: I really don't want to get into a debate about weather or not the fighter sucks, or if otimization and role playing are or are not mutally exclusive. If you really, really want to get into that, please start your own thread. thankx.
LCD2YOU 02-01-07, 10:52 AM	General DR that gets higher based on level. Saves like a Monk. Ability to "shrug off death" for a short time but not in a frenzied state. They are fully capable of knowing they are going to die kind of a "Die Hard" trait for free that's better for a few rounds to go and reach out and touch their killer. I agree.
Comus 02-01-07, 10:58 AM	First, I'd give him proficency with all exotic weapons. Fighter should have it. (Though this doesn't fix the 'dipping' problem.) Then, I'd give him something simple, like scaling bonuses to AC and to-hit/damage. Starts low (+1, maybe even +0), ends really high (in the +20-25 range for damage, maybe +5 for attack rolls.) Might want to make them dependent on Int in some way. Third, I'd increase the number of class skills and skill points. The kinds of skills a Fighter would need if he were a military commander - Diplomacy, Bluff, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), that kind of stuff. Lastly, I'd give them some method of enchanting their own equipment using the craft skill, with no need for spellcasters.
OneWinged4ngel 02-01-07, 12:15 PM	Ok basically it is my opinion that the fighter mechanically sucks to the point of unplayablity. The major porblem that i see is that the fighter does not have any scalable abilities. Such as; a paladins smite, rogue's sneak attack, or monk's unarmed damage. I've toyed with goving some of these class abilities to the fighter, but that seems to attack the generalization feel of the fighter. What I'm looking for is something that will be able to scale as the fighter levels, be mechanically strong enough to compare with other class ablitities, and maintina the flavour of fighters generalist role. Disclaimer: I really don't want to get into a debate about weather or not the fighter sucks, or if otimization and role playing are or are not mutally exclusive. If you really, really want to get into that, please start your own thread. thankx. I recommend Seerow's Fighter rewrite. Or the Warblade, since it really is very similar to the Fighter flavorfully; the Wuxia is optional. The only class in ToB that really shows off the Wuxia element is the Swordsage.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 02-01-07, 12:17 PM	Dr/ac bonus that scales (Perhaps on odd levels so they get something there and the 'Never take an odd fighter level' thing is lessened. Similar scaling bonus of a stackable type to hit and damage. Stagger these to stop iether increasing too fast? Iteratave attacks per 3 rather than 5 Bab. More skill points to alow a fighter to do things outwith combat, Diplomasy, Bluff, sense motave, knolage history for tactics, Nobility as there case of most conflicts and for heraldry, heal for patching wounds between fights.
Novabomb 02-01-07, 12:37 PM	Dr/ac bonus that scales (Perhaps on odd levels so they get something there and the 'Never take an odd fighter level' thing is lessened. Similar scaling bonus of a stackable type to hit and damage. Stagger these to stop iether increasing too fast? Iteratave attacks per 3 rather than 5 Bab. More skill points to alow a fighter to do things outwith combat, Diplomasy, Bluff, sense motave, knolage history for tactics, Nobility as there case of most conflicts and for heraldry, heal for patching wounds between fights. Iteratives every 3 is way too much. Every four might not be too bad
Durandal_1707 02-01-07, 12:40 PM	Oh! I just got an idea! How 'bout we set up an armor/sheild check penalty reduction progression? It would go along five level jumps, like this: 1-5: -1 to Armor and Sheild Penalty 6-10: -2 " " 11-15: -3 " " 16-20: -4 " " Or, how 'bout at some level around ten, the fighter no longer takes the speed penalty for medium armor, but still for medium loads? Or, and this may be the craziest yet, second wind! Heres how I say it should work, once per day when the fighter has been knocked into the negatives, he can chose to do a fortitude save instead of his stablization roll at a DC 10 - current hit points. If the fort save is sucessful, he stablizes, becomes concious, and his HP is set to 1. Yes, one, not 0. Crazy, eh?
Someone 02-01-07, 12:55 PM	Make a lot more feats able to be taken as fighter bonus feats. Has a BAB prereq? Fighter feat. Has a feat that can be taken as a fighter bonus feat as a prereq? Fighter feat. Weapon focus/specialization are sort of scalable, but that's only for one weapon, and the rate of return isn't that great.
Yami 02-01-07, 01:09 PM	Weapon focus/specialization are sort of scalable, but that's only for one weapon, and the rate of return isn't that great. I've always wondered why the weapon focus/specialization line of feats couldn't be bonus feats granted at all odd levels. As mentioned above, they're not terribly scalable, but seem a very simple way to bring the fighter forward a little. If all prereqs are left as is, the fighter would have two weapons with weapon focus for "free" at 3rd level, and at 7th they could have either two weapons with Weapon Focus / Weapon Specialization, or four weapons with weapon focus, or something in between. There were more "fighter only" feats addd in the PHB II, iirc (afb) that maybe should be added to this chain. This preserves the generalist flavor of the fighter, and in spite of granting a 3rd feat (maybe overkill?) to a 1st level character, weapon focus is good but hardly game breaking. Meh, well, it's just an idea that's been juggling through my head occasionally. Make of it what you will. :)
Ghenesh 02-01-07, 01:18 PM	I have tried to fix the fighter many times with core solutions, this is my third simple fix. This time i concentrated on extra bonus feats, skill points, saves and AC. One thing that i consider important when making this variants is that the bonus feats are what make this class what it is, so i usually keep the first two levels and the saves just as they are in the core book. Once, Tony Vargas said that the value (and the versatility) of the Fighter Bonus feat is variable, and depends on the quantity of fighter feats (directly dependant of the source books used) accepted in your game, so i revamped the "14 bonus feats fighter" with a twist. My first variant was focused on gaining some class features at the odd levels, specifically the Weapon Focus / Specialization feat tree with Uncanny Dodge... then i realized that it wasn't really the way to go, not everyone wants to be a weapon master. My second variant focused on improving the feats, at some odd levels you can upgrade any given feat you have gaining special features related to that feat, per example Thoughness (although it's not a fighter feat) became Improved Thoughness based on you Fighter levels, or you can choose two enemies to benefit from the Dodge feat (or stack the benefits and gain a +2 dodge bonus from the same), but it required a very exhaustive revision on the feats and the solution was too complicated, not nearly as complex as some fixes i have seen posted in these forums, but not simple enough to be accepted as a core simple class. Fighter (fix 1.3) Alignment: Any Hit Die: d10 Class Skills (key ability): Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Combat and War) (Int), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis) and Swim (Str). Skill Points at first level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier Table 1: The Fighter Fort Ref Will Level BAB Save Save Save Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Fighter Bonus Feat 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Fighter Bonus Feat 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Combat Resistance 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Fighter Bonus Feat 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Fighter Bonus Feat 6th +6 +5 +2 +2 AC Dodge Bonus +1 7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Fighter Bonus Feat 8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Fighter Bonus Feat 9th +9 +6 +3 +3 Combat Resistance 10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Fighter Bonus Feat 11th +11 +7 +3 +3 Fighter Bonus Feat 12th +12 +8 +4 +4 AC Dodge Bonus +2 13th +13 +8 +4 +4 Fighter Bonus Feat 14th +14 +9 +4 +4 Fighter Bonus Feat 15th +15 +9 +5 +5 Combat Resistance 16th +16 +10 +5 +5 Fighter Bonus Feat 17th +17 +10 +5 +5 Fighter Bonus Feat 18th +18 +11 +6 +6 AC Dodge Bonus +3 19th +19 +11 +6 +6 Fighter Bonus Feat 20th +20 +12 +6 +6 Fighter Bonus Feat Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fighters are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armors (light, medium and heavy), and with all shields (including tower shields). Fighter Bonus Feat: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at every level that is not a multiple of 3 (2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, 19th, 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. Combat Resistance (ex): The fighter learns to resist the hazards of combat. At levels 3rd, 9th and 15th the fighter must choose one of the three saving throws (Fortitude, Reflex or Will), she gains a +1 bonus on all of the selected saving throws. AC Dodge Bonus (ex): The fighter improves her defense with combat expertise. At 6th level the fighter gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC, this bonus improves to +2 at 12th level and to +3 at 18th level.
Finarin Panjoro 02-01-07, 01:47 PM	I have also tried to fix the fighter. I think there are two problems with fighters. The first is that fighters are supposed to be generalist warriors, but the system rewards specialist warriors. The second is that there are many warrior archetypes that the fighter does not adequately represent (general, sheriff, bounty hunter, commando, sentinel, etc). I addressed the first issue with a fighter bonus feat called Weapons Master. WEAPONS MASTER [General, Fighter] You are a master of multiple different weapons. Prerequisite: Fighter level 10, weapon focus and weapon specialization in the same weapon. Benefit: You may apply the benefits of weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization, and improved critical to all weapons for which you have the weapon focus feat. You may only apply the benefits of feats which you possess to your weapons (if you've never taken improved critical with any weapon you cannot apply it). Special: A fighter may choose weapons master as one of his fighter bonus feats. This allows the fighter to spend 8 feats to gain +2 atk, +4 damage, and doubled threat range with three weapons. If he takes a melee, a ranged, and a mounted weapon he then has 10 feats left (11 if human) specializing in multiple areas (3 melee, 3 ranged, 2 mounted, and 2 general for example). This turns him into the versatile fighter that he's meant to be. He might not defeat the barbarian in melee, but he'll waste him mounted combat or at range. He might not defeat the ranger at range, but he'll destroy him on horseback or up close. This allows the fighter to function at a much higher level in multiple types of engagements, just as advertised. The second feat was Skill Emphasis: SKILL EMPHASIS [General, Fighter] You have focused you combat training in a specific area. Prerequisites: Fighter level 1 Benefit: You select any +2/+2 skill boosting feat (such as alertness) and in addition to the normal benefits those two skills become fighter class skills for you. If you choose a feat which boosts a fighter skill (such as athletic) then you gain a +3 bonus to that fighter skill. Special: A fighter may choose skill emphasis as one of his fighter bonus feats. This allows the fighter to fit the missing archetypes. If he's a general he takes Skill Emphasis: negotiator if he's a commando he takes Skill Emphasis: stealthy, a sheriff takes Skill Emphasis: Investigator, a woodsman takes Skill Emphasis: Survivalist, a mage hunter: Skill Emphasis: magical aptitude, and so on. This also allows the fighter a chance to contribute to the party in non-combat situations and encourages them to invest a few ranks in cross-class skills for diversity and synergy bonuses. Note that I came up with this before the PHB2 came out with their weapon mastery feats. I still use this system instead because I find it more effective and interesting. Just my approach to fixing the fighter.
Merryadocc 02-01-07, 01:48 PM	First of all, here's two random suggestions; At the dead levels give them a bonus pre-set feat, e.g. level 5 Combat Reflexes, level 7 Endurance, level 11 Blindfight, level 13, 17, and 19 give them another usefull but yet not popular feat. Upping the skills to 4 + INT couldn't hurt, and add Survival, Spot, and Listen to the skill list. With the introduction of Melee Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremecy from Players Handbook 2 I think fighters got an indirect raw deal, as Warblades can qualify for fighter feats as if they are a fighter 2 levels lower. A level 20 Warblade with Weapon Supremcy is sickening, it makes the fighter look too weak. So here is a suggestion for making a better fighter. At level 4 Weapon Specialization is compulsory, at level 8 Melee Weapon Mastery is compulsory (and it covers Peircing/Bludgeoning/Slashing), at level 10 Greater Weapon Focus is compulsory, at level 12 Greater Weapon Specialization is compulsory, at level 18 Weapon Supremecy is compulsory. Now here is the difference, the feats apply to any weapon you have applied the feat Weapon Focus to, so you need only ever take those feats once, that should make the fighter a little more versatile and scalable. Combine it with the idea of giving them 4 + INT skill points and they will still have a very core feel but be more worthwhile playing. My :twocents: , hope it helps.
Merryadocc 02-01-07, 01:54 PM	Argh! Finarin Panjoro posted before me, he wasn't there when I was writing my repsonse. :eek:
Ghenesh 02-01-07, 02:03 PM	I don't believe the fix go in the way of fixed feats, this contradicts with the flavor of the Fighter Class... and that's being a Combatant Template, what if the player wants "Blindfight" at first level... if Blindfight is the feature at 11th level then he's not gonna take it for optimization reasons, even postulating that, if the fighter has already taken the feat, then the feature becomes a Fighter Bonus Feat, it's a better deal to grant more Fighter Bonus Feats. About Finarin feats, i like the idea on Weapons Master, although it's wording is kinda confusing... and the other feat (Skill Emphasis) it's not quite flavorful for the fighter, it's just better to give the fighter class a better skill list and more skill points.
drake_vampiel_d 02-01-07, 02:15 PM	personally I think the fighter is awsome since they get so many extra feats that are kick ***** but if you want to do something to add a scaleable point to them Run with DR and start at second level because by that time they have learned to take a hit. Start DR 2/magic and then by 20th level have it be somthing like DR 10/epic.
Seerow 02-01-07, 02:20 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728493 Done and Done.
High Octane 02-01-07, 02:44 PM	I would just increase the skill points he gets to 4 + Int AND the number of class skills he has should increase, as well as giving him Mettle on one of his odd levels. (Mettle, unless I am mistaken, allows him to take no damage on a fort save that normally result in partial damage) The fighter is not as bad as people paint it.
Comus 02-01-07, 02:54 PM	I would just increase the skill points he gets to 4 + Int AND the number of class skills he has should increase, as well as giving him Mettle on one of his odd levels. (Mettle, unless I am mistaken, allows him to take no damage on a fort save that normally result in partial damage) The fighter is not as bad as people paint it. I think the fighter needs more than that, just to give people a reason to keep going in the class instead of prestiging out. Scaling abilities tend to work well, which is why I suggested them.
High Octane 02-01-07, 03:30 PM	I think the fighter needs more than that, just to give people a reason to keep going in the class instead of prestiging out. Scaling abilities tend to work well, which is why I suggested them. Feats scale with increased BAB requirements, so the fighter does scale. I do agree that there should be more reason to take later levels, so thats why I suggested some abilities like Mettle, or perhaps expand the fighter bonus feat list to include the save bonuses like Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes. I like the fighter being as generalized as possible.
The_Puppetmaster 02-01-07, 03:41 PM	lol... too much clutter. I'll add it in another thread.
Ghenesh 02-01-07, 03:52 PM	I like the fighter being as generalized as possible. Then why don't you just use the fighter fix with 14 bonus feats and make those class features high end feats with heavy prerequisites, Say: Uncanny Dodge Prerequisites: Wis 13, Dodge, Mobility, Blind Fight, BAB +6 Improved Uncanny Dodge Prerequisites: Wis 13, Dodge, Mobility, Blind Fight, Uncanny Dodge, BAB +9 Mettle Prerequisites: Endurance, Thoughness, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Con 13, Wis 13, Fortitude Save Bonus +5 Damage Reduction 2/-- Prerequisites: Endurance, Diehard, Thoughness, Con 15, BAB +6 Evasion Prerequisites: Lightning Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Dex 13, Reflex Save Bonus +2 Improved Evasion Prerequisites: Lightning Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Evasion, Dex 15, Reflex Save Bonus +4 And make all the feats named here Fighter Bonus feats. Puppetmaster: I like the simplicity of your fix, but don't like the idea of it becoming a weaponmaster of the same weapon from level 1 to 20, i don't like the idea of adding non-core features into this (some of us don't have the PHBII), diplomacy seems a bit off as a class skill, overall seems a good fix... but i'm gonna miss the lost feat.
ZombieDragon 02-01-07, 03:54 PM	Posted mine in the classes section, where this thread probably should be. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=783400
High Octane 02-01-07, 03:58 PM	Then why don't you just use the fighter fix with 14 bonus feats and make those class features high end feats with heavy prerequisites. Say: Uncanny Dodge Prerequisites: Wis 13, Dodge, Mobility, Blind Fight, BAB +6 Improved Uncanny Dodge Prerequisites: Wis 13, Dodge, Mobility, Blind Fight, Uncanny Dodge, BAB +9 Mettle Prerequisites: Endurance, Thoughness, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Con 13, Wis 13, Fortitude Save Bonus +5 Damage Reduction 2/-- Prerequisites: Endurance, Diehard, Thoughness, Con 15, BAB +6 Evasion Prerequisites: Lightning Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Dex 13, Reflex Save Bonus +2 Improved Evasion Prerequisites: Lightning Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Evasion, Dex 15, Reflex Save Bonus +4 And make all the feats named here Fighter Bonus feats. The last thing I want is to turn class abilities into feats. And 14 bonus feats for a fighter? Thats going overboard.
MagnaSecuris 02-01-07, 04:12 PM	Give Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes for free. Also, give some free EWPs. It might also be worth it to let a player dedicated to playing Fighter (you know he's not going to multiclass out) to have a higher point buy at character creation.
Downtym 02-01-07, 04:14 PM	Ok basically it is my opinion that the fighter mechanically sucks to the point of unplayablity. The major porblem that i see is that the fighter does not have any scalable abilities. Such as; a paladins smite, rogue's sneak attack, or monk's unarmed damage. I've toyed with goving some of these class abilities to the fighter, but that seems to attack the generalization feel of the fighter. What I'm looking for is something that will be able to scale as the fighter levels, be mechanically strong enough to compare with other class ablitities, and maintina the flavour of fighters generalist role. Disclaimer: I really don't want to get into a debate about weather or not the fighter sucks, or if otimization and role playing are or are not mutally exclusive. If you really, really want to get into that, please start your own thread. thankx. Having played a fighter for about a year and some change, I feel that what is missing from the class is variability. A fighter, by design, has the same number of potential actions - with varying caveats to those actions - throughout the lifetime of play and compared to other classes, the fighter has a smaller number of potential actions that can be taken. If you wanted to express this more exactly, I would say that the Fighter has a set of game choices at any event and this set of game choices does not grow through the lifetime of game, rather it is statically defined. Further, the fighter's set of game choices is the basic set of choices which is common to all classes throughout the game. All other classes have expanded sets of game choices which include the fighter's and some elements which the fighter cannot take without sacrificing its wholeness (That being the things which make a fighter a fighter and not, for example, a rogue or barbarian). What's missing, in my opinion, are choices and abilities unique to the fighter class - something you find in every other class in the game. Fighter specific feats are great, but they do not expand the fighter's choices in meaningful ways, usually. rather they specialize the fighter to be better in one particular aspect of the game. For example, a fighter specialized in Tripping is not "The fighter that can trip - something the rogue can't do" but rather "The fighter that can trip better then the rogue". I became convinced that what Fighters are lacking is what almost every other class in the game has which is "Spells" or meaningful Skill choices. While, at first, I was loathe to adapt the maneuver system from "Book of the Nine Swords", I decided that for purposes of saving my sanity, game balance, and keeping me from having to play test and second guess every decision, I would just use it. My plan, right now, is to just give the Fighter class the Maneuvers for a Warblade of the same level. I think this inclusion will go a decent way to making the Fighter a more interesting class - at least it will give the Fighter character more to do.
