"Stalker" Ranger [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Stalker" Ranger [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Galestorm
01-16-04, 09:51 PM A player wants to be a Lizardfolk in my campaign. Fine. He also wants to be of a variant ranger class. We worked it out, but I want to know if you guys think it is balanced:

The Stalker

Hit Die: d10
The stalker's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering/geography/nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill points per level: 6+ int modifier
Class Features -

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 1st Favored Enemy, Track
2 +2 +3 +0 +0
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Endurance, Poison Resistance +1
4 +4 +4 +1 +1
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 2nd Favored Enemy, Bonus Feat
6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Poison Resistance +2
7 +7 +5 +2 +2 Wetland Stride, Poison Use
8 +8 +6 +2 +2 Swift Tracker
9 +9 +6 +3 +3 Poison Resistance +3
10 +10 +7 +3 +3 3rd Favored Enemy
11 +11 +7 +3 +3
12 +12 +8 +4 +4 Poison Resistance +4
13 +13 +8 +4 +4 Camouflage
14 +14 +9 +4 +4
15 +15 +9 +5 +5 4th Favored Enemy, Poison Resistance +5
16 +16 +10 +5 +5
17 +17 +10 +5 +5 Hide in Plain Sight
18 +18 +11 +6 +6 Poison Resistance +6
19 +19 +11 +6 +6
20 +20 +12 +6 +6 5th Favored enemy

Further changes have been inplemented, but not posted above ( I dont have the time, sorry)

we decided that he keeps evasion, but the good reflex save is still chucked. He gets bonuses as the Terrain Mastery, Swamp of the Horizon Walker. (+4 move silently, +1 to attack/damage rolls vrs. Swamp dwellers). He also gets a snake animal companion as a druid of 1/2 his level.

Poison resistance also gives a bonus to craft: poison making.
Use Magic Device is a Class Skill.

Bonus Feats turn to imp. trip, bull rush, and disarm, w/out the prerequisite of combat expertise.
q'afuu
01-16-04, 10:15 PM Looks reasonable enough to me. Spells or no spells?
Shadowfax7
01-17-04, 09:11 AM The variant loses spellcasting ability, Combat Style (3 bonus feats), Evasion and an Animal Companion.

It gains a d10, 1 bonus feat and Poison Resistance +1 to +6.

Poison Use ??? unless this is an ability created for this variant class, anyone can use poison if it doesn't contradict with their alignment.

I feel it is an underpowered variant . . .

Let's compare:

1) d10 = spellcasting ?? OK
2) 1 bonus feat = Evasion ?? OK
3) Poison Resistance = Combat Style (3 feats !!!) ?? Maybe
4) and loss of Animal Companion ??

PS . . . Wetland Stride = Woodland Stride. OK.
q'afuu
01-17-04, 09:16 AM That's why I asked about the spells. With spells it seems more or less on par with the normal ranger. Without spells, it's underpowered.

Shadowfax7: Poison Use is a special ability which allows a character to handle poisons without risking accidentally poisoning himself/herself. It has nothing to do with being allowed to use poisons. As you noted, everyone is allowed to do that, barring alignment/Code of Conduct restrictions.
Shadowfax7
01-17-04, 09:16 AM OK, found the ability, Poison Use, under the Assasin PrC in the 3.5 DMG.

The variant looks a little more balanced now as the loss of an Animal Companion is "paid for". . . however, I would still give both Poison Use and the bonus feat at 1st level.

They are not that powerful of abilities.
Galestorm
01-17-04, 10:52 AM No spells, sorry.

Underpowered, thats what I thought. hm.. perhaps I'll let him get better at making poisons as time goes on (only costs a % of normal cost of crafting) Maybe poison resistance could be add to craft: poisonmaking rolls?
Mith
01-17-04, 11:36 AM Going by the Complete Warrior's "spell-less" ranger, spellcasting is worth about 4 special abilities, which each look about as strong as a feat to me. You also dropped the 3 feats for combat mastery, and evasion - worth at least a feat.
That's ~8 feats worth of dropped stuff.
Resist poison is a feat that gives poison resistance 4. So your poison resistance is worth ~1.5 feats.
Poison use - I seem to remember that this is actually a feat I've seen. Even if I'm wrong, no more than 2 feats worth.
1 bonus feat = 1 feat. Hey, can't get much more simple than that.
and a d10 = 1 feat. That would be Improved Toughness.
So, he traded ~8 feats+animal companion for ~4.5-5.5 feats.
I say it's underpowered.
Galestorm
01-17-04, 12:26 PM yeah... That was my gut feeling. Remember, this guy is giong to be a lizardfolk for 3 levels (cuase of ECL).

what could I add to the class to balance it, but still keep the "swamp stalker" archetype he wants?
BenjCano
01-17-04, 01:57 PM Bring back up the Reflex save again, restore evasion, and give a +10 speed bonus at some point in the progression and call it even.
Galestorm
01-17-04, 03:52 PM He would rather his Ranger have a "burly" feel. Im thinking w focus/specialization with blowgun? More feats?
Lomiir
01-17-04, 04:22 PM Perhaps up the favored enemy progression?

