Animal Companion Feats - Wolf [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animal Companion Feats - Wolf [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bazooka
11-20-04, 02:31 AM Ok, I've searched through the boards & books and have 2 questions. (And neither are about size advancment! :D )

1) According to the PHB3.5, the companion "gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster's Hit Dice."

If this is correct, then a Wolf companion who goes from 2-4 HD, and then 4-6HD, never gains any additional feats nor will it gain any additional skill points. According to the MM, Animals gain no additional feats for advancing and the skill points are set (a Wolf gets 12). Is this correct? If not, where is this disputed?

2) I have seen posted on the boards companions get a +1 stat bonus (as a character would) when they advance to 4HD, 8HD, 12HD, etc... I can't seem to find anything, anywhere to back this up.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
Lord Pendragon
11-20-04, 03:15 AM 1) According to the PHB3.5, the companion "gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster's Hit Dice."Correct.If this is correct, then a Wolf companion who goes from 2-4 HD, and then 4-6HD, never gains any additional feats nor will it gain any additional skill points. According to the MM, Animals gain no additional feats for advancing and the skill points are set (a Wolf gets 12). Is this correct? If not, where is this disputed?I'm not sure where you're reading this in the MM, but from the SRD:Feats
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does.Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and
ability score increases.Animal Type: An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate
capacity for language or culture.
Features: An animal has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—d8 Hit Dice.
—Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).
—Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves).
—Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits: An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
—Low-light vision.
—Alignment: Always neutral.
—Treasure: None.
—Proficient with its natural weapons only. A noncombative herbivore uses its natural weapons as a secondary attack. Such
attacks are made with a –5 penalty on the creature’s attack rolls, and the animal receives only 1/2 its Strength modifier as a
damage adjustment.
—Proficient with no armor unless trained for war.
—Animals eat, sleep, and breathe.An animal companion gains further abilities just as if it had been advanced in HD. The only thing it doesn't get is increased size. Nor can its Int ever be increased. Other than that, it gets ability increases and feats just as a character does.

Are you perhaps looking in the 3.0 MM?
Bazooka
11-20-04, 04:19 AM Are you perhaps looking in the 3.0 MM?
Ah HA! Why yes I am. lol
So I take it this is one of the things they changed in MM 3.5

Looking through your post...
Feats
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does.

Since I don't have the new MM, does this mean ALL creatures gain feats as a character, with their HD equal to their level? (i.e. 4HD = 4th lvl)

If this is so, when our 2HD Wolf advances to 4HD, it would gain +2 Skill points, 1 Feat, and a +1 stat bonus. (plus all the other cool stuff they get listed under the Druid companion section)
Thorak
11-20-04, 12:16 PM If this is so, when our 2HD Wolf advances to 4HD, it would gain +2 Skill points, 1 Feat, and a +1 stat bonus. (plus all the other cool stuff they get listed under the Druid companion section)
It gains the skill points and feat, but not the stat bonus. Because the Animal Companion section very specifically limits it to the skills and feats gained as if it had Advanced that number of HD. The AC doesn't actually Advance, so they don't get the rest of the abilities.
Bazooka
11-20-04, 01:06 PM Ah, I see. It only says Skills and Feats in the Companion section. I don't understand your last sentence though.
The AC doesn't actually Advance, so they don't get the rest of the abilities.
What do you mean? How would the AC advance?
Wolf72
11-20-04, 03:56 PM just thinking out loud here ...

but a wolf animal companion of a 20th lvl druid would have ...

14HD (+42hp from con)
14 Natural AC (2 starting +12 bonus) [total AC 30]
+4 feats (3rd, 6th, 9th, and 12th HD)
+12 skill points
+3 points to abilities (+1 str, dex & con are the ones I chose)
+10 BAB (second bite attack at +5, check animal companions for druids ... if they can't get multiattack, they gain a second attack at -5)
Saves: as 14th lvl character with good fort & reflex

str: 20 +5
dex: 22 +6
con: 16 +3
int: 2
wis: 12 +1
cha: 6

tricks: 6 (from int), +7 bonus tricks (additional MotW tricks are: accept armor, assist attack, assist track, home, follow, assist defend ... I think that's all of them).

throw on some magical equipment (+3 padded barding for one) and you can a fairly nasty helper/body guard.
Thorak
11-20-04, 06:12 PM Ah, I see. It only says Skills and Feats in the Companion section. I don't understand your last sentence though.

