"Incarnate with Class" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Incarnate with Class" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Griff_Goodbeard
01-24-06, 11:27 AM Reading Skip's Incarnate with Class (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060124a) article today, I couldn't help but feel a bit dissapointed. The article could have been a great opportunity to spotlight an Incarnates strengths and clear up misconceptions, instead I felt the tone of the article seemed to supported the notion that incarnates a more akin to "full-casters" than anything else. In my experience this just isn't true. I thought the advise was far to generic to be of any real help.

The more I sit here and think about it, I guess the article will probably serve it's purpose which is getting more people interested in incarnum classes (which I don't think is a bad thing. ;) )

I guess I just wish it had contained better advise for people who already own MoI and want to make "classy" characters.

I saw that after the horrible "Warlock with Class" article someone from the boards here stepped up and did it the right way. Maybe I should just put my money where my mouth is and put my own up here. Ah well, something else to add to the "to do list". :D
jpat93
01-24-06, 11:35 AM I read this this morning, too, and was also lukewarm about it. I mean, there's nothing wrong exactly with it, but it's not much beyond what one could or would get from reading the class description itself. That may be all right as a general introduction, but ... well, actually, I don't think it is, really, because there's really very little flavor here at all, or a real reaon to take this class, or much background on what incarnum and soulmelds are. Rattling off soulmelds isn't going to help those without the book, really.

In other words, it's probably old news to the converted and unappealing and/or baffling to the unconverted.

The writer's in a tough (chakra?) bind here, though, because the system is different enough that if you don't sort of know how it works already, you're going to need a tutorial on it anyway, which is not the purpose of these articles per se. Maybe a link back to the designer interview (?) might help.
Eital
01-24-06, 12:01 PM I've found all the "[class] with class" articles a bit disapointing... to me, they are too simply, and seem a little "copy-pasted" one from the other.
On the other hand, a friend of mine who has just began to play a few months ago have found them extremely useful, so i guess they are meant for a less experiencied type of players.
Todd
01-24-06, 01:21 PM The problem is that the articles don't always have good advice. This one is pretty typical in that regard.

For instance lots of words devoted to the d6 HP being "Fairly Low" ... but totally ignoring that Con is the most important stat for the class which somewhat balances this.

Highlighting "Low Skill Points" and "Narrow Skill Selection" as a weaknesses ... but ignoring all the skill boosts possible via Soulmelds which enable even an unskilled Incarnate to act as a skilled trapfinder or whatnot.

Poor article.
fenrishero
01-24-06, 02:49 PM The problem is that the Incarnate is really just not that great a class. It's main feature (Soulmelds which boost skills) is offset by one of it's main weaknesses (Bad skill points). It's got an absolutely terrible combat ability, which offsets a lot of the combat oriented soulmelds. Incarnum radiance is woefully underpowered, especially later on when the cleric or bard can do everything radiance can do. It's got only a couple of offensive soulmelds, and those are capped at ludicrously low levels due to the essentia cap.

So, no offense, no defense, and limited out of combat use due to low skill points and bizarrely combat oriented class features. So, what does an incarnate do? Passes a couple of skill checks and hides in a corner during combat. I guess you can also make the case that it can fill in for another skill heavy class in a pinch, but it's not a long term replacement for having a bard or a rogue. Just RP-fodder, mostly.
Todd
01-24-06, 03:10 PM fenrishero it is true that the Incarnate is not a perfect class & it has some clunky shortcomings ... but an Incarnate can be a very viable replacement for a rogue and a reasonable one for a bard. Evil Incarnates have the ability to be monsters in melee with huge bonuses to hit and damage. There are some very good defensive soulmelds & the offensive ones are not that bad either.

