Animal companion ruling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animal companion ruling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pegasos989
05-23-06, 05:03 AM So... I am fairly certain that animal companion that advances doesn't gain bigger size, etc. and when i did some google search on these forums, I found more evidence of it.

However, I can't find where (book/page) this is said in rules?
travellersside
05-23-06, 05:22 AM This is based on a flawed premise: Namely that they advance in the first place. They don't.

Instead, animal companions gain bonus HD. While this sounds similar, it isn't. For example, a druid can have an eagle as animal companion, which is normally 1HD, but advances up to 3. However, a level 20 druid would give it 12 bonus HD - far more than the advancement allows.

So, the bonus HD are just that. They give normal bonuses for their type, the animal gains a few other things too, as per the companion table, but it doesn't actually change size.
Clawhound
05-23-06, 09:42 AM Animal companions follow the rules under Druid Animal Companions. No other rules apply, including those of the MM. Thus, if it's not there, then it ain't there.
Thorak
05-23-06, 11:57 AM This is based on a flawed premise: Namely that they advance in the first place. They don't.

Instead, animal companions gain bonus HD. While this sounds similar, it isn't. For example, a druid can have an eagle as animal companion, which is normally 1HD, but advances up to 3. However, a level 20 druid would give it 12 bonus HD - far more than the advancement allows.

So, the bonus HD are just that. They give normal bonuses for their type, the animal gains a few other things too, as per the companion table, but it doesn't actually change size.
Right. Advancement isn't the default result of gaining a HD. It's a specific method of gaining HD. Two other, completely separate methods would be gaining class levels, or being the animal companion of a higher-level Druid.

You don't become Large for the same reason you don't grow by increasing your class level.
weblife
05-24-06, 03:57 AM However, a level 20 druid would give it 12 bonus HD - far more than the advancement allows...

... but it doesn't actually change size.

That is an assumption you are making.

The HD and size advancement given in the monster manuals, are for common variations within the species. Its not a limit for the HD the creature can gain, from bonus HD or Class Levels if intelligent enough.

Also, when using the rules for Improving Monsters on the animals from the Druid list, in conjunction with the Druid level bonuses, the end result is close to comparable with taking a larger dire version from the later list.

In short, its not unreasonable.

More importantly, the eagle is the only flying creature on the list. If you do not allow it to grow, like any natural eagle of such a HD would, it will be oddly uncomparable to natural eagles that may well be physically larger.

Moreover, the animal companion is a natural animal. QUOTE: "...completely typical for its kind except as noted below."

- Supporting that advancement should entail all the derived benefits for its species. That being possible growth in size, feats at every 3 HD, Ability point every 4 HD, skill points modified by INT (often just 1 pr. HD due to this).

The animals on the list also gain special abilities, that cannot be gained by a creature from the level 1 list. Such as Pounce, Disease and a couple of other things. Meaning that each animal, from any table of druid animals, has its merits depending on situation. - Which again supports the reasonable deduction that the level 1 versions at least do gain the benefits of incresed HD like any creature of their kind would.

A Wizard or Sorcerer gains a familiar, barring getting Improved Familiar or death, they plan to stick with their familiar for life.

Interpreting Druid companion rules narrowly, and disregarding the normal side benefits of HD progression will most likely force the Druid to exchange with beloved companion several times during his career. That makes no sense.

Again, with Familiars, its specifically stated in the HD description that it doesn't gain them, but is treated as having them in some cases. This wording is different with the animal companion who actually gains them. It even mentions:

"Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice."

This wording is almost exactly the same as in the Improving monsters section:

"As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type."

And only further down is the sentence: "A creature may become larger when its Hit Dice are increased (the new size is noted parenthetically in the monster’s Advancement entry)."

Therefore, it seems natural to treat animal companions are normal animals who gain bonus HD and additional bonuses for being animal companions. Instead of the weakest version of each animal race, buffed by only the companion granted extra abilities.
travellersside
05-24-06, 06:00 AM That is an assumption you are making.
<Sigh> I can't escape the feeling that you just plain didn't read what I wrote, which would explain a great deal.

The HD and size advancement given in the monster manuals, are for common variations within the species. Its not a limit for the HD the creature can gain, from bonus HD or Class Levels if intelligent enough.
<Looks confused>And I never said otherwise. The natural advancement for a creature may include size changes at certain points. Since this is not a natural progression by advancement, but bonus HD provided by virtue of being a Companion, the limit doesn't apply.

Also, when using the rules for Improving Monsters on the animals from the Druid list, in conjunction with the Druid level bonuses, the end result is close to comparable with taking a larger dire version from the later list.
Irrelevant. This is just how they end up - if you want to assume that they essentially become dire critters, just get hold of one of the many homebrewed Dire Templates and work out some way of applying it.