Ghenesh 02-01-07, 04:16 PM	The last thing I want is to turn class abilities into feats. And 14 bonus feats for a fighter? Thats going overboard. Well, those class abilities are not exactly going to break any game and would definitively gonna make the Fighter more appealing (at least worth taking more than 2 levels). Although i accept that making class features into feats are an issue when you see classes as a whole concept rather than a collection of features, cause this would affect the uniqueness of some classes. Mmm... the 14 bonus feats fighters is one of the oldest fighter fixes ever, and it's said to be underpowered too, heck, even if the fighter gain a bonus feat every single class level it wouldn't make much of a diference to the class. The issue with the fighter is that the class respond to the biggest concept of all classes of the game, the combatant, so putting in some static features is gonna end-up making the fighter a fixed concept (like barbarian, monk, swashbuckler, knight, etc) rather than the template class that it is, so unless there are specific bonuses or options (like more feats), i don't think it would be a good variant.
Tony Vargas 02-01-07, 04:22 PM	Post removed due to topic being moved from "What's a DM to Do?"
Arganis 02-01-07, 04:24 PM	I'm going to agree wholeheartedly with Downtym's observations. It is a crying shame that a Level 20 Fighter's most useful ability is Power Attack. Worse still, the fighter is forced over his lifetime to spend additional feat slots to supplement his Attack Bonus in order to preserve the viability of Power Attack.
Ghenesh 02-01-07, 05:04 PM	Much more sedate might be a +1 BAB capstone at 20th level (giving you the impossible 21 BAB just in time for epic, but only if you're pure fighter). Great feature! About the other proposals, i'm kinda sorry to say this (cause i respect Tony Vargas's opinion) but they are all overpowered. The 5/4 BAB is making the uber-charger more uber, the bonus on the feats by taking fighter levels are way off, i tried to do this but the work of balancing the bonuses and creating new features for those feats that are not bonuses is way too extensive, finally the arena-feats proposal is kinda like Seerow's combat styles feats, but i think is too much, imagine how hard would be for a DM to create a Fighter NPC of 16th level... simple is better.
Adrian_Crane 02-01-07, 05:06 PM	Just to put in my random 2 cents: Don't give them anything more at level 1 or 2. Those are the oft-dipped levels, and it's already good enough. 3-4 might stand to get minor boosts, and beyond 4, go nuts, because nobody dips the class for that long.
MagnaSecuris 02-01-07, 05:45 PM	Yes... more than 5 levels is no longer a dip.
ragoftag 02-01-07, 06:41 PM	Scalable feats, yielding more as the character levels up in class. Consider these as evasion 'scales' up for barbarians or rogues. Stage each bonus as other feat 'families' are, eg: Shifter feats. Basic idea is that by taking feat X, then rounding out its 'family', feat X gets boosted. Yes, I've broached this before, no, I have done diddly on it.:embarrass I use Weapon Groups from UA or PHB II, so Weapon Focus adds +1 to hit for the WG. Lets say that taking 3 WF feats allows the WF bonus to rise to ...+2? This allows the Ftr to boost his 'to hit'. Shifters get extra shifts and longer shifts as they get more Shifter feats. I posit a similar 'boost' for Ftrs. Or am I full of ....'it'?:plotting:
Tony Vargas 02-01-07, 07:05 PM	About the other proposals, i'm kinda sorry to say this (cause i respect Tony Vargas's opinion) but they are all overpowered.Well of course they are, I'm working on the assumption that the fighter is underpowered to the point of unplayability!
Kanosint 02-01-07, 09:28 PM	Hmmm, for fixing the dip, I'd say, make Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization the two Bonus Feats at First and Second level. At every other odd level, he'd gain an extra +1 to hit and +2 damage. Scalable, powerful, although less generalising... But most Fighters seem to go with one weapon anyways from my experience. That, or perhaps special 'Fighter Weapon Enhancements'? I dunno how to explain, but it'd be fun to try out... (Like a Fighter being able to make the Sword-Chucs ;3)
Ghenesh 02-02-07, 12:04 PM	Weapon Focus and Specialization sounds like a no-brainer feature to fix the fighter... until you realize that it's against the most basic feature of the fighter, building versatility. Actually i thought like that at first, and created some fixes based on this (giving the weapon feat tree as class features), then when i tried to re-fix the variant to keep the Fighter versatility (thus creating something like Weapon Aptitude) i realized that it was too complicated unless you make something absurd and overpowered like Weapon Aptitude. There's a fix posted in the classes forum that let's you change your weapons feats at the cost of one feat, that is a bad solution too. The only simple solution i grasp at this was making the change of your weapons feats based on fighter level. But this doesn't solve the issue that your fighter will become a weapon specialist no matter how you build it, and i think that's not good... not every fighter wants to be a weapon specialist. As i made other fixes i focused on other features, next i tried on feats, making them better only for the fighter... as Tony Vargas presented this has several balancing issues. It's not that they are balanced as they are, but the work on this is a lot more extensive than simply fixing the features of the fighter class, as much as nerfing the most broken spells (cause there are plenty). Now, i still want to fix the Fighter, not to match spellcasters... just to make the class appealing, and focused on 4 basic features: * Feats: More feats, why? building versatility, the more feats are used in a game, the more are needed to keep the fighter interesting. This was explained by Tony Vargas on other posts but basically says that to build an optimized fighter (as the pro-fighter mob claim is the proof of the fighter not being underpowered) you need to specialize and the feat selection narrows to a point were there's no selection, only "must have" feats. * Skill Points and Skill List: This is to give the fighter a better performance out of battle, Spot is a must have class skill, the rest is just fluff, and create a new skill to give the fighter a unique area of expertise: Knowledge (Combat and War). Not being static bonuses, the fighter class is a template and skills are an important deal in customization. * Save Bonus: The fighter desperately needs a little boost on saves, the problem is that nobody know what to increase, a thug should have more Fortitude than a regular combatant, a Fencer should have better reflexes and a Soldier should probably get a better Will save, so the boost should be just a little bonus on the player's choice. * Armor Class: This is an area of expertise that the fighter might find its niche, with the right feats a cleric can achieve the same AC than the Fighter, heck even a Barbarian can... so a little boost to the fighter's AC would make the class more appealing and specialized, besides it wouldn't interfere with the combatant template feel, dodge bonus is the more appropiate. With this in mind i created my third fix... although it hasn't been criticized by the other users, it fulfills my requirements completely.
ZiggZagg 02-02-07, 12:19 PM	I'm sorry, but this entire thread just did nothing but annoy me. What exactly needs fixed? The Fighter class is not made to be a class that stands alone on a hill and can take every opposition that comes at him. He is like very other class, in that he does what he was made to do and nothing more. His bonus feats are what make him the awesome melee/ranged character that he is. Fighters are important to groups because of their high hit points and usually high AC. His purpose is to deal damage. What more do you want him to do? Stop saying the Fighter class needs any kind of fixing. If you want him to do something different, like 2 or 3 books now have alternate abilities for him. Grab them up
Arganis 02-02-07, 12:54 PM	I'm sorry, but this entire thread just did nothing but annoy me. What exactly needs fixed? The Fighter class is not made to be a class that stands alone on a hill and can take every opposition that comes at him. He is like very other class, in that he does what he was made to do and nothing more. His bonus feats are what make him the awesome melee/ranged character that he is. Fighters are important to groups because of their high hit points and usually high AC. His purpose is to deal damage. What more do you want him to do? Stop saying the Fighter class needs any kind of fixing. If you want him to do something different, like 2 or 3 books now have alternate abilities for him. Grab them up If you do not believe the fighter needs fixing, you have no value here. Whether or not the fighter needs fixing is off topic. Go away. You are not welcome in this thread unless you wish to discuss the matter at hand.
nightwing 02-02-07, 01:24 PM	I'm considering getting rid of the barbarian class altogether, and giving fighters the rage ability starting at 3rd level instead of 1st and d12 hit dice. [edit] and remove the level one bonus feat. The barbarian's fast movement and trap sense abilities will be given to rangers. I'm also considering getting rid of the monk class entirely and give the monk's fast movement and falling abilities to rogues and the monk's "mind, body, and spirit" abilities to paladins.
High Octane 02-02-07, 01:52 PM	If you do not believe the fighter needs fixing, you have no value here. Whether or not the fighter needs fixing is off topic. Go away. You are not welcome in this thread unless you wish to discuss the matter at hand. So unless the answer is "Yes the fighter needs fixing" his opinion should remain silent?
ZiggZagg 02-02-07, 02:03 PM	My opinion is completely on topic, and in any case, I don't beleive you have the authority to tell me where and when I can place my opinion. The Fighter does not need to be fixed, just the tactics of those who play them. Two players in my group are playing them, and they are destroying everything I (the DM) is throwing at them, thanks to the help of the rest of the group. This is not a game to weigh how powerful one class is vs another. It is a game in which you weigh the how well a certain class can contribute to the group. Fighters have earned their place in the "typical group", and with good reason.
Arganis 02-02-07, 02:24 PM	Disclaimer: I really don't want to get into a debate about weather or not the fighter sucks, or if otimization and role playing are or are not mutally exclusive. If you really, really want to get into that, please start your own thread. thankx. You could have saved yourself the trouble of reading this thread if you had taken the OP to heart. So unless the answer is "Yes the fighter needs fixing" his opinion should remain silent? No, his opinion should be expressed elsewhere. My opinion is completely on topic, and in any case, I don't beleive you have the authority to tell me where and when I can place my opinion. No, your opinion is detrimental to the conversation at hand. Everyone in this thread has agreed implicitly to discuss augmenting the fighter. And yet even though no one here is interested in your opinion due to the common assumption that we are not addressing whether or not the fighter needs fixing, you had to drop it by anyway. This is why the internet is full of noise. Unfortunately the one thing you are right about is that I am not a mod, so I do not have the authority to remove you from this thread forcefully. Nor am I your parents, so I do not have the authority to force you to respect your peers. But seeing as you want to be %100 entitled to express your own opinion even when it is unwelcome and unecessary, I will reciprocate with my own opinion: Contribute or go away.
High Octane 02-02-07, 02:29 PM	Contribute or go away. This thread is about how the fighter should be fixed. His opinion is that the fixes should be minimal since the class is already fine as is.
Arganis 02-02-07, 02:31 PM	This thread is about how the fighter should be fixed. His opinion is that the fixes should be minimal since the class is already fine as is. Enjoy your pedantic dance.
ZiggZagg 02-02-07, 02:34 PM	Gee. Somebody heard what I said. It isn't that hard if you just think about what I said. Everyone is always so worried about how the Fighter can be better built to stand alone. That is not what they are for. That is not what any class is for. All classes are built with "what can this contribute to a party" in mind. All classes could use "fixing" if you are trying to make them do what you seem to want the Fighter to be able to do.
Archangel62 02-02-07, 02:36 PM	My view on it more and more has been that perhaps the way to fix the fighter might be to better define it. Many of these fixes tend to pin it into one or two roles, what if we instead did a fix that in their dead levels offerred them some sort of advanced combat techniques. Things similar to trip and disarm, or the equivalent of the warblades weapon aptitude (first the hammer, then the greatsword....) The fighter, at least in my opinion, is supposed to be the master of techniques. The fighter is supposed to be a master of battle maneuvers and tricks, but with how the mechanics are designed they suck horribly if they don't specialize in something and become obsolete in it by a certain level. Offer the figher built in weapon tricks, advanced maneuvers, maybe some tactical feats that you could customize to fighter only. Another idea in a similar vein is that we use something similar from iron heroes scalable feats, the fighter being able to get the benefits of the base feat as well as a little bonus, and this bonus or extra benefit increases with the fighters level. So maybe cleave starts giving bonuses to hit on the cleave, great cleave turns into supreme cleave and then into Master Cleave or something like that.
Arganis 02-02-07, 02:40 PM	Gee. Somebody heard what I said. It isn't that hard if you just think about what I said. Everyone is always so worried about how the Fighter can be better built to stand alone. That is not what they are for. That is not what any class is for. All classes are built with "what can this contribute to a party" in mind. All classes could use "fixing" if you are trying to make them do what you seem to want the Fighter to be able to do. You seem to assume that I disagree with you. Though I often speculate about how to change the fighter, and have been doing so in this thread, I agree with you %99 for exactly the reasons you state. Your arguments are well-reasoned and stated. They are not stupid or silly, they are just out of place. But that is beside the point. That's not what we're talking about here. Now go away or speculate with the rest of us.
Ghenesh 02-02-07, 02:42 PM	Please remain civil, although ZiggZagg's opinion is completely offtopic and, as stated in the OP's proposal, unwanted, he has the right to post his/her point of view in the matter as anyone has the right to ignore such comments. A better solution is to ignore what's not of your liking, and a great motto for posting also. By the way, ZiggZagg's opinion wasn't that the fighter class need only little variations, but no fixing at all and all our efforts on doing so are an annoyance to him/her. Nightwing, i have also been tempted to merge all the combatant classes (Barbarian, Ranger, Monk, Swashbuckler, etc) into one Fighter. But converting all of their class features into feats was really too much... the problem wasn't the design, but the balance issues. Finally decided to leave the classes as they are. Archangel62, i have read your proposals on fixing the fighter for a while now, and respect your opinions on the matter, but i think that adding mechanics that do not appear in the core books (like stances, scaling feats, tactical feats, etc) is not the way to go... just for the sake of simplicity i wouldn't add a non-core solution to a core class.
Arganis 02-02-07, 02:53 PM	By the way, ZiggZagg's opinion wasn't that the fighter class need only little variations, but no fixing at all and all our efforts on doing so are an annoyance to him/her. Exactly. I realize that the temptation exists on the Internet to interject your opinion everywhere and generally add noise to the signal, but common courtesy dictates that if a group of people are discussing something you disagree with, that you do not come trolling. Off topic posts are against the code of conduct. although ZiggZagg's opinion is completely offtopic and, as stated in the OP's proposal, unwanted, he has the right to post his/her point of view in the matter as anyone has the right to ignore such comments. The "right to ignore" is hogwash both in actual free-speech arguments and here. Even if it did exist, I choose to instead be baited into an off-topic discussion about off-topic discussions. Weeee! After all, it's my right to express any opinion I want anywhere! Archangel62, i have read your proposals on fixing the fighter for a while now, and respect your opinions on the matter, but i think that adding mechanics that do not appear in the core books (like stances, scaling feats, tactical feats, etc) is not the way to go... just for the sake of simplicity i wouldn't add a non-core solution to a core class. Speaking of the topic, I can sign on with this statement in a heartbeat. I would much prefer to see a fix for the fighter that utilized the existing core mechanics.
Ghenesh 02-02-07, 02:57 PM	I would much prefer to see a fix for the fighter that utilized the existing core mechanics. Didn't like mine? :(
Schmendrick 02-02-07, 03:31 PM	Enjoy your pedantic dance. Oh, sweet irony... --- I tend to think that the Fighter changes should be kept to a minimum, as well. (See my sig.) There's a lot to be said for the argument that a D&D party acts as a team, not as a set of do-it-all supermen. That's a good part of what makes it fun -- of course, if you're looking for a different play experience, feel free to change it. That's what RPGs are for, after all. The main problem I have with the fighter is dead levels. They annoy me in any class, but fighters more than any, because the fighter's class abilities (feats) are pretty juicy; the dead levels are all the more glaring when your "live" levels are Good Stuff. Dead levels also encourage dipping (duck out before the first, or second, or whatever dead level -- like 3rd or 5th for Fighter.) The problem I have with most fighter fixes is that they tend make one of two "mistakes" (in my eyes): they either destroy what I see as the elegance of the fighter (a simple, extremely flexible/generic bonus feat progression), or they incorrectly address the dead level issue by using the now-classic "feat at every level except those divisible by three" error. I appreciate the intent, but a class should, IMHO, be self-contained. Class abilities should be based around the class, not around "external" circumstances like character level. Besides, the 2/3feat fighter suffers from the same dip problems, if not moreso: a "dip" character is by definition multiclassed, and multiclassing is almost certain to break the feat pattern matchup.
Arganis 02-02-07, 03:37 PM	Oh, sweet irony... Yes, there was a lot of irony in what I just did, and one instance of meta-irony. Fortunately that doesn't make me less right. Didn't like mine? My thought on your particular suggestion is that I would prefer that fighters have more feat chains, rather than deeper feat chains.
Ghenesh 02-02-07, 04:23 PM	I also do like the "Combat Styles / Arena" feats (take more than one feat tree but use only one at a time), but that kind of solutions so far (Seerow's fix comes to mind) are very complicated and overpowered, it makes the work of building a fighter more complex than choosing spells for a wizard. One very simple idea that would make the Fighter not a dip class and relate to this solution is to give the class one feat every single class level... BUT 2 diferent Combat Styles / Arenas, one in the Odd levels and another in the Even levels, so you build one feat tree with the feats gained in the Odd levels, and another with the feats gained in the Even levels, of course this feats cannot be used to fulfill requirements of the other style / arena (but they do work for the feats gained on HD advancement), and to change form one " stance / style / arena" to the other you require a standard or move action.
