"Permanent" polymorph into a dragon increase CL? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Permanent" polymorph into a dragon increase CL? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TrackStar
07-01-05, 06:39 AM Does it? A player in one of the games I play is a wizard/fighter and has polymorphed himself into a green, then a red dragon. Supposedly this spell is permanent, atleast untill someone dispells it I think. Basically though, he gains enlarged size and a TON of ability improvements. All this at no cost?

If this is the case, why doesnt everyone just polymorph themselves into somthing epic?

If it does, I'm gonna show my dm, please provide sources though so I can proove it. :P
Norhg
07-01-05, 06:51 AM Something epic? You can't polymorph into anything with more hd than you have yourself. Though, many times it is advantageous to actually polymorph into something else. There is no Character Level changes whatsoever.
ĐēşţĩŊŷ
07-01-05, 06:55 AM Polymorph = 15 HD max or your own, whichever is lower.
Polymorph any object = It can duplicate the effect of Polymorph, disguise self or alter self.

Don't know where he found the über polymorph.
TrackStar
07-01-05, 06:58 AM Are there ANY negatives to this what so ever? Thats kind of rediculous that someone could perma polymorph into something and only gain massive stat/ability gains at the loss of... not being able to fit down a small corridor? :P

Whats to stop my whole party from wanting to polymorph into abunch of dragons at no loss, permanetly(save for dispell)?
TrackStar
07-01-05, 07:00 AM Polymorph = 15 HD max or your own, whichever is lower.
Polymorph any object = It can duplicate the effect of Polymorph, disguise self or alter self.

Don't know where he found the über polymorph.

Hmmm, I am pretty sure he polymorphed into a dragon type that had less HD than him. He is a lvl 16 character.
ĐēşţĩŊŷ
07-01-05, 07:13 AM Very weak dragons, a party of level 16 characters would finish you of in a single round.
You gain the physical abilities (str, dex, con) of the dragon, those are NOT added as a bonus. and something else, i'm to lazy to write it right now :P

Permanently? What kind of polymorph are you using, polymorph any object? if so i'd suggest you not to become a dragon permanently unless of course you've got yodas patient and are willing to wait a 1000 years for power.
Nyferto
07-01-05, 07:17 AM He can't make it permenant without Polymorph any object, he can't even do that if you apply spell stacking rules.

They're both badly handled, but what your player did can be rules lawyed out. Basically the problem you're thinking of would only happen if people didn't apply the rules.
TrackStar
07-01-05, 07:21 AM Very weak dragons, a party of level 16 characters would finish you of in a single round.
You gain the physical abilities (str, dex, con) of the dragon, those are NOT added as a bonus. and something else, i'm to lazy to write it right now :P

Permanently? What kind of polymorph are you using, polymorph any object? if so i'd suggest you not to become a dragon permanently unless of course you've got yodas patient and are willing to wait a 1000 years for power.

I believe it is polymorph any object. I assume he is going to play as the dragon and gain experience that way and just level as he normally would, even if he wasnt a dragon. Does this affect his leveling at all?
TrackStar
07-01-05, 07:25 AM He can't make it permenant without Polymorph any object, he can't even do that if you apply spell stacking rules.

They're both badly handled, but what your player did can be rules lawyed out. Basically the problem you're thinking of would only happen if people didn't apply the rules.

Well what rules need to be applied? He looks like a dragon and can now speak draconic since he has the mouth to do it with. (allrdy knew draconic) He gained a ton of abilities. He gained size and the benefits from that. Im sure he gained other things. But at what cost? Non. He used polymoprh any object, I am sure of it. Thats why its "permanent", atleast untill he polymorphs himself back into "himself"... So what rules should be applied here?

And what about spell stacking rules are you talking about?
Nyferto
07-01-05, 07:25 AM I know what he's doing, and no it doesn't actually work in the first place. He can't make himself permenantly a Dragon with Polymorph Any Object and he can't advance as a Dragon anyway.
TrackStar
07-01-05, 07:30 AM He isn't trying to advance as a dragaon, he is just useing it to be stronger untill he levels up enough that it no longer makes ihm stronger.

Can he still be buffed while in dragon form by spells? Items? etc?