What do you mean? How would the AC advance?
The AC as in Animal Companion, not as in Armor Class.
toomre
11-20-04, 06:55 PM +3 points to abilities (+1 str, dex & con are the ones I chose)
+10 BAB (second bite attack at +5, check animal companions for druids ... fi they can't get multiattack, they gain a second attack at -5)They actually don't have the +3 to ability scores that you're mentioning, on the positive side though they do get 1.5 x str as bonus to damage since they only have a single natural weapon. He's perhaps good bodyguard, but it's moe optimal to replace most of the low level options as soon as you get access to the larger and dire animals at higher levels.
Wil Harvey
11-20-04, 07:13 PM Do you guys have some sort of proof about what you're saying? Is there any indication that an animal companion wouldn't get ability score increases? I can't see anything supporting that in the SRD.
Thorak
11-20-04, 08:46 PM Do you guys have some sort of proof about what you're saying? Is there any indication that an animal companion wouldn't get ability score increases? I can't see anything supporting that in the SRD.
Page 36 of the PHB, in the Animal Companion sidebar, first column, about halfway down. The section on "bonus HD". They're extra HD. The animal is not, in fact, changing, it's being boosted by the druid. Note the last line, how you gain skills and feats as normal for advancing. None of the other effects, just the skills and feats.

The FAQ also very specifically says so;
When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s) animal companion as the master’s level goes up, does the animal get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level,
the wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in the Monster Manual, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?
An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.
It's talking about size increase explicitly, but the same applies to all other aspects of Advancement as well. Except skills and feats, and that only because the sidebar specifically says you get that.
toomre
11-20-04, 09:04 PM I don't think this particular debate has been settled conclusively.

On the one hand, it seems that all the benefits of the extra HD were explicitly written in the animal companion section, so anything not mentioned in that section is not gained. There is some incidental support for this position in the form of Grishka the 6HD wolf from pg 66 of Complete Warrior.

On the other hand, even though the animal companion chapter explicitly stated the benefits of the extra HD, it didn't state that any other benefits normally associated with extra HD that have not been mentioned are not gained. There is some incidental support for this position in the form of Thuk the 5HD boar from pg 15 of Book of Exhalted Deeds.

I am going with Grishka. It seems to better align with the position that augmented animal companions are not the typical high HD specimens for that animal type, we know for a fact that the expected size increase does not occur, rather I think that the extra HD, BAB increase, feats, skills, etc are benefits gained from its long association with the druid.
Bazooka
11-21-04, 02:07 AM I agree. Creatures do NOT get the stat bonus. It never explicitly says they get it. Everything else they get is mentioned specifically. They don't get it normally and if they were allowed to take that bonus the PH or DMG would have mentioned it directly. Also, if it was an oversite, it would have been picked up in FAQ.
In any case, thanks for everyones input. Got all the details figured out now. These message boards rock. :cool:
Wil Harvey
11-21-04, 11:10 AM Again, I have to ask for actual proof that they don't get the additional stat points.

All anyone has shown is a FAQ ruling dealing with size increases.

Everything else points to allowing ACs (animal companions) to get the stat bonuses. Some say it's not mentioned in the AC sidebar, so they don't get it. I think it's the opposite. If it isn't explictly stated that they don't get it, then I'm giving it to them. The rules are clear in the Monster Manual about the benefits of adding hit dice (and no distinction is made about different sources of added hit dice that I could find). Unless something is explictly excluded, like the size increase from the FAQ, I'm going with the rules for adding hit dice in the Monster Manual.

Beyond that, looking at the rules as intended, I don't think it makes sense they'd want to exclude stat bonuses. I mean, size increases were obvious. The bonuses from that quickly unbalanced things. They made an oversight with that, and because of that, they cleared it up in the FAQ. No such thing has been done for stat bonuses, which points me to following the rules as written.