Schmendrick 02-02-07, 04:27 PM	Yes, there was a lot of irony in what I just did, and one instance of meta-irony. Fortunately that doesn't make me less right. Nor does it make you more correct. Fortunately. :p Seriously though, I think that a lot of people who see the Fighter as "not nearly as underpowered as others believe it to be" are good and right to post their views in Fighter fixes. To keep them sane, if nothing else. IMO, none of the classes should be able to completely dominate "most" scenarios (specific instances are ok; spotlight fame has always been a staple of dramatic storytelling). They should each have their niche, and be pretty darn good about it. Barbarians should be about wilderness survival and "smash it to bits." They're not necessarily unintelligent brutes (that's just half-orcs ;) ), but those are the key elements. Rangers are about wilderness stealth and "fight by being really good with your weapons" Fighters are about "be an absolute master of weaponry and/or combat techniques." Fighters are the only of the main melee classes with dead levels. (Well, there's paladins, but that's a different story; they're kind of weird to begin with, and they do at least get scaling abilities.)
Merestil Haye 02-02-07, 04:49 PM	The thought I had was to change what I considered to be the most overcosted feats in the game - Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon specialisation. GWF now gives the character +1 to attack rolls with the Focussed weapon per four fighter levels the character has, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. This is an unnamed bonus and therefore stacks with all other bonuses (except unnamed bonuses from other feats named Greater Weapon Focus). The character can also overcome DR X/Magic with their blows. GWS now gives a 2 + 1/level bonus to weapon attack rolls with the specialised weapon. to a maximum of +7 at 20th level. The character also chooses one component of his alignment and attacks with these weapons strike as if he were an outsider with the relevant alignment subtype. (The intention of the latter is to allow the character to overcome DR / the selected alignment; thus a CG fighter who chose Chaotic would be able to overcome DR X/Chaos. If my wording is not 100% correct yet, it will be amended to bring it in line.) Epic WF and WS will simply lift the cap of 20th level effects, and EWS will also allow the character to overcome DR/Epic.
ZombieDragon 02-02-07, 05:05 PM	My idea was to keep it as basic, and like the original as possible. Give it a little spice. As my sister pointed out to me, "That rocks! You can take two 0 Bab dips for flavor and still end up at +20 bab at 20th" I didn't see it that way when I wrote it down but it does add a nice dynamic.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-02-07, 05:17 PM	I really like the make class abilities into feats and then get rid of the classes idea. the only thing is that I like the flavor of both rangers and barbarians, and don't really want to get rid of that. But a feat like: Insightful strike: <insert appropriate flavor text> Prerequisite: Base attack +3, Weapon finesse, Intelligence 13+, and fighter level third. Benefit: You ad your intelligence bonus to melee weapon damage roles. would be cool. Actually if i were to come up with enough of those it may just do the trick. Upping the skills/level and adding abunch would also go along way as well. Monk saves wouldn't hurt either. About the AC bonuses, i was thinking maybe +1 per five levels starting at level 5. What I'm doing right now is to give the fighter a bonus fighter feat at every level. And starting at level 1 they gain weapon focus for free. then at level 5 they gain WS in the choosen weapon for weapon focus, and at 10th they gain improved crit in that weapon. At 15th they gain weapon mastery, and at 20th weapon supermancy. What'd yaa think?
Ghenesh 02-02-07, 05:39 PM	Not gonna coment on variants based on giving the weapon spec feat tree as class features... i think i have done that many times in the last few days... and in this thread. But taking into a more practical state the idea of the two Combat Styles (borrowing some ideas from Seerow's fix): Level Special 1st 1st Combat Style Bonus Feat 2nd 2nd Combat Style Bonus Feat, Fighting Style 3rd 1st Combat Style Bonus Feat 4th 2nd Combat Style Bonus Feat 5th 1st Combat Style Bonus Feat 6th 2nd Combat Style Bonus Feat 7th 1st Combat Style Bonus Feat 8th 2nd Combat Style Bonus Feat, Improved Fighting Style 9th 1st Combat Style Bonus Feat 10th 2nd Combat Style Bonus Feat 11t 1st Combat Style Bonus Feat 12th 2nd Combat Style Bonus Feat 13th 1st Combat Style Bonus Feat 14th 2nd Combat Style Bonus Feat, Greater Fighting Style 15th 1st Combat Style Bonus Feat 16th 2nd Combat Style Bonus Feat 17th 1st Combat Style Bonus Feat 18th 2nd Combat Style Bonus Feat 19th 1st Combat Style Bonus Feat 20th 2nd Combat Style Bonus Feat, Supreme Fighting Style The idea is that the Fighter has two combat styles, as it's been seen in other fixes with this feature the two styles are independant of each other, a feat taken in one style cannot be used as a prerequisite for taking a feat in the other style, and the feats used to meet the prerequisites of the feats provided by Hit Die advancement must belong to the same Combat Style because the fighter is not considered to have them while in the other Combat Style. The most important part here is that you cannot use the fighter feats that belong to one style when you're set for the other. The class features are based on this mechanic: Fighting Style (ex): At 2nd level the fighter can change her fighting style as a standard action, this change is permanent until the fighter use this feature again. Improved Fighting Style (ex): At 8th level the fighter can change her fighting style as a move action, this change is permanent until the fighter use this feature again. Greater Fighting Style (ex): At 14th level the fighter can change her fighting style as a swift action, this change is permanent until the fighter use this feature again. Supreme Fighting Style (ex): At 20th level the fighter is considered to have reached the perfection in combat techniques, she's always considered to be set on both styles and all feats taken by the fighter are considered to belong to both styles. The name of the features are just what came to my mind in this moment so if you have better ideas for them, and better wording to explain the features, i will be glad to read them.
Solik 02-02-07, 05:44 PM	Bump the HD to 12, SP to 4, add a few skills to their list at your leisure, give them the Warblade's ability to refocus weapon-specific feats (at, say, level 7), and grant them a reflavored Divine Grace at level 13. Add bonus feats at levels 17 and 19. Let them start taking "Epic" fighter feats at level 16. Make SURE you support PHBII retraining!
Tony Vargas 02-02-07, 05:47 PM	Should 'changing a fighting style' really be an action? I mean, say you're an 11th level fighter. You get three attacks, +11/+6/+1. You could easily strike one foe with a weapon, killing him, throw that weapon (it could be a throwing axe, trident, or any weapon with the Throwing quality) at another foe, then take a 5' step up to a third and attempt to Trip him or start a grapple. That'd be Melee, ranged, & unarmed - the three I considered. Or would there be even more styles (S&B, THF, TWF, etc)? Even if there were, a character with quickdraw could end up using several. And why would that be a problem - if it's OK for one fighter to grapple really well and to be a great archer, is it really that bad for him to do both in the same round on the rare occassion it comes up?
Arganis 02-02-07, 06:07 PM	Nor does it make you more correct. Fortunately. :p You're right, this is fortunate. If I were to be more than completely right, something might explode.
Ghenesh 02-02-07, 06:09 PM	And why would that be a problem - if it's OK for one fighter to grapple really well and to be a great archer, is it really that bad for him to do both in the same round on the rare occassion it comes up? Yes, that would be brutal, excelent and the exact way a fighter should be as i see them, but that would still make the fighter a dip class, the main objectives of my fixes are: 1.- Keep the elegant and simple design of the original class (although it's hard while dealing with the two styles stuff). 2.- Make the fighter class one to be wanted to be taken till 20th level... and that's where the 4 special class features come into play, at second level it takes a standard action to change from one Style/FeatTree to the other, that keeps the fighter pretty much as it is right now, with the exception that you have the "option" to change your feats at the cost of a valuable action, at 8th level you can make the same but with a move action, now you can do some good stuff, this lead us to the great ability at 14th level, change style as a swift action... this is when the fighter can make the great things you name. As a final ability at 20th level the combat styles diferences dissapear and the fighter becomes a class with 20 feats that can do awesome stuff. 3.- Keep the template feel of the class, so i won't force the fighter into some sort of "career" or "martial specialization", just make the diference in the construction through the levels with the independance of the Combat Styles. I think this decrease the "dipability" of the class a lot. Although is kind of a cheap trick to use it this way but yeah, i used this limitation to keep the player onto the class and prevent the 2 level dipping usage of the class... now is a 1 level dip XD.
Tony Vargas 02-02-07, 06:25 PM	OK, I see it, since you have the styles kicking in at 2nd, there could be an issue with using the fighter to pick up preqs at a feat-per-level, if the preqs were all in two styles, just for instance.
Ghenesh 02-02-07, 06:33 PM	OK, I see it. I avoided that problem by delaying the second style until 5th, and a third at 13th - thereby increasing the value of the latter level bonus feats - so it wasn't an issue. Can you post your fix or matbe a table with the features to see the feat progression?
ShadowDragon8685 02-02-07, 06:43 PM	The easiest way, IMO, to fix a fighter is to take your third level as Swordsage. You lose some HP temporarily, but therafter 1/2 your Fighter levels (and your actual Swordsage level) stack to determine what level of a Martial Adept you can use Manouvers and Stances as. Or you could just make the Fighter do that by default.
Ghenesh 02-02-07, 06:46 PM	So... the best way to fix the fighter is to multiclass.
Arganis 02-02-07, 07:26 PM	So... the best way to fix the fighter is to multiclass. :bigeyes: God I hope not!
Tony Vargas 02-02-07, 07:57 PM	Post removed due to topic being moved from "What's a DM to Do?"
Ghenesh 02-02-07, 08:18 PM	:confused: It may be just me but i find it quite complicated, so i re-read it and finally got it... but (as usual) i have some concers: - What triggers the arena? i mean in wich moment the fighter can switch the use from one arena to the other. - Why the second arena starts at 5th level and not 7th? - Shouldn't there be more arenas? Melee, Ranged and Unarmed doesn't quite grasp all the fighter feats, maybe using some of the concepts that Szatany used in his fantastic feat fix as arenas: Power: e.g. Power Attack. Agility: e.g. Dodge. Ranged: e.g. Point Blank Shot. Cavalry: e.g. Mounted Combat. Tactician: e.g. Combat Reflexes. Unarmed: e.g. Improved Unarmed Strike. Maybe i didn't understand your fix... but that's only because of my lacking english :) .
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-02-07, 08:40 PM	The easiest way, IMO, to fix a fighter is to take your third level as Swordsage. You lose some HP temporarily, but therafter 1/2 your Fighter levels (and your actual Swordsage level) stack to determine what level of a Martial Adept you can use Manouvers and Stances as. Or you could just make the Fighter do that by default. Thats kinda my point and the reason for this thread:P. Also I'm not sold on this manuevers and stances item of wizards. I"m waiting t see if they orphan it like so many other goos thoughts. (spell fire, magic in carnim, true name magic, etc.)
Tony Vargas 02-02-07, 09:01 PM	Post removed due to topic being moved from "What's a DM to Do?"
GospelofRob 02-02-07, 09:45 PM	Actually, I think the shifter technique might end well. Its relativily simple, and can help out alot. True Vitality (Fighter Feat, Endure) Pre. Req.: 15 Con, Fighter lvl 4, Endurance, (Diehard?) Benfit: When combat starts, you gain 1 hitpoint per fighter level in temporary hitpoints. These temporary hitpoints last 1 full round. Special: For every Endure feat you have, you gain 1 additional hitpoint per fighter level. For every 2 Endure fears you have, they last for 1 additional full round. Learher Skinned (Fighter Feat, Endure) Pre. Req.: 15 Con, Fighter lvl 4, Endurance, (maybe one more?) Benfit: When combat starts, your skin naturally toughness. You can 1 bonus natural armor class. This effect lasts 1 full round. Special: For every 4 (3?) Endure feats you have, you gain 1 additional bonus natural AC. For every 2 Endure fears you have, this lasts for 1 additional full round. Ironheart (Fighter Feat, Endure) Pre. Req.: 15 Con, Fighter lvl 4, Endurance, (str 13?) Benfit: When Combat starts you gain DR 2/magic. This effect lasts 1 full round. Special: For every 2 Endure feats you have, you gain an additional DR 2/magic. For every 2 Endure fears you have, this lasts for 1 additional full round. Just a begining. Ill be working on more
lastknightleft 02-02-07, 10:44 PM	Two players in my group are playing them, and they are destroying everything I (the DM) is throwing at them :heehee , Everything I is throwing at them:dancin:
darth_borehd 02-02-07, 11:10 PM	I think the only thing the fighter needs is some more class skills. Even at only 2+INT, some fighters run out of class skills to spend points on. Fighters should have Heal for patching up sword wounds, removing arrows, etc, Bluff for doing feints and taunting opponents, and Knowledge (tactics) to figure out what opponents might do and devising ways to counter them.
lastknightleft 02-02-07, 11:30 PM	, and Knowledge (tactics) to figure out what opponents might do and devising ways to counter them. I think sense motive is more realistic than knowledge tactics, unless your talking about large scale fighting in which case someone already made a fighter only knowledge (war and something or other)
lastknightleft 02-02-07, 11:44 PM	I do agree that a fighter needs a few more skills my :twocents: is for sense motive, knowledge (nobility and royalty), perform (weapon drill) from CW, tumble, spot, and honestly I think 4+ int mod since lots of fighters consider Int a dump stat, so even with a - mod you should get at least 2 skill points and if you play a fighter with more int, well hey, way to break archtypes. besides, the classes that have 2skill points means that they are the ones who focus on nothing else but what they do and they do that one thing and one thing only, I just don't believe a fighter should be combat to the exclusion of basic survival skills. I know btw that weapon drill isn't core, but it's pretty straightforward and in no way a breaking skill
Aiden_Bautista 02-03-07, 12:14 AM	I was actually working on this earlier. The saves and BAB stay the same, as well as skills and HD. However I added Spot, Listen, and Bluff to the skill list. Spot and Listen: Because the typical city guard generally a fighter or warrior. You want to put the protection of your city in the hands of someone who can't see or hear? Thought not. Bluf: Fighters may choose Improved Feint as a Bonus Feat... But no Bluff? I haven't gotten very far but here it is: 1:Bonus Feat 2:Bonus Feat 3:Special Ability 4:Bonus Feat 5:Bonus Feat 6:Special Ability 7:Bonus Feat 8:Bonus Feat 9:Special Ability 10:Bonus Feat 11:Bonus Feat 12:Special Ability 13:Bonus Feat 14:Bonus Feat 15:Special Ability 16:Bonus Feat 17:Bonus Feat 18:Special Ability 19:Bonus Feat 20:Bonus Feat I saw someone else change the Bonus Feat to look like this, and I liked it. The special abilities: I only have two so far... Weapon Prowess: A Fighter may selecet a weapon in which he has Weapon Focus with. When dealing damage with said weapon, he deals an extra 1d6 of damage due to his superior ability and training. This ability may be taken more than once. It's effects stack. ((Before you begin shouting UNBALANCED, look at the Rogue. Even if the Fighter takes this ability at every available level, he only has 6d6 added in this way. A rogue will have 10d6 of SA by 20th level.)) Greater Combat Ability: You may select this ability for one of the following: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Trip, Improved Feint, Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder, Improved Overrun. You gain +2 when using the specified ability. This ability may be taken more than once. It's effects stack. Example: Aiden has the feats Improved Grapple and Improved Trip. At third level, he takes the ability, Greater Grapple, and now recieves a +2 bonus on any grapple attempts, including opposed grapple checks. At sixth level, Aiden gains the ability again and now recieves a +4 bonus on grapple checks. At ninth level, Aiden decides to take Greater Trip. He now has a +2 bonus on trip attempts. He still has the +4 bonus on grapple. ((If I forgot any "Combat Abilities", let me know.)) Sorry for any confusion. P.E.A.C.H.?
ZombieDragon 02-03-07, 12:37 AM	I posted this one my thread but I post it here too. My dad and sister wiped this up after listening to me talk about mine. Bab F R W Special 1 + 1 2 1 0 My weapon, One fighter one weapon + 1 / + 0 2 + 2 3 1 0 Heightened retort + 1 3 + 3 3 2 1 Fighter feat 4 + 4 4 2 1 One fighter one weapon +1 / + 1 5 + 5 4 3 1 Fighter feat 6 + 6 / 1 5 3 2 Heightened retort +2 7 + 7 / 2 5 3 2 Fighter feat One fighter one weapon + 1 / + 2 8 + 8 / 3 6 4 2 Sway the Battle (1d12 1/day) 9 + 9 / 4 6 4 3 Fighter feat 10 + 10 / 5 7 5 3 One fighter one weapon + 2 / + 2 , Heightened retort + 3 11 + 11 / 6 / 1 7 5 3 Fighter feat 12 + 12 / 7 / 2 8 6 4 Sway the battle (1d12 2/day) 13 + 13 / 8 / 3 8 6 4 Fighter feat One fighter one weapon + 2 / + 3 14 + 14 / 9 / 4 9 6 4 Heightened retort + 4 15 + 15 / 10 / 5 9 7 5 Fighter feat 16 + 16 / 11 / 6 / 1 10 7 5 One fighter one weapon + 2 / + 4 , Sway the battle (2d12 2/day) 17 + 17 / 12 / 7 / 2 10 8 5 Fighter feat 18 + 18 / 13 / 8 / 3 11 8 6 Heightened retort +5 19 + 19 / 14 / 9 / 4 11 9 6 Fighter feat One fighter one weapon + 3 / + 4 20 + 20 / 15 / 10 / 5 12 9 6 Sway the battle (2d12 3/day) Skill points 4 + Int bonus (x4 first) Skill set : Balance , Climb , Craft , Escape Artist , Gather Information , Handle animal , Heal , Intimidate , Jump , Listen , Ride , Search , Sense Motive , Spot , Tumble , Use Rope My weapon : A fighter chooses their signature weapon at first level. This is not the only weapon they use, but is their favorite. One fighter one weapon : The fighter favorite weapon (my weapon) improves over time and use. The first number is a bonus to hit and the second number is a bonus to damage ( + X to hit / + Y to damage ). This ability replaces weapon focus(1), greater focus(10), weapon specialization(7), and greater specialization(16). Heightened retort : the fighter gets better at taking the battle to the enemy. This is a bonus to initiative. Sway the Battle : An extraordinary ability to end a conflict in one round. This bonus is to damage for the round. Discuss here or http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=783400 . I'll try to pop back and forth
Ghenesh 02-03-07, 07:22 AM	Tony Vargas, now i understand the arena ability, and although i don't like the vagueness on the "trigger" to each Arena feat tree i do like the whole concept of diferent Combat Styles, but let me say this... is way too much, i know it only kicks in at higher levels but the number of feats the fighter is getting this way is frankly frightening (28 i believe), my limit for a fighter fix is 20... or features with power equivalent to 20 feats. GospelofRob, maybe you were to post in Szatany's thread about a new feat system for the fighter. darth_borehd and lastknightleft, i concur with the need for more skill points for the Fighter (i actually house-ruled so in my game), 4 + Int modifier is no game breaking at all, and an obvious increase to the skill list, i added Spot (fighting is a very visual activity), Knowledge (Combat and War) as a new exclusive fighter skill and Survival to give the fighter the foot-soldier feeling (and deal with tracking in a druid&ranger-less party). Aiden Bautista, i really like the simplicity and elegance of your fix, but i think that you are already giving the fighter 3 more bonus feats, so the "Special Abilities" shouldn't be as good as feats, maybe changing the bonus of weapon prowess to +1 to damage and Greater Combat Ability to +1 to a single check (think how overpowered would be a tripper with an extra +12 to trip!), maybe adding new features like "Combat Resistance" adding a +1 bonus to a saving throw and "Combat Awareness" adding a +1 dodge bonus to AC. The problem i see with this feature is its stackability, the way it is now it's certainly abusable. Zombie Dragon, i see there's a lot of work in your fighter but you're breaking the number 1 rule when dealing with a fighter, you're taking away the building options: it has less bonus feats than the core fighter. And why does he have all medium saves, why don't you keep the saves as they are but give the fighter elegible bonuses as class features. "One fighter one weapon" is too much, the +3 unnamed bonus to hit i mean. "Heightened Retort" and "Sway the Battle" are good. BTW the names of the features are great.