In short, its not unreasonable.

More importantly, the eagle is the only flying creature on the list. If you do not allow it to grow, like any natural eagle of such a HD would, it will be oddly uncomparable to natural eagles that may well be physically larger.
Again, irrelevant. The eagle is just the first example that came into my head. Yes, it's naturally a small animal, and yes, you can find medium adnvanced eagles, but, since we're using your criteria of 'reasonableness', which seems to be noticably absent from D&D ;) , we should note that the standard MM entry is for a normal adult member of the typical species. If there's a 2HD medium eagle out there, it's not likely to be an older eagle, but probably a different species that naturally comes with 2HD and is normally larger than the puny 1HD ones. That's reasonable. What's unreasonable is to claim that an adult that reaches normal adult size at about 3' tall can keep growing another couple of feet as it gets older - animals don't really do that.

Moreover, the animal companion is a natural animal. QUOTE: "...completely typical for its kind except as noted below."

- Supporting that advancement should entail all the derived benefits for its species. That being possible growth in size, feats at every 3 HD, Ability point every 4 HD, skill points modified by INT (often just 1 pr. HD due to this).
Actually, it doesn't support anything. In fact, it specifically states what those bonus HD give:

Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

And that's it. Size doesn't enter into it.

A Wizard or Sorcerer gains a familiar, barring getting Improved Familiar or death, they plan to stick with their familiar for life.
And if they lose one, they can't have another for a year, and suffer xp penalties. If a druid loses a companion, they suffer what exactly? Roleplay-wise they should be unhappy and grieving, but where's the penalty? A familiar is completely different, and shouldn't be used as a comparison. Actually, druids get a far better deal than mages do - The wizard's ability of "Summon easily killable bundle of your xp" ('familiar', for short) is not really very good, since they die so easily. Also, whoever originally decided that it would be great for familiars to be able to deliver touch attacks, and that they were therefore incredibly powerful, obviously never realised that, due to their size, they're going to draw an AoO just by entering their target's square, before they even get a chance to deliver their attack spell. There are feats to fix this, but as is, they're of limited use.

Interpreting Druid companion rules narrowly, and disregarding the normal side benefits of HD progression will most likely force the Druid to exchange with beloved companion several times during his career. That makes no sense.
Again, sense? What's sense got to do with it? Yes, they're going to upgrade their companions frequently, if only because they die. Bear in mind that it may well be appropriate to dump your companion in favour of a more useful one, based on what you're doing. For example, if you're leaving a forested area and heading into the mountains, leaving your beloved companion in its own environment may well be more acceptable than dragging it into places that it isn't suited to.

This wording [a reference to the bonus HD entry] is almost exactly the same as in the Improving monsters section:
And here's the crux of the matter. The wording is almost exactly the same, but for one rather significant difference - which happens to be the subject in question. The druid entry doesn't reference the MM, instead it repeats the relevant parts, leaving out size changes, because they don't apply. If they did apply, they'd be listed with all the other benefits.
weblife
05-24-06, 07:14 AM We are using the very same sections of the rules, and come to different conclusions.

In the Improving monsters section, size is also not mentioned in the HD improving relevant text. Its merely a byproduct of increasing the HD of a given type of monster. Some increase in size, others do not.

Until this issue is cleared up in either errata or official statement from the designers, we will not be able to agree on the correct interpretation.

And thats the important part. As long as there is an irrefuteable point of contention, people can play with whatever conclusion they adhere to.
Thorak
05-24-06, 09:29 AM We are using the very same sections of the rules, and come to different conclusions.

In the Improving monsters section, size is also not mentioned in the HD improving relevant text. Its merely a byproduct of increasing the HD of a given type of monster. Some increase in size, others do not.
No, size increase is part of Advancement.

Not all hit dice gain is Advancement.

Specifically, animal companion bonus HD are not Advancement.

No Advancement, no size increase from HD gain.
Until this issue is cleared up in either errata or official statement from the designers, we will not be able to agree on the correct interpretation.

And thats the important part. As long as there is an irrefuteable point of contention, people can play with whatever conclusion they adhere to.
How about the official WotC FAQ?

When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s) animal companion as the master’s level goes up, does the animal get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in the Monster Manual, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?
An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.
travellersside
05-24-06, 12:03 PM Nicely done. A good, clean ending. Thank you.
Darth Sephiroth
05-24-06, 01:37 PM You could easily houserule a feat that grants your Animal Companion advancement by so much (Perhaps replace the Toughness feat with something that does that).