And to complete the trifecta, you look at balance. Size increases obviously affected this, but I don't see how a couple stat bonuses would.

I see no reason to disallow stat bonuses. At all.
Wil Harvey
11-21-04, 11:14 AM One more quick point: I think the animal companion sidebar was thrown in there to remind people that added hit dice have additional effects on an animal. I don't think it was there to state an exception to the rules in the Monster Manual. I think they were just listing the benefits, and forgot to mention stat bonuses. If you notice, nowhere in there does it say something like "this is different than the normal rules for progressing an animal", "make sure to take note of the differences between the standard rules and these", etc. In almost every other instance when they show an exception to the rules, they add a little blurb saying that this is different than the normal rules for a situation. I just don't see anything like that in this case.
ClementWillowbreaker
11-21-04, 11:20 AM Beat me to posting that. What he said.
Thorak
11-21-04, 02:56 PM Again, I have to ask for actual proof that they don't get the additional stat points.

All anyone has shown is a FAQ ruling dealing with size increases.

Everything else points to allowing ACs (animal companions) to get the stat bonuses. Some say it's not mentioned in the AC sidebar, so they don't get it. I think it's the opposite. If it isn't explictly stated that they don't get it, then I'm giving it to them. The rules are clear in the Monster Manual about the benefits of adding hit dice (and no distinction is made about different sources of added hit dice that I could find). Unless something is explictly excluded, like the size increase from the FAQ, I'm going with the rules for adding hit dice in the Monster Manual.

Beyond that, looking at the rules as intended, I don't think it makes sense they'd want to exclude stat bonuses. I mean, size increases were obvious. The bonuses from that quickly unbalanced things. They made an oversight with that, and because of that, they cleared it up in the FAQ. No such thing has been done for stat bonuses, which points me to following the rules as written.

And to complete the trifecta, you look at balance. Size increases obviously affected this, but I don't see how a couple stat bonuses would.

I see no reason to disallow stat bonuses. At all.
I fail to see how you can disregard some of the bonuses of advancement as being "not intended", and at the same time think the stat bonuses aren't. The animal companion rules never state the creature is being Advanced. Advancement is not the only source of extra HD. And therefore, the fact that an animal companion gains extra HD does not mean it's being Advanced, in any way.

Except that it gains skills and feats at the same rate. Which is explicitly mentioned.

Seriously, this argument is like trying to imply that gaining character levels, and therefore HD, means you're Advancing your race. There's simply no basis whatsoever to jump to that conclusion, beyond the fact that both involve increasing HD.
Pinky's brain
11-21-04, 03:25 PM Well the FAQ makes it pretty plain that the larger size of certain animals is NEVER attained through leveling, not for normal beasts either. So discounting that isnt the same as discounting stat increases.

BTW is it possible to take a martial weapon profiency feat for your Ape, deck him out in a mithril chain shirt (till he can get the necessary armor proficiency to wear something better) and have him fight with a manufactured weapon?
Wil Harvey
11-21-04, 03:52 PM I fail to see how you can disregard some of the bonuses of advancement as being "not intended", and at the same time think the stat bonuses aren't. The animal companion rules never state the creature is being Advanced. Advancement is not the only source of extra HD. And therefore, the fact that an animal companion gains extra HD does not mean it's being Advanced, in any way.

Except that it gains skills and feats at the same rate. Which is explicitly mentioned.

Seriously, this argument is like trying to imply that gaining character levels, and therefore HD, means you're Advancing your race. There's simply no basis whatsoever to jump to that conclusion, beyond the fact that both involve increasing HD.

Show me in the rules where it makes those distinctions. Seriously. Show me in the rules where adding hit dice from an animal companion is different than adding hit dice any other way. Please, show me where it says that, because I must be completely missing it.
Wil Harvey
11-21-04, 03:55 PM Increased Hit Dice: Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.

That's from the SRD.

According to the SRD, when you add hit dice, you advance a creature. It doesn't say you can add hit dice by Advancement as one possible way, as is what you are saying.

