Animal Companion & Paladin Mount? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animal Companion & Paladin Mount? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tintagel
04-17-04, 03:15 PM Ok, here is a confusing one:

A player in my campaign has an animal companion: A riding dog, and she is 8th level (second tier of animal companion abilities).

The Erratta says that her mount is NOT a magical beast, but an animal.

She took a level in Paladin Prestige class (unearthed Arcana) and she is about to advance to level 2 in that class (10th level character overall).

The problem is, her dog is her best friend (and already a mount), and she has done everything she could to protect her. She doesn't want to let her go.

Can she designate her animal companion as her Special Mount? If so, do the abilities stack? Do they overlap (and take the best)? Or do you have to choose either companion or special mount?

I would appreciate official interpretations as well as house-rule interpretations on this, since she has definitely role-played well in regards to her companion, and I don't mind making exceptions.

Thanks!
Daemeon_Blackheart
04-17-04, 03:52 PM I really have no idea buty its up to the dm weather she keeps the mount or summons another one. But look at it this way, a ranger with the wild cohort feat can take an extra animal compaion. In my opion she would be able to summon a special mount and still keep her riding dog or make the roding dog into the special mount. Its all up to the DM my friend.:angel:
Thorak
04-17-04, 04:20 PM IMHO, adding the Special Mount abilities to the dog might be too much, but I haven't checked to see. And it raises problems; the Mount is summoned from a celestial realm; does your Animal Companion therefore get sent to the celestial realm for most of the day? Sort of defeats the purpose of the AC, and removes an important feature of the SM; it's summonable nature.

But nothing forbids having both, as two separate creatures. Perhaps you don't use the Special Mount much. Perhaps you save it for those occasions when your AC can't carry you, for whatever reason.

Another, similar way to cope would be to have the AC 'upgrade' into the SM. An ideal way would be to have the AC killed somehow; their spirit could then be 'so attached' to the PC that they will come from the Celestial heaven they spend their afterlife in to serve as their mount, exactly as the rules work for special mounts. And then, the character is also free to take a new animal companion, which could be a mini-adventure of it's own.
Tintagel
04-17-04, 09:23 PM Ok. I spoke with my player, and these are her concerns/desires.

She doesn't want another companion or separate animal. She only wants to keep her dog. She has invested a good bit of RP, time, and energy into it and doesn't want to change the relationship.

She is willing to have it become a Special Mount, thereby summoned for 10 hours per day (the prestige class grants the ability at +3 levels, so that they are trated as 5th when they pick it up at 2nd level). She is willing to have it reside in the celestial realms from now on. She says she will miss it some but that it's a much nicer place for it to live. :)

Again, she doesn't want another companion, but she also doesn't want to throw away 8 levels of the Animal Companion ability either. She wants something in return. I would too if I were a player...

Here are my first two guesses at a solution. Let me know what you guys think:
[list=1]
Count her 8 levels of Animal Companion as Paladin Mount levels, but discard the bonus 3 from the prestige class. This would make her mount ability equal to her character level (10th). This mimics other similar ability additions form other classes (sneak attack, animal companion from ranger/druid) as they usually add levels of similar abilities.
Count the dog as both an animal companion and a special mount, but the abilities overlap (do not stack). Thus it takes the best of both. In a couple of levels, though, the mount abilities will overshadow the companion abilities. Except for a +2 to dex, the 8 levels of companion ability will be worthless. :(
[/list=1]

I really don't want to make her throw away the companion ability, but I don't want to make her mount too powerful. Right now I am leaning towards the first option, since it will effectively convert her ability to have an animal companion to the paladin's Special mount ability. Thus she will never be able to gain another companion, but her bond to her special mount will be stronger. This also goes more in line with her role-playing thus far: she has always role-played the dog as a mount, and has never taken any other animal as a companion. She has never allowed the dog to die, and has said she would probably not aquire another if her dog were ever to die. Sometimes I thought about converting the companion ability to the Special Mount before she ever went paladin...

As far as the RP is concerned, I was going to work out a special ceremony for her to send her dog to the celestial realm to complete the process.
EvilVegan
04-17-04, 11:09 PM What about a temporary effect?

He summons a celestial spirit which empowers the Dog with the abilities of a special mount for a limited time. while its a Special Mount it uses the Paladin Mount abilities, when it reverts to a normal riding dog it gets its Animal Companion abilites.
Thorak
04-18-04, 12:37 AM That could work too, EvilVegan.