Animal Advancement
Occasionally a Druids companion gets more powerful than most would expect.
Prerequisites: The creature must be treated as an Animal Companion or similar effect (such as the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat)
Benefit: The animal is treated as if it's Animal Companion based HD are standard advancement HD for the purposes of Size (See MM).
Special: This feat may only be selected when the Animal Companion would gain a feat from Animal Companion advancement.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pegasos989 05-23-06, 05:03 AM	So... I am fairly certain that animal companion that advances doesn't gain bigger size, etc. and when i did some google search on these forums, I found more evidence of it. However, I can't find where (book/page) this is said in rules?
travellersside 05-23-06, 05:22 AM	This is based on a flawed premise: Namely that they advance in the first place. They don't. Instead, animal companions gain bonus HD. While this sounds similar, it isn't. For example, a druid can have an eagle as animal companion, which is normally 1HD, but advances up to 3. However, a level 20 druid would give it 12 bonus HD - far more than the advancement allows. So, the bonus HD are just that. They give normal bonuses for their type, the animal gains a few other things too, as per the companion table, but it doesn't actually change size.
Clawhound 05-23-06, 09:42 AM	Animal companions follow the rules under Druid Animal Companions. No other rules apply, including those of the MM. Thus, if it's not there, then it ain't there.
Thorak 05-23-06, 11:57 AM	This is based on a flawed premise: Namely that they advance in the first place. They don't. Instead, animal companions gain bonus HD. While this sounds similar, it isn't. For example, a druid can have an eagle as animal companion, which is normally 1HD, but advances up to 3. However, a level 20 druid would give it 12 bonus HD - far more than the advancement allows. So, the bonus HD are just that. They give normal bonuses for their type, the animal gains a few other things too, as per the companion table, but it doesn't actually change size. Right. Advancement isn't the default result of gaining a HD. It's a specific method of gaining HD. Two other, completely separate methods would be gaining class levels, or being the animal companion of a higher-level Druid. You don't become Large for the same reason you don't grow by increasing your class level.
weblife 05-24-06, 03:57 AM	However, a level 20 druid would give it 12 bonus HD - far more than the advancement allows... ... but it doesn't actually change size. That is an assumption you are making. The HD and size advancement given in the monster manuals, are for common variations within the species. Its not a limit for the HD the creature can gain, from bonus HD or Class Levels if intelligent enough. Also, when using the rules for Improving Monsters on the animals from the Druid list, in conjunction with the Druid level bonuses, the end result is close to comparable with taking a larger dire version from the later list. In short, its not unreasonable. More importantly, the eagle is the only flying creature on the list. If you do not allow it to grow, like any natural eagle of such a HD would, it will be oddly uncomparable to natural eagles that may well be physically larger. Moreover, the animal companion is a natural animal. QUOTE: "...completely typical for its kind except as noted below." - Supporting that advancement should entail all the derived benefits for its species. That being possible growth in size, feats at every 3 HD, Ability point every 4 HD, skill points modified by INT (often just 1 pr. HD due to this). The animals on the list also gain special abilities, that cannot be gained by a creature from the level 1 list. Such as Pounce, Disease and a couple of other things. Meaning that each animal, from any table of druid animals, has its merits depending on situation. - Which again supports the reasonable deduction that the level 1 versions at least do gain the benefits of incresed HD like any creature of their kind would. A Wizard or Sorcerer gains a familiar, barring getting Improved Familiar or death, they plan to stick with their familiar for life. Interpreting Druid companion rules narrowly, and disregarding the normal side benefits of HD progression will most likely force the Druid to exchange with beloved companion several times during his career. That makes no sense. Again, with Familiars, its specifically stated in the HD description that it doesn't gain them, but is treated as having them in some cases. This wording is different with the animal companion who actually gains them. It even mentions: "Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice." This wording is almost exactly the same as in the Improving monsters section: "As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type." And only further down is the sentence: "A creature may become larger when its Hit Dice are increased (the new size is noted parenthetically in the monster’s Advancement entry)." Therefore, it seems natural to treat animal companions are normal animals who gain bonus HD and additional bonuses for being animal companions. Instead of the weakest version of each animal race, buffed by only the companion granted extra abilities.
travellersside 05-24-06, 06:00 AM	That is an assumption you are making. <Sigh> I can't escape the feeling that you just plain didn't read what I wrote, which would explain a great deal. The HD and size advancement given in the monster manuals, are for common variations within the species. Its not a limit for the HD the creature can gain, from bonus HD or Class Levels if intelligent enough. <Looks confused>And I never said otherwise. The natural advancement for a creature may include size changes at certain points. Since this is not a natural progression by advancement, but bonus HD provided by virtue of being a Companion, the limit doesn't apply. Also, when using the rules for Improving Monsters on the animals from the Druid list, in conjunction with the Druid level bonuses, the end result is close to comparable with taking a larger dire version from the later list. Irrelevant. This is just how they end up - if you want to assume that they essentially become dire critters, just get hold of one