Post/Author/DateTime	Post
High Octane 08-01-07, 03:37 AM	Hi there everypeoples! Yes I have decided to try fixing what is commonly referred to as a broken class. However, unlike other rebalances, this is not a complete reformation of the class, but a revision of the old one. My goal was not to necessarily create a fighter who was on par with the heavy hitting classes like wizard or druid, but instead make the class more desirable to level in and not simply dip in. The fighter to me has always been very versatile and customizable while remaining simple, so my rebalance was made with simplicity and adaptability in mind. Placing it into your game will not require a great amount of reading or an abundance of work, and flavor-wise it will not change a bit. So I present to you, for your viewing pleasure: The Rebalanced Fighter Hit Die: d10 Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier (x4 at first level) Class Skills (Those not held by original class are bolded): Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (history), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Rope (Dex) lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Ability Focus 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Battle Focus +1 6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 7 +7 +5 +2 +2 Ability Focus 8 +8 +6 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 9 +9 +6 +3 +3 Battle Focus +2 10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 11 +11 +7 +3 +3 Ability Focus, Mettle 12 +12 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 13 +13 +8 +4 +4 Battle Focus +3 14 +14 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 15 +15 +9 +5 +5 Ability Focus 16 +16 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 17 +17 +10 +5 +5 Battle Focus +4, Full Focus 18 +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 19 +19 +11 +6 +6 Ability Focus 20 +20 +12 +6 +6 Bonus Feat Bonus Feats: At first level and every even numbered level after that the fighter gets a bonus feat that may be selected from the list of bonus fighter feats. Ability Focus: At 3rd level, a fighter chooses to either refine his physical movement to best utilize his strength, steady his movements to best utilize his dexterity, or focus his mind to best use his natural senses. The fighter chooses Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom for his ability focus. Once chosen, he receives a +1 bonus on all skill checks where that skill is the key ability, and all ability checks for that ability. (He does not get bonuses in other areas however, such as saves, attack bonus, and grapple checks). At 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level he receives another ability focus. He can choose to either apply it to a different ability or the same one, in which case the bonuses stack. Thus Regdar may choose at 3rd level to focus on strength, which gives him a +1 on all strength checks and related skills. At 7th level he chooses dexterity, so he keeps the +1 bonus on strength checks and skills and also receives a +1 on all dexterity checks and related skills. At 11th level he chooses strength again, so now he gets a +2 bonus on all strength checks and a +1 bonus on all dexterity checks. Battle Focus: At 5th level the fighter's focus on battle and combat become more refined. He receives an effective +1 to his base attack bonus for the purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes. For all other purposes his base attack bonus remains the same. This bonus however does not allow him to qualify for epic level feats before 21st level. In addition, he receives a +1 bonus on: Sense motive checks to avoid being feinted in combat Opposed attack rolls to prevent being disarmed or sundered (but not on any subsequent disarm attempts made in response) Strength or dexterity checks made to prevent being tripped or bull rushed(but not on any subsequent trip attempts made in response) Level checks to avoid being demoralized Will saves on any mind affecting extraordinary or supernatural abilities These bonuses increase to +2 at 9th level, +3 at 13th level, and +4 at 17th level. If you have bonuses on any checks mentioned due to Ability Focus, these bonuses stack. Mettle: At 11th level, a fighter learns how to shrug off effects that get in the way of his combat prowess. Any will save or fortitude save that the fighter makes that would instead give a partial effect on him instead have no effect on him. Full Focus: At 17th level a fighter becomes so focused on combat that his mind refuses to be persuaded otherwise. He gains an effective spell resistance towards any mind affecting spell or spell-like ability equal to his fighter level +11. This spell resistance may be raised or lowered by the fighter as an immediate action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. So, there you have it. Questions? Comments? Hopes? Dreams? Accusations? Did I miss anything? Edit: Spellcheck, added Knowledge (history) to the class skill list.
RobbyPants 08-01-07, 09:20 AM	What I like about this one is that it's relatively simple. Most of these (new) abilities don't serve to make the fighter that much more powerful, but rather, more resiliant. I also like the SR that only applies to mind-affecting spells.
