Animal Companions and BAB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animal Companions and BAB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vanulf
08-25-05, 07:44 PM My Druid recently turned 9th level and I'm trying to figure out the progression for my Brown Bear companion. According to the PHB an animal companion has a BAB equal to a Druid of it's Hit Dice, which according to the Progression Chart would be 8 (6 original HD +2 HD for advancement). Now, at 8th level a Druid has a BAB of +6/+1, does the animal companion get the second attack and if so, to which attack? Would it get claw/claw/bite twice? or would it get four claw attacks and a bite? or just one extra claw attack (claw/claw/claw)?
Bjorn the Wanderer
08-25-05, 07:52 PM you cannot get additional attacks with natural weapons. As a higher level abilities of the druid once a certain level is reach the bear will gain improvded multi-attack however to decrease the penatly for the secondary attacks.

Bejorn.
Nephlite
08-25-05, 08:14 PM My Druid recently turned 9th level and I'm trying to figure out the progression for my Brown Bear companion. According to the PHB an animal companion has a BAB equal to a Druid of it's Hit Dice, which according to the Progression Chart would be 8 (6 original HD +2 HD for advancement). Now, at 8th level a Druid has a BAB of +6/+1, does the animal companion get the second attack and if so, to which attack? Would it get claw/claw/bite twice? or would it get four claw attacks and a bite? or just one extra claw attack (claw/claw/claw)?

Natural attacks don't get additional attacks due to BAB. Since Bears have no weapons but Unarmed Strikes (since everyone can do them)...

Everyone can do unarmed strikes but proficiency for the bear might be an issue (are bears proficient?). So you could make a additional attack from the BAB as a unarmed strike. (Though the damage would only be 1d4 large and nonlethal).

I'll assume Brown Bear with no changes to str (for this example): Str 27 (+8)
Full attack: Claws when multiattacking which bite which gets -5 Penalty from it.
+8 from str to hit. Bab +6=14.
So when just attacking with claws: 2 claws +13 melee (1d8+8). When attacking with everything.
Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (1d8+8) and bite +8 melee (2d6+4) and Unarmed Strike +8 (1d4 +8 nonlethal).

Or if you want lethal unarmed strikes apply the -4 penalty:
Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (1d8+8) and bite +8 melee (2d6+4) and Unarmed Strike +4 (1d4 +8 lethal).
Bjorn the Wanderer
08-25-05, 09:30 PM Animals do not have unarmed strikes. They are always armed with their natural weapons.

Please see the polar bear for an example of what happens to an animal when it has a BAB +6. That being said, nothing happens they gain no additional attacks.
Same applies to everything with natural weapons.

That being said you bear would have (adjusted for 9th level druid)
either with a movement
1 claw +14 1d8+9
full attack
2 claws a +14 for 1d8+9 and 1 bite at +9 for 2d6+4.

Later,
Bjorn
Vanulf
08-25-05, 09:31 PM OK, assuming I've done everything right (and you know what they say when you assume something), this is what I've come up with. I've added the Bonus HD (and comensurate H.P.s), the +1Str/Dex, and the +2 Natural AC, the Bonus Tricks, and special ablities for advancing the Companion. Additionally I've added +1 Con and the additional skill points for reaching 8HD, and tricks I've taught her. Please look it over and let me know if I've missed or miscalculated anything.

Ursula
Bear, Brown (Large Animal)

Hit Dice: 8d8+24 (78 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+27
Attack: Claw +14 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: 2 claws +14 (1d8+9) and bite +9 melee (2d6+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Scent, Link, Share spells, Evasion
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 28 (+9), Dex 14 (+2), Con 20 (+5), Int 2 (-4), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 6 (-2)
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +8, Swim +13
Feats:Endurance, Run, Track

Environment: Cold forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 4
Advancement: 7–10 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —
Tricks Known: Attack, Defend, Down, Fetch, Guard, Heel, Seek, Track

Thanks,
Vanulf
Nephlite
08-25-05, 09:36 PM Animals do not have unarmed strikes. They are always armed with their natural weapons.
Bjorn
Proof that Bears can't do unarmed strikes?

Halfing entries don't show unarmed strikes either but we both know they can.

Niothing says a cr3eatuyre with a natural weapon can't do unarmed strikes unless you've seen something I haven't.
Bjorn the Wanderer
08-25-05, 09:42 PM Proof that Bears can't do unarmed strikes?

Halfing entries don't show unarmed strikes either but we both know they can.

Niothing says a cr3eatuyre with a natural weapon can't do unarmed strikes unless you've seen something I haven't.