Listen, I have no attachment to this issue. If you're right, fine. I just want to know where in the rules it says what you're saying.
icedrake
11-21-04, 06:00 PM I don't think the Druid/Ranger's animal companion gains extra stat bonus b/c its association with the druid/ranger gives it a +6 bonus to str and dex over twenty levels. Way better than what any normal animal could get over the advancement of +12 HD.
Wolf72
11-21-04, 06:47 PM Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.

I don't care either way, I was just going on the basis that the critter gained HD therefore it gained levels. I'm not a big 3.5 fan, but one thing I do like is that the PTB made character/monster/animal advancement the same across the board.

in the Animal companion description:
Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

I think they could have left the BAB explanation out, as animals BAB increases using the mid range anyway (rogue, cleric, monk, druid, bard, etc.)
Wolf72
11-21-04, 06:52 PM They actually don't have the +3 to ability scores that you're mentioning, on the positive side though they do get 1.5 x str as bonus to damage since they only have a single natural weapon. He's perhaps good bodyguard, but it's moe optimal to replace most of the low level options as soon as you get access to the larger and dire animals at higher levels.

stat increases still debateable ...

good point on dmg though, and for those interested in where the extra attack comes from here:
Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.

(emphasis mine)

[edit: even without stat bonuses, that wolf's armor class will still be 29!]
Thorak
11-21-04, 11:17 PM Show me in the rules where it makes those distinctions. Seriously. Show me in the rules where adding hit dice from an animal companion is different than adding hit dice any other way. Please, show me where it says that, because I must be completely missing it.
Don't need the rules. Because I only need logic. Just because A is B (animal companions gain extra Hit Dice), does not and C is B (Advanced animals gain extra Hit Dice) does not mean that A is C. It may be, but you'd have to provide other evidence to support that claim.

The same way apples are red, and stop signs are red, but an apple isn't a stop sign, nor does the fact that both are red make them the same.