I go into more detail in my "Incarnates by the numbers" post linked above but essentially an Incarnate needs, at best, only 7 to 9 ranks in a few skills to emulate a Rogue at 20th level ... and in the level 1-6 range they can actually get better bonuses to a selection of skills than a rogue can. After 4th level they can even have Trapfinding.
fenrishero
01-24-06, 03:40 PM The problem when trying to turn a incarnate into another class is the fact that chakra binds replace magic equipment, at least as far as I remember it. A lot of the uber bonuses from incarnum gear only occur when you chakra bind them. When you start factoring the bonuses a rogue gets from a pair of gloves of dexterity or a fighter gets from a girdle of giant strength or a good melee weapon with a damage booster, the gap re-opens, and when you start factoring in feats like power attack, two weapon fighting and improved critical, the gap becomes even bigger. This isn't as big a factor early on, when the versatility factor makes an incarnate way more useful then some other classes, but by having to invest feats in incarnum feats to grab extra essentia and have the option to improve other feats, you're usually spending two feats to grab and specialize in a single ability, you defeat the idea of being a jack of all trades.
Todd
01-24-06, 04:14 PM Chakra binds are *very* important for the totemist.

Not nearly as much so for the Incanate. To emulate a rogue the Incarnate would have to bind *one* soulmeld - the Theft Gloves. All others could be shaped and not bound. And for the record the soulmeld bonuses will stack with most item bonuses so an Incarnate can get the same bang from most gear that a rouge could.

A melee Incarnate build would be taking the same feats as a fighter ... though less of them to be sure. ;) In fact, IMO, a Law or Evil Incarnate would benefit *more* from Power Attack + Leap Attack than most fighters.

I don't think that you will see many battlefield control Incarnates ... but I would fear a charging Evil Incarnate about the same as I would a charging Barbarian. Evil Incarnates get a large number of stacking bonuses from melds that don't need to be bound.

The Incarnate, oddly enough, benefits from the "Incarnum" feats less than most non-MoI classes, though to maximize the soulmelds it does help to take two or three of the new general feats in the book ... however these will not be mandatory for all character builds by any means.
TalonofTiamat
01-24-06, 04:50 PM I made a 15th level evil incarnate awhile ago. I was shocked at how much damage it could do. I've never made a character that could do that much damage to any opponent, and I've made plenty of high level characters.
Roatso
01-24-06, 04:56 PM Firstly, I have to admit my understanding of the Incarnum book is at the infant stage (Only got it a few days ago) but I think this article doesn't really explore the potential of this class.

With the totemist it's pretty obvious you can make an effective melee machine... the Incarnate seems to be a class that requires some thought and finese.

The class only seems to have 3 weaknesses in my opinion, BAB, HP and skills.

BAB is a non issue... one each skillful weapon takes care of that.
HP are also a non-issue... with the Con you'll have you'll have plenty.. and if that's not enough your soulmelds can increase it even more
Skill... no big deal.. I'm sure others have said it, but the class gets enough skill boosting melds to cover almost everything.

I think the only real problem with the class is the fact you'll have to think to use it. It's definately a tactical character.

I've only just started figuring out things to do with it, and the class seems to be a catch all... For example you can make a rogue (minus sneak attack) pretty easy.. and you could make a nasty archer with Airstep Sandles, Sighting Gloves and a Wind Cloak... throw on a Spellward shirt and you'd be hard to touch...
Milo HoBo
01-24-06, 07:29 PM I have to disagree Roatso. There is a fourth major disadvantage to the incarnate (I know, I've played one). His split stat requirement coupled with the above stated nearly devastates his potential. Also, just a quirk of the class, there is very little focus. Not much healing (unless you multi-class, healing soul just doesn't cut it). Very little blasting if you are a good incarnate. Also, you can't buff other people well, only yourself. And you aren't made for melee.

I've heard that lawful, chaotic, and evil are much better; however, in DnD good is almost always stronger. Evil, is usually just craftier. So, avoid playing good incarnates if you can. WotC isn't known for releasing fixes to base classes, so don't expect it anytime soon.

However, it is a beutiful system, much better balanced than arcane or divine magic. A few more soulmelds and support could make it iconic, like psionics (without the head ache of earlier editions). It has a versitility that the invoking (warlock) system couldn't accomplish without use magic devise. It also brings something to the table for everyone (maybe spending too much space for such).