natzero 08-01-07, 11:15 AM	ya sounds quite nice actually, now a fighter doesnt need to be ungodly strong and still be able to hold his own in melee. it makes sense that a fighter who is by definition at mercy to spellcasters would delve into some knowledge of resistance to them. good job
tarkin 08-01-07, 12:19 PM	I find this to be poorly done. 1. It kept all the fighters existing abilities, no removal at all. 2. It ignored the fighters true weakness. ----------------- The Fighter is in fact fairly balanced already... as long as you don't let the pansy weak casters stop battle after one or two fights. If you tell everyone right from the get-go that hey, you are going to have 5 or 6 fights every day, then guess what happens? ALl your casters are conserving spells, and NEVER using 'save or die' stuff. Instead they are using buffing spells, and other long acting spells. Suddenly, the fighters are thriving and the caster types are just barely getting by. ----------- The fighter's problem is that he has NO limited use ability. His major power is his feats, which are almost always use at will forever. This is what I would consider a reasonable way to 'fix' the fighter. No added powers, just some new feats, that solve a fighter's main problem. Deafen (Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 6+, Dex 13+ Benefit: Twice per day, as a full round action you can target a creature's ears. Make a single attack and roll damage normally. If you hit, in addition to the damage done, the victim must make a Fort save or be deafened. Fort Save DC is equal to 10 + your strength + your Dex modifier After one hour, they get another save (same DC). If they make the save, the cease to be deafened, otherwise it is permanent. A Remove Deafness spell (or similar/more powerfull ability) will fix this immediately. Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability two more times. Sunder hand (Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 9+, Dex 13+, Power Attack, Str 13+ Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action you can target a creature's hands or natural weapon, while using Power Attack. Make a single attack and roll damage normally. If you hit, in addition to the damage done, the victim must make a Reflex save or you severly damage the hand/natural weapon, making it unsuable for the day. Reflex Save DC is equal to 10 + your strength + 1/2 half the penalty you took to your to hit via Power Attack. After one hour, they get a Fort save (same DC). If they make the save, the hand has recovered. If they fail the save, they hand/weapon has become infected. It will take a Remove Disease to fix it. Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability one more time per day. Remove leg(Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 9+, Dex 13+, Power Attack, Str 13+, Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action you can target a creature's legs, wings, or similar movement appendage, while using Power Attack. Make a single attack and roll damage normally. If you hit, in addition to the damage done, the victim must make a Reflex save or you severly damage the appendage making it unsuable for the day. Movement rate for any type of movement that requires using it is cut to 5ft per round Reflex Save DC is equal to 10 + your strength + one half the penalty you took to your to hit via Power Attack. After one hour, they get a Fort save (same DC). If they make the save, the appendage has recovered. If they fail the save, they appendage has become infected. It will take a Remove Disease to fix it. Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability one more time per day. Blind(Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 13+, Dex 13+, TWF, Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action you can target both eyes of a creature. Make two attacks, rolling damage normally, using TWF penalties. In addition, declare before hand, a penalty you are taking to hit. The penalty applies to all attacks you make this round (even AoO's later on, but those AoO's can not blind anyone) If you hit once, you may damage one eye, if you hit twice you may damage both. The victim must make a Reflex save for each hit. Reflex Save DC is equal to 10 + your dex + the penalty you took to hit. If one eye fails, they lose depth perception and take a -5 penalty to spot and search. If both eyes are removed, they are blind for at least one hour After the victim has completely healed up (bakc to full), each eye gets a Fort save (same DC). If they make the save, the eye has recovered. If they fail the save, the eye is damaged beyond recovering, and they permanetly take the penalties above. A remove Blindness spell will cure both eyes (or just one if only one is damaged. Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability one more time per day. Throat cutter(Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 15+, Dex 15+, Power Attack, Str 13+, Cleave, Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action you can target a creature's vital spot, while using Power Attack. This ability only works on creatures that are vunerable to crits. Make a single attack and roll damage normally. If you hit, in addition to the damage done, the victim must make a Reflex save or you severly damage a vital spot, such as their throat, possibly killing them. Reflex Save DC is equal to 10 + your Dex + 1/2 the penalty you took to your to hit via Power Attack. If they fail this save, they are now at 1 hitpoint immediatly. The next round, they have to make another save, this time a Fort save (same DC). Failure means they begin to bleed at the rate of 1 pt per round (even though normally, you don't start bleeding till you hit -1 hitpoint) Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability one more time per day. ------------- That is how you solve the fighter problem. You give them x/day abilities, that are on par with similar spells. P.S. That is pretty much what the Tome of Battle/9 swords book tried to do.
OravennasBrother 08-01-07, 12:54 PM	As Tarkin said this just adds a lot of stuff to the existing Fighter. Stuff which is needed only because so many people play with spellcasters able to dictate a single encounter per day. The only thing I would like to see "fixed" on the fighter is to make whatever skills are required to effectively lead troops in battle class skills for the fighter, eliminating any need for some PrC to gain those skills. If the skills actually are special abilities thus leadership ability is not available to anyone just because they have Profession and Knowledge (all) as class skills then the fighter is fine as is.
LoneFlame 08-01-07, 02:21 PM	I find that the Fighter really don't fill any niche as well as it should. I've been told that the Fighter is the "meat shield," but the Barbarian, Knight, and Warblade do that so much better. As a leader of men, the Fighter lacks the skills for the job. All the Fighter can do is be a mindless grunt, and even then, other classes can do that job. The Fighter can be built to bring out some hurt, but then again, so can several other classes with much more ease. The Fighter just needs a little something extra. More skill points, more of the right skills, more abilities, and more class options. These are all things that most people can all agree that the fighter needs. The easiest method I've seen is to give the Fighter 4 + Int Mod skill points and tack on stuff on the dead lvs. Many of the options I've seen were good for one type of build or another, but lacked the flexibility and customizability that is supposed to be a big selling point for the Fighter.