Though if you want a rule-based answer; Advancing happens when you increase a creature's Hit Dice. An animal companion's Hit Dice aren't being increased, they're gaining extra Hit Dice because of the druid. If a 20th level druid has a Wolf companion with 14 Hit Dice, 2 natural and 12 bonus HD, if he dismisses it as a companion it reverts to being a 2HD Wolf. Because they're bonus, extra HD it gains for being an animal companion; it's own HD are not being increased.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bazooka 11-20-04, 02:31 AM	Ok, I've searched through the boards & books and have 2 questions. (And neither are about size advancment! :D ) 1) According to the PHB3.5, the companion "gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster's Hit Dice." If this is correct, then a Wolf companion who goes from 2-4 HD, and then 4-6HD, never gains any additional feats nor will it gain any additional skill points. According to the MM, Animals gain no additional feats for advancing and the skill points are set (a Wolf gets 12). Is this correct? If not, where is this disputed? 2) I have seen posted on the boards companions get a +1 stat bonus (as a character would) when they advance to 4HD, 8HD, 12HD, etc... I can't seem to find anything, anywhere to back this up. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
Lord Pendragon 11-20-04, 03:15 AM	1) According to the PHB3.5, the companion "gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster's Hit Dice."Correct.If this is correct, then a Wolf companion who goes from 2-4 HD, and then 4-6HD, never gains any additional feats nor will it gain any additional skill points. According to the MM, Animals gain no additional feats for advancing and the skill points are set (a Wolf gets 12). Is this correct? If not, where is this disputed?I'm not sure where you're reading this in the MM, but from the SRD:Feats The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does.Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.Animal Type: An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture. Features: An animal has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —d8 Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves). —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). —Low-light vision. —Alignment: Always neutral. —Treasure: None. —Proficient with its natural weapons only. A noncombative herbivore uses its natural weapons as a secondary attack. Such attacks are made with a –5 penalty on the creature’s attack rolls, and the animal receives only 1/2 its Strength modifier as a damage adjustment. —Proficient with no armor unless trained for war. —Animals eat, sleep, and breathe.An animal companion gains further abilities just as if it had been advanced in HD. The only thing it doesn't get is increased size. Nor can its Int ever be increased. Other than that, it gets ability increases and feats just as a character does. Are you perhaps looking in the 3.0 MM?
Bazooka 11-20-04, 04:19 AM	Are you perhaps looking in the 3.0 MM? Ah HA! Why yes I am. lol So I take it this is one of the things they changed in MM 3.5 Looking through your post... Feats The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Since I don't have the new MM, does this mean ALL creatures gain feats as a character, with their HD equal to their level? (i.e. 4HD = 4th lvl) If this is so, when our 2HD Wolf advances to 4HD, it would gain +2 Skill points, 1 Feat, and a +1 stat bonus. (plus all the other cool stuff they get listed under the Druid companion section)
Thorak 11-20-04, 12:16 PM	If this is so, when our 2HD Wolf advances to 4HD, it would gain +2 Skill points, 1 Feat, and a +1 stat bonus. (plus all the other cool stuff they get listed under the Druid companion section) It gains the skill points and feat, but not the stat bonus. Because the Animal Companion section very specifically limits it to the skills and feats gained as if it had Advanced that number of HD. The AC doesn't actually Advance, so they don't get the rest of the abilities.
Bazooka 11-20-04, 01:06 PM	Ah, I see. It only says Skills and Feats in the Companion section. I don't understand your last sentence though. The AC doesn't actually Advance, so they don't get the rest of the abilities. What do you mean? How would the AC advance?
Wolf72 11-20-04, 03:56 PM	just thinking out loud here ... but a wolf animal companion of a 20th lvl druid would have ... 14HD (+42hp from con) 14 Natural AC (2 starting +12 bonus) [total AC 30] +4 feats (3rd, 6th, 9th, and 12th HD) +12 skill points +3 points to abilities (+1 str, dex & con are the ones I chose) +10 BAB (second bite attack at +5, check animal companions for druids ... if they can't get multiattack, they gain a second attack at -5) Saves: as 14th lvl character with good fort & reflex str: 20 +5 dex: 22 +6 con: 16 +3 int: 2 wis: 12 +1 cha: 6 tricks: 6 (from int), +7 bonus tricks (additional MotW tricks are: accept armor, assist attack, assist track, home, follow, assist defend ... I think that's all of them). throw on some magical equipment (+3 padded barding for one) and you can a fairly nasty helper/body guard.
Thorak 11-20-04, 06:12 PM	Ah, I see. It only says Skills and Feats in the Companion section. I don't understand your last sentence though. What do you mean? How would the AC advance? The AC as in Animal Companion, not as in Armor Class.
toomre 11-20-04, 06:55 PM	+3 points to abilities (+1 str, dex & con are the ones I chose) +10 BAB (second bite attack at +5, check animal companions for druids ... fi they can't get multiattack, they gain a second attack at -5)They actually don't have the +3 to ability scores that you're mentioning, on the positive side though they do get 1.5 x str as bonus to damage since they only have a single natural weapon. He's perhaps good bodyguard, but it's moe optimal to replace most of the low level options as soon as you get access to the larger and dire animals at higher levels.