Arganis 02-03-07, 10:31 AM	At their core, most of the proposed abilities have boiled down to bonuses to Attack and AC. I do not believe that fighters need these abilities as they have not been shown to suffer there. We shouldn't be talking about giving fighters too much extra punch in their already overspecialized arena. They excel profusely here without help. What we need are interesting choices.
ZombieDragon 02-03-07, 12:09 PM	Zombie Dragon, i see there's a lot of work in your fighter but you're breaking the number 1 rule when dealing with a fighter, you're taking away the building options: it has less bonus feats than the core fighter. And why does he have all medium saves, why don't you keep the saves as they are but give the fighter eligible bonuses as class features. "One fighter one weapon" is too much, the +3 unnamed bonus to hit i mean. "Heightened Retort" and "Sway the Battle" are good. BTW the names of the features are great. I changed their idea. They wanted Good fort, average reflexes, and poor will. I should probably change that back to their ideal. I talked to my dad (main writer of this build) and he states that One fighter one weapon is meant to be a virtual replacement of weapon focus and specialization and greater focus and spec. .Meaning you can't take those feat for this weapon but that one fighter one weapon counts as those feats virtually. It loses 2 feats but gain 4 virtual feats that scale albeit a little slower. Also at low levels it is locked in and not a free feat grab class.
MagnaSecuris 02-03-07, 04:19 PM	Weapon Prowess: A Fighter may selecet a weapon in which he has Weapon Focus with. When dealing damage with said weapon, he deals an extra 1d6 of damage due to his superior ability and training. This ability may be taken more than once. It's effects stack. ((Before you begin shouting UNBALANCED, look at the Rogue. Even if the Fighter takes this ability at every available level, he only has 6d6 added in this way. A rogue will have 10d6 of SA by 20th level.)) Very good. This is something I would definately make available to fighters. Greater Combat Ability: You may select this ability for one of the following: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Trip, Improved Feint, Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder, Improved Overrun. You gain +2 when using the specified ability. This ability may be taken more than once. It's effects stack. ((If I forgot any "Combat Abilities", let me know.)) Sorry for any confusion. P.E.A.C.H.? Weak. Nobody would ever take this over Weapon Prowess. Maybe a +3 to the check (why does everybody always use even numbers) would work. Since you already need the feat to get the benefits, you're spending two class abilities to get a small bonus. The bonus to the check should be 1/2 HD (rounded down) or something (1/3 maybe). My own suggestions: Mettle: We all know how mettle works, give it a requirement of +6 Fort save (unless you're going with medium saves, then lower it so it shows up around 7th level). Slippery Mind: This ability represents the Fighter’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a fighter with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw. You'd probably want to make a +3 Will requirement. Precise Control: The fighter can give up 2d6 of Weapon Prowess damage to do 1d4 Dex damage. A target must be susceptable to precision damage, and cannot be attacked with this ability again until it has healed at least one point of the Dex damage. For every additional d6 he gives up beyond the first two, he may add +1 to the ability damage.
ragoftag 02-03-07, 08:31 PM	Actually, I think the shifter technique might end well. Its relativily simple, and can help out alot. True Vitality (Fighter Feat, Endure) Pre. Req.: 15 Con, Fighter lvl 4, Endurance, (Diehard?) Benfit: When combat starts, you gain 1 hitpoint per fighter level in temporary hitpoints. These temporary hitpoints last 1 full round. Special: For every Endure feat you have, you gain 1 additional hitpoint per fighter level. For every 2 Endure fears you have, they last for 1 additional full round. Learher Skinned (Fighter Feat, Endure) Pre. Req.: 15 Con, Fighter lvl 4, Endurance, (maybe one more?) Benfit: When combat starts, your skin naturally toughness. You can 1 bonus natural armor class. This effect lasts 1 full round. Special: For every 4 (3?) Endure feats you have, you gain 1 additional bonus natural AC. For every 2 Endure fears you have, this lasts for 1 additional full round. Ironheart (Fighter Feat, Endure) Pre. Req.: 15 Con, Fighter lvl 4, Endurance, (str 13?) Benfit: When Combat starts you gain DR 2/magic. This effect lasts 1 full round. Special: For every 2 Endure feats you have, you gain an additional DR 2/magic. For every 2 Endure fears you have, this lasts for 1 additional full round. Just a begining. Ill be working on more GospelofRob Default Re: "Fixing the fighter" Actually, I think the shifter technique might end well. Its relativily simple, and can help out alot. True Vitality (Fighter Feat, Endure) Pre. Req.: 15 Con, Fighter lvl 4, Endurance, (Diehard?) Benfit: When combat starts, you gain 1 hitpoint per fighter level in temporary hitpoints. These temporary hitpoints last 1 full round. Special: For every Endure feat you have, you gain 1 additional hitpoint per fighter level. For every 2 Endure fears you have, they last for 1 additional full round. Learher Skinned (Fighter Feat, Endure) Pre. Req.: 15 Con, Fighter lvl 4, Endurance, (maybe one more?) Benfit: When combat starts, your skin naturally toughness. You can 1 bonus natural armor class. This effect lasts 1 full round. Special: For every 4 (3?) Endure feats you have, you gain 1 additional bonus natural AC. For every 2 Endure fears you have, this lasts for 1 additional full round. Ironheart (Fighter Feat, Endure) Pre. Req.: 15 Con, Fighter lvl 4, Endurance, (str 13?) Benfit: When Combat starts you gain DR 2/magic. This effect lasts 1 full round. Special: For every 2 Endure feats you have, you gain an additional DR 2/magic. For every 2 Endure fears you have, this lasts for 1 additional full round. Just a begining. Ill be working on more Great! If I get your intent, you would have Endure for actual taking of damage, with other families possible: Dodge/Evasion, Shieldwork, Weapon skill with X, Blind Fight, etc.
itwasntme 02-03-07, 08:40 PM	The Fighter is only a class thats harder to play then most other class's Its still playable just you have to think ALL Class's are playable you just have to think The Fighter is just one of thouse class's later on if you cant figure out how to make the fighter a good character in the party then dount call your self an expert D&D Player i think fighters are good once you figured out how to use them ...
Leo 02-03-07, 09:19 PM	The Fighter is only a class thats harder to play then most other class's Its still playable just you have to think ALL Class's are playable you just have to think The Fighter is just one of thouse class's later on if you cant figure out how to make the fighter a good character in the party then dount call your self an expert D&D Player i think fighters are good once you figured out how to use them ... Agreed. But the fallaccy man and his cohorts have created the false idea that the fighter is the worst class of all. Even wizos themselves told them fighter is allright and look at the result:antifighter threads popping everywhere. The fighter rewards a completely diferent style of play than casters and "blast things out of the way all day long". It rewards clever use of equipment and fight for the long term instead of going nova. Just beacause some peple don't like it doesn't mean it is weak. Heck, in worst scenario, it is the feat class. Need feats? No prob, just grab some levels of fighter. What is the problem with that?
agletam 02-03-07, 09:40 PM	bonus feats are enough to make a fighter special... if you use them right and say have a human who gets extra feats too you can have the most unique character in the world without changing anything from the core rules.... if you want something better try mixxing a ranger's skills with the fighters bonus's and bonus feats.. that should be more than sufficient to make all of your players fight over who gets to be the fighter
interpretivechaos 02-03-07, 09:43 PM	I have a really simple fix that I like. Aptitude: Every 3 levels (lvls 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) A fighter get a cumulative +1 on trip, grapple, Bull Rush, disarm, feints, and rolls to confirm criticals. The bonus increases to a cumulative +2 at levels 12, 15, 18. Discipline: Every 5 levels (Lvls 5, 10, 15, 20) Fighters get a cumulative +1 on initiative checks, will saving throws and reflex saving throws. Versatility: Every Six levels (6, 12, 18), The fighter may apply weapon specific feats to another weapon. Then I'd make more slobber inducingly good fighter feats, so the fighter never feels like he has too many feats, and all the other martial classes are staring longingly at the feats they don't have room to take.
agletam 02-03-07, 10:30 PM	oh yeah and if you think the fighter needs fixed that much don't play one... that's right there are tons of classes to choose from and i think it's the player who decides if it is "playable" if you can roleplay you can make a deaf mute halfing crippled barbarian a good character.. it may be difficult but it can be done....
interpretivechaos 02-03-07, 11:19 PM	In a high powered campaign (where the rest of the party is squeaking out every ounce of power they can) a fighter does not compare outside of 2-3 configurations, and these configurations are often modular enough that dropping fighter you can get decent amounts of spellcasting while pulling them off. Wizards has all but admitted that Fighters fall behind with Tome of Battle. Those classes are a lot more competitive for martial characters for those who don't want to play a fighter. Unfortunately, in my party, that is everyone, even those who want to play a bland sword swinging fighter that hacks things to pieces. IMO, that's the problem.
mxyzplk 02-04-07, 01:10 AM	I agree that boringness is the key problem with fighters - just not that many options on a given round. Well, the "Tome of Battle:Book of Nine Swords" has awesome ideas that add a lot of variety, but bringing that in really does mean "multiclassing is the answer". Unless you don't allow the core classes, but just allow Martial Stance and Martial Maneuver as "fighter only" feats. This way not everyone is all ninjaed out, but fighters get to grab some kewl abilities. If you want to/can use that book. Another very simple option - why is there a list of "fighter bonus feats"? Forget that noise. Let a fighter take any feat as their bonus feat; they're looking for stuff to improve their fighting anyway. Reduces complexity and helps a bit. "Monte Cook Presents: Iron Heroes" has a great system for feat trees, where you can make "Power Attack" better and better; a much more full-featured implementation of the "Greater" this and "Superior" that is elegant and has some "fighter specific" mechanics in them (pools of points you can use to power abilities, etc.).
evilgenius 02-04-07, 02:35 AM	The biggest problem I found with fighters is that once they choose feats, they're stuck. A wizard or a cleric can change their spells to meet the requirements of the adventure - heck, even Sorcerers and Bards can swap out spells when they level. So... I made all the fighter bonus feats open feats. You can change all of your BONUS feats (but not your regular feats) after 8 full hours of practice (similar to 8 hours of rest for a spellcaster), but you must still meet all prerequisites. In my game, Fighters are the total generalists - they can use any exotic weapon by practicing with it for 8 hours. Simple. However, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization would take another 8 hour period each for a new weapon; the fighter needs to have the prerequisites at the START of the 8 hour period. If a fighter drops a fighter bonus feat that was a prerequisite for another feat or a prestige class, they lose all the PrC's class abilities and access to the subsequent feats as per normal. This encourages fighters to take the bottom of a large number of feat trees, so that they can switch up easily. Dodge, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Mounted Combat and Point Blank Shot become much more attractive this way. Anyways, this solution is a good one for encouraging characters to play fighters beyond 2nd or 4th level; Since Fighter feats are the only "switchable" feats, suddenly players want a lot more of them; they play fighters longer to get more of those versatile feats. Since fighters can really do any job now, they're not left in a situation where they're only class abilities are nullified (ie a mounted charger type really can't go adventuring indoors that well, and a 2 handed weapon using smasher doesn't fare as well against flying creatures as an archer would). This also allows fighters to take feats that come out in later books, so that fighters aren't left "holding the bag" with sub-optimal feats while the Wizard goes and learns all the spiffy new spells. My $0.02 anyways. It's so simple. The rule can be summed up as: All Fighter Bonus Feats can be switched with 8 hours of practice. The fighter does not "forget" his old feat until the 8 hours are up and he learns the new feat. The fighter must have all prerequisites for the new feat at the start of the 8 hours of practice and must keep the prerequisites while using the new feat. The feat must be selected from the list of fighter bonus feats. Fighters cannot switch their normal feats in this manner.
Ghenesh 02-04-07, 04:57 PM	...the fallaccy man and his cohorts... :D thatt's funny. Evilgenius, the wild card feats is a very old solution, but it presents a huge problem, feats can be prerequisites for other feats and prestige classes, you must rule that feats that are prerequisites for other feats and/or prestige classes cannot be switched, also the fighter must be able to switch bonus feats gained by hit die advancement as well but only once per fighter level. With this rules, the fighter that wants to switch an entire feat tree must start with the high end feats and then go to the most basic ones. He won't get stucked by feats on the tree gained by hit die advancement, but once he uses a feat to qualify for a prestige class he's done for.
evilgenius 02-04-07, 10:55 PM	Evilgenius, the wild card feats is a very old solution, but it presents a huge problem, feats can be prerequisites for other feats and prestige classes, you must rule that feats that are prerequisites for other feats and/or prestige classes cannot be switched, also the fighter must be able to switch bonus feats gained by hit die advancement as well but only once per fighter level. With this rules, the fighter that wants to switch an entire feat tree must start with the high end feats and then go to the most basic ones. He won't get stucked by feats on the tree gained by hit die advancement, but once he uses a feat to qualify for a prestige class he's done for. Oh, I didn't know that was already out there. I don't see it as much of a problem. I would disagree that Fighters be allowed to switch out normal feats personally. The way I see it, if you use a normal feat (for character levels) as a prereq for another feat or a PrC, then fine, it doesn't switch so there's no loss. If you use a fighter feat (which I propose could be switched, or a "wildcard" feat as you mentioned) then simply don't switch it or you'll lose your PrC class abilities / subsequent feats on the feat tree. If you lose power attack as a feat, you lose your Improved Sunder too then. No biggie the way I see it. But to each their own. ...I would also give fighters 4 skill points and let them choose any two skills they want to be class skills, but that's just me.
Ghenesh 02-05-07, 09:08 AM	Dunno about choosing class skills, only the Expert NPC class has that feature (and the Exemplar PrC), but it's not really flavourful for the fighter to be doing that, i would just give the Fighter Spot and Knowledge (Combat and War).
ContinuityLapse 02-05-07, 10:25 AM	I've tried to address a lot of the problems raised here (skills, flexibility, scaling abilities) in my Fighter fix (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=783614). It pretty much covers everything I have to contribute on the topic.
Clawhound 02-05-07, 10:32 AM	Here's my logic: Since a wildcard feat is NOT an actual feat, but is instead class ability that mimics a feat, then you can't use one as a prerequisite to qualify for a class or a feat. By that logic, there is no problem. Wildcard feats should never be dependencies.
Scavelock 02-05-07, 11:01 AM	After re-reading this entire thread, I don’t think the class is necessarily bad, but it seems rather poorly designed. The fact that the fighter has to meet a host of different stat requirements to gain his bonus feats, does not necessarily sit well with me. To return to the question of skills, how does the fighter having spot make the class balanced or more playable? It might make him more proficient at avoiding sneak attacks (thereby, hurting the rogue/ranger a little), and it might also help him spot a ranger, but is it really that much of a help outside of combat? Does it make the class equal the wizard in terms of power at higher levels? I cannot help but think that it does not accomplish any of these things. I would think that something like tumble or sense motive might benefit the fighter more than spot; perhaps adding some out of combat skills exclusively for fighters might help too. Knowledge of nobility should be a given to fighters, since they probably should know who happens to be paying their wages and what heraldry is attached to these would-be-employers, and diplomacy would help them out of combat as well; survival might be a good addition as well. The fighter’s skill list, spot or no spot, does not make a lot of sense to me.
Ghenesh 02-05-07, 12:55 PM	Yes, Survival seems to make sense to the fighter, although this would make tracking less exclusive (in core rules only the ranger and druid are fit to track). I would prefer a new Knowledge related to fighting instead of Knowledge (royalty and nobility), the village guardian can be a fighter and never heard about nobility. I think Spot is very related to fighters, since fighting is very visual and they are used to take the role of guardians.
Clawhound 02-05-07, 01:19 PM	Spot matters because: - Surprise denies you your Dex/Dodge AC - Your character doesn't get a chance to prepare Once you think about that, you realize that fighters don't get a Dex bonus to AC, and being fighters, have nothing to prepare. In other words, spot really doesn't matter at all for a fighter. Spot only matters to dex-based characters (who need warning to not lose their AC) or to spellcasters (who need the prep time).