High Octane 08-01-07, 02:26 PM	I find this to be poorly done. 1. It kept all the fighters existing abilities, no removal at all. 2. It ignored the fighters true weakness. ----------------- The Fighter is in fact fairly balanced already... as long as you don't let the pansy weak casters stop battle after one or two fights. If you tell everyone right from the get-go that hey, you are going to have 5 or 6 fights every day, then guess what happens? ALl your casters are conserving spells, and NEVER using 'save or die' stuff. Instead they are using buffing spells, and other long acting spells. Suddenly, the fighters are thriving and the caster types are just barely getting by. ----------- The fighter's problem is that he has NO limited use ability. His major power is his feats, which are almost always use at will forever. This is what I would consider a reasonable way to 'fix' the fighter. No added powers, just some new feats, that solve a fighter's main problem. .... That is how you solve the fighter problem. You give them x/day abilities, that are on par with similar spells. P.S. That is pretty much what the Tome of Battle/9 swords book tried to do. Actually from what I can tell Tome of Battle adds "per encounter" abilities more than any "per day". In my opinion the fighter was meant to have unlimited use of his abilities and that was his strength. However the fighter faces the problem that all other classes get abilities that put them a step ahead, even the melee classes such as barbarian, whereas all the fighter gets are more feats. What I wanted to do was give the fighter some abilities that were first of all unique to the class, and second of all worked with the abilities he already had. Battle focus makes the fighter's bonus feats more valuable, since it allows him to qualify for feats that wouldn't be available to him before that. Also, more importantly, it fills in the gap of those dead levels that fighters have. Think about when wizards reach level 5 they receive 3rd level spells, and all fighters get is another hit die.
High Octane 08-01-07, 02:30 PM	I find that the Fighter really don't fill any niche as well as it should. I've been told that the Fighter is the "meat shield," but the Barbarian, Knight, and Warblade do that so much better. As a leader of men, the Fighter lacks the skills for the job. All the Fighter can do is be a mindless grunt, and even then, other classes can do that job. The Fighter can be built to bring out some hurt, but then again, so can several other classes with much more ease. The Fighter just needs a little something extra. More skill points, more of the right skills, more abilities, and more class options. These are all things that most people can all agree that the fighter needs. The easiest method I've seen is to give the Fighter 4 + Int Mod skill points and tack on stuff on the dead lvs. Many of the options I've seen were good for one type of build or another, but lacked the flexibility and customizability that is supposed to be a big selling point for the Fighter. Well I've found that the fighter's strong point was that unlike most classes he was built, not pre-made. He doesn't fill a niche as well automatically because he has to be built to fit one, and can fill some different ones if they are built differently. Did you feel that the added abilities I gave filled these gaps well?
RobbyPants 08-01-07, 02:44 PM	----------------- The Fighter is in fact fairly balanced already... as long as you don't let the pansy weak casters stop battle after one or two fights. If you tell everyone right from the get-go that hey, you are going to have 5 or 6 fights every day, then guess what happens? ALl your casters are conserving spells, and NEVER using 'save or die' stuff. Instead they are using buffing spells, and other long acting spells. Suddenly, the fighters are thriving and the caster types are just barely getting by. ----------- I feel the real problem here is per-day abilities as opposed to per-encounter (or something similar) abilities, as High Octane said. This is a very arbitrary way to keep casters and the fighter at simlar levels. Unless forced into it by contrived story lines or not-so-random random encounters, the PCs will get into about as many fights as they want to. If they're dungeon delving with no time limitations, they'll get into a few fights and say it's time to rest. If they're willing to rest more often, then they can use more spells per encounter. I understand the game balance issue here, but it's a poorly thought out way to do it in general.
darkwaters_the_wolf 08-01-07, 06:36 PM	Heh, why do people take the Warblade into consideration in the debate of whether the fighter should be better? I consider the Tome of Battle to be a book of Melee Casters, you have the damage output of the casters but doing it by hitting your oppenent. I'll give credit, the swordsage and the crusader were nicely balanced editions to the DnD world but the Warblade? Can anything in melee stand up to it? Casters beware. That aside the Barbarian is a brilliant meat shield in the same way of the fighter and then some. But the Fighter can gain the consistency of the rage bonus to damage through a few well-managed feats (and obvious) feats, as well as have the versatility to go ranged. Okay, that said I believe the fighter is fairly balanced. If one is looking to redo the fighter perhaps thinking through fighter specific feats is the way to go, not adding on abilities because the caster kills more things than the fighter.
High Octane 08-01-07, 11:24 PM	Okay, that said I believe the fighter is fairly balanced. If one is looking to redo the fighter perhaps thinking through fighter specific feats is the way to go, not adding on abilities because the caster kills more things than the fighter. There are so many damn feats already adding more would be like spitting into a lake.
darkwaters_the_wolf 08-02-07, 06:18 AM	Even spitting into a lake will cause it to rise. Feats that are out there are one thing, considering very few truly build off each other or the leveling of the fighter class. Feats that lock in new ways for a fighter to hit something aren't needed, but feats that build off pre-existing ways. Start with one, low-level concept and make it truly exceptional into the high levels. That is what I mean by thinking through the fighter specific feats. Besides, there are a lot of spells but I don't see any of the casters complaining about getting new ones.
High Octane 08-03-07, 04:29 AM	How did this end up on the 3rd page in 2 days?