Wil Harvey 11-20-04, 07:13 PM	Do you guys have some sort of proof about what you're saying? Is there any indication that an animal companion wouldn't get ability score increases? I can't see anything supporting that in the SRD.
Thorak 11-20-04, 08:46 PM	Do you guys have some sort of proof about what you're saying? Is there any indication that an animal companion wouldn't get ability score increases? I can't see anything supporting that in the SRD. Page 36 of the PHB, in the Animal Companion sidebar, first column, about halfway down. The section on "bonus HD". They're extra HD. The animal is not, in fact, changing, it's being boosted by the druid. Note the last line, how you gain skills and feats as normal for advancing. None of the other effects, just the skills and feats. The FAQ also very specifically says so; When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s) animal companion as the master’s level goes up, does the animal get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in the Monster Manual, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large? An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds. It's talking about size increase explicitly, but the same applies to all other aspects of Advancement as well. Except skills and feats, and that only because the sidebar specifically says you get that.
toomre 11-20-04, 09:04 PM	I don't think this particular debate has been settled conclusively. On the one hand, it seems that all the benefits of the extra HD were explicitly written in the animal companion section, so anything not mentioned in that section is not gained. There is some incidental support for this position in the form of Grishka the 6HD wolf from pg 66 of Complete Warrior. On the other hand, even though the animal companion chapter explicitly stated the benefits of the extra HD, it didn't state that any other benefits normally associated with extra HD that have not been mentioned are not gained. There is some incidental support for this position in the form of Thuk the 5HD boar from pg 15 of Book of Exhalted Deeds. I am going with Grishka. It seems to better align with the position that augmented animal companions are not the typical high HD specimens for that animal type, we know for a fact that the expected size increase does not occur, rather I think that the extra HD, BAB increase, feats, skills, etc are benefits gained from its long association with the druid.
Bazooka 11-21-04, 02:07 AM	I agree. Creatures do NOT get the stat bonus. It never explicitly says they get it. Everything else they get is mentioned specifically. They don't get it normally and if they were allowed to take that bonus the PH or DMG would have mentioned it directly. Also, if it was an oversite, it would have been picked up in FAQ. In any case, thanks for everyones input. Got all the details figured out now. These message boards rock. :cool:
Wil Harvey 11-21-04, 11:10 AM	Again, I have to ask for actual proof that they don't get the additional stat points. All anyone has shown is a FAQ ruling dealing with size increases. Everything else points to allowing ACs (animal companions) to get the stat bonuses. Some say it's not mentioned in the AC sidebar, so they don't get it. I think it's the opposite. If it isn't explictly stated that they don't get it, then I'm giving it to them. The rules are clear in the Monster Manual about the benefits of adding hit dice (and no distinction is made about different sources of added hit dice that I could find). Unless something is explictly excluded, like the size increase from the FAQ, I'm going with the rules for adding hit dice in the Monster Manual. Beyond that, looking at the rules as intended, I don't think it makes sense they'd want to exclude stat bonuses. I mean, size increases were obvious. The bonuses from that quickly unbalanced things. They made an oversight with that, and because of that, they cleared it up in the FAQ. No such thing has been done for stat bonuses, which points me to following the rules as written. And to complete the trifecta, you look at balance. Size increases obviously affected this, but I don't see how a couple stat bonuses would. I see no reason to disallow stat bonuses. At all.
Wil Harvey 11-21-04, 11:14 AM	One more quick point: I think the animal companion sidebar was thrown in there to remind people that added hit dice have additional effects on an animal. I don't think it was there to state an exception to the rules in the Monster Manual. I think they were just listing the benefits, and forgot to mention stat bonuses. If you notice, nowhere in there does it say something like "this is different than the normal rules for progressing an animal", "make sure to take note of the differences between the standard rules and these", etc. In almost every other instance when they show an exception to the rules, they add a little blurb saying that this is different than the normal rules for a situation. I just don't see anything like that in this case.
ClementWillowbreaker 11-21-04, 11:20 AM	Beat me to posting that. What he said.