However, consider just playing by the rules. Just because someone's invested RP in a companion doesn't mean they should get special treatment for it, necessarily. She's entitled to two 'helpers', not one uberhelper. It's fine to make up a houserule if you want to, but forcing her to go 'by the book' also creates new RP opportunities; the "AC dies and becomes the mount" bit I mentioned earlier, or something else entirely different; either way, it makes for great RP and character development.

I've been saying this it seems in every 2nd post I've made recently; interesting characters and stories are driven by conflict and tension. It might make her and her character briefly happy to allow it to be both. But it also will tend to make her character less interesting both to her and the others; yes the dog would be relatively unique, but she's avoided the chance to open up some really interesting questions about her and the dog's relationship. It seems like the easy way out, and the easy way out is often the boring way out.
Mith
04-18-04, 01:06 AM I would let animal companion levels count towards mount levels, definitely. IMO, that's the least you could do, as a reasonable DM. If the player asked me to combine the abilities of both the mount and animal companion, I'd smack him upside the head for being a powergamer. But it sounds like your player has a very legitimate roleplaying reason for his actions, so I'd tweak the rules a little to help him out. It sounds like the player is willing to actually sacrifice mechanical power for roleplaying purposes. That's rare, and I'd encourage it if I were you.
Tintagel
04-18-04, 01:55 AM Thanks, everyone for your feedback. It has really helped a lot.

Thorak, I like your idea for the AC dying, but I don't think she will like that at all. I personally like character conflict like that, and I ran a Ravenloft campaign for a while, but she never liked that kind of RP. I think you all should have an idea of what the character is like and where the campaign is going in order to really understand the situation:

Character Name: Sunni
Race: Halfling (female)
Class: Customized Cleric (priestess) 8 / Paladin Prestige 1 (going for 2)

Custom Cleric:
BAB as wizard, 1d6 hp, 6 skill points per level, cleric skills plus sense motive, ride, handle animal. Simple blunt weapon proficiencies, Light armor proficiency only. Turn undead as cleric. Animal Companion as Druid.

Feats: (regional) luck of heroes, mounted combat, skill focus: concentration, craft wand, craft gumball (exactly like brew potion but tasty gumballs instead) :)

Sunni has the least hp in the party at 47 (the wizard/elf paragon/harper mage has 50). She is very weak in melee, and fires a sling once in a blue moon (for 1d3 damage!). Her main role is to heal, protect, and cleanse the party members of any afflictions. She is a cheerful, happy character that all of the party looks out for. If Sunni gets into trouble, everyone comes running.

Her dog, Lady, has been with her since level 1. She was a basic riding dog until about 5th level (and didn't die!) when I offered Michelle (the player) an opportunity to take the custom cleric class. Despite the very weak abilities, she jumped on it because it would mean that Lady might have a better chance at survival.

We have just started the City of the Spider Queen module, and it is TOUGH. She really needs something to help with getting her dog to difficult places, and the mount ability will help. She HATES spiders and the module is pretty dark, so Sunni is already out of her element. Now she is becoming so weak in physical combat that she decided to take a couple of levels in Paladin Prestige for the save bonuses, immunity to fear, etc. I don't think she thought about the special mount.

I feel that her character has been well thought and well-played (she does a journal after each session), and she doesn't powergame at all. She really doesn't care about the game rules that much, or know them enough to powergame.

I think I might just convert her Druid Animal Companion ability to Special Mount right from level 1 of the custom cleric. d6 hp, wizard BAB, and poor weapon & armor proficiencies really should balance out a paladin mount and 6 skill points, do you think? That way, everything stays as close to the rules as possible (for a customized class that is).
Thorak
04-18-04, 11:22 AM If she really, really just wants her dog, I'd suggest giving her either Animal Companion or Special Mount statistics at her combined level, but not both separate ones combined at class levels. And if you want a nifty houserule bit, perhaps give her dog the Celestial template instead of using the paladin levels to boost the power; it'll be a bigger boost in the short term at least, but it shouldn't be overpowering at 9th level.
Tintagel
04-18-04, 11:32 AM Hey, wow! I never thought about the celestial thing. At lower levels, it could even have been half-celestial. I'll run that by my other players and see what they think about it.

Thanks for the great ideas and feedback!

[edit]: DOH, half-celestial is better than celestial! I had a brain fart there...