Good gaming.
Todd
01-24-06, 08:01 PM I agree that the Wis / Con split isn’t good. IMO Incarnate should have been just like the Soulborn & Totemist with just pure Con as the meldshaping stat.

With that said how many Incarnate soulmelds have saves? Not many. Dissolving Spittle has no save. Lightning Gauntlets have no save. Only the stunning feature of the Incarnate Weapon, some of the Necrocarnum melds, & the Mantle of Flame when used as an attack really come to mind. Given this I’ve come to the conclusion that you can safely dump Wis in a lot of Incarnate builds.

I’ve also started to think that the designers may have nerfed the good Incarnate a bit by design ... assuming that Vow of Poverty would be used with them in many cases.
Milo HoBo
01-24-06, 08:13 PM Yeah, I knew about the few saves bit. But a pre-emptive strike against VoP? Ouch. I thought only munchins and a hand-full of role-players used that. They should fix VoP, not everything that comes after it.
Roatso
01-24-06, 08:27 PM I have to disagree Roatso. .

That's cool :)

Like I said, I'm still trying to get my mind around this system, so take this all as first impressions only.

So far all I can make of these classes is the Incarnate is a wannabe Outsider and the Totemist is variation on the Master of Many Forms (gaining abilities rather than forms)

The power of the Totemist is pretty obvious though... at the very least Incarnum classes would make excellent dips or build fillers in my opinion.

Hmmm... speaking of the MoMF... I wonder how well soul melds would work when wildshaped (or by extension polymorphed)
Sephiroth Do'Urden
01-24-06, 08:57 PM I think that Skip misspoke (Misstyped :confused: ) this morning. Look at this:

For example, if you're neutral good, your incarnum radiance power (which improves your Armor Class) pairs well with soulmelds such as bloodwar gauntlets, lightning gauntlets, or armguards of disruption