Thorak 11-21-04, 02:56 PM	Again, I have to ask for actual proof that they don't get the additional stat points. All anyone has shown is a FAQ ruling dealing with size increases. Everything else points to allowing ACs (animal companions) to get the stat bonuses. Some say it's not mentioned in the AC sidebar, so they don't get it. I think it's the opposite. If it isn't explictly stated that they don't get it, then I'm giving it to them. The rules are clear in the Monster Manual about the benefits of adding hit dice (and no distinction is made about different sources of added hit dice that I could find). Unless something is explictly excluded, like the size increase from the FAQ, I'm going with the rules for adding hit dice in the Monster Manual. Beyond that, looking at the rules as intended, I don't think it makes sense they'd want to exclude stat bonuses. I mean, size increases were obvious. The bonuses from that quickly unbalanced things. They made an oversight with that, and because of that, they cleared it up in the FAQ. No such thing has been done for stat bonuses, which points me to following the rules as written. And to complete the trifecta, you look at balance. Size increases obviously affected this, but I don't see how a couple stat bonuses would. I see no reason to disallow stat bonuses. At all. I fail to see how you can disregard some of the bonuses of advancement as being "not intended", and at the same time think the stat bonuses aren't. The animal companion rules never state the creature is being Advanced. Advancement is not the only source of extra HD. And therefore, the fact that an animal companion gains extra HD does not mean it's being Advanced, in any way. Except that it gains skills and feats at the same rate. Which is explicitly mentioned. Seriously, this argument is like trying to imply that gaining character levels, and therefore HD, means you're Advancing your race. There's simply no basis whatsoever to jump to that conclusion, beyond the fact that both involve increasing HD.
Pinky's brain 11-21-04, 03:25 PM	Well the FAQ makes it pretty plain that the larger size of certain animals is NEVER attained through leveling, not for normal beasts either. So discounting that isnt the same as discounting stat increases. BTW is it possible to take a martial weapon profiency feat for your Ape, deck him out in a mithril chain shirt (till he can get the necessary armor proficiency to wear something better) and have him fight with a manufactured weapon?
Wil Harvey 11-21-04, 03:52 PM	I fail to see how you can disregard some of the bonuses of advancement as being "not intended", and at the same time think the stat bonuses aren't. The animal companion rules never state the creature is being Advanced. Advancement is not the only source of extra HD. And therefore, the fact that an animal companion gains extra HD does not mean it's being Advanced, in any way. Except that it gains skills and feats at the same rate. Which is explicitly mentioned. Seriously, this argument is like trying to imply that gaining character levels, and therefore HD, means you're Advancing your race. There's simply no basis whatsoever to jump to that conclusion, beyond the fact that both involve increasing HD. Show me in the rules where it makes those distinctions. Seriously. Show me in the rules where adding hit dice from an animal companion is different than adding hit dice any other way. Please, show me where it says that, because I must be completely missing it.
Wil Harvey 11-21-04, 03:55 PM	Increased Hit Dice: Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows. That's from the SRD. According to the SRD, when you add hit dice, you advance a creature. It doesn't say you can add hit dice by Advancement as one possible way, as is what you are saying. Listen, I have no attachment to this issue. If you're right, fine. I just want to know where in the rules it says what you're saying.
icedrake 11-21-04, 06:00 PM	I don't think the Druid/Ranger's animal companion gains extra stat bonus b/c its association with the druid/ranger gives it a +6 bonus to str and dex over twenty levels. Way better than what any normal animal could get over the advancement of +12 HD.
Wolf72 11-21-04, 06:47 PM	Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores. I don't care either way, I was just going on the basis that the critter gained HD therefore it gained levels. I'm not a big 3.5 fan, but one thing I do like is that the PTB made character/monster/animal advancement the same across the board. in the Animal companion description: Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice. I think they could have left the BAB explanation out, as animals BAB increases using the mid range anyway (rogue, cleric, monk, druid, bard, etc.)
Wolf72 11-21-04, 06:52 PM	They actually don't have the +3 to ability scores that you're mentioning, on the positive side though they do get 1.5 x str as bonus to damage since they only have a single natural weapon. He's perhaps good bodyguard, but it's moe optimal to replace most of the low level options as soon as you get access to the larger and dire animals at higher levels. stat increases still debateable ... good point on dmg though, and for those interested in where the extra attack comes from here: Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty. (emphasis mine) [edit: even without stat bonuses, that wolf's armor class will still be 29!]
Thorak 11-21-04, 11:17 PM	Show me in the rules where it makes those distinctions. Seriously. Show me in the rules where adding hit dice from an animal companion is different than adding hit dice any other way. Please, show me where it says that, because I must be completely missing it. Don't need the rules. Because I only need logic. Just because A is B (animal companions gain extra Hit Dice), does not and C is B (Advanced animals gain extra Hit Dice) does not mean that A is C. It may be, but you'd have to provide other evidence to support that claim. The same way apples are red, and stop signs are red, but an apple isn't a stop sign, nor does the fact that both are red make them the same. Though if you want a rule-based answer; Advancing happens when you increase a creature's Hit Dice. An animal companion's Hit Dice aren't being increased, they're gaining extra Hit Dice because of the druid. If a 20th level druid has a Wolf companion with 14 Hit Dice, 2 natural and 12 bonus HD, if he dismisses it as a companion it reverts to being a 2HD Wolf. Because they're bonus, extra HD it gains for being an animal companion; it's own HD are not being increased.