So you mean tack on the celestial on top of the Animal Companion and ignore the special mount?
Thorak
04-18-04, 01:53 PM Exactly; the special mount is supposed to come from a Celestial realm. So instead of coming from the Celestial realm, the AC takes on the characteristics of the Celestial realm itself. You lose the insta-summon ability, but it's probably a decent tradeoff.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tintagel 04-17-04, 03:15 PM	Ok, here is a confusing one: A player in my campaign has an animal companion: A riding dog, and she is 8th level (second tier of animal companion abilities). The Erratta says that her mount is NOT a magical beast, but an animal. She took a level in Paladin Prestige class (unearthed Arcana) and she is about to advance to level 2 in that class (10th level character overall). The problem is, her dog is her best friend (and already a mount), and she has done everything she could to protect her. She doesn't want to let her go. Can she designate her animal companion as her Special Mount? If so, do the abilities stack? Do they overlap (and take the best)? Or do you have to choose either companion or special mount? I would appreciate official interpretations as well as house-rule interpretations on this, since she has definitely role-played well in regards to her companion, and I don't mind making exceptions. Thanks!
Daemeon_Blackheart 04-17-04, 03:52 PM	I really have no idea buty its up to the dm weather she keeps the mount or summons another one. But look at it this way, a ranger with the wild cohort feat can take an extra animal compaion. In my opion she would be able to summon a special mount and still keep her riding dog or make the roding dog into the special mount. Its all up to the DM my friend.:angel:
Thorak 04-17-04, 04:20 PM	IMHO, adding the Special Mount abilities to the dog might be too much, but I haven't checked to see. And it raises problems; the Mount is summoned from a celestial realm; does your Animal Companion therefore get sent to the celestial realm for most of the day? Sort of defeats the purpose of the AC, and removes an important feature of the SM; it's summonable nature. But nothing forbids having both, as two separate creatures. Perhaps you don't use the Special Mount much. Perhaps you save it for those occasions when your AC can't carry you, for whatever reason. Another, similar way to cope would be to have the AC 'upgrade' into the SM. An ideal way would be to have the AC killed somehow; their spirit could then be 'so attached' to the PC that they will come from the Celestial heaven they spend their afterlife in to serve as their mount, exactly as the rules work for special mounts. And then, the character is also free to take a new animal companion, which could be a mini-adventure of it's own.
Tintagel 04-17-04, 09:23 PM	Ok. I spoke with my player, and these are her concerns/desires. She doesn't want another companion or separate animal. She only wants to keep her dog. She has invested a good bit of RP, time, and energy into it and doesn't want to change the relationship. She is willing to have it become a Special Mount, thereby summoned for 10 hours per day (the prestige class grants the ability at +3 levels, so that they are trated as 5th when they pick it up at 2nd level). She is willing to have it reside in the celestial realms from now on. She says she will miss it some but that it's a much nicer place for it to live. :) Again, she doesn't want another companion, but she also doesn't want to throw away 8 levels of the Animal Companion ability either. She wants something in return. I would too if I were a player... Here are my first two guesses at a solution. Let me know what you guys think: [list=1] Count her 8 levels of Animal Companion as Paladin Mount levels, but discard the bonus 3 from the prestige class. This would make her mount ability equal to her character level (10th). This mimics other similar ability additions form other classes (sneak attack, animal companion from ranger/druid) as they usually add levels of similar abilities. Count the dog as both an animal companion and a special mount, but the abilities overlap (do not stack). Thus it takes the best of both. In a couple of levels, though, the mount abilities will overshadow the companion abilities. Except for a +2 to dex, the 8 levels of companion ability will be worthless. :( [/list=1] I really don't want to make her throw away the companion ability, but I don't want to make her mount too powerful. Right now I am leaning towards the first option, since it will effectively convert her ability to have an animal companion to the paladin's Special mount ability. Thus she will never be able to gain another companion, but her bond to her special mount will be stronger. This also goes more in line with her role-playing thus far: she has always role-played the dog as a mount, and has never taken any other animal as a companion. She has never allowed the dog to die, and has said she would probably not aquire another if her dog were ever to die. Sometimes I thought about converting the companion ability to the Special Mount before she ever went paladin... As far as the RP is concerned, I was going to work out a special ceremony for her to send her dog to the celestial realm to complete the process.
EvilVegan 04-17-04, 11:09 PM	What about a temporary effect? He summons a celestial spirit which empowers the Dog with the abilities of a special mount for a limited time. while its a Special Mount it uses the Paladin Mount abilities, when it reverts to a normal riding dog it gets its Animal Companion abilites.