Squirrelloid 02-05-07, 09:17 PM	Spot matters because: - Surprise denies you your Dex/Dodge AC - Your character doesn't get a chance to prepare Once you think about that, you realize that fighters don't get a Dex bonus to AC, and being fighters, have nothing to prepare. In other words, spot really doesn't matter at all for a fighter. Spot only matters to dex-based characters (who need warning to not lose their AC) or to spellcasters (who need the prep time). Spot reduces the likelihood of a monster getting the drop on you. This means you're less likely to get munched before you've acted. (Come now, D+D at mid to high levels is rocket launcher tag, we all know it). It also denies your opponents prep time if you spot them first. Otherwise known as: "Crap, 4 person party - the rogue has good spot, the druid has good spot, the wizard has a familiar (2 checks, better than fighter spot), but the fighter won't see anything if we put him on watch." "I guess I know when we're going to be attacked."
LouCypher 02-05-07, 11:11 PM	The problem with the fighter is that is a product of its system. The D&D system has always been flawed because it is a game geared toward hack and slash and powermongering. I have being playing D&D since 1980 and I started again yesterday, so I have seen the many flaws of D&D. The biggest flaw in the D&D system is its prophecy to add new rules every month or so to make the players spend more money on their system. Why couldn’t the game designers make a simple role-playing game with totally different classes and races not just three types of the same fighter or four types of the same elf. It is so easy to make classes simple, unique and powerful so everyone would like to play them. First get rid of the feat and crossskill system. Second get rid of the uses per day limitation on special abilities. Third get rid of all the prestige classes and implement their unique abilities into the basic classes, it is beyond me why a rogue doesn’t have hide in plain sight or use poison. Fourth get rid of all the special abilities that are dependant on attributes like monk’s WIS bonus to AC which are prone to be abused. Fifth get rid of all the spells. Yes, you read correctly get rid of all complicated spells with many pages of obscure rulings and erratas and install a skill system for magic users that would increase the power of their magic as their skill increases. For example a typical magic user would have an offensive, defensive, alteration and movement magic skill that could increase by a factor of 1 unit every level. Using the same system a fighter could increase his attack and damage by a factor of 1 per level. A paladin could smite opposed alignment all day long and increase his ability by a factor of 1 per level and his divine grace with no CHA bonuses by 1 per 3 levels. A barbarian could increase his rage bonuses by a factor of 1 per level. A bard could increase his songs power by a factor of 1 per level. A monk could increase his armor by a factor of 1 per level. If you keep these simple progressions till eternity you won’t need epic rules. See how easy it is to make a simple system where everyone has unique abilities that improve with levels and not just a collection of feats and skills that everyone can have. I am also against paladins, rangers and bards casting spells this is the game designer’s way of making up for a poor class design. I am a firm believer of the KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid) principle and in keeping it simple I would eliminate all randomness out of character creation. All characters should start with 18,16,14,12,10 & 8 to distribute among their six attributes. The difference between the average Hit Points of a mage (2.5) and the average HPs of a fighter (5.5) is a meager 3 points so every character should get maximum HPs per level which should eliminate cheating and make it easier to create a character at home for easy approval by the DM. I would also love an experience system that would award quadruple the experience for talking your way out of combat, which would force role-playing and limit the abuses by players who kill everything they meet just to get the experience. I would add to my wish list an experience system that would award experience for opening locks and other miscellaneous things. I would love to eliminate the 1,001 different kinds of elves, it shows the lack of creativity or laziness of the game designers. There is no need to have so many different colors of the same part when one is all you need. I would also eliminate all the half races again due to lack of creativity and make orcs, goblins, kobolds, etc. standard races. The best way to make unique races is to give each race a unique bonus to a stat, special combat bonuses, special movement bonuses, access to special racial weapons and armors, etc. Paladins should be either good or evil and be able to smite their opposed alignment, in other words good paladins smite evil and evil paladins smite good. Now wouldn’t it be nice if all you needed to play a game were 4 basic rulebooks like DM’s Guide, Players Handbook, Monster Manual and Deities & Demigods. Wait a minute didn’t we have 4 book of rules for the first 8 years of AD&D? :-)
HamHam 02-05-07, 11:46 PM	Please tell me the above post is a joke of some kind.
Azar_of_Faerun 02-05-07, 11:48 PM	It is said that what is called "the spirit of an age" is something to which one cannot return. That this spirit gradually dissipates is due to the world's coming to an end. In the same way, a single year does not have just spring or summer. A single day, too, is the same. For this reason, although one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done. Thus it is important to make the best out of every generation.
Seerow 02-06-07, 12:00 AM	For those earlier in the thread messing with an altered version of my combat styles, I'll point out with mine it starts as a move action, becomes a swift action at level 9. To get to be a Free Action, it require a special Warrior's Focus ability. You can expend the Warrior's Focus to change as an immediate action instead. But the always-on free action effect gets what Tony Vargas was describing.
Scavelock 02-06-07, 08:35 AM	Spot reduces the likelihood of a monster getting the drop on you. This means you're less likely to get munched before you've acted. (Come now, D+D at mid to high levels is rocket launcher tag, we all know it). It also denies your opponents prep time if you spot them first. To an extent I agree with you, but stealth is a rather large part of the ranger's and rogue's role in the game. If every class has spot and can detect them with some assurity, it sort of weakens their roles in the game, especially if the DM is fond of throwing enemy NPCs at a party. From a flavor standpoint, and perhaps I base this wrongly, off of my own experience with DnD, but the fighter has always struck me as a shocktrooper or an ancient or medieval style soldier, not a modern guerilla fighter/scout/SEAL type of character class. I just assumed, and again, perhaps wrongly, that the armies of Faerun or Greyhawk hired rogues and rangers to look out for ambushes, and likely, they would fulfill this role in an adventuring party as well. I do agree that there is a skill problem with the fighter class; the skill list seems horribly limiting from both a mechanical and roleplaying perspective, at least to me.
Clawhound 02-06-07, 09:15 AM	Fighters don't need spot. Magic trumps spot. Invisibility bypasses spot. Alarm bypasses invisibility and hide. Teleportation bypasses everything. Fighters don't usually need to worry if an opponent gets a drop on them. Their AC is always on. Their opponents close with them before they can move, which allows them to full attack from the get-go. They do have a problem with spellcasters, but every class tends to have problems with spellcasters.
Archangel62 02-06-07, 10:04 AM	Fighters don't need spot. Magic trumps spot. Invisibility bypasses spot. Alarm bypasses invisibility and hide. Teleportation bypasses everything. Fighters don't usually need to worry if an opponent gets a drop on them. Their AC is always on. Their opponents close with them before they can move, which allows them to full attack from the get-go. They do have a problem with spellcasters, but every class tends to have problems with spellcasters. No, their AC is not always on unless they took feats to always wear their armor or if they wear bracers of armor. Last few games the fighter-esque character was asleep and the party got hit they were the most vulnerable.
eggplantm 02-06-07, 12:30 PM	I have not read all the posts on what people think will fix the fighter but I will add my 2 cents and list what we did for the fighter in our campaigns The fighter gets a class ability at fourth level and every four levels therafter that we call weapon specialization though we keep the feats by the same name and the way they function. When acquired, the figher picks one weapon and gains a +2 damage bonus with it. Every additional time this ability is gained, the fighter chooses another weapon to gain a +2 bonus to and can increase a previous weapon's bonus by +2 (including the weapon just gained). This functions similarly to the ranger's favored enemy bonus system. Weapon focus is not required for the fighter to gain these bonuses, only if the fighter also wishes to take the feats of the same name. So, this allows a figher to get a +2 damage bonus in up to five weapons with for more +2's spread among them. Many would likely pick to pile it all on the first one for a spread like +10 with let's say bastard sword +2 with daggers +2 with longbows +2 with shortswords and +2 with morningstars (for weird DR enemies). This fighter could still pick up the feats Wpn Sp and Gr Wpn Spec and add another +4 to the bastard sword damage or others if he so chooses. We've found this gives us a reason to stick with the fighter as your primary weapon continues to improve and you aren't forced to take weapon specialization as a feat if you don't want to.
TekknoMancer 02-06-07, 01:22 PM	Another very simple option - why is there a list of "fighter bonus feats"? Forget that noise. Let a fighter take any feat as their bonus feat; they're looking for stuff to improve their fighting anyway. Reduces complexity and helps a bit. I have been saying this for a long time. Whenever a new supplement comes out, if the feats aren't specifically labelled as "fighter bonus" feats, the fighter can't take them as bonus feats. I agree that they should have MUCH greater freedom. The only potential problem I see is a 2-level dip to grab metamagic or item creation feats. Perhaps simply disallowing a few categories of feats that don't make sense would work, instead of allowing a specific list. Why can't I take Iron Will as a bonus feat? I would live with potential abuses via multiclassing just to get rid of that "bonus list" garbage.
Clawhound 02-06-07, 02:04 PM	No, their AC is not always on unless they took feats to always wear their armor or if they wear bracers of armor. Last few games the fighter-esque character was asleep and the party got hit they were the most vulnerable. For the vast majority of encounters, fighters will have their armor on. For these encounters, their armor will be "always on". This situation is so typical that we can just say, "a fighter's armor is always on." It's a bit of a hand wave, but it covers 80-90% of the game fairly well. If the fighter had both Spot and Listen skills, and he was sleeping, would those skills have made a difference? No. The fighter would STILL have been asleep and he would STILL have not been wearing armor. That is my point. Spot and Listen do very little for a fighter. Where a fighter fails in those skills it usually leaves fighter in a better melee position. Where it happens at range, a fighter has his portable cover (tower shield). You are thinking that a fighter is an arcane caster. Please stop.
Thought 02-06-07, 02:07 PM	Well it isn't that hard to get rid of metamagic class dipping by just stating that a Fighter Bonus Feat cannot be utilized for metamagic feats (and possibly item creation feats, but I am more okay with that). Unless I am recalling incorrectly, feats are already divided along those lines (general, metamagic, item creation). As the fighter should be a feat fiend, one possible solution is to enhance the potency of those feats. Like say that if a fighter takes a feat that grants skill bonuses, those skills because class skills. Or say that a fighter takes skills based on weapon types, rather than specific weapons (One-Handed Martial, as opposed to Morningstar). This allows a fighter to have a wider selections of possible applications per feat. Turning a fighter into a warblade or whatever other class one might be excited about really doesn't seem to be the answer. Of course, as I am one of the many with a Fighter Fix Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=783318), I may be biased.
malignor 02-06-07, 02:24 PM	My suggestion, which I'll make again, is to have feats taken during fighter levels self-stackable. Illustration by example Dwarven Fighter Fred at level 1 Weapon Focus Spear (no prereq) --> +1 hit with spear Power Attack (no prereq) --> PA 1-1 for 1-handed, PA 2-1 for 2-handed level 2 Cleave (PA prereq) --> Cleave 1/round +(PA prereq) (no prereq) --> PA 1-1 for 1-handed, PA 2-1 for 2-handed, +1dm extra for 1st BAB invested level 3 Dodge (no prereq) --> +1 dodge AC against 1 opponent level 4 Weapon Specialization Spear (WFocus prereq) --> +2 damage w/ spear +(WFocus prereq) (no prereq) --> +1 hit with spear (+2 hit total) level 6 Great Cleave (Cleave prereq) --> Cleave inf/round +(Cleave prereq) (PA prereq) --> roll twice for damage on 1st cleave of the round, take best result ++(PA prereq) (no prereq) --> PA 1-1 for 1-handed, PA 2-1 for 2-handed, +1dm/BAB for 1st & 2nd BAB invested. level 8 Mobility (Dodge prereq) --> +4 dodge AC against AOOs +(Dodge prereq) (no prereq) --> +1 dodge pool, total +2 (+1AC against 2 foes, or +2 AC against 1 foe) level 9 Spring Attack (Mobility prereq) --> split movement up before & after attack action +(Mobility prereq) (Dodge prereq) --> +1 dodge AC against AOOs, total +5 against AOOs ++(Dodge prereq) (no prereq) --> +1 dodge pool, total +3 (split up among foes for +1 or +2, or focus all +3AC on one foe) ... this prerequisite feat stacking only occurs with feats you take on your fighter levels. Thus it's very advantageous to keep levelling up in fighter and climb the feat chains. This makes the fighter hold onto its mundane nature, while also giving the class a kind of synergy that's unique and effective. I think this would make the fighter a class worth staying in, and no longer a "dip" class.
Clawhound 02-06-07, 02:29 PM	"Mundane nature". That's one of the flavor things that I enjoy about fighter.
malignor 02-06-07, 03:43 PM	I'd also like to point out that this would make the most "prereq-ed" feats, like Whirlwind Attack and Greater Weapon Specialization, absolutely worthwhile for a fighter. Whirlwind (Spring Attack prereq, Combat Expertise prereq): As full attack, hit everyone you want in reach at full attack bonus. +(Spring Attack prereq) (Mobility prereq): +1 hit on spring attacks ++(Mobility prereq) (Dodge prereq): +1 to AC against AOOs; total +6 AC against AOOs +++(Dodge prereq) (no prereq): +1 to dodge pool; total pool +4 (distribute or focus among foes) +(Combat Expertise prereq) (no prereq): 1-1 CX, +1 AC when hit bonus is invested. Bonuses from Whirlwind Feat: the feat itself, +1 hit on spring attacks, +1 to AC against AOOs, +1 to dodge pool, +1 to AC from enough investment in combat expertise. Greater Weapon Specialization (GWF prereq): +2 damage +(GWF prereq) (WSpec prereq): +1 hit, +2 from this feat now ++(WSpec prereq) (WF prereq): +1 damage, +4 from this feat now +++(WF prereq) (no prereq): +1 hit, +4 from this feat now Bonus from taking GWSpec: +2 hit, +3 damage Grand total: +6 hit, +6 damage --> compare against barbarian rage progression and now fighters don't suck so bad. Or consider the unarmed fighter, or "true martial artist"... Improved Unarmed Strike: No AOO from Unarmed Strike. Improved Grapple (Impr.US): +4 Grapples, no AOO from grapples +(IUS): increases to 1d4 Stunning Fist (IUS): Fort 10+1/2level+WIS; 1/4 levels ++(IUS): increases to 1d6 Deflect Arrows (Impr.Un.Str.): Deflect 1 known arrow/round +++(IUS): increases to 1d8 Snatch Arrows (Defl. Arrows): Catch projectile when deflecting +(DeflArrows) (IUS): deflect 2 arrows/round (no increase in # you can snatch though) ++++(IUS): increases to 2d6 Weapon Focus Unarmed: +1 hit Weapon Spec Unarmed (WFoc): +2 damage +(WFoc): increases to +2 hit Greater Weapon Focus Unarmed (WSpec): +1 hit +(WSpec) (WFoc): Increases to +3 damage ++(WFoc): Increases to +3 hit Greater Weapon Spec Unarmed (GWFoc): +2 damage +(GWFoc) (WSpec): increases to +2 hit ++(WSpec) (WFoc): increases to +4 damage +++(WFoc): increases to +4 hit Improved Crit Unarmed: Crit 19-20 Improved Natural Attack Unarmed: increases to 2d8 So with the abilities from 11 feats alone (7 from fighter12, 4 from HD/3; so 1 missing... 2 if human), an unarmed fighter can be doing: Unarmed Strike +6 melee (2d8+6/19-20), with options for stunning fists. Add in BAB+12 and modest strength 16... Ftr12 --> Unarmed Strike +21/16/11 melee (2d8+9/19-20) Which isn't bad at all. Compare it to a 12th level Monk who went all-out of unarmed strike feats (Weapon Focus, Improved Crit, Improved Natural Attack) and with similar ability scores... Mnk12 --> Unarmed Strike +13/13/13/8 melee (2d8+3/19-20) ... now the Monk isn't so hot (numbers wise) in unarmed combat, and is more relegated to the role of a more mystic martial artist, while the fighter is a martial warrior. However, the monk still has additional options (more stunning fists, improved trip or disarm) and 1 extra feat over the Fighter... but the fighter still has better equipment options (can use bows at full BAB) and more hitpoints, and just plain does more damage and hits the higher ACs.
kozoras 02-06-07, 05:21 PM	Ah another "fix fighter" thread I would like to remind you that most such discussions fail because everyone makes gis own suggestions without taking into account other's opinions. First of all, lets all agree what are the problems of the fighter class, then brainstorm about possible solutions, discuss those possible solutions and then chose the best.Next, lets suggest a few alternative fighters that are based upon the above metioned solutions.Finally conclude to a fighter class and present it in a new thread where others can comment our semi-completed class then slightly alter the class slightly. When everyone agrees we could even submit our alternative fighter and ask them to take our work into account! So lets begin with determining the fighter's problems. 1)Damage output should be higher( those damn warmages sorceres and druids...) 2)Useless outside of combat! 3)Low Defensive capabilities. Now what do YOU think are the fighter's weaknesses?
Ghenesh 02-06-07, 08:28 PM	DB error... wonder if this will be posted.
Ghenesh 02-06-07, 08:40 PM	DB error... wonder if this will be posted. So lets begin with determining the fighter's problems. 1)Damage output should be higher( those damn warmages sorceres and druids...) 2)Useless outside of combat! 3)Low Defensive capabilities. 1) Do not agree, it depends heavily on the build, an ubERcharger can outdamage any kind of mele build, and it can be done being a fighter. The mele damage dealer job is more akin to the Barbarian and the Paladin (i will not be mentioning archer builds cause those are entirely gear dependant, can be made with many other classes with almost same results (even Warrior!) so they prove nothing). 2) Yes, more skills! better skill list! 3) Yes, custom save boost! little AC bonus! Both solutions are very flavourful. And i would like to address two more issues to agree on: 4) Too many dead levels, make it a dip class. 5) No incentive to keep on the class, cause: (class features + feats) > (feats + more feats).
kozoras 02-08-07, 05:27 PM	1) Do not agree, it depends heavily on the build, an ubERcharger can outdamage any kind of mele build, and it can be done being a fighter. The mele damage dealer job is more akin to the Barbarian and the Paladin (i will not be mentioning archer builds cause those are entirely gear dependant, can be made with many other classes with almost same results (even Warrior!) so they prove nothing). 2) Yes, more skills! better skill list! 3) Yes, custom save boost! little AC bonus! Both solutions are very flavourful. And i would like to address two more issues to agree on: 4) Too many dead levels, make it a dip class. 5) No incentive to keep on the class, cause: (class features + feats) > (feats + more feats). I agree with the mentioned weaknesses now about damage dealing: My mistake i have not said it correctly. The damage dealing builds are archers and power attackin' greatsword wielders and the occasional chain user. The dual wielder and the shield user are not good damage dealers.Eventhough good damage output is not a must for the shield wielder a dual wielder 100% fighter should be able to cause a good amount of damage.