What else is going on here, I am pretty clueless.
Jaid
07-01-05, 08:36 AM well, one thing to consider is that he might not be familiar with the dragon versions of spell components. for example, dragon "arms" are quite differently built from human arms, and while a dragon would certainly learn magic that his "arms" can manage, i don't know that a human wizard, or sorceror, would be able to do it (at least some sort of spell failure would make sense to me, like for armor).

but anyways, any spell that would normally effect a dragon will affect him (he has the dragon type now), although of course he doesn't have most of the stuff a dragon gets.

however, his gear would not necessarily all be 100% accommadating to his change of form. see the draconomicon for details ;)
runestar
07-01-05, 09:03 AM One way of handling it would be to impose a LA on th polymorphed race if he chooses to stick with it. So no more POA into astral devas or something.
Falfeir
07-01-05, 09:13 AM ok. lets start with powerplaying part:
1. yes, it is a overpowered spell. (polymorph self/other/object)
2. u can at lvl 7 turn into a firborg/hillgiant or any dragon type without any setbacks with huge bonuses to constitution score and natural armour. (3rd edition rules, i don't know the 3.5), u can wrestle any 7th level fighter.
3. polymorph self can be used to heal yourself and can be used unlimitedly to change into anything u want.
4. u can use to gain +10 to your disguise check

now the roleplaying part,
1. u cant transform to something u are not familiar with. if u haven't seen a dragon, just read about them and seen some sketches done by a bard i wouldn't allow u to change into one.
2. if u are not playing in a magic rich setting you'll have problems with local authorities in cities. (in athas for example)
3. very small portion of wizards would find size increase comforting. trickster type casters may love this spell for mischief and fun, but casters with high reputation among certain societies would find it repulsive to change into a giant.

overall this spell line is powerful but it encourages creativity and can be used in very different situations. this is no mmorpg so there is no need to adjust it. everything that u can use, is in dms arsenal also. :)

this is my first post btw :P
Drachasor
07-01-05, 09:58 AM 1. He only gets the extraordinary attacks of the Dragon. He doesn't get the vision powers, breath weapon, special abilities, or anything else. He only gains the physicial attacks and flying, essentially (but he is limited to a flight speed of 120).

2. He will probably have difficulty casting spells as a dragon, as previously noted.

3. Unless he is a reptile or half-dragon, then the dragon he turned into must be the same size as him (probably medium) and have the same or lower intelligence for the spell effect to be permanent.

4. His intelligence score changes to be the same as the dragon form he took. If he is a mage this could very well be a bad thing. He also gains the strength, dexterity, and constitution of the dragon form (and AC).

5. He IS NOT a true dragon, as he has none of the magical abilities of a dragon. It would be sensible of the DM to not let him age like a Dragon or anything similar to that. Polymorph Any Object can be dispelled at any time (and likely will be).

6. His Base Attack Bonus remains the same. His hitpoints are adjusted to his new constitution score, but otherwise remain the same. He doesn't gain dragon hit dice or anything similar. His Saving Throws are adjusted given his new ability scores, but otherwise remain the same. His skill ranks do not change, his feats do not change.

-Drachasor
Falfeir
07-01-05, 10:07 AM "4. His intelligence score changes to be the same as the dragon form he took. If he is a mage this could very well be a bad thing. He also gains the strength, dexterity, and constitution of the dragon form (and AC)."

only physical attributes change, wisdom, int and cha don't change
fnuffer
07-01-05, 11:29 AM From the SRD description of Polymorph Any Object:

"Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form. "

From the reading of the spell, unless the character is lizardfolk or some other reptile that is playable as a character, the duration would only be one week.

L. Fred Nuffer
Nyferto
07-01-05, 12:17 PM Check what type of Dragon, slap him down with the int score, the phsyical stats and that's it. He only gets EX attacks, nothing else.

He's limited to 15 HD, which means unless he's picked the right dragon, it's a weak transformation. It can also be dispelled, negated in an AMF and is made obsolete by Shapechange.

Does it? A player in one of the games I play is a wizard/fighter and has polymorphed himself into a green, then a red dragon. Supposedly this spell is permanent, atleast untill someone dispells it I think. Basically though, he gains enlarged size and a TON of ability improvements. All this at no cost?