@4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th.
ManTimeForgot
01-17-04, 04:59 PM Underpowered.

Trades good reflex save and ranger spellcasting for poison resistance and poison use.

Woefully underpowered. Doesn't even gain bonuses to skills to make up for the fact that he is now missing out on being able to perform all kinds of wildernessy tricks (which the ranger should otherwise be able to do through skills or abilities imo).

And just how wetland stride? This guy gonna be wading through kelp and coral that often?

Thank You all and have a nice day.
Signed,
The Man Time Forgot
Galestorm
01-17-04, 05:05 PM The general consencous is yes, it is underpowered. Now, ManTimeForgot, how do you propose to "fix" it, if you please?

Edit: Rereading my post, it seems rather, "tetchy" and derisive. Now, I hold much respect for ManTimeForgot, him being both an intelligent and prominent poster on these boards, and I only wish to have his opinion on how to "balance" this class.
Johannixx
01-17-04, 09:31 PM I'd just give him his Combat Style back, but perhaps he'd prefer a set of feats that deal with a two-handed weapon (perhaps Power Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Sunder)
Galestorm
01-17-04, 11:04 PM we decided that he keeps evasion, but the good reflex save is still chucked. He gets bonuses as the Terrain Mastery, Swamp of the Horizon Walker. (+4 move silently, +1 to attack/damage rolls vrs. Swamp dwellers). He also gets a snake animal companion as a druid of 1/2 his level.

Poison resistance also gives a bonus to craft: poison making.
Use Magic Device is a Class Skill.

Bonus Feats turn to imp. trip, bull rush, and disarm, w/out the prerequisite of combat expertise.