MogliGrimTooth 08-03-07, 08:36 AM	I find this to be poorly done. Deafen (Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 6+, Dex 13+ Benefit: Twice per day, as a full round action you can target a creature's ears. Make a single attack and roll damage normally. If you hit, in addition to the damage done, the victim must make a Fort save or be deafened. Fort Save DC is equal to 10 + your strength + your Dex modifier After one hour, they get another save (same DC). If they make the save, the cease to be deafened, otherwise it is permanent. A Remove Deafness spell (or similar/more powerfull ability) will fix this immediately. Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability two more times. Sunder hand (Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 9+, Dex 13+, Power Attack, Str 13+ Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action you can target a creature's hands or natural weapon, while using Power Attack. Make a single attack and roll damage normally. If you hit, in addition to the damage done, the victim must make a Reflex save or you severly damage the hand/natural weapon, making it unsuable for the day. Reflex Save DC is equal to 10 + your strength + 1/2 half the penalty you took to your to hit via Power Attack. After one hour, they get a Fort save (same DC). If they make the save, the hand has recovered. If they fail the save, they hand/weapon has become infected. It will take a Remove Disease to fix it. Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability one more time per day. Remove leg(Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 9+, Dex 13+, Power Attack, Str 13+, Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action you can target a creature's legs, wings, or similar movement appendage, while using Power Attack. Make a single attack and roll damage normally. If you hit, in addition to the damage done, the victim must make a Reflex save or you severly damage the appendage making it unsuable for the day. Movement rate for any type of movement that requires using it is cut to 5ft per round Reflex Save DC is equal to 10 + your strength + one half the penalty you took to your to hit via Power Attack. After one hour, they get a Fort save (same DC). If they make the save, the appendage has recovered. If they fail the save, they appendage has become infected. It will take a Remove Disease to fix it. Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability one more time per day. Blind(Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 13+, Dex 13+, TWF, Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action you can target both eyes of a creature. Make two attacks, rolling damage normally, using TWF penalties. In addition, declare before hand, a penalty you are taking to hit. The penalty applies to all attacks you make this round (even AoO's later on, but those AoO's can not blind anyone) If you hit once, you may damage one eye, if you hit twice you may damage both. The victim must make a Reflex save for each hit. Reflex Save DC is equal to 10 + your dex + the penalty you took to hit. If one eye fails, they lose depth perception and take a -5 penalty to spot and search. If both eyes are removed, they are blind for at least one hour After the victim has completely healed up (bakc to full), each eye gets a Fort save (same DC). If they make the save, the eye has recovered. If they fail the save, the eye is damaged beyond recovering, and they permanetly take the penalties above. A remove Blindness spell will cure both eyes (or just one if only one is damaged. Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability one more time per day. Throat cutter(Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 15+, Dex 15+, Power Attack, Str 13+, Cleave, Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action you can target a creature's vital spot, while using Power Attack. This ability only works on creatures that are vunerable to crits. Make a single attack and roll damage normally. If you hit, in addition to the damage done, the victim must make a Reflex save or you severly damage a vital spot, such as their throat, possibly killing them. Reflex Save DC is equal to 10 + your Dex + 1/2 the penalty you took to your to hit via Power Attack. If they fail this save, they are now at 1 hitpoint immediatly. The next round, they have to make another save, this time a Fort save (same DC). Failure means they begin to bleed at the rate of 1 pt per round (even though normally, you don't start bleeding till you hit -1 hitpoint) Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability one more time per day. ------------- That is how you solve the fighter problem. You give them x/day abilities, that are on par with similar spells. P.S. That is pretty much what the Tome of Battle/9 swords book tried to do. Dude these feats are awesome! You mind if i use some of them? Also I agree that fighters are fine. Im my game we just made a class called Pure warrior. Exactly the same as Fighter but can not multi class and starts with no preset feats... eg Shields, armour, weapons ect.... They get 8 feats to do so with as they wish at lvl1 (this makes them a bit thougher than other classes for a few levels but does not affect overall game) and a few extra feats over 20 levels to cover the dead levels.... Still the same class, no real change but many more choices.... PS. fighters Rock... Thanks MGT.