TekknoMancer 02-09-07, 11:06 PM	<multiple post>
TekknoMancer 02-09-07, 11:19 PM	<multiple post>
TekknoMancer 02-09-07, 11:20 PM	Premise of this fix: Fighters should be able to represent many warrior types -- each character is specific, but the class as a whole is general The class will be viable from 1-20, higher levels still have merit People may still dip 2-4 levels, this is difficult to prevent This class is not intended to be balanced against other martial classes; they also need a boost I would remove the barbarian from the game or make a PrC, this class limits what the fighter can do Alignment- Any. Hit Die- d10. Class Skills As per PHB Skill Points at 1st Level- (4 + Int modifier) ×4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level- 4 + Int modifier. Table: Fighter Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +2 +1 +1 Bonus feat, Professional 2nd +2 +3 +1 +1 Bonus feat 3rd +3 +3 +2 +2 4th +4 +4 +2 +2 Bonus feat 5th +5 +4 +2 +2 Dedicated Learning 6th +6 +5 +3 +3 Bonus feat 7th +7 +5 +3 +3 Adaptive Learning 8th +8 +6 +4 +4 Bonus feat 9th +9 +6 +4 +4 Style Specialization (I) 10th +10 +7 +5 +5 Bonus feat 11th +11 +7 +5 +5 Style Specialization (I) 12th +12 +8 +6 +6 Bonus feat 13th +13 +8 +6 +6 Style Specialization (II) 14th +14 +9 +6 +6 Bonus feat 15th +15 +9 +7 +7 Style Specialization (II) 16th +16 +10 +7 +7 Bonus feat 17th +17 +10 +7 +7 Style Specialization (III) 18th +18 +11 +8 +8 Bonus feat 19th +19 +11 +8 +8 Style Specialization (III) 20th +20 +12 +9 +9 Bonus feat Bonus Feats: Fighters may choose any feat as a bonus feat, except for those marked as metamagic or that rely on a class ability of another class (ie: extra turning, magical item creation feats). I have done away with the "bonus list" because it is really tedious, especially as new supplements are added. Professional: Fighters represent many different types of warriors from many different backgrounds. As such, they will acquire different types of skills to aid them. Choose 2 skills to add to the fighter's class list at 1st level. Dedicated Learning: Fighters are the master of feats and can learn what is impossible to others. Fighters may overcome the prerequisites (such as ability scores, skill ranks, prereq feats) of feats that they learn. I have not worked out mechanics yet, but I would have the prerequisites that could be overcome based on the number of fighter levels. Adaptive Learning: Once per day, you may spend 1 hour training to exchange one feat for another. All prerequisites of the new feat must be met (Dedicated Learning may be used). If the feat being traded out is a prerequisite for another feat, use of that feat is lost unless Dedicated Learning can overcome the prereqs. Style Specialization: Choose a style at level 9 and at level 11. The style chosen at level 9 progresses to II at level 13 and III at 17; the style chosen at level 11 progresses to II at level 15 and III at 19. These styles represent high level abilities that act as the capstone for the fighter class. I have not come up with specific abilities, but some potential themes: Feat Mastery - gives synergies or feat-scaling, as suggested by other threads Armor Mastery Weapon Mastery Battlefield Control - improves tripping, grappling, bullrush, etc. Ranged Focus Mounted Focus Magic Receptive - Healing and buffs become more effective, gives allies a reason to buff the fighter instead of themselves Antimagic Tactics Survival Focus - improves overall toughness of the class Team Tactics - specific techniques for fighting with allies
mindintellect 02-10-07, 01:14 AM	Do you think it would be overpowered to give the fighter total exotic weapon proficiency (all weapons) as long as the fighter lvl is the character's highest class level?
Ghenesh 02-10-07, 02:24 AM	It won't be overpowered at all, but it presents three issues as you present it: 1.- How can you explain, role-playing wise, the lose of proficiencies when your fighter's levels are not your most anymore. 2.- It will certainly create an optimal route to the fighter, to use exotic weapons instead of martial ones. 3.- When you think about it, it's not as flavorful as it seems at first glance. What you can do is to offer Exotic Weapon Proficency as a bonus feat at every odd level, but be careful not to overload the 1st level. Teknomancer, your variant seems quite nice but as it is vaguely defined i can't give you any more profound insight, one thing you must care is to not too fall into the over-powering game, give a value to the features you're giving the fighter compared to feats and calculate it, my limit is 20 bonus feats equivalence. Per example, upgrading a Bad Save Bonus to "Medium" is worth a feat, increasing a Bad Save Bonus to Good is worth two feats, increasing the skill points per level is worth anoter one, your variant has a value around 22 feats equivalence, the original fighter has 11. Anyway, i still think giving the fighter more skill points (Spot as a class skill) and a bit more bonus feats does the trick just right.
Gecon 02-10-07, 02:51 AM	The idea to give fighters profiency with all exotic weapons would however fit very well into the general concept about fighters - specialists of the weapon useage skill. I doubt however that it will make much of a difference in respect to making the class stronger. Sure, some exotic weapons are great. But the difference isn't gigantic.
greatfrito 02-10-07, 02:54 AM	To me scaling feats seem the problem: none of them really scale. The Combat Form feats go a bit to fix this, but they're only a few feats, and they're not likely to all belong to the same fighter (you have to stretch to get four of them sometimes). If you made more Fighter Feats scale with the number of related feats you have, or perhaps have some other form of feat synergy, I think you'd go a long way toward fixing the issues. Heck, the phrase feat-synergy made me think that that might be a nice way to do it; give the fighter a class feature called "Feat Synergy" that gives certain bonuses if they "master" specific disciplines (ie - a bonus for having all the two-weapon fighting feats, or all the Rapid/Multi-shot feats, or the Cleave tree) - something a bit better in power than an extra feat (more akin to the abilities available to Warblades, I think).
TekknoMancer 02-10-07, 09:14 PM	Teknomancer, your variant seems quite nice but as it is vaguely defined i can't give you any more profound insight, one thing you must care is to not too fall into the over-powering game, give a value to the features you're giving the fighter compared to feats and calculate it, my limit is 20 bonus feats equivalence. Per example, upgrading a Bad Save Bonus to "Medium" is worth a feat, increasing a Bad Save Bonus to Good is worth two feats, increasing the skill points per level is worth anoter one, your variant has a value around 22 feats equivalence, the original fighter has 11. I would not count the 4 skills to count against your 20 feats metric, since 4 skills/lvl is a fairly standard feature shared by several classes. Likewise, 1 good + 2 med saves could probably be considered equivalent to 2 good saves, which is also shared by many classes (CoDzilla anyone?). However, even if you were to consider the saves + extra skills to be worth 3 saves and for my total class sheet to be ~22 feats, I have seen many threads showing that even a feat every level leave much desired to the class. I have left a few vague points, specifically the "Dedicated Learning" and "Style Mastery" abilities. I have not come up with a fair mechanic for balancing the "Dedicated Learning," but I believe it is an ability that fits the class well. As for the "Style Mastery," I don't spend tons of time coming up with variants and trying to balance them. I merely introduce new concepts that could be developed further. The idea behind this particular feature is to give them abilities that are more powerful than feats and competitive with the high-level abilities of other classes (read: spells and maneuvers). If my version of the fighter seems powerful, that's because it is. Fighters are one of the "big 4" fundamental classes. Even with these boosts, a creative caster will be more powerful.
ragoftag 02-11-07, 12:16 PM	Is this a fair recap of our Fighter observations?:confused: : 1) Weak damage output 2) Non-combat disabilities 3) Poor defenses 4) Dead levels 5) Dip class, front loading leaves no incentive to stay in class But first, Azar_of_Faerun:cheer: It is said that what is called "the spirit of an age" is something to which one cannot return. That this spirit gradually dissipates is due to the world's coming to an end. In the same way, a single year does not have just spring or summer. A single day, too, is the same. For this reason, although one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done. Thus it is important to make the best out of every generation.Love it! 1) Weak damage output TekknoMancer:Adaptive Learning: Once per day, you may spend 1 hour training to exchange one feat for another. All prerequisites of the new feat must be met (Dedicated Learning may be used). If the feat being traded out is a prerequisite for another feat, use of that feat is lost unless Dedicated Learning can overcome the prereqs.:clap: Actually, if this were a level 4 to 8 level Class Feature, choosable among a pool of Fighter feats, it might be enough. Even with chunks missing, it may be the way to go. 2) Non-combat disabilities Are we all agreed on 4 + skill points? 3) Poor defenses AC may be "always on", but a caught Flatfooted in surprise round or flanked by a Rogue? Merely giving them Spot is not a real cure, these are professional blood and guts dealers, they NEED a counter to Sneak Attacks. 4) Dead levels With racial levels, racial substitution levels, etc, I'm going to bail on this point. 5) Dip class, front loading leaves no incentive to stay in class Perhaps a limit of feats exchangable based on Fighter level? Hmm... Might be a way to deal with #4.:plotting:
TekknoMancer 02-11-07, 12:45 PM	1) Weak damage output TekknoMancer::clap: Actually, if this were a level 4 to 8 level Class Feature, choosable among a pool of Fighter feats, it might be enough. Even with chunks missing, it may be the way to go. 2) Non-combat disabilities Are we all agreed on 4 + skill points? 3) Poor defenses AC may be "always on", but a caught Flatfooted in surprise round or flanked by a Rogue? Merely giving them Spot is not a real cure, these are professional blood and guts dealers, they NEED a counter to Sneak Attacks. 4) Dead levels With racial levels, racial substitution levels, etc, I'm going to bail on this point. 5) Dip class, front loading leaves no incentive to stay in class Perhaps a limit of feats exchangable based on Fighter level? Hmm... Might be a way to deal with #4.:plotting: 1) Damage isn't really the heart of the fighter's issues. There are plenty of ways to crank up the damage. However, I would like to see Supreme Power Attack as a standard feat so that people might not take Frenzied Berserker so readily. 2) 4+skills...yes, and an ability to choose 1 or 2 class skills 3)Poor defenses - I don't see sneak attack as a huge problem for fighters. High AC is protection, as is spot/listen (which fighter will be able to have in my fix). But really, armor of fortification can totally shut it down. What fighters really need is defense against magic and some of monsters' abilities such as reach and flying. 4)Dead levels in and of itself is a cosmetic issue, but fighters do need more abilities. 5)It's not frontloading that makes the fighter a dip class, it's the lack of high level abilities. That's why they need some capstone abilities.
MagnaSecuris 02-11-07, 01:42 PM	1. Damage output - if Weapon Spec scaled with fighter levels, then the problem is solved. Lots of fighters are battlefield control, not damage dealers. I agree with the Supreme Power Attack as a feat though. 2. 4+ Skill points. Spot and two skills chosen as class skills. 3. Instead of just buffing AC, let's give other defensive bonuses. How about a 10% chance to ignore Sneak Attack and Skirmish damage, and 15% chance to ignore any magic effects. Give this at 10th level, and the fighter is sitting pretty. An idea of my own- how about proficiencies only count as 1/2 a bonus feat. So they could take one regular (scaling) feat or two weapon/armor proficiencies.
Ghenesh 02-11-07, 02:19 PM	1) Weak damage output No, this has never been an issue, almost any class can improve it's damage output to obscene levels, and the fighter can certainly do so with little use of feats. 2) Non-combat disabilities Yes, completely agree, more skill points and a better skill list seems imperative. 4 + int mod skill points per level seems unanimous. As new skills to add i like Knowledge(Combat and War), Spot and Survival. 3) Poor defenses Yes! and i think this is the main point, the fighter can't tank effectively if it has such weak defenses. Reflex and Will Saving throws are simply meant to be failed, the AC is so easily surpassed by other classes with better features and so heavily item dependent that new fixes on the fighter should point to improve their defenses and resistances. 4) Dead levels and 5) Dip class This is the same problem, dead levels create optimal dip levels, i mean nobody smart is gonna take odd fighter levels and dip the class... they will dip at even levels. When a player see that the next level is not gonna give him anything, starts to see if benefits can be obtained somewhere else. Same happens to the sorcerer and the cleric. I firmly think that the way of the new Fighter fixes should be defensive, so making him a tank or a frontliner looks like the right choice, so he doesn't have to be afraid of the berserker, the cavalier and the blaster.
Thought 02-12-07, 11:25 AM	1.- How can you explain, role-playing wise, the lose of proficiencies when your fighter's levels are not your most anymore. Quite simple, really. Characters who don't have a majority of levels in Fighter get rusty with their weapon skills. Of course, a -2 penalty for exotic weapons after the "feat" has been gains might be better as opposed to going directly to -4 (for not having the proficiency). In general, I am quite a fan of limiting class skills to a certain degree of investment into that class. The exact degree of that investment is debatable and dependent on how many classes one thinks is realistically acceptable. Currently, I believe in a 1/3rd investment; if a class doesn't represent 1/3 of all levels, then certain features of that class should be lost until more time in that class is spent. Helps prevent dipping ("gee, I can dip for that free feat and weapon proficiencies, but that will loose me X abilities from my other classes...") and represents the need to keep in practice with abilities in order to use those abilities effectively. Of course, such a design hurts gamists. See my sig if you want to take a look at such level restrictions in a class design.
ragoftag 02-14-07, 10:47 PM	I was just bringing the thread forward for kozoras, trying to unify the points everyone has made. 1) Personally, damage is not the only function of the fighter, although it is important. A Damage Monster is possible with any class, its a matter (to me) of the character being useless out of his specialty. 3) A rogue catching a fighter flat footed can deal an easy 13 points just from his dice on a sneak attack at level 5. Tweaking can get this into scary numbers. Lets say the fighter has a +2 Breastplate, for a FF AC of 17. Our L5 Rogue needs a 14 to hit, 35% or just over a third of the time at the start of a fight, and if surprise is on his side, he can often do this twice before the Fighter can bring his shield to ready. A L5 Ftr has an average of around 27 Class hit points, 37 presuming a 14 Con. The fighter could easily be down before he gets to...anything. Since AC does not scoot up like BAB and its add ons, this gets ugly fast. I use this example cause it 'happened' last game..twice. "Why should the thief be able to do more damage than the professional?" was the question. I made my Bluff check, but she'll ask again. But really, armor of fortification can totally shut it down. What fighters really need is defense against magic and some of monsters' abilities such as reach and flying.Ah, but not every Fighter gets Fort Armor, but more importantly, you're right! Fighters need better defensive options and abilities. I've gathered in several feats that allow mere Fighters to protect soft targets, goad opponents, draw attention from others, etc. I'm considering a few that allow a Ftr to 'shrug' a bad save, counter a monster's special attack, etc. These boards are rife with juicy ideas and solutions.
Ghenesh 02-15-07, 12:02 AM	So we agree that what the fighter is really lacking is more defensive options, at least defensive options that let him take the tank role better than the rest of the classes. The Goad feat in Races of Stone is a really good idea for a fighter, but the charisma prerequisites made it almost impossible for a Fighter to qualify, and specially easy for paladins. What about the parrying system proposed by psionicbattousai in http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=774084, i think this could provide a great deal of defensive feats that improve the fighter class.
Ghenesh 02-15-07, 07:27 PM	Ok then, i was thinking a little while and came up with a VERY simple fix for the fighter. I read the most common issues on fixing the fighter class that has been discussed so far: * The fighter doesn't need more feats. * Has no scalable features. * Too many dead levels. * Too few skill points. * Crappy skill list. * Low defenses to do what's supposed to do. I have always thought that my fixes aren't liked because of their simplicity and the little power enhancement, but i can't help it, the fighter is a very simple class and i wanna keep it that way, besides i don't want to match the fighter with spellcasters (ToB deals with that), what i want is to make the Fighter class wanted to be taken the full 20 levels, just that. Hence, without further ado, i present to you my 5th "Simple Fighter Fix": Fighter (fix 1.5) Class Skills (key ability): Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis) and Swim (Str). Skill Points at first level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier Table 1: The Fighter Fort Ref Will Level BAB Save Save Save Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Fighter Bonus Feat 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Fighter Bonus Feat 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Combat Resistance +1 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Fighter Bonus Feat 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Combat Prowess +1 6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Fighter Bonus Feat 7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Combat Dodge +1 8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Fighter Bonus Feat 9th +9 +6 +3 +3 Combat Resistance +2 10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Fighter Bonus Feat 11th +11 +7 +3 +3 Combat Prowess +2 12th +12 +8 +4 +4 Fighter Bonus Feat 13th +13 +8 +4 +4 Combat Dodge +2 14th +14 +9 +4 +4 Fighter Bonus Feat 15th +15 +9 +5 +5 Combat Resistance +3 16th +16 +10 +5 +5 Fighter Bonus Feat 17th +17 +10 +5 +5 Combat Prowess +3 18th +18 +11 +6 +6 Fighter Bonus Feat 19th +19 +11 +6 +6 Combat Dodge +3 20th +20 +12 +6 +6 Fighter Bonus Feat Combat Resistance (ex): The fighter learns to resist the hazards of combat. At 3rd level the fighter must choose one of the three saving throws (Fortitude, Reflex or Will), the fighter gains a +1 bonus on the selected saving throw. This bonus increases to +2 at 9th level and to +3 at 15th level. Combat Prowess (ex): Practice makes the master. At 5th level the fighter gains a +1 bonus on all opposed checks to resolve any Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip attempts. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and to +3 at 17th level. Combat Dodge (ex): The fighter improves her defense with expertise. At 7th level the fighter gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC, this bonus improves to +2 at 13th level and to +3 at 19th level. I refined the new skill list with the most used skills in fighter variants, the new features are marked in a redish color for easy reading. Everything that's not described in here works as described in the PHB (or SRD Core Rules). So, what do you think?