Halflings also do not have natural weapons.
Bjorn the Wanderer
08-25-05, 09:49 PM Ursula
Bear, Brown (Large Animal)

Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (94hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+27
Attack: Claw +14 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: 2 claws +14 (1d8+9) and bite +9 melee (2d6+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Scent, Link, Share spells, Evasion
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 28 (+9), Dex 14 (+2), Con 20 (+5), Int 2 (-4), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 6 (-2)
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +8, Swim +13
Feats:Endurance, Run, Track

Environment: Cold forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 4
Advancement: 7–10 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —
Tricks Known: Attack, Defend, Down, Fetch, Guard, Heel, Seek, Track

I've made some minor changes in bold.

Bjorn
Vanulf
08-25-05, 10:15 PM Where exactly does the +40 H.P. come from? I can understand the +4 damage as I rounded up instead of down, but that one confuses me.
Nephlite
08-25-05, 10:22 PM Where exactly does the +40 H.P. come from? I can understand the +4 damage as I rounded up instead of down, but that one confuses me.

Con 20 (modifier 5)
5 x 8 HD=40 bonus.
Vanulf
08-25-05, 10:36 PM Aha, "Ding" :lightbulb
Thank you all
Pliskit
08-26-05, 12:18 AM How did you get the Con to be 20? Brown bear has a Con of 19, and as far as I can see only Dex and Str are raised in the Animal Companion table...
That would make hp 8d8+32.
Vanulf
08-26-05, 04:33 AM When advancing monsters, they get a +1 to thier ability scores every 4HD, similar to PC's ability score increase every 4 levels. I just happened to put it in Con.
Leonidus
08-26-05, 05:23 AM You forgot the strength bonus to the bear's attack.

And, no, animals are automatically proficient with natural weapons. (Horses and non-combative herbivores are still proficient with their natural weapons, they just use those attacks as secondary attacks, meaning a -5 penalty.) (mm p305-306)

They're also considered armed with those natural weapons, by default. Natural attacks also do not get additional attacks for a high BAB. (mm p312)
Pliskit
08-26-05, 06:59 AM When advancing monsters, they get a +1 to thier ability scores every 4HD, similar to PC's ability score increase every 4 levels. I just happened to put it in Con.

Is that every 4th hitdice from zero (so at 4hd, 8hd, 12hd), or every 4th hd from the original stats of the animal (for brown bear 6hd, 10hd etc)?
I know I should be looking this one up in my MM, but I'm at work, haven't got it with me and I'm to curious not to ask :)

edit: considering you put it in at 8hd, you obviously go for the first option :rolleyes: :D So instead, can you tell me where it says that the normal level adjustment rules for animals also apply for animal companions, who have their own, unique way of developing?
Paxbot
08-26-05, 10:25 AM Somewhere in this thread, there has to be a joke about the 2nd ammendment right to arm bears. :D
kingrat55
08-26-05, 10:31 AM From Source:
Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

At no time it say about Stat increasement, by RAW, this is not allowed.

Dont forget, extra HD dont change the size of your Animal Companion.
Wolf72
08-26-05, 12:15 PM that's still debateable kingrat ... I'd like to see some official clarification on that, everything else increases normally for going up in HD, one would think that the critter should get the stat increase too. If they wanted to exclude the stat increase I think they could have written something to the effect of: the creature gets all associated benefits of increasing in HD except the stat increase at every 4th HD.

I do see your point though. Personally I'd give it to them, the only limitation being that it can not be intelligence (animals can not have mor than a 2 int)
Vanulf
08-26-05, 03:59 PM This is direct from Wizard's Customer Support

The animal companion does not receive an additional ability score increase. They do receive feats and skill points as normal, but the only ability score increase they receive is listed in the progression entry for animal companions

So, accordingly I was wrong, it's Con should not have been increased. Also, I know that the Bonus HD do not increase the Animal Companions size, as you will notice that it is still listed as a Large Animal.

You forgot the strength bonus to the bear's attack

I'm not eactlly sure what youre getting at.
The bear's Str bonus is +9, it is calculated into it's Attack and Damage stats.
Leonidus
08-26-05, 04:31 PM This is direct from Wizard's Customer Support
Well, I'm not sure about that. As many can attest, customer support is frequently wrong, or even self-conflicting.

I'm not eactlly sure what youre getting at.
The bear's Str bonus is +9, it is calculated into it's Attack and Damage stats.
Ah! I found the problem. You added the strength to the Base Attack entry. That's incorrect, it should only be the BAB listed from the hitdice. (it's included for things like power attack and so forth.)