OneWinged4ngel 08-03-07, 01:56 PM	Hi there everypeoples! Yes I have decided to try fixing what is commonly referred to as a broken class. However, unlike other rebalances, this is not a complete reformation of the class, but a revision of the old one. My goal was not to necessarily create a fighter who was on par with the heavy hitting classes like wizard or druid, but instead make the class more desirable to level in and not simply dip in. The fighter to me has always been very versatile and customizable while remaining simple, so my rebalance was made with simplicity and adaptability in mind. Placing it into your game will not require a great amount of reading or an abundance of work, and flavor-wise it will not change a bit. So I present to you, for your viewing pleasure: The Rebalanced Fighter Hit Die: d10 Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier (x4 at first level) Class Skills (Those not held by original class are bolded): Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Rope (Dex) You gave the Fighter more class skills, and yet he still only has two skill points per level. At least raise it to four. Also, consider Knowledge (History) on the list. lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Ability Focus 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Battle Focus +1 6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 7 +7 +5 +2 +2 Ability Focus 8 +8 +6 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 9 +9 +6 +3 +3 Battle Focus +2 10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 11 +11 +7 +3 +3 Ability Focus, Mettle 12 +12 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 13 +13 +8 +4 +4 Battle Focus +3 14 +14 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 15 +15 +9 +5 +5 Ability Focus 16 +16 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 17 +17 +10 +5 +5 Battle Focus +4, Full Focus 18 +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 19 +19 +11 +6 +6 Ability Focus 20 +20 +12 +6 +6 Bonus Feat Bonus Feats: At first level and every even numbered level after that the fighter gets a bonus feat that may be selected from the list of bonus fighter feats. Ability Focus: At 3rd level, a fighter chooses to either refine his physical movement to best utilize his strength, steady his movements to best utilize his dexterity, or focus his mind to best use his natural senses. The fighter chooses Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom for his ability focus. Once chosen, he recieves a +1 bonus on all skill checks where that skill is the key ability, and all ability checks for that ability. (He does not get bonuses in other areas however, such as saves, attack bonus, and grapple checks). At 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level he recieves Spell check. It's "receives." I before E except after C ;) another ability focus. He can choose to either apply it to a different ability or the same one, in which case the bonuses stack. Thus Regdar may choose at 3rd level to focus on stength, Another spelling error... it's "strength" not "stength." which gives him a +1 on all strength checks and related skills. At 7th level he chooses dexterity, so he keeps the +1 bonus on strength checks and skills and also receives a +1 on all dexterity checks and related skills. At 11th level he chooses strength again, so now he gets a +2 bonus on all strength checks and a +1 bonus on all dexterity checks. Okay, honestly, a lot would go to helping the issue that I *think* this is supposed to be addressing if you just gave them more skill points per level. Battle Focus: At 5th level the fighter's focus on battle and combat become more refined. He receives an effective +1 to his base attack bonus for the purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes. For all other purposes his base attack bonus remains the same. This bonus however does not allow him to qualify for epic level feats before 21st level. In addition, he receives a +1 bonus on: Sense motive checks to avoid being feinted in combat Opposed attack rolls to prevent being disarmed or sundered (but not on any subsequent disarm attempts made in response) Strength or dexterity checks made to prevent being tripped or bull rushed(but not on any subsequent trip attempts made in response) Level checks to avoid being demoralized Will saves on any mind affecting extraordinary or supernatural abilities These bonuses increase to +2 at 9th level, +3 at 13th level, and +4 at 17th level. If you have bonuses on any checks mentioned due to Ability Focus, these bonuses stack. So... you just get slightly better at random stuff. Okay. Mettle: At 11th level, a fighter learns how to shrug off effects that get in the way of his combat prowess. Any will save or fortitude save that the fighter makes that would instead give a partial effect on him instead have no effect on him. A lot of people love this ability, though I really think it's a bit overrated. A fitting addition though. =P Full Focus: At 17th level a fighter becomes so focused on combat that his mind refuses to be persuaded otherwise. He gains an effective spell resistance towards any mind affecting spell or spell-like ability equal to his fighter level +11. This spell resistance may be raised or lowered by the fighter as an immediate action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The Fighter gains... spell resistance for some reason. Okay. Wouldn't it make much more sense to give a bonus to saves against enchantments? So, there you have it. Questions? Comments? Hopes? Dreams? Accusations? Did I miss anything? How is this going to... 1) make the Fighter more versatile in play? 2) solve the Fighter's lack of out-of-combat usefulness? and 3) ultimately address the issues with the Fighter many people find pressing? I find this to be poorly done. I have to agree... How did this end up on the 3rd page in 2 days? Because your fix doesn't really change much of anything of note.
High Octane 08-04-07, 12:09 AM	You gave the Fighter more class skills, and yet he still only has two skill points per level. At least raise it to four. Also, consider Knowledge (History) on the list. I actually was considering increasing the fighter's skill points, but I always figured a fighter was not meant to be a skill monkey. The later mentioned ability bonuses substitute a good amount of skill points. I never considered that knowledge, but that seems like a good idea. I'll add it. Spell check. It's "receives." I before E except after C ;) Another spelling error... it's "strength" not "stength." Okay, honestly, a lot would go to helping the issue that I *think* this is supposed to be addressing if you just gave them more skill points per level. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=receive You are right. Anyway, the idea wasn't just skill bonuses, but to make fighters also more effective with combat maneuvers. This bonus will help them with trips, disarms, resisting feints, etc. in addition to the skills. It also is an unnamed bonus so it stacks with any skills the fighter might have put in those skills. I felt it was more interesting than just increasing skill points. So... you just get slightly better at random stuff. Okay. Point was making fighters less vulnerable to combat maneuvers that other classes might attempt. Since combat maneuvers are where a fighter should be in his element, it made sense to me that a fighter should be more resilient against trips and disarms than a barbarian or ranger. A lot of people love this ability, though I really think it's a bit overrated. A fitting addition though. =P I figured the fighter needed something unique at mid-levels. This ability just seemed to fit. The Fighter gains... spell resistance for some reason. Okay. Wouldn't it make much more sense to give a bonus to saves against enchantments? Considering a fighter will not likely have a high will save at this point verse enchantments, so a bonus would have to be pretty high in order to accomplish giving the fighter much of a chance for resistance. Also, mind affecting spells are not limited to enchantment, also illusion. The spell resistance also scales with level (even though the fighter has only 4 levels left until epic). A bonus to saves would be open to either being useless (if it was small) with some builds, or if it was larger could cause other builds to have near immunity to mind affecting spells. Spell resistance gives both a flat amount of resistance. Also, again I thought this would be more interesting than some flat bonus. How is this going to... 1) make the Fighter more versatile in play? Having options of which physical (or mental) aspect to focus on the fighter will be able to choose some more choice maneuvers to use in combat. Also the increased effective base attack bonus for feat qualification gives him access to more feats at lower levels, making his building more versatile and powerful. 2) solve the Fighter's lack of out-of-combat usefulness? It won't. I wasn't attempting to address that really. Fighters specialize in combat, why should they suddenly get out of combat bonuses due to their class? If they want to be useful out of combat, they can buy or carry items that are useful. and 3) ultimately address the issues with the Fighter many people find pressing? Such as? I have to agree... Because your fix doesn't really change much of anything of note. How constructive.