Electricbee 02-15-07, 10:05 PM	Lets throw something else out there : Yet Another Fighter Fix: Standard Fighters BAB, Saves, Bonus feats, and HD. Skills: As fighter plus any 2 skills of the players choice as long as the character does not have a negative modifier in the ability score that modifies the skill. 4 + Int Modifier skill points per level. (x4 at first level) (let the fighter have a little depth already) At levels 3,7,11, 15, and 19 choose one of the following abilities: Weapon Optimization: All weapons weilded by fighter deal damage as though it is one size larger. (multiple uses stack to maximum of a 3 step increase, affects all weapons the fighter is proficient with) Hardiness: Gain DR 2/-, selecting this ability multiple times does stack. Battle Poise: Gain a +1 competence bonus that applies to hit or to AC. The fighter may change whether the bonus applies to hit or to AC as a free action on his turn once per round. Multiple selections of this ability stack. If the fighter has a +2 bonus or higer from multiple selections of this ability, he may split his bonus between attack and AC. Sturdiness: Fighter gains +1 bonus to all saves. Multiple selections of this ability stack Magic Resistance: Fighter gains SR of 4 + his fighter level. A fighter may select this ability multiple times, each additional time he selects it his SR increases by an additional 4 points. Manueverablity: A fighter gains a +5 bonus to movement when wearing medium or heavy armor. Multiple selections of this ability stack Fortification: Fighter gains 25% immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks and other precision based damage. A fighter may take this ability up to 3 times, gaining a maximum 75% resistance to such attacks. At levels 5, 9, 13, and 17 a fighter may add one skill to his list of class skills. The fighter may not choose a skill if the ability that modifies the skill has a negative modifier.
Ghenesh 02-16-07, 08:44 AM	Skills: As fighter plus any 2 skills of the players choice as long as the character does not have a negative modifier in the ability score that modifies the skill. 4 + Int Modifier skill points per level. (x4 at first level) (let the fighter have a little depth already) Ok, do you realize that only the Expert npc class and the Exemplar PrC can choose their class skills, and that's their main feature. I don't think this is the way to go. At levels 3,7,11, 15, and 19 choose one of the following abilities: Weapon Optimization: All weapons weilded by fighter deal damage as though it is one size larger. (multiple uses stack to maximum of a 3 step increase, affects all weapons the fighter is proficient with) Hardiness: Gain DR 2/-, selecting this ability multiple times does stack. Battle Poise: Gain a +1 competence bonus that applies to hit or to AC. The fighter may change whether the bonus applies to hit or to AC as a free action on his turn once per round. Multiple selections of this ability stack. If the fighter has a +2 bonus or higer from multiple selections of this ability, he may split his bonus between attack and AC. Sturdiness: Fighter gains +1 bonus to all saves. Multiple selections of this ability stack Magic Resistance: Fighter gains SR of 4 + his fighter level. A fighter may select this ability multiple times, each additional time he selects it his SR increases by an additional 4 points. Manueverablity: A fighter gains a +5 bonus to movement when wearing medium or heavy armor. Multiple selections of this ability stack Fortification: Fighter gains 25% immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks and other precision based damage. A fighter may take this ability up to 3 times, gaining a maximum 75% resistance to such attacks. Some of the features are good, but this is the same as making this feats and adding more bonus feats to the fighter (wich would be better). Weapon Optimization makes obsolete Monkey Grip, Hardiness do the same to Great Resilence and the Dwarven Defender PrC. Battle Poise and Sturdiness are good but a bit overpowered. Manueverablity should eliminate the movement penalty of one kind of armor, not add 5' of movement, imagine somebody taking this several times and moving faster with armor than unarmored. Magic Resistance and Fortification are simply wrong, those are magic effects, if you want it this way why don't you give them Dim Door or Enlarge Person. At levels 5, 9, 13, and 17 a fighter may add one skill to his list of class skills. The fighter may not choose a skill if the ability that modifies the skill has a negative modifier. Again no, what class does this? The fighter should not be converted into a skill monkey. The general idea is good, i tried the same approach a while ago with diferent features to chose, although some were alike: DR 1/--, +1 Hit bonus, +1 AC bonus and +1 Save bonus. But all this can be better off as feats, and most of it already exists.
Electricbee 02-16-07, 06:53 PM	<Quote: Originally Posted by Electricbee Skills: As fighter plus any 2 skills of the players choice as long as the character does not have a negative modifier in the ability score that modifies the skill. 2 + Int Modifier skill points per level. (x4 at first level) (let the fighter have a little depth already) Ok, do you realize that only the Expert npc class and the Exemplar PrC can choose their class skills, and that's their main feature. I don't think this is the way to go. Quote: Originally Posted by Electricbee At levels 3,7,11, 15, and 19 choose one of the following abilities: Weapon Optimization: All weapons weilded by fighter deal damage as though it is one size larger. (multiple uses stack to maximum of a 3 step increase, affects all weapons the fighter is proficient with) Hardiness: Gain DR 2/-, selecting this ability multiple times does stack. Battle Poise: Gain a +1 competence bonus that applies to hit or to AC. The fighter may change whether the bonus applies to hit or to AC as a free action on his turn once per round. Multiple selections of this ability stack. If the fighter has a +2 bonus or higher from multiple selections of this ability, he may split his bonus between attack and AC. Sturdiness: Fighter gains +1 bonus to all saves. Multiple selections of this ability stack Magic Resistance: Fighter gains SR of 4 + his fighter level. A fighter may select this ability multiple times, each additional time he selects it his SR increases by an additional 4 points. Manueverablity: A fighter gains a +5 bonus to movement when wearing medium or heavy armor. Multiple selections of this ability stack Fortification: Fighter gains 25% immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks and other precision based damage. A fighter may take this ability up to 3 times, gaining a maximum 75% resistance to such attacks. Some of the features are good, but this is the same as making this feats and adding more bonus feats to the fighter (wich would be better). Weapon Optimization makes obsolete Monkey Grip, Hardiness do the same to Great Resilence and the Dwarven Defender PrC. Battle Poise and Sturdiness are good but a bit overpowered. Maneuverability should eliminate the movement penalty of one kind of armor, not add 5' of movement, imagine somebody taking this several times and moving faster with armor than unarmored. Magic Resistance and Fortification are simply wrong, those are magic effects, if you want it this way why don't you give them Dim Door or Enlarge Person. Quote: Originally Posted by Electricbee At levels 5, 9, 13, and 17 a fighter may add one skill to his list of class skills. The fighter may not choose a skill if the ability that modifies the skill has a negative modifier. Again no, what class does this? The fighter should not be converted into a skill monkey. The general idea is good, I tried the same approach a while ago with different features to chose, although some were alike: DR 1/--, +1 Hit bonus, +1 AC bonus and +1 Save bonus. But all this can be better off as feats, and most of it already exists. /> The idea behind the build is to shore up the areas of a fighter that are commonly seen to be most problematic: No scalable abilities make fighters unplayable at high levels Several of the fighter only abilities scale Fighter has no impact on game outside of combat: Giving the fighter a few skills that are broader based lets him impact the game more; his very limited number of skill points will always prevent him from being an effective skill monkey. That said, I’m thinking 2 skill points per level would probably be more in line. Also it would probably make sense to limit the added class skills to skills that may be attempted to use untrained. Anything a fighter can do a warblade or psychic warrior or druid or cleric can do better By creating class features instead of more feats, you create exclusive abilities for the class, things that only a fighter can do. By making the abilities scalable, you increase the high level appeal of the fighter class. Also the abilities are chosen to allow the player to compensate for some of the perceived weakness of the fighter class. As far as the idea that it requires magic to resist magic or to resist precision based damage, I just don't think it’s valid. The idea of being able to shrug off spells or sneak attacks due to fortitude or skill seems within the fantasy pail. Through iron force of will he shrugs off the Wizards mind control magic and ignores the barrage of hostile spells as he charges across the battlefield, or On feeling the brush of the assasin’s dagger in the small of his back, our fighter instinctively rolled away from the blade turning what might have been a deadly wound into a gash that his assailant would live to regret inflicting. I think fixing the fighter by leaving it a skill lacking feat overburdened class fails to address the problems. The ideas for the class need work polish and checks for balance, but I think a rebuild of a fighter needs to rebuild it to address the issues with the class instead of just throwing more of what the fighter already has plenty of onto the class.
Aage 02-17-07, 10:50 AM	My turn! My turn! *jumps while waving a pink flag* Note: If this is really bad, I blame it on the fact that I've never made a complete class before... :P Fighter HD = d10 Class skills: 4+Int modifier (x4 at level 1): Balance, Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Spot, Swim,(see professional class feature) Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 1 2 0 0 Fighter's Favoured Weapon, Professional 2 2 3 0 0 Bonus Feat 3 3 3 1 1 4 4 4 1 1 Bonus Feat 5 5 4 1 1 Discipline +1 6 6 5 2 2 Art of War 7 7 5 2 2 8 8 6 2 2 Bonus Feat 9 9 6 3 3 10 10 7 3 3 Discipline +2 11 11 7 3 3 12 12 8 4 4 Bonus Feat 13 13 8 4 4 Art of War 14 14 9 4 4 15 15 9 5 5 Discipline +3 16 16 10 5 5 Bonus Feat 17 17 10 5 5 18 18 11 6 6 19 19 11 6 6 20 20 12 6 6 Discipline +4, Bonus Feat, Art of War (Perfected) Class Features: Weapon and Armour proficiencies: The fighter is proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons, as well as Light, Medium and Heavy Armours and all Shields. Fighter’s Favoured Weapon: At level 1, the fighter chooses his signature weapon, with which he gains bonuses to attack and damages as he progresses the class. This class feature replaces weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialisation, melee weapon mastery and greater weapon specialisation. As long as the fighter has the level required to take any of those feats, he is considered to have them for purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes. At 1st level it provides +1 to attack rolls. This increases by +1 at each level divisible by 10. At 3th level he gains +1 to damage rolls. This increases to +2 at level 7, +4 at level 11, +7 at level 15 and +10 at level 19. At 9th level, the benefit of Improved Critical is added to the weapon. The benefit of Weapon Supremacy is added at level 18. Professional: Fighters come from a wide variety of backgrounds, and as such have different talents. A fighter may add any two skills to his list of class skills. Bonus Feat: At level 2, again at level 4, and every four levels thereafter the fighter can select a bonus feat from the list of feats noted as fighter feats. Discipline: Such is the discipline of a fighter that he can add a +1 bonus to reflex and willpower saving throws at 5th level. At level 10, 15 and 20 this bonus increases to +2, +3 and +4 respectively. Arts of War: Upon reaching level 6, the fighter chooses one of the following arts of war. He gains the ability listed under lesser. At 13th level chooses another art and gains the benefit of the lesser ability. At level 20 he chooses the perfected art of any of the two he has. Tactical Soldier: The fighter concentrating on this art uses tactical manoeuvres to distract and disable his opponents. Lesser: The fighter may add one quarter his class level (round down) to attempts to Bull rush, Sunder, Overrun, Disarm, Grapple or Trip. Perfected: The fighter must choose three of the manoeuvres. To these he adds half his class level (round down) instead of a quarter to said attempts. Feinter: As suggested by the title, this fighter makes good use of the Feint manoeuvre. Lesser: The fighter may add half his class level (round down) as a bonus on feint rolls. Perfected: The feinter can feint as a move action, as if he had the Improved Feint feat. If he has the feat, he may now feint as a swift action. The Weapon Master: The fighter who chooses to master one single weapon, is the weapon master. Lesser: Any bonus to attack rolls given by the Fighter’s Favoured Weapon ability is doubled. Perfected: At 13th level, the critical range of the Favoured Weapon is increased by 2 (applied after the Improved Critical feat). Master of Weapons: The exact opposite of the weapon master is the master of weapons, who seeks to master every weapon there is. Lesser: The fighter gains proficiency with all exotic weapons. Perfected: The master of weapons treats every weapon he is proficient with as a Favoured Weapon. Kung fu artist: This fighter resembles a monk in his fighting style, but lacks the monks spiritual abilities. He makes up for that however, with his superior skills. Lesser: For the purpose of unarmed damage, the fighter counts as a monk of half his level (round down). This does not count as a Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Perfected: If fighting unarmoured, the fighter gains a bonus to armour class equal to (wis modifier + half class level (round down)) Strength of the Mountain: The dwarfs have developed a very own style of fighting, suiting their racial abilities. This art is restricted to dwarfen fighters. Lesser: The dwarfs racial save bonuses against spells and poisons increase by 1. Perfected: The dwarf may add his constitution modifier to Armour class and reflex saves, instead of dexterity. Hidden Sword: The hidden sword is a backstabbing, sneaking warrior, an opportunist without match. Lesser: The fighter gains +1d6 sneak attack damage per six levels of fighter (i.e. 2d6 at level 12 etc.) Perfected: The fighter now gains a quarter of his level (round down) number of d6 as sneak attack damage. This does not stack with the one d6 from the lesser ability. Dog of war: The dog of war is a warrior, who is seemingly impossible to kill. Lesser: The dog gains the uncanny dodge feature (for more information, barbarian class feature). Perfected: The benefits of Evasion and Mettle are contributed to the dog of war. Ambidextrous fighter: An ambidextrous fighter uses two weapon with little to no difficulty. Lesser: The penalty for fighting with two weapons is lowered by 1. Perfected: The penalty for two weapons is decreased by an additional 1, and if wielding a Favoured Weapon in each hand, the fighter gains +2 dodge bonus to armour class.
Seerow 02-17-07, 10:58 AM	...please tell me that's a joke? Weapon Master: +10 to hit, +38 to damage? Plus intelligence of course. I could say similar things about any of the specialties, but that one sticks out. Not only is it broken in the one specialized sense (the sense of 'lol damage') but it actually INCREASES the Fighter's problem of not enough generalization, and forces EVERY Fighter to have a souped up version of weapon specialization.
kozoras 02-17-07, 12:50 PM	When i said that the fighter has a low damage output i should have added compared to other classes. Generally speakin' the fighter has only a good damage output when wielding 2handed weapons. So the fighter should get at lvl 10 something like 1/2 his class level as a bonus to any damage roll and a full that number at lvl 20.Suddenly fighter 20 is not that useless!
Prime32 02-17-07, 02:58 PM	What about this? 1 Bonus feat 2 Bonus feat 3 Combat stance +1, Damage stance 4 Bonus feat 5 Confirmation stance 6 Bonus feat 7 Combat stance +2 8 Bonus feat 9 Attack stance 10 Bonus feat 11 Combat stance +3 12 Bonus feat 13 Dodge stance 14 Bonus feat 15 Combat stance +4 16 Bonus feat 17 Combine stances 18 Bonus feat 19 Combat stance +5 20 Bonus feat Combat Stance (Ex): At 3rd level, a fighter may enter a special stance to gain combat bonuses. While in a combat stance, he gains a +1 bonus on damage rolls but reduces his speed by 5 feet. This bonus increases by 1 at 7th level and every 4 levels thereafter. Entering, leaving, or changing stance is a move action. Confirmation Stance: At 5th level, a fighter may apply double the normal bonus from his combat stance to rolls made to confirm a critical hit instead of damage rolls. Attack Stance: At 9th level, a fighter may apply the bonus from his combat stance to attack rolls instead of damage rolls. Dodge Stance: At 13th level, a fighter may apply the bonus from his combat stance as a dodge bonus to AC instead of a bonus to damage rolls. Combine Stances: At 17th level, a fighter may gain the benefits of two stances simultaneously. The bonuses from the combination stance are reduced by 1. Dashing Stance [General, Fighter] Prerequisites: Combat stance +1 Benefit: While in a combat stance, your speed is not reduced. Normal: While in a stance, your speed is reduced by 5 ft. Flowing Stance [General, Fighter] Prerequisites: Combat stance +2 Benefit: You may enter, leave, or change stance as a swift action. Normal: Entering, leaving, or changing stance is a move action. Stance Focus [General, Fighter] Prerequisites: Combat stance +3 Benefit: Select one stance you possess. The bonus from that stance is increased by 1. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time, it applies to a different stance. Stance Master [General, Fighter] Prerequisites: Combine stances Benefit: When you combine stances, both stances provide their full bonuses. Normal: When stances are combined, their bonuses are reduced by 1. Epic Combine Stance [Epic, Fighter] Prerequisites: Combat stance +6, Combine stances Benefit: You may gain the benefits of three stances with your combine stances ability Normal: You may combine only two stances at a time.
Seerow 02-17-07, 07:45 PM	When i said that the fighter has a low damage output i should have added compared to other classes. Generally speakin' the fighter has only a good damage output when wielding 2handed weapons. So the fighter should get at lvl 10 something like 1/2 his class level as a bonus to any damage roll and a full that number at lvl 20.Suddenly fighter 20 is not that useless! No. Just no. The Fighter's problem is NOT a lack of damage. He seriously DOES beat any straight class at it, INCLUDING the Barbarian, past level 4, maybe 8. Giving him a random bonus on top of that solves no problems for the fighter. Makes him no less useless. Just makes sure what he hits dies -when he gets a chance to hit-
Adolfo_Mondschein 02-17-07, 08:38 PM	The Fighter's problem is NOT a lack of damage. He seriously DOES beat any straight class at it, INCLUDING the Barbarian, past level 4, maybe 8. How so? I'd like a good example. Usually, with the same or less effort, you can make a spellcaster that deals out a lot more damage, often as a mere touch attack... You could power attack, but then you just have a hard time connecting any hits unless your fighting weaker foes, which again the spellcasters can take out with a simple wave of their hand... The barbarian can make up for his loss to hit with Power Attack using his Rage, and don't even get me started on Frenzied Beserker.... and then theirs Wilders... *shiver*
Seerow 02-17-07, 08:45 PM	How is the spellcaster dealing more damage? Most damage dealing spells suck, and to dish out more than the Fighter, he has to dip into metamagics, and the various associated abuses. For a typical wizard just blasting normally, he does less damage than the Fighter attacking normally. When they both optimize fully, the Wizard wins out by a margin, but both are doing way more overkill than necessary.