If he's not got PAO, he's got no chance of doing this. Unless he's at least 15th level in Wizard, he can't even cast the spell. This is absolutely impossible to do due to stacking rules, they're in the PHB, read them.

If he's a red Dragon these are the maximum stats he can inherit.

Str 25
Dex 10
Con 17
Int 12

That's going to kill his casting ability, he's also a maximum of Large. He does get a 150ft Fly speed, but with poor maneuverability, and with no feats to back that up he's going to have a hard time doing anything. He does get a +12 Natural armour bonus, but he has of course got a -2 from size. He can't wear armour and his weapon usage is limited (if he has any at all). He does have immunity to fire, but a vulnerability to cold.
I wouldn't be jealous or concearned, i'd just Disjunct him.
Drachasor
07-01-05, 12:31 PM That's going to kill his casting ability, he's also a maximum of Large. He does get a 150ft Fly speed, but with poor maneuverability

His Flight Speed is 120ft. As per the Alter Self rules, flight speed caps at 120 with alter self, any polymorph, and shapechange (that last one is odd, ain't it?).

-Drachasor
Doklahar
07-05-05, 12:16 PM Firts off, u cant assine a LA for a smart player, that would be like hitting a dog because it did what it told you to, not a good idea if you want to keep any friends.

Now, having a perment Polymorph is pretty useless, as you dont gain any of the cool abilities of the form. But, as an alternitive he could try to get an item that creates a continuous 'Shapechange' effect. Shapechange would allow all but Spell-like abilities/attacks. So for a dragon he would gain all the neat little attack forms and the breath weapon as if he were a 34 HD dragon (ie, an anchient red dragon). The item would cost 460,500gp, and give him the effects of a continuous Shapechange. So he could afford it at a minumum of 19 level (and thats if you let him use about 80% of his gold on a single item).

In other words, he cant effectivly be a dragon with a polymorph type spell untill he's epic (if he buys it), or untill 17 level (if he is a strait 17 level wizard)

Circlet of Shapechange
Strong Transmutation, Caster level 17
Creates a continuous Shapechange effect
Cost: 460,500gp (caster level 17 x spell level 9 x 2000gp x 1.5 (10 min/lvl duration) + 1,500 (jade circlet) =460,500gp
Price: 230,250gp and 9,210xp, 231 days to create