OneWinged4ngel 08-04-07, 12:12 AM	How constructive. Is that supposed to be sarcastic? Because I did give a detailed response.
Arturius1 08-04-07, 12:19 AM	4ngel, he states in the link to the dictionary that you are right. It also isn't your place to tell others how they should act in their posts. But that's beside the point. I, for one, think the fighter in the PHB is balanced enough. It's always worked well for me in the past. This variant provides some extra abilities, but nothing so earth-shaking that it needs an entire class change.
High Octane 08-04-07, 12:25 AM	Right... the dictionary agrees with me. See? e... then i... It takes one truly gifted to think he's still right on a wrong spelling after he's looked it up in the dictionary. Is that supposed to be sarcastic? Because I did give a detailed response.Yes you did. Follwed by a snide comment. I edited my post, forgot to add after the link that I was agreeing.
OneWinged4ngel 08-04-07, 12:28 AM	Yes you did. Follwed by a snide comment. Saying "I don't think your fix changes much" is "derogatory in a nasty, insinuating manner?" :confused: Yeeeeaaaah. Right. It also isn't your place to tell others how they should act in their posts. ...Normally I would argue this but... where the heck did I tell others how they should act in their posts? In fact, *you're* the one telling *me* how to act in my posts, making you a complete hypocrite. :rolleyes:
High Octane 08-04-07, 12:31 AM	I find this to be poorly done. I have to agree... How did this end up on the 3rd page in 2 days? Because your fix doesn't really change much of anything of note. You don't find this snide?
Arturius1 08-04-07, 12:39 AM	Perhaps we should get back on the topic of the class posted.
Leress 08-04-07, 03:38 AM	Hi there everypeoples! Yes I have decided to try fixing what is commonly referred to as a broken class. However, unlike other rebalances, this is not a complete reformation of the class, but a revision of the old one. My goal was not to necessarily create a fighter who was on par with the heavy hitting classes like wizard or druid, but instead make the class more desirable to level in and not simply dip in. The fighter to me has always been very versatile and customizable while remaining simple, so my rebalance was made with simplicity and adaptability in mind. Placing it into your game will not require a great amount of reading or an abundance of work, and flavor-wise it will not change a bit. So I present to you, for your viewing pleasure: The Rebalanced Fighter I will keep this in mind Hit Die: d10 Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier (x4 at first level) Class Skills (Those not held by original class are bolded): Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (history), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Rope (Dex) You gave them more skills but didn't increase the number gain per level (I suggest at least 4/level) lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Ability Focus 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Battle Focus +1 6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 7 +7 +5 +2 +2 Ability Focus 8 +8 +6 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 9 +9 +6 +3 +3 Battle Focus +2 10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 11 +11 +7 +3 +3 Ability Focus, Mettle 12 +12 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 13 +13 +8 +4 +4 Battle Focus +3 14 +14 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 15 +15 +9 +5 +5 Ability Focus 16 +16 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 17 +17 +10 +5 +5 Battle Focus +4, Full Focus 18 +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 19 +19 +11 +6 +6 Ability Focus 20 +20 +12 +6 +6 Bonus Feat Okay... let's look closer Bonus Feats: At first level and every even numbered level after that the fighter gets a bonus feat that may be selected from the list of bonus fighter feats. Okay Ability Focus: At 3rd level, a fighter chooses to either refine his physical movement to best utilize his strength, steady his movements to best utilize his dexterity, or focus his mind to best use his natural senses. The fighter chooses Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom for his ability focus. Once chosen, he receives a +1 bonus on all skill checks where that skill is the key ability, and all ability checks for that ability. (He does not get bonuses in other areas however, such as saves, attack bonus, and grapple checks). At 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level he receives another ability focus. He can choose to either apply it to a different ability or the same one, in which case the bonuses stack. Thus Regdar may choose at 3rd level to focus on strength, which gives him a +1 on all strength checks and related skills. At 7th level he chooses dexterity, so he keeps the +1 bonus on strength checks and skills and also receives a +1 on all dexterity checks and related skills. At 11th level he chooses strength again, so now he gets a +2 bonus on all strength checks and a +1 bonus on all dexterity checks. Why have this when you could have just given the class more skill points per level? Battle Focus: At 5th level the fighter's focus on battle and combat become more refined. He receives an effective +1 to his base attack bonus for the purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes. For all other purposes his base attack bonus remains the same. This bonus however does not allow him to qualify for epic level feats before 21st level. In addition, he receives a +1 bonus on: Sense motive checks to avoid being feinted in combat Opposed attack rolls to prevent being disarmed or sundered (but not on any subsequent disarm attempts made in response) Strength or dexterity checks made to prevent being tripped or bull rushed(but not on any subsequent trip attempts made in response) Level checks to avoid being demoralized Will saves on any mind affecting extraordinary or supernatural abilities These bonuses increase to +2 at 9th level, +3 at 13th level, and +4 at 