Questions? Comments? Thanks for all the help so far. I'll be out of town for a day or two.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Galestorm 01-16-04, 09:51 PM	A player wants to be a Lizardfolk in my campaign. Fine. He also wants to be of a variant ranger class. We worked it out, but I want to know if you guys think it is balanced: The Stalker Hit Die: d10 The stalker's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering/geography/nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex). Skill points per level: 6+ int modifier Class Features - Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 1st Favored Enemy, Track 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Endurance, Poison Resistance +1 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 2nd Favored Enemy, Bonus Feat 6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Poison Resistance +2 7 +7 +5 +2 +2 Wetland Stride, Poison Use 8 +8 +6 +2 +2 Swift Tracker 9 +9 +6 +3 +3 Poison Resistance +3 10 +10 +7 +3 +3 3rd Favored Enemy 11 +11 +7 +3 +3 12 +12 +8 +4 +4 Poison Resistance +4 13 +13 +8 +4 +4 Camouflage 14 +14 +9 +4 +4 15 +15 +9 +5 +5 4th Favored Enemy, Poison Resistance +5 16 +16 +10 +5 +5 17 +17 +10 +5 +5 Hide in Plain Sight 18 +18 +11 +6 +6 Poison Resistance +6 19 +19 +11 +6 +6 20 +20 +12 +6 +6 5th Favored enemy Further changes have been inplemented, but not posted above ( I dont have the time, sorry) we decided that he keeps evasion, but the good reflex save is still chucked. He gets bonuses as the Terrain Mastery, Swamp of the Horizon Walker. (+4 move silently, +1 to attack/damage rolls vrs. Swamp dwellers). He also gets a snake animal companion as a druid of 1/2 his level. Poison resistance also gives a bonus to craft: poison making. Use Magic Device is a Class Skill. Bonus Feats turn to imp. trip, bull rush, and disarm, w/out the prerequisite of combat expertise.
q'afuu 01-16-04, 10:15 PM	Looks reasonable enough to me. Spells or no spells?
Shadowfax7 01-17-04, 09:11 AM	The variant loses spellcasting ability, Combat Style (3 bonus feats), Evasion and an Animal Companion. It gains a d10, 1 bonus feat and Poison Resistance +1 to +6. Poison Use ??? unless this is an ability created for this variant class, anyone can use poison if it doesn't contradict with their alignment. I feel it is an underpowered variant . . . Let's compare: 1) d10 = spellcasting ?? OK 2) 1 bonus feat = Evasion ?? OK 3) Poison Resistance = Combat Style (3 feats !!!) ?? Maybe 4) and loss of Animal Companion ?? PS . . . Wetland Stride = Woodland Stride. OK.
q'afuu 01-17-04, 09:16 AM	That's why I asked about the spells. With spells it seems more or less on par with the normal ranger. Without spells, it's underpowered. Shadowfax7: Poison Use is a special ability which allows a character to handle poisons without risking accidentally poisoning himself/herself. It has nothing to do with being allowed to use poisons. As you noted, everyone is allowed to do that, barring alignment/Code of Conduct restrictions.
Shadowfax7 01-17-04, 09:16 AM	OK, found the ability, Poison Use, under the Assasin PrC in the 3.5 DMG. The variant looks a little more balanced now as the loss of an Animal Companion is "paid for". . . however, I would still give both Poison Use and the bonus feat at 1st level. They are not that powerful of abilities.
Galestorm 01-17-04, 10:52 AM	No spells, sorry. Underpowered, thats what I thought. hm.. perhaps I'll let him get better at making poisons as time goes on (only costs a % of normal cost of crafting) Maybe poison resistance could be add to craft: poisonmaking rolls?
Mith 01-17-04, 11:36 AM	Going by the Complete Warrior's "spell-less" ranger, spellcasting is worth about 4 special abilities, which each look about as strong as a feat to me. You also dropped the 3 feats for combat mastery, and evasion - worth at least a feat. That's ~8 feats worth of dropped stuff. Resist poison is a feat that gives poison resistance 4. So your poison resistance is worth ~1.5 feats. Poison use - I seem to remember that this is actually a feat I've seen. Even if I'm wrong, no more than 2 feats worth. 1 bonus feat = 1 feat. Hey, can't get much more simple than that. and a d10 = 1 feat. That would be Improved Toughness. So, he traded ~8 feats+animal companion for ~4.5-5.5 feats. I say it's underpowered.
Galestorm 01-17-04, 12:26 PM	yeah... That was my gut feeling. Remember, this guy is giong to be a lizardfolk for 3 levels (cuase of ECL). what could I add to the class to balance it, but still keep the "swamp stalker" archetype he wants?
BenjCano 01-17-04, 01:57 PM	Bring back up the Reflex save again, restore evasion, and give a +10 speed bonus at some point in the progression and call it even.
Galestorm 01-17-04, 03:52 PM	He would rather his Ranger have a "burly" feel. Im thinking w focus/specialization with blowgun? More feats?
Lomiir 01-17-04, 04:22 PM	Perhaps up the favored enemy progression? @4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th.
ManTimeForgot 01-17-04, 04:59 PM	Underpowered. Trades good reflex save and ranger spellcasting for poison resistance and poison use. Woefully underpowered. Doesn't even gain bonuses to skills to make up for the fact that he is now missing out on being able to perform all kinds of wildernessy tricks (which the ranger should otherwise be able to do through skills or abilities imo). And just how wetland stride? This guy gonna be wading through kelp and coral that often? Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Galestorm 01-17-04, 05:05 PM	The general consencous is yes, it is underpowered. Now, ManTimeForgot, how do you propose to "fix" it, if you please? Edit: Rereading my post, it seems rather, "tetchy" and derisive. Now, I hold much respect for ManTimeForgot, him being both an intelligent and prominent poster on these boards, and I only wish to have his opinion on how to "balance" this class.
Johannixx 01-17-04, 09:31 PM	I'd just give him his Combat Style back, but perhaps he'd prefer a set of feats that deal with a two-handed weapon (perhaps Power Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Sunder)
Galestorm 01-17-04, 11:04 PM	we decided that he keeps evasion, but the good reflex save is still chucked. He gets bonuses as the Terrain Mastery, Swamp of the Horizon Walker. (+4 move silently, +1 to attack/damage rolls vrs. Swamp dwellers). He also gets a snake animal companion as a druid of 1/2 his level. Poison resistance also gives a bonus to craft: poison making. Use Magic Device is a Class Skill. Bonus Feats turn to imp. trip, bull rush, and disarm, w/out the prerequisite of combat expertise. Questions? Comments? Thanks for all the help so far. I'll be out of town for a day or two.