"Hide in plain sight"-confusing rules in ToM: hiding in 'bright light' and darkvision [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Hide in plain sight"-confusing rules in ToM: hiding in 'bright light' and darkvision [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nicholas the Paladin
07-25-07, 02:55 AM Hi Guys,

HiPS has been discussed many time and i thought that i understood it correctly, but now somethings come up that i find very confusing.

It's some parts from the Tome of magic:
- at page 157 it says:
" in an area of bright light, all creatures can see clearly. A creature can't use Hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible, has cover or has the hide in plain sight ability."

that surprised me.....

- and further at that page:
"characters who have darkvision can see lit areas normally as wel as dark areas within 60 ft. A character can't use Hide within 60 a characetr who has darkvision unless it is invisible, has cover or has the hide in plain sight ability."

- But further at page page 161, HiPS is explained:
" HiPS (Ex): use the hide skill even while being observed (exept in daylight, in the area of a'daylight' spell or similar effect)

This seems to contradict each other.

Can someone please explain?
Nicholas the Paladin
07-25-07, 09:18 AM Anyone?

Can you Hide with HiPS.... when in 'bright light' ..or....within an opponents darkvision.
snakeman830
07-25-07, 10:31 AM There are many different forms of "Hide in Plain Sight". The most common form can be used whenever the character is within 10 feet of a shadow that isn't their own. Daylight creates shadows, so that isn't a problem.

Another variety is the ranger's HiPS, which can be used when in a natural setting, regardless of lighting.

The variety you mentioned isn't useable in bright sunlight.

However, never did I say that Darkvision prevented them from hiding. It doesn't.
Archtyrant Terevoth
07-25-07, 01:00 PM HiPS is one of the most poorly written abilities out there. First, as stated before, there are several varieties of the ability, one for the ranger and one for the assassin/shadowdancer.

I'm not sure if any other classes get it.

The shadowdancer/assassin wording is the worst of all. As there is no formal definition for "shadow". I prefer to call shadows "shadowy concealment", since it's a game term. If you try to use the conventional use of shadow, you'll find the ability is such an adjudication nightmare, that you're best off just removing the entire "within 10 ft of shadow" clause entirely.

Apparently you can use the dancer's HiPS to evade a creature with darkvision as the shadow requirement isn't actually hiding in shadows, but more of a prerequisite to use the ability. You just need a square with shadowy concealment within 10 ft of you, you don't actually have to have that concealment yourself. So darkvision isn't useful. Daylight or something else that destroys the concealment in the square will help however, because it prevents you from achieving the prerequisite of the ability.

So you must physically remove the darkness, not merely be able to see through it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 07-25-07, 02:55 AM	Hi Guys, HiPS has been discussed many time and i thought that i understood it correctly, but now somethings come up that i find very confusing. It's some parts from the Tome of magic: - at page 157 it says: " in an area of bright light, all creatures can see clearly. A creature can't use Hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible, has cover or has the hide in plain sight ability." that surprised me..... - and further at that page: "characters who have darkvision can see lit areas normally as wel as dark areas within 60 ft. A character can't use Hide within 60 a characetr who has darkvision unless it is invisible, has cover or has the hide in plain sight ability." - But further at page page 161, HiPS is explained: " HiPS (Ex): use the hide skill even while being observed (exept in daylight, in the area of a'daylight' spell or similar effect) This seems to contradict each other. Can someone please explain?
Nicholas the Paladin 07-25-07, 09:18 AM	Anyone? Can you Hide with HiPS.... when in 'bright light' ..or....within an opponents darkvision.
snakeman830 07-25-07, 10:31 AM	There are many different forms of "Hide in Plain Sight". The most common form can be used whenever the character is within 10 feet of a shadow that isn't their own. Daylight creates shadows, so that isn't a problem. Another variety is the ranger's HiPS, which can be used when in a natural setting, regardless of lighting. The variety you mentioned isn't useable in bright sunlight. However, never did I say that Darkvision prevented them from hiding. It doesn't.
Archtyrant Terevoth 07-25-07, 01:00 PM	HiPS is one of the most poorly written abilities out there. First, as stated before, there are several varieties of the ability, one for the ranger and one for the assassin/shadowdancer. I'm not sure if any other classes get it. The shadowdancer/assassin wording is the worst of all. As there is no formal definition for "shadow". I prefer to call shadows "shadowy concealment", since it's a game term. If you try to use the conventional use of shadow, you'll find the ability is such an adjudication nightmare, that you're best off just removing the entire "within 10 ft of shadow" clause entirely. Apparently you can use the dancer's HiPS to evade a creature with darkvision as the shadow requirement isn't actually hiding in shadows, but more of a prerequisite to use the ability. You just need a square with shadowy concealment within 10 ft of you, you don't actually have to have that concealment yourself. So darkvision isn't useful. Daylight or something else that destroys the concealment in the square will help however, because it prevents you from achieving the prerequisite of the ability. So you must physically remove the darkness, not merely be able to see through it.