17th level. If you have bonuses on any checks mentioned due to Ability Focus, these bonuses stack. Well you don't have to worry about the epic thing since the all epic feats require to be over level 20. Most of these abilities don't really help but just add numbers to minor things. Why add numbers like this? Demoralization?? it only puts you in shaken status if it works at higher levels enemies wont even bother to do that since they have spell or abilities that are better. A bonus only to mind affecting EX and SU abilities...so most of the the mind affecting ones that kill you can still work. (Color Spray etc). Why trip and bull rush when using abilities like rend and pounce exist? Mettle: At 11th level, a fighter learns how to shrug off effects that get in the way of his combat prowess. Any will save or fortitude save that the fighter makes that would instead give a partial effect on him instead have no effect on him. Nice ability, it just come way too late and now make some of the bonuses from Battle Focus superfluous. Full Focus: At 17th level a fighter becomes so focused on combat that his mind refuses to be persuaded otherwise. He gains an effective spell resistance towards any mind affecting spell or spell-like ability equal to his fighter level +11. This spell resistance may be raised or lowered by the fighter as an immediate action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Why give him this now? Most are throwing that either don't care about SR or they can pass the check easily. So, there you have it. Questions? Comments? Hopes? Dreams? Accusations? Did I miss anything? Edit: Spellcheck, added Knowledge (history) to the class skill list. What was the focus of the "rebalance"? What are you balancing this against? It seems just to add tiny numbers to some situations and abilities that come too late to make a difference. *Every time I see this my hatred for those "dead levels" articles grows* *Yes I use them for my Guardian class but that creation isn't very good*
High Octane 08-04-07, 07:53 AM	Why give him this now? Most are throwing that either don't care about SR or they can pass the check easily. They can pass SR 28 without fail? The added bonus on combat related checks was not the core part of Battle focus I was going for. The ability of the fighter to get prestige classes and feats before any other class was. The secondary benefit was something I added because I felt that fighters were too sensitive to combat maneuvers, since they were supposed to be the ones familiar with all of them. I didnt want to roll all of that into the 3rd level benefit ability focus, so I instead put it on Battle Focus. Plus the ability focus and battle focus bonuses stack. The ability focus was meant to be a level filler. A reason to take 3rd level in fighter, as well as an added benefit for certain combat maneuver builds. Maybe instead I should go for a tiered system of ability focus, with increasing power as you invest in them. Think that would make the class more interesting?
OneWinged4ngel 08-04-07, 01:05 PM	They can pass SR 28 without fail? Beating SR 28 is a piece of cake at level 17. The average caster at level 17 is going to have at least a few sources boosting his caster level, and maybe a couple more for SR if they actually care. Even if they don't have a very high ability to bypass SR, though, they can just cast Assay Resistance as a Swift Action and get +10 to beating SR for 20+ rounds. Even the BARE MINIMUM for level 17 with Assay Resistance (a mere 4th level slot, which is a throwaway at level 17) is going to be +27. The ability focus was meant to be a level filler. Smart players don't take a level for filler. Seriously. That's why people dip into Prestige classes until they start getting filler abilities, then leave. That's why people take 2 levels of the core fighter then leave.
Leress 08-04-07, 03:50 PM	They can pass SR 28 without fail? Never said without fail, I said easily (more than 50% of the time) [Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, ioun stone, and caster level 17= 22 check, so fails on a 5 or less] The added bonus on combat related checks was not the core part of Battle focus I was going for. The ability of the fighter to get prestige classes and feats before any other class was. The secondary benefit was something I added because I felt that fighters were too sensitive to combat maneuvers, since they were supposed to be the ones familiar with all of them. I didnt want to roll all of that into the 3rd level benefit ability focus, so I instead put it on Battle Focus. But it doesn't really do that since you still need to meet the prerequirements of the feat (such as other feats, skill ranks, or ability scores), and with your limited number of feats at a given level you still will most likely have the same feats as any other time. The fighter doesn't have a problem with feats, they get plenty. They don't have a problem hitting things. This ability doesn't solve the problem, just a small bandage on a gunshot wound. Plus the ability focus and battle focus bonuses stack. Okay,still they are just tiny numbers to keep track of The ability focus was meant to be a level filler. A reason to take 3rd level in fighter, as well as an added benefit for certain combat maneuver builds. Never make an ability just a level filler, that is bad class design (more hatred towards those articles). Maybe instead I should go for a tiered system of ability focus, with increasing power as you invest in them. Think that would make the class more interesting? I tell you what was told to me on class design. Look, before you can even discuss a character class you have to have a firm idea of: How it fits into a four person party such that they win more often and better while that character is around. How it faces opposition of its level such that it accomplishes anything at all. How it is different from other classes. Then, and only then, can you have a decent discussion about whether something is too powerful, or not powerful enough, or whatever.