Cael 02-17-07, 10:51 PM	How is the spellcaster dealing more damage? Most damage dealing spells suck, and to dish out more than the Fighter, he has to dip into metamagics, and the various associated abuses. For a typical wizard just blasting normally, he does less damage than the Fighter attacking normally. When they both optimize fully, the Wizard wins out by a margin, but both are doing way more overkill than necessary. Eh? Can a Fighter do enough damage to kill up to 20 enemies in one round (each trying to get past a DC23 Fort save minimum, DC 30+ if you really want to push it).
Seerow 02-17-07, 10:54 PM	20? Probably not. Not without a lot of enemies grouped together very closely. But then, the Wizard couldn't get a whole lot grouped together either. Also note that I was comparing directly to the Wizard's DAMAGE DEALING spells, not his save or dies. So forget wail of the banshee, or weird, or whatever save or die you were thinking of (Im assuming Wail of the Banshee) and instead look at a Fighter compared to Meteor Swarm, or whatever damage dealing magic the Wizard is using. And if the Wizard busts out metamagiced scorching rays, the Fighter busts out ubercharging for tens of thousands of damage.
Leress 02-17-07, 11:30 PM	Isn't the main problem with the fighter that its only class feature is that it only gets bonus feats. Since there is the fundamental flaw with feats because they don't scale. So I think the changes first need to be made to the feats themselves. Throwing more feats at the class won't really help unless you do something to fix the feats. The Failure of Feats "How about instead of being able to travel anywhere in the multiverse, transform yourself into anything you can think of, stop time, and slay everyone you can see, we just give a nice +1 to hit with your secondary weapon? Deal?" Feats were an interesting idea when they were ported to 3rd edition D&D. But let's face it; they don't go nearly far enough. Feats were made extremely conservative in their effects on the game because the authors didn't want to offend people with too radical a change. Well, now we've had third edition for 6 years, and we're offended. Feats are an interesting and tangible way to get unique abilities onto a character, but they have fallen prey to two key fallacies that has ended up turning the entire concept to ashes in our mouths. The first is the idea that if you think of something kind of cool for a character to do, you should make it a feat. That sounds compelling, but you only get 7 feats in your whole life. If you have to spend a feat for every cool thing you ever do, you're not going to do very many cool things in the approximately 260 encounters you'll have on your way from 1st to 20th level. The second is the idea that a feat should be equivalent to a cantrip or two. This one is even less excusable, and just makes us cry. A +1 bonus is something that you seriously might forget that you even have. Having one more +1 bonus doesn't make your character unique, it makes you a sucker for spending one of the half dozen feats you'll ever see on a bonus the other players won't even mention when discussing your character. We all understand this problem, what do we do about it? Well, for starters, Feats have to do more things. Many characters are 5th level or so and they only have 2 feats. Those feats should describe their character in a much more salient way than "I'm no worse shooting into melee than I am shooting at people with cover that isn't my friends." This was begun with the tactical feats, but it didn't go far enough. It's not enough to add additional feats that do something halfway interesting for high level characters to have – we actually have to replace the stupid one dimensional feats in the PHB with feats that rational people would care about in any way. Spending a single feat should be enough to make you a "sniper character" because for a substantial portion of your life you only get one feat. Secondly, we have to clear away feats that don't provide numeric bonuses large enough to care about. The minimum bonus you'll ever notice is +3, because that's actually larger than the difference between having rolled well and having rolled poorly on your starting stats. Numeric bonuses smaller than that are actually insulting and need to be removed from the feats altogether. 3.5 Skill Focus was a nice start, but that's all it was – a start. Furthermore, the fundamental structure of feats has been a disaster. The system of prerequisites often ensures that characters won't get an ability before it would be level appropriate for them to do so, but actually does nothing to ensure that such characters are in fact getting level appropriate abilities. Indeed, if a 12th level character decides that they want to pursue a career in shooting people in the face, they have to start all over gaining an ability that is supposed to be level appropriate for a 1st level character. Meanwhile, when a wizard of 12th level decides to pursue some new direction in spellcasting – he learns a new 6th level spell right off – and gets an ability that's level appropriate for a 12th level character. The class is also really laking in skills, their skill list doesn't really say masters of combat. Simple patches won't really fix the problem, since everything is sorta connected, the Fighter is not independent of the system.
Cael 02-17-07, 11:33 PM	20? Probably not. Not without a lot of enemies grouped together very closely. But then, the Wizard couldn't get a whole lot grouped together either. Also note that I was comparing directly to the Wizard's DAMAGE DEALING spells, not his save or dies. So forget wail of the banshee, or weird, or whatever save or die you were thinking of (Im assuming Wail of the Banshee) and instead look at a Fighter compared to Meteor Swarm, or whatever damage dealing magic the Wizard is using. And if the Wizard busts out metamagiced scorching rays, the Fighter busts out ubercharging for tens of thousands of damage. Dead is dead. Doesn't matter if you turn him to mist with ten gazillion damage or just nail him with a save or die. Total hp removed from the enemy's side is still the same.
Seerow 02-17-07, 11:37 PM	Dead is dead. Doesn't matter if you turn him to mist with ten gazillion damage or just nail him with a save or die. Total hp removed from the enemy's side is still the same. It may have the same end result, but they're still distinctly different things. C'mon you know me better than to think I'm arguing the Fighter is a great class. I'm claiming that his DAMAGE isn't what's lacking. I know you're desperate to prove any point against pro-fighters, but please don't distort the argument of someone who agrees with you to prove a point nobody is making. Thanks.
Cael 02-17-07, 11:53 PM	It may have the same end result, but they're still distinctly different things. C'mon you know me better than to think I'm arguing the Fighter is a great class. I'm claiming that his DAMAGE isn't what's lacking. I know you're desperate to prove any point against pro-fighters, but please don't distort the argument of someone who agrees with you to prove a point nobody is making. Thanks. No, you are not getting it. The point I am making is that damage is not just the numbers at the end of your dice roll. I am trying advocate a more holistic view of damage. Let me put it this way: You have 6 monsters, each with, say 500 hp. Now, you can, as a Fighter destroy maybe 4 of them a round, netting you 2000 points of damage. Any extra is overkill and thus useless. A wizard can cast a save or die at such high DCs that it is almost impossible to the monsters to save. Say 1 saves out of that 6, that is still 2500 points of "damage", in effect. It doesn't really matter if it is "real" damage or "virtual" damage. The end result is the removal of x number of hps from the enemy's pool of hp drones. In this matter, the Sorching Ray caster is still superior to the uber charger, because the uber charger's damage ends when its target's hp ends. The Scorcher can target multiple monsters, thus multiplying the number of hp damage created. What I am saying is that damage should not be looked at at the end of your dice rolls for damage, but at the perspective of how many you actually remove from the enemy's pool of hp. Are you getting what I am saying here?
Seerow 02-18-07, 12:02 AM	No, you are not getting it. The point I am making is that damage is not just the numbers at the end of your dice roll. I am trying advocate a more holistic view of damage. Let me put it this way: You have 6 monsters, each with, say 500 hp. Now, you can, as a Fighter destroy maybe 4 of them a round, netting you 2000 points of damage. Any extra is overkill and thus useless. A wizard can cast a save or die at such high DCs that it is almost impossible to the monsters to save. Say 1 saves out of that 6, that is still 2500 points of "damage", in effect. It doesn't really matter if it is "real" damage or "virtual" damage. The end result is the removal of x number of hps from the enemy's pool of hp drones. In this matter, the Sorching Ray caster is still superior to the uber charger, because the uber charger's damage ends when its target's hp ends. The Scorcher can target multiple monsters, thus multiplying the number of hp damage created. What I am saying is that damage should not be looked at at the end of your dice rolls for damage, but at the perspective of how many you actually remove from the enemy's pool of hp. Are you getting what I am saying here? Yes. I get what you're saying here. You're not getting what I'M saying here. I KNOW that Save or Dies are more effective than the Fighter. I KNOW that they're going to cause the equivalent of more HP damage. We all KNOW that save or dies rock. That's not the point. I'm comparing to the spells that deal DIRECT DAMAGE, the same way the Fighter has to do it. Yes the caster has other options, better options. And yes they out do the fighter. That isn't the ****ing point. People arguing the Fighter doesn't do enough damage compared to the caster DON'T THINK THE SAME WAY WE DO. If they did, they'd be smart enough not to claim that. So instead, I make the challenge to prove the Wizard does more damage using ACTUAL DAMAGE rather than using an I-Win Spell. Why? Because the idiots who claim the Wizard does lots of damage are the same ones who think Fireball is the best 3rd level spell ever. Look back to where this discussion started, before you intruded trying to bring other stuff into it. It started with a guy proposing the Fighter should get a +40 bonus to damage! His justification was that a Wizard outdamages the Fighter. Now if he thought along the same lines as you, and meant save or dies, he'd be giving the Fighter something useful. Like the ability to coup-de-grace an opponent who's prone or pinned rather than helpless. Or just some generic save or die ability. Or some sort of wide spread ability. (Like the Fighter slashes his sword and knocks people down 20 feet away killing them.) But no. He gave a bonus to damage. Which means he thinks the Wizard wins IN TERMS OF STRAIGHT DAMAGE rather than effective damage. THAT is the argument I was making. So again, if you're not going to argue THOSE TERMS then please stop trying to use my posts to prove your point. Thank you.
Cael 02-18-07, 12:41 AM	Yes. I get what you're saying here. You're not getting what I'M saying here. I KNOW that Save or Dies are more effective than the Fighter. I KNOW that they're going to cause the equivalent of more HP damage. We all KNOW that save or dies rock. That's not the point. I'm comparing to the spells that deal DIRECT DAMAGE, the same way the Fighter has to do it. Yes the caster has other options, better options. And yes they out do the fighter. That isn't the ****ing point. People arguing the Fighter doesn't do enough damage compared to the caster DON'T THINK THE SAME WAY WE DO. If they did, they'd be smart enough not to claim that. So instead, I make the challenge to prove the Wizard does more damage using ACTUAL DAMAGE rather than using an I-Win Spell. Why? Because the idiots who claim the Wizard does lots of damage are the same ones who think Fireball is the best 3rd level spell ever. Look back to where this discussion started, before you intruded trying to bring other stuff into it. It started with a guy proposing the Fighter should get a +40 bonus to damage! His justification was that a Wizard outdamages the Fighter. Now if he thought along the same lines as you, and meant save or dies, he'd be giving the Fighter something useful. Like the ability to coup-de-grace an opponent who's prone or pinned rather than helpless. Or just some generic save or die ability. Or some sort of wide spread ability. (Like the Fighter slashes his sword and knocks people down 20 feet away killing them.) But no. He gave a bonus to damage. Which means he thinks the Wizard wins IN TERMS OF STRAIGHT DAMAGE rather than effective damage. THAT is the argument I was making. So again, if you're not going to argue THOSE TERMS then please stop trying to use my posts to prove your point. Thank you. Let him give the Fighter +40 damage. It doesn't matter. Let him make the Fighter into a hotwitzer. Then, introduce flies. The guy is being an idiot. You know that, I know that. So why are you indulging him? You know he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. *You* should be the one bringing up the holistic view of damage, not pandering to his whims. You fight a battle on your opponent's terms, you will lose. It is as simple as that. Don't fight on his terms. Let him give the Fighter +10 gazillion damage. It doesn't matter because that Fighter will be doing nothing but making raspberry jam, while he in turn is being made into raspberry jam.
TheOinodaemon 02-19-07, 04:52 AM	Feats that scale with level. Nothing suggested could be beyond the range of a fighter with enough levels and feats to meet the prerequisites (aside from the obviously ridiculous suggestions). Also more skill points and uses for some skills in combat. encourage people to play a smart fighter.
Aage 02-19-07, 04:57 AM	Also more skill points and uses for some skills in combat. encourage people to play a smart fighter. Yes, some skills added to list of class skills also... some skill tricks (complete scoundrel) give uses for skills in combat...
Rhonin the Big 02-19-07, 11:47 AM	Problems with the fighter: 1) Without useful skills and a shred of versitility the fighter is unable to handle the perils of adventure. 2) The fighter is the master of esoteric combat styles, but has difficulty meeting prereqs and doesnt count his full class level towards Initiator level. My fix helps with all of that and more: Here it is (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=794279)
ragoftag 02-22-07, 06:39 PM	Didn't we do this last month? I seem to remember suggesting scaling feats by group (Shifter feats as model).
Huzzah! 02-22-07, 07:20 PM	My group always preferred the Armsman class from WoT as opposed to the Fighter. 4 skill points/level, Listen and Spot added to class list, and exclusive ability to add AC to Def.
Prismatic_Bard 02-22-07, 08:07 PM	Well, I guess I can try my hand at this a little, seeing as how enough people responded to make a really bad idea seem irrelevant :P. I've always seen the fighter as a kind of leader or general. In fact, my DM happens to have his fighters running armies (and then he has the occasional wandering swordmaster, but those are rare). The fighter also holds a place as the steriotypical (that's not meant in a bad way) head of the party, and normally leads point in many formations. Lets face it, who doesn't want meat-shield out front? :D But in version 3.0 (sorry, I don't have 3.5, but there seems to be the same complaints...) he seems to lack anything that would qualify him as an exceptional leader, especially in the face of the paladin and... others... I'm sorry, I only have the PH and a rudimentary knowledge of the game in general, so I'm pulling this straight off the top of my head. It might suck. Really badly. I think that the fighter should be able to lead large numbers of troops as a class ability, provided he meets certian requirements such as being in a position of power authorizing the use of armies. This wouldn't be of much use in, say, a narrow, dank dungeon, but I think a DM can work their way around that and make it useful, if they wanted to. Of course, there would also be people who would rather play the fighter as the weaponmaster style, so I'll include a little of that, too. Of course, there might be other styles, but I'm just saying how I would change the fighter class. Dang, I got distracted again :P. At 5th level, I would give the fighter one of 5 choices as a class ability, similar to how the thief can choose special abilities at 10th level: Leadership (I know this is a feat already, so I'll use that version), Squad Command, Battle Cry (Is this a feat, too? Oh well), Weapon Specialization (If they qualify for it, they can have it :)), or one extra bonus fighter feat. I'll explain what some of the ones I made up do: Squad Command: I know, not the coolest name, but I had to think of something ;). The fighter can have two extra hirelings, paid for by whoever is in charge of the fighter (say, a king sending the party on an adventure might decide to grant him some extra aid). If the fighter is the king or ruling lord, then he attracts these extra NPCs as henchmen, and does not need to pay for them. He still needs to treat them right, though :). Of course this may have to be role-played. Battle Cry: Is this a feat? I'm sorry, I'll just have to make something up. The fighter lets loose with a spectacular battle cry, inspiring his allies to victory, granting them a +2 to moral checks, a +1 to hit, +1 to damage, and... I think that's good enough. Oh, and a duration of 1 round per level (major 'doh' there) At level 9, the fighter can have another choice of 5 class abilities: Commander's Fame, Weapon Mastery 1, War Cry, any previous class ability choice, or 1 extra bonus fighter feat. Commander's Fame: The fighter has gained recognition as a great leader, and can inspire allies in battle with just his presence, granting anyone within 5 feet a +2 bonus to moral checks. Also, he can gain an additional 2 free soldiers from his benefactor, or if he's the one in charge, an additional 2 henchmen. That may sound like a little much, but if the party has a KING (or any such related ranking person) doing their fighting for them, it might make sense :). Weapon Mastery 1: Requires Weapon Specialization, and no, I didn't exactly think this one up, I'm just putting it in feat form. Unless it's already in feat form. Well, this adds a +1 to attack rolls, and another +1 to damage rolls. War Cry: I'm pretty sure this is already a feat. This one replaces Battle Cry and adds an additional +1 to attack rolls and +1 to damage rolls. The player can also use Battle Cry instead, if they want to. At level 12, our fighter friend gets another one of 5 choices: General's Presence, Weapon Mastery 2, any previous class ability, any bonus fighter feat, or any feat that they meet the prerequisits for. General's Presence: The fighter is famous for his many battles and fills those who behold him with awe. Now anyone within 10 feet may recieve the +2 bonus to moral checks, and recieves an additional 2 hirelings from his benefactor (or henchmen for himself... oh wait. I just realized that I've been using the male versions of pronouns a lot. Is that bad?) Also, he adds a +1 circumstance bonus to skills used within 5 feet of him (as applicable... DM call.) Weapon Mastery 2: An extra +1 to attack and damage rolls. Maybe this idea has already been used. And etc., a constant progression. Every four levels, they get either an upgraded version of General's Presence (I'm running out of ideas :weep:), a better Weapon Mastery (It's getting monotonous.), another feat, or a previous class ability. I just hope this is origional. In retrospect, I probably should have looked at everyone else's contributions, but after all this work...
hreslingozer 02-22-07, 08:20 PM	Its seems you have just described a Marshall, which is a leader. Like most military units, a fighter is usually following a leader and doing the dirty work. Leaders usually stay back in the ranks. That doesn't mean that a fighter with experience doesn't often become a leader; but most fighters are content to be of a lower rank, slugging it out on a battlefield. My beef with the fighter is at high levels they become increasingly outdistanced by the versatility and power of the other classes. Without magic items, a fighter is much lower in terms of power. Hence the length of this thread. Adding additional class skills and scaling feats seems to be the best solution so far, but it still doesn't stop the enchanter from dominating the fighter with ease at high level. Hmmm....