of the many homebrewed Dire Templates and work out some way of applying it. In short, its not unreasonable. More importantly, the eagle is the only flying creature on the list. If you do not allow it to grow, like any natural eagle of such a HD would, it will be oddly uncomparable to natural eagles that may well be physically larger. Again, irrelevant. The eagle is just the first example that came into my head. Yes, it's naturally a small animal, and yes, you can find medium adnvanced eagles, but, since we're using your criteria of 'reasonableness', which seems to be noticably absent from D&D ;) , we should note that the standard MM entry is for a normal adult member of the typical species. If there's a 2HD medium eagle out there, it's not likely to be an older eagle, but probably a different species that naturally comes with 2HD and is normally larger than the puny 1HD ones. That's reasonable. What's unreasonable is to claim that an adult that reaches normal adult size at about 3' tall can keep growing another couple of feet as it gets older - animals don't really do that. Moreover, the animal companion is a natural animal. QUOTE: "...completely typical for its kind except as noted below." - Supporting that advancement should entail all the derived benefits for its species. That being possible growth in size, feats at every 3 HD, Ability point every 4 HD, skill points modified by INT (often just 1 pr. HD due to this). Actually, it doesn't support anything. In fact, it specifically states what those bonus HD give: Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice. And that's it. Size doesn't enter into it. A Wizard or Sorcerer gains a familiar, barring getting Improved Familiar or death, they plan to stick with their familiar for life. And if they lose one, they can't have another for a year, and suffer xp penalties. If a druid loses a companion, they suffer what exactly? Roleplay-wise they should be unhappy and grieving, but where's the penalty? A familiar is completely different, and shouldn't be used as a comparison. Actually, druids get a far better deal than mages do - The wizard's ability of "Summon easily killable bundle of your xp" ('familiar', for short) is not really very good, since they die so easily. Also, whoever originally decided that it would be great for familiars to be able to deliver touch attacks, and that they were therefore incredibly powerful, obviously never realised that, due to their size, they're going to draw an AoO just by entering their target's square, before they even get a chance to deliver their attack spell. There are feats to fix this, but as is, they're of limited use. Interpreting Druid companion rules narrowly, and disregarding the normal side benefits of HD progression will most likely force the Druid to exchange with beloved companion several times during his career. That makes no sense. Again, sense? What's sense got to do with it? Yes, they're going to upgrade their companions frequently, if only because they die. Bear in mind that it may well be appropriate to dump your companion in favour of a more useful one, based on what you're doing. For example, if you're leaving a forested area and heading into the mountains, leaving your beloved companion in its own environment may well be more acceptable than dragging it into places that it isn't suited to. This wording [a reference to the bonus HD entry] is almost exactly the same as in the Improving monsters section: And here's the crux of the matter. The wording is almost exactly the same, but for one rather significant difference - which happens to be the subject in question. The druid entry doesn't reference the MM, instead it repeats the relevant parts, leaving out size changes, because they don't apply. If they did apply, they'd be listed with all the other benefits.
weblife 05-24-06, 07:14 AM	We are using the very same sections of the rules, and come to different conclusions. In the Improving monsters section, size is also not mentioned in the HD improving relevant text. Its merely a byproduct of increasing the HD of a given type of monster. Some increase in size, others do not. Until this issue is cleared up in either errata or official statement from the designers, we will not be able to agree on the correct interpretation. And thats the important part. As long as there is an irrefuteable point of contention, people can play with whatever conclusion they adhere to.
Thorak 05-24-06, 09:29 AM	We are using the very same sections of the rules, and come to different conclusions. In the Improving monsters section, size is also not mentioned in the HD improving relevant text. Its merely a byproduct of increasing the HD of a given type of monster. Some increase in size, others do not. No, size increase is part of Advancement. Not all hit dice gain is Advancement. Specifically, animal companion bonus HD are not Advancement. No Advancement, no size increase from HD gain. Until this issue is cleared up in either errata or official statement from the designers, we will not be able to agree on the correct interpretation. And thats the important part. As long as there is an irrefuteable point of contention, people can play with whatever conclusion they adhere to. How about the official WotC FAQ? When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s) animal companion as the master’s level goes up, does the animal get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in the Monster Manual, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large? An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.
travellersside 05-24-06, 12:03 PM	Nicely done. A good, clean ending. Thank you.
Darth Sephiroth 05-24-06, 01:37 PM	You could easily houserule a feat that grants your Animal Companion advancement by so much (Perhaps replace the Toughness feat with something that does that). Animal Advancement Occasionally a Druids companion gets more powerful than most would expect. Prerequisites: The creature must be treated as an Animal Companion or similar effect (such as the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat) Benefit: The animal is treated as if it's Animal Companion based HD are standard advancement HD for the purposes of Size (See MM). Special: This feat may only be selected when the Animal Companion would gain a feat from Animal Companion advancement.