Nothing serious, but fun! :D

Todd and Everyone but mostly Todd: Thank you for all your good advice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Griff_Goodbeard 01-24-06, 11:27 AM	Reading Skip's Incarnate with Class (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060124a) article today, I couldn't help but feel a bit dissapointed. The article could have been a great opportunity to spotlight an Incarnates strengths and clear up misconceptions, instead I felt the tone of the article seemed to supported the notion that incarnates a more akin to "full-casters" than anything else. In my experience this just isn't true. I thought the advise was far to generic to be of any real help. The more I sit here and think about it, I guess the article will probably serve it's purpose which is getting more people interested in incarnum classes (which I don't think is a bad thing. ;) ) I guess I just wish it had contained better advise for people who already own MoI and want to make "classy" characters. I saw that after the horrible "Warlock with Class" article someone from the boards here stepped up and did it the right way. Maybe I should just put my money where my mouth is and put my own up here. Ah well, something else to add to the "to do list". :D
jpat93 01-24-06, 11:35 AM	I read this this morning, too, and was also lukewarm about it. I mean, there's nothing wrong exactly with it, but it's not much beyond what one could or would get from reading the class description itself. That may be all right as a general introduction, but ... well, actually, I don't think it is, really, because there's really very little flavor here at all, or a real reaon to take this class, or much background on what incarnum and soulmelds are. Rattling off soulmelds isn't going to help those without the book, really. In other words, it's probably old news to the converted and unappealing and/or baffling to the unconverted. The writer's in a tough (chakra?) bind here, though, because the system is different enough that if you don't sort of know how it works already, you're going to need a tutorial on it anyway, which is not the purpose of these articles per se. Maybe a link back to the designer interview (?) might help.
Eital 01-24-06, 12:01 PM	I've found all the "[class] with class" articles a bit disapointing... to me, they are too simply, and seem a little "copy-pasted" one from the other. On the other hand, a friend of mine who has just began to play a few months ago have found them extremely useful, so i guess they are meant for a less experiencied type of players.
Todd 01-24-06, 01:21 PM	The problem is that the articles don't always have good advice. This one is pretty typical in that regard. For instance lots of words devoted to the d6 HP being "Fairly Low" ... but totally ignoring that Con is the most important stat for the class which somewhat balances this. Highlighting "Low Skill Points" and "Narrow Skill Selection" as a weaknesses ... but ignoring all the skill boosts possible via Soulmelds which enable even an unskilled Incarnate to act as a skilled trapfinder or whatnot. Poor article.
fenrishero 01-24-06, 02:49 PM	The problem is that the Incarnate is really just not that great a class. It's main feature (Soulmelds which boost skills) is offset by one of it's main weaknesses (Bad skill points). It's got an absolutely terrible combat ability, which offsets a lot of the combat oriented soulmelds. Incarnum radiance is woefully underpowered, especially later on when the cleric or bard can do everything radiance can do. It's got only a couple of offensive soulmelds, and those are capped at ludicrously low levels due to the essentia cap. So, no offense, no defense, and limited out of combat use due to low skill points and bizarrely combat oriented class features. So, what does an incarnate do? Passes a couple of skill checks and hides in a corner during combat. I guess you can also make the case that it can fill in for another skill heavy class in a pinch, but it's not a long term replacement for having a bard or a rogue. Just RP-fodder, mostly.
Todd 01-24-06, 03:10 PM	fenrishero it is true that the Incarnate is not a perfect class & it has some clunky shortcomings ... but an Incarnate can be a very viable replacement for a rogue and a reasonable one for a bard. Evil Incarnates have the ability to be monsters in melee with huge bonuses to hit and damage. There are some very good defensive soulmelds & the offensive ones are not that bad either. I go into more detail in my "Incarnates by the numbers" post linked above but essentially an Incarnate needs, at best, only 7 to 9 ranks in a few skills to emulate a Rogue at 20th level ... and in the level 1-6 range they can actually get better bonuses to a selection of skills than a rogue can. After 4th level they can even have Trapfinding.
fenrishero 01-24-06, 03:40 PM	The problem when trying to turn a incarnate into another class is the fact that chakra binds replace magic equipment, at least as far as I remember it. A lot of the uber bonuses from incarnum gear only occur when you chakra bind them. When you start factoring the bonuses a rogue gets from a pair of gloves of dexterity or a fighter gets from a girdle of giant strength or a good melee weapon with a damage booster, the gap re-opens, and when you start factoring in feats like power attack, two weapon fighting and improved critical, the gap becomes even bigger. This isn't as big a factor early on, when the versatility factor makes an incarnate way more useful then some other classes, but by having to invest feats in incarnum feats to grab extra essentia and have the option to improve other feats, you're usually spending two feats to grab and specialize in a single ability, you defeat the idea of being a jack of all trades.