High Octane 08-04-07, 04:29 PM	Never said without fail, I said easily (more than 50% of the time) [Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, ioun stone, and caster level 17= 22 check, so fails on a 5 or less] Well does every caster take spell penetration? And still that is a 25% failure. I tell you what was told to me on class design. Ill take that to heart next time.
AMGriffin 08-04-07, 07:26 PM	I find this to be poorly done. 1. It kept all the fighters existing abilities, no removal at all. 2. It ignored the fighters true weakness. ----------------- The Fighter is in fact fairly balanced already... as long as you don't let the pansy weak casters stop battle after one or two fights. If you tell everyone right from the get-go that hey, you are going to have 5 or 6 fights every day, then guess what happens? ALl your casters are conserving spells, and NEVER using 'save or die' stuff. Instead they are using buffing spells, and other long acting spells. Suddenly, the fighters are thriving and the caster types are just barely getting by. ----------- The fighter's problem is that he has NO limited use ability. His major power is his feats, which are almost always use at will forever. This is what I would consider a reasonable way to 'fix' the fighter. No added powers, just some new feats, that solve a fighter's main problem. Deafen (Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 6+, Dex 13+ Benefit: Twice per day, as a full round action you can target a creature's ears. Make a single attack and roll damage normally. If you hit, in addition to the damage done, the victim must make a Fort save or be deafened. Fort Save DC is equal to 10 + your strength + your Dex modifier After one hour, they get another save (same DC). If they make the save, the cease to be deafened, otherwise it is permanent. A Remove Deafness spell (or similar/more powerfull ability) will fix this immediately. Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability two more times. Sunder hand (Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 9+, Dex 13+, Power Attack, Str 13+ Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action you can target a creature's hands or natural weapon, while using Power Attack. Make a single attack and roll damage normally. If you hit, in addition to the damage done, the victim must make a Reflex save or you severly damage the hand/natural weapon, making it unsuable for the day. Reflex Save DC is equal to 10 + your strength + 1/2 half the penalty you took to your to hit via Power Attack. After one hour, they get a Fort save (same DC). If they make the save, the hand has recovered. If they fail the save, they hand/weapon has become infected. It will take a Remove Disease to fix it. Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability one more time per day. Remove leg(Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 9+, Dex 13+, Power Attack, Str 13+, Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action you can target a creature's legs, wings, or similar movement appendage, while using Power Attack. Make a single attack and roll damage normally. If you hit, in addition to the damage done, the victim must make a Reflex save or you severly damage the appendage making it unsuable for the day. Movement rate for any type of movement that requires using it is cut to 5ft per round Reflex Save DC is equal to 10 + your strength + one half the penalty you took to your to hit via Power Attack. After one hour, they get a Fort save (same DC). If they make the save, the appendage has recovered. If they fail the save, they appendage has become infected. It will take a Remove Disease to fix it. Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability one more time per day. Blind(Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 13+, Dex 13+, TWF, Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action you can target both eyes of a creature. Make two attacks, rolling damage normally, using TWF penalties. In addition, declare before hand, a penalty you are taking to hit. The penalty applies to all attacks you make this round (even AoO's later on, but those AoO's can not blind anyone) If you hit once, you may damage one eye, if you hit twice you may damage both. The victim must make a Reflex save for each hit. Reflex Save DC is equal to 10 + your dex + the penalty you took to hit. If one eye fails, they lose depth perception and take a -5 penalty to spot and search. If both eyes are removed, they are blind for at least one hour After the victim has completely healed up (bakc to full), each eye gets a Fort save (same DC). If they make the save, the eye has recovered. If they fail the save, the eye is damaged beyond recovering, and they permanetly take the penalties above. A remove Blindness spell will cure both eyes (or just one if only one is damaged. Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability one more time per day. Throat cutter(Fighter) Pre req: Fighter level 15+, Dex 15+, Power Attack, Str 13+, Cleave, Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action you can target a creature's vital spot, while using Power Attack. This ability only works on creatures that are vunerable to crits. Make a single attack and roll damage normally. If you hit, in addition to the damage done, the victim must make a Reflex save or you severly damage a vital spot, such as their throat, possibly killing them. Reflex Save DC is equal to 10 + your Dex + 1/2 the penalty you took to your to hit via Power Attack. If they fail this save, they are now at 1 hitpoint immediatly. The next round, they have to make another save, this time a Fort save (same DC). Failure means they begin to bleed at the rate of 1 pt per round (even though normally, you don't start bleeding till you hit -1 hitpoint) Special: This feat can be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat, you can use the ability one more time per day. ------------- That is how you solve the fighter problem. You give them x/day abilities, that are on par with similar spells. P.S. That is pretty much what the Tome of Battle/9 swords book tried to do. Your feats don't require that much skill and finesse. Do you really think that a fighter is going to need to be level fifteen before he figures out how to cut somebody's throat? Hell, give me a greatsword and I'll lop your head or any limbs off.