Thorak 04-18-04, 12:37 AM	That could work too, EvilVegan. However, consider just playing by the rules. Just because someone's invested RP in a companion doesn't mean they should get special treatment for it, necessarily. She's entitled to two 'helpers', not one uberhelper. It's fine to make up a houserule if you want to, but forcing her to go 'by the book' also creates new RP opportunities; the "AC dies and becomes the mount" bit I mentioned earlier, or something else entirely different; either way, it makes for great RP and character development. I've been saying this it seems in every 2nd post I've made recently; interesting characters and stories are driven by conflict and tension. It might make her and her character briefly happy to allow it to be both. But it also will tend to make her character less interesting both to her and the others; yes the dog would be relatively unique, but she's avoided the chance to open up some really interesting questions about her and the dog's relationship. It seems like the easy way out, and the easy way out is often the boring way out.
Mith 04-18-04, 01:06 AM	I would let animal companion levels count towards mount levels, definitely. IMO, that's the least you could do, as a reasonable DM. If the player asked me to combine the abilities of both the mount and animal companion, I'd smack him upside the head for being a powergamer. But it sounds like your player has a very legitimate roleplaying reason for his actions, so I'd tweak the rules a little to help him out. It sounds like the player is willing to actually sacrifice mechanical power for roleplaying purposes. That's rare, and I'd encourage it if I were you.
Tintagel 04-18-04, 01:55 AM	Thanks, everyone for your feedback. It has really helped a lot. Thorak, I like your idea for the AC dying, but I don't think she will like that at all. I personally like character conflict like that, and I ran a Ravenloft campaign for a while, but she never liked that kind of RP. I think you all should have an idea of what the character is like and where the campaign is going in order to really understand the situation: Character Name: Sunni Race: Halfling (female) Class: Customized Cleric (priestess) 8 / Paladin Prestige 1 (going for 2) Custom Cleric: BAB as wizard, 1d6 hp, 6 skill points per level, cleric skills plus sense motive, ride, handle animal. Simple blunt weapon proficiencies, Light armor proficiency only. Turn undead as cleric. Animal Companion as Druid. Feats: (regional) luck of heroes, mounted combat, skill focus: concentration, craft wand, craft gumball (exactly like brew potion but tasty gumballs instead) :) Sunni has the least hp in the party at 47 (the wizard/elf paragon/harper mage has 50). She is very weak in melee, and fires a sling once in a blue moon (for 1d3 damage!). Her main role is to heal, protect, and cleanse the party members of any afflictions. She is a cheerful, happy character that all of the party looks out for. If Sunni gets into trouble, everyone comes running. Her dog, Lady, has been with her since level 1. She was a basic riding dog until about 5th level (and didn't die!) when I offered Michelle (the player) an opportunity to take the custom cleric class. Despite the very weak abilities, she jumped on it because it would mean that Lady might have a better chance at survival. We have just started the City of the Spider Queen module, and it is TOUGH. She really needs something to help with getting her dog to difficult places, and the mount ability will help. She HATES spiders and the module is pretty dark, so Sunni is already out of her element. Now she is becoming so weak in physical combat that she decided to take a couple of levels in Paladin Prestige for the save bonuses, immunity to fear, etc. I don't think she thought about the special mount. I feel that her character has been well thought and well-played (she does a journal after each session), and she doesn't powergame at all. She really doesn't care about the game rules that much, or know them enough to powergame. I think I might just convert her Druid Animal Companion ability to Special Mount right from level 1 of the custom cleric. d6 hp, wizard BAB, and poor weapon & armor proficiencies really should balance out a paladin mount and 6 skill points, do you think? That way, everything stays as close to the rules as possible (for a customized class that is).
Thorak 04-18-04, 11:22 AM	If she really, really just wants her dog, I'd suggest giving her either Animal Companion or Special Mount statistics at her combined level, but not both separate ones combined at class levels. And if you want a nifty houserule bit, perhaps give her dog the Celestial template instead of using the paladin levels to boost the power; it'll be a bigger boost in the short term at least, but it shouldn't be overpowering at 9th level.
Tintagel 04-18-04, 11:32 AM	Hey, wow! I never thought about the celestial thing. At lower levels, it could even have been half-celestial. I'll run that by my other players and see what they think about it. Thanks for the great ideas and feedback! [edit]: DOH, half-celestial is better than celestial! I had a brain fart there... So you mean tack on the celestial on top of the Animal Companion and ignore the special mount?
Thorak 04-18-04, 01:53 PM	Exactly; the special mount is supposed to come from a Celestial realm. So instead of coming from the Celestial realm, the AC takes on the characteristics of the Celestial realm itself. You lose the insta-summon ability, but it's probably a decent tradeoff.