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TrackStar 07-01-05, 06:39 AM	Does it? A player in one of the games I play is a wizard/fighter and has polymorphed himself into a green, then a red dragon. Supposedly this spell is permanent, atleast untill someone dispells it I think. Basically though, he gains enlarged size and a TON of ability improvements. All this at no cost? If this is the case, why doesnt everyone just polymorph themselves into somthing epic? If it does, I'm gonna show my dm, please provide sources though so I can proove it. :P
Norhg 07-01-05, 06:51 AM	Something epic? You can't polymorph into anything with more hd than you have yourself. Though, many times it is advantageous to actually polymorph into something else. There is no Character Level changes whatsoever.
ĐēşţĩŊŷ 07-01-05, 06:55 AM	Polymorph = 15 HD max or your own, whichever is lower. Polymorph any object = It can duplicate the effect of Polymorph, disguise self or alter self. Don't know where he found the über polymorph.
TrackStar 07-01-05, 06:58 AM	Are there ANY negatives to this what so ever? Thats kind of rediculous that someone could perma polymorph into something and only gain massive stat/ability gains at the loss of... not being able to fit down a small corridor? :P Whats to stop my whole party from wanting to polymorph into abunch of dragons at no loss, permanetly(save for dispell)?
TrackStar 07-01-05, 07:00 AM	Polymorph = 15 HD max or your own, whichever is lower. Polymorph any object = It can duplicate the effect of Polymorph, disguise self or alter self. Don't know where he found the über polymorph. Hmmm, I am pretty sure he polymorphed into a dragon type that had less HD than him. He is a lvl 16 character.
ĐēşţĩŊŷ 07-01-05, 07:13 AM	Very weak dragons, a party of level 16 characters would finish you of in a single round. You gain the physical abilities (str, dex, con) of the dragon, those are NOT added as a bonus. and something else, i'm to lazy to write it right now :P Permanently? What kind of polymorph are you using, polymorph any object? if so i'd suggest you not to become a dragon permanently unless of course you've got yodas patient and are willing to wait a 1000 years for power.
Nyferto 07-01-05, 07:17 AM	He can't make it permenant without Polymorph any object, he can't even do that if you apply spell stacking rules. They're both badly handled, but what your player did can be rules lawyed out. Basically the problem you're thinking of would only happen if people didn't apply the rules.
TrackStar 07-01-05, 07:21 AM	Very weak dragons, a party of level 16 characters would finish you of in a single round. You gain the physical abilities (str, dex, con) of the dragon, those are NOT added as a bonus. and something else, i'm to lazy to write it right now :P Permanently? What kind of polymorph are you using, polymorph any object? if so i'd suggest you not to become a dragon permanently unless of course you've got yodas patient and are willing to wait a 1000 years for power. I believe it is polymorph any object. I assume he is going to play as the dragon and gain experience that way and just level as he normally would, even if he wasnt a dragon. Does this affect his leveling at all?
TrackStar 07-01-05, 07:25 AM	He can't make it permenant without Polymorph any object, he can't even do that if you apply spell stacking rules. They're both badly handled, but what your player did can be rules lawyed out. Basically the problem you're thinking of would only happen if people didn't apply the rules. Well what rules need to be applied? He looks like a dragon and can now speak draconic since he has the mouth to do it with. (allrdy knew draconic) He gained a ton of abilities. He gained size and the benefits from that. Im sure he gained other things. But at what cost? Non. He used polymoprh any object, I am sure of it. Thats why its "permanent", atleast untill he polymorphs himself back into "himself"... So what rules should be applied here? And what about spell stacking rules are you talking about?
Nyferto 07-01-05, 07:25 AM	I know what he's doing, and no it doesn't actually work in the first place. He can't make himself permenantly a Dragon with Polymorph Any Object and he can't advance as a Dragon anyway.
TrackStar 07-01-05, 07:30 AM	He isn't trying to advance as a dragaon, he is just useing it to be stronger untill he levels up enough that it no longer makes ihm stronger. Can he still be buffed while in dragon form by spells? Items? etc? What else is going on here, I am pretty clueless.
Jaid 07-01-05, 08:36 AM	well, one thing to consider is that he might not be familiar with the dragon versions of spell components. for example, dragon "arms" are quite differently built from human arms, and while a dragon would certainly learn magic that his "arms" can manage, i don't know that a human wizard, or sorceror, would be able to do it (at least some sort of spell failure would make sense to me, like for armor). but anyways, any spell that would normally effect a dragon will affect him (he has the dragon type now), although of course he doesn't have most of the stuff a dragon gets. however, his gear would not necessarily all be 100% accommadating to his change of form. see the draconomicon for details ;)
runestar 07-01-05, 09:03 AM	One way of handling it would be to impose a LA on th polymorphed race if he chooses to stick with it. So no more POA into astral devas or something.