Todd 01-24-06, 04:14 PM	Chakra binds are very important for the totemist. Not nearly as much so for the Incanate. To emulate a rogue the Incarnate would have to bind one soulmeld - the Theft Gloves. All others could be shaped and not bound. And for the record the soulmeld bonuses will stack with most item bonuses so an Incarnate can get the same bang from most gear that a rouge could. A melee Incarnate build would be taking the same feats as a fighter ... though less of them to be sure. ;) In fact, IMO, a Law or Evil Incarnate would benefit more from Power Attack + Leap Attack than most fighters. I don't think that you will see many battlefield control Incarnates ... but I would fear a charging Evil Incarnate about the same as I would a charging Barbarian. Evil Incarnates get a large number of stacking bonuses from melds that don't need to be bound. The Incarnate, oddly enough, benefits from the "Incarnum" feats less than most non-MoI classes, though to maximize the soulmelds it does help to take two or three of the new general feats in the book ... however these will not be mandatory for all character builds by any means.
TalonofTiamat 01-24-06, 04:50 PM	I made a 15th level evil incarnate awhile ago. I was shocked at how much damage it could do. I've never made a character that could do that much damage to any opponent, and I've made plenty of high level characters.
Roatso 01-24-06, 04:56 PM	Firstly, I have to admit my understanding of the Incarnum book is at the infant stage (Only got it a few days ago) but I think this article doesn't really explore the potential of this class. With the totemist it's pretty obvious you can make an effective melee machine... the Incarnate seems to be a class that requires some thought and finese. The class only seems to have 3 weaknesses in my opinion, BAB, HP and skills. BAB is a non issue... one each skillful weapon takes care of that. HP are also a non-issue... with the Con you'll have you'll have plenty.. and if that's not enough your soulmelds can increase it even more Skill... no big deal.. I'm sure others have said it, but the class gets enough skill boosting melds to cover almost everything. I think the only real problem with the class is the fact you'll have to think to use it. It's definately a tactical character. I've only just started figuring out things to do with it, and the class seems to be a catch all... For example you can make a rogue (minus sneak attack) pretty easy.. and you could make a nasty archer with Airstep Sandles, Sighting Gloves and a Wind Cloak... throw on a Spellward shirt and you'd be hard to touch...
Milo HoBo 01-24-06, 07:29 PM	I have to disagree Roatso. There is a fourth major disadvantage to the incarnate (I know, I've played one). His split stat requirement coupled with the above stated nearly devastates his potential. Also, just a quirk of the class, there is very little focus. Not much healing (unless you multi-class, healing soul just doesn't cut it). Very little blasting if you are a good incarnate. Also, you can't buff other people well, only yourself. And you aren't made for melee. I've heard that lawful, chaotic, and evil are much better; however, in DnD good is almost always stronger. Evil, is usually just craftier. So, avoid playing good incarnates if you can. WotC isn't known for releasing fixes to base classes, so don't expect it anytime soon. However, it is a beutiful system, much better balanced than arcane or divine magic. A few more soulmelds and support could make it iconic, like psionics (without the head ache of earlier editions). It has a versitility that the invoking (warlock) system couldn't accomplish without use magic devise. It also brings something to the table for everyone (maybe spending too much space for such). Good gaming.
Todd 01-24-06, 08:01 PM	I agree that the Wis / Con split isn’t good. IMO Incarnate should have been just like the Soulborn & Totemist with just pure Con as the meldshaping stat. With that said how many Incarnate soulmelds have saves? Not many. Dissolving Spittle has no save. Lightning Gauntlets have no save. Only the stunning feature of the Incarnate Weapon, some of the Necrocarnum melds, & the Mantle of Flame when used as an attack really come to mind. Given this I’ve come to the conclusion that you can safely dump Wis in a lot of Incarnate builds. I’ve also started to think that the designers may have nerfed the good Incarnate a bit by design ... assuming that Vow of Poverty would be used with them in many cases.
Milo HoBo 01-24-06, 08:13 PM	Yeah, I knew about the few saves bit. But a pre-emptive strike against VoP? Ouch. I thought only munchins and a hand-full of role-players used that. They should fix VoP, not everything that comes after it.
Roatso 01-24-06, 08:27 PM	I have to disagree Roatso. . That's cool :) Like I said, I'm still trying to get my mind around this system, so take this all as first impressions only. So far all I can make of these classes is the Incarnate is a wannabe Outsider and the Totemist is variation on the Master of Many Forms (gaining abilities rather than forms) The power of the Totemist is pretty obvious though... at the very least Incarnum classes would make excellent dips or build fillers in my opinion. Hmmm... speaking of the MoMF... I wonder how well soul melds would work when wildshaped (or by extension polymorphed)
Sephiroth Do'Urden 01-24-06, 08:57 PM	I think that Skip misspoke (Misstyped :confused: ) this morning. Look at this: For example, if you're neutral good, your incarnum radiance power (which improves your Armor Class) pairs well with soulmelds such as bloodwar gauntlets, lightning gauntlets, or armguards of disruption Nothing serious, but fun! :D Todd and Everyone but mostly Todd: Thank you for all your good advice.