Falfeir 07-01-05, 09:13 AM	ok. lets start with powerplaying part: 1. yes, it is a overpowered spell. (polymorph self/other/object) 2. u can at lvl 7 turn into a firborg/hillgiant or any dragon type without any setbacks with huge bonuses to constitution score and natural armour. (3rd edition rules, i don't know the 3.5), u can wrestle any 7th level fighter. 3. polymorph self can be used to heal yourself and can be used unlimitedly to change into anything u want. 4. u can use to gain +10 to your disguise check now the roleplaying part, 1. u cant transform to something u are not familiar with. if u haven't seen a dragon, just read about them and seen some sketches done by a bard i wouldn't allow u to change into one. 2. if u are not playing in a magic rich setting you'll have problems with local authorities in cities. (in athas for example) 3. very small portion of wizards would find size increase comforting. trickster type casters may love this spell for mischief and fun, but casters with high reputation among certain societies would find it repulsive to change into a giant. overall this spell line is powerful but it encourages creativity and can be used in very different situations. this is no mmorpg so there is no need to adjust it. everything that u can use, is in dms arsenal also. :) this is my first post btw :P
Drachasor 07-01-05, 09:58 AM	1. He only gets the extraordinary attacks of the Dragon. He doesn't get the vision powers, breath weapon, special abilities, or anything else. He only gains the physicial attacks and flying, essentially (but he is limited to a flight speed of 120). 2. He will probably have difficulty casting spells as a dragon, as previously noted. 3. Unless he is a reptile or half-dragon, then the dragon he turned into must be the same size as him (probably medium) and have the same or lower intelligence for the spell effect to be permanent. 4. His intelligence score changes to be the same as the dragon form he took. If he is a mage this could very well be a bad thing. He also gains the strength, dexterity, and constitution of the dragon form (and AC). 5. He IS NOT a true dragon, as he has none of the magical abilities of a dragon. It would be sensible of the DM to not let him age like a Dragon or anything similar to that. Polymorph Any Object can be dispelled at any time (and likely will be). 6. His Base Attack Bonus remains the same. His hitpoints are adjusted to his new constitution score, but otherwise remain the same. He doesn't gain dragon hit dice or anything similar. His Saving Throws are adjusted given his new ability scores, but otherwise remain the same. His skill ranks do not change, his feats do not change. -Drachasor
Falfeir 07-01-05, 10:07 AM	"4. His intelligence score changes to be the same as the dragon form he took. If he is a mage this could very well be a bad thing. He also gains the strength, dexterity, and constitution of the dragon form (and AC)." only physical attributes change, wisdom, int and cha don't change
fnuffer 07-01-05, 11:29 AM	From the SRD description of Polymorph Any Object: "Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form. " From the reading of the spell, unless the character is lizardfolk or some other reptile that is playable as a character, the duration would only be one week. L. Fred Nuffer
Nyferto 07-01-05, 12:17 PM	Check what type of Dragon, slap him down with the int score, the phsyical stats and that's it. He only gets EX attacks, nothing else. He's limited to 15 HD, which means unless he's picked the right dragon, it's a weak transformation. It can also be dispelled, negated in an AMF and is made obsolete by Shapechange. Does it? A player in one of the games I play is a wizard/fighter and has polymorphed himself into a green, then a red dragon. Supposedly this spell is permanent, atleast untill someone dispells it I think. Basically though, he gains enlarged size and a TON of ability improvements. All this at no cost? If he's not got PAO, he's got no chance of doing this. Unless he's at least 15th level in Wizard, he can't even cast the spell. This is absolutely impossible to do due to stacking rules, they're in the PHB, read them. If he's a red Dragon these are the maximum stats he can inherit. Str 25 Dex 10 Con 17 Int 12 That's going to kill his casting ability, he's also a maximum of Large. He does get a 150ft Fly speed, but with poor maneuverability, and with no feats to back that up he's going to have a hard time doing anything. He does get a +12 Natural armour bonus, but he has of course got a -2 from size. He can't wear armour and his weapon usage is limited (if he has any at all). He does have immunity to fire, but a vulnerability to cold. I wouldn't be jealous or concearned, i'd just Disjunct him.
Drachasor 07-01-05, 12:31 PM	That's going to kill his casting ability, he's also a maximum of Large. He does get a 150ft Fly speed, but with poor maneuverability His Flight Speed is 120ft. As per the Alter Self rules, flight speed caps at 120 with alter self, any polymorph, and shapechange (that last one is odd, ain't it?). -Drachasor
Doklahar 07-05-05, 12:16 PM	Firts off, u cant assine a LA for a smart player, that would be like hitting a dog because it did what it told you to, not a good idea if you want to keep any friends. Now, having a perment Polymorph is pretty useless, as you dont gain any of the cool abilities of the form. But, as an alternitive he could try to get an item that creates a continuous 'Shapechange' effect. Shapechange would allow all but Spell-like abilities/attacks. So for a dragon he would gain all the neat little attack forms and the breath weapon as if he were a 34 HD dragon (ie, an anchient red dragon). The item would cost 460,500gp, and give him the effects of a continuous Shapechange. So he could afford it at a minumum of 19 level (and thats if you let him use about 80% of his gold on a single item). In other words, he cant effectivly be a dragon with a polymorph type spell untill he's epic (if he buys it), or untill 17 level (if he is a strait 17 level wizard) Circlet of Shapechange Strong Transmutation, Caster level 17 Creates a continuous Shapechange effect Cost: 460,500gp (caster level 17 x spell level 9 x 2000gp x 1.5 (10 min/lvl duration) + 1,500 (jade circlet) =460,500gp Price: 230,250gp and 9,210xp, 231 days to create