(I was comparing the bab with the attack. Didn't compare against the HD.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vanulf 08-25-05, 07:44 PM	My Druid recently turned 9th level and I'm trying to figure out the progression for my Brown Bear companion. According to the PHB an animal companion has a BAB equal to a Druid of it's Hit Dice, which according to the Progression Chart would be 8 (6 original HD +2 HD for advancement). Now, at 8th level a Druid has a BAB of +6/+1, does the animal companion get the second attack and if so, to which attack? Would it get claw/claw/bite twice? or would it get four claw attacks and a bite? or just one extra claw attack (claw/claw/claw)?
Bjorn the Wanderer 08-25-05, 07:52 PM	you cannot get additional attacks with natural weapons. As a higher level abilities of the druid once a certain level is reach the bear will gain improvded multi-attack however to decrease the penatly for the secondary attacks. Bejorn.
Nephlite 08-25-05, 08:14 PM	My Druid recently turned 9th level and I'm trying to figure out the progression for my Brown Bear companion. According to the PHB an animal companion has a BAB equal to a Druid of it's Hit Dice, which according to the Progression Chart would be 8 (6 original HD +2 HD for advancement). Now, at 8th level a Druid has a BAB of +6/+1, does the animal companion get the second attack and if so, to which attack? Would it get claw/claw/bite twice? or would it get four claw attacks and a bite? or just one extra claw attack (claw/claw/claw)? Natural attacks don't get additional attacks due to BAB. Since Bears have no weapons but Unarmed Strikes (since everyone can do them)... Everyone can do unarmed strikes but proficiency for the bear might be an issue (are bears proficient?). So you could make a additional attack from the BAB as a unarmed strike. (Though the damage would only be 1d4 large and nonlethal). I'll assume Brown Bear with no changes to str (for this example): Str 27 (+8) Full attack: Claws when multiattacking which bite which gets -5 Penalty from it. +8 from str to hit. Bab +6=14. So when just attacking with claws: 2 claws +13 melee (1d8+8). When attacking with everything. Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (1d8+8) and bite +8 melee (2d6+4) and Unarmed Strike +8 (1d4 +8 nonlethal). Or if you want lethal unarmed strikes apply the -4 penalty: Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (1d8+8) and bite +8 melee (2d6+4) and Unarmed Strike +4 (1d4 +8 lethal).
Bjorn the Wanderer 08-25-05, 09:30 PM	Animals do not have unarmed strikes. They are always armed with their natural weapons. Please see the polar bear for an example of what happens to an animal when it has a BAB +6. That being said, nothing happens they gain no additional attacks. Same applies to everything with natural weapons. That being said you bear would have (adjusted for 9th level druid) either with a movement 1 claw +14 1d8+9 full attack 2 claws a +14 for 1d8+9 and 1 bite at +9 for 2d6+4. Later, Bjorn
Vanulf 08-25-05, 09:31 PM	OK, assuming I've done everything right (and you know what they say when you assume something), this is what I've come up with. I've added the Bonus HD (and comensurate H.P.s), the +1Str/Dex, and the +2 Natural AC, the Bonus Tricks, and special ablities for advancing the Companion. Additionally I've added +1 Con and the additional skill points for reaching 8HD, and tricks I've taught her. Please look it over and let me know if I've missed or miscalculated anything. Ursula Bear, Brown (Large Animal) Hit Dice: 8d8+24 (78 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16 Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+27 Attack: Claw +14 melee (1d8+9) Full Attack: 2 claws +14 (1d8+9) and bite +9 melee (2d6+5) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Improved grab Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Scent, Link, Share spells, Evasion Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +3 Abilities: Str 28 (+9), Dex 14 (+2), Con 20 (+5), Int 2 (-4), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 6 (-2) Skills: Listen +5, Spot +8, Swim +13 Feats:Endurance, Run, Track Environment: Cold forests Organization: Solitary or pair Challenge Rating: 4 Advancement: 7–10 HD (Large) Level Adjustment: — Tricks Known: Attack, Defend, Down, Fetch, Guard, Heel, Seek, Track Thanks, Vanulf
Nephlite 08-25-05, 09:36 PM	Animals do not have unarmed strikes. They are always armed with their natural weapons. Bjorn Proof that Bears can't do unarmed strikes? Halfing entries don't show unarmed strikes either but we both know they can. Niothing says a cr3eatuyre with a natural weapon can't do unarmed strikes unless you've seen something I haven't.
Bjorn the Wanderer 08-25-05, 09:42 PM	Proof that Bears can't do unarmed strikes? Halfing entries don't show unarmed strikes either but we both know they can. Niothing says a cr3eatuyre with a natural weapon can't do unarmed strikes unless you've seen something I haven't. Halflings also do not have natural weapons.
Bjorn the Wanderer 08-25-05, 09:49 PM	Ursula Bear, Brown (Large Animal) Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (94hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16 Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+27 Attack: Claw +14 melee (1d8+9) Full Attack: 2 claws +14 (1d8+9) and bite +9 melee (2d6+4) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Improved grab Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Scent, Link, Share spells, Evasion Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +3 Abilities: Str 28 (+9), Dex 14 (+2), Con 20 (+5), Int 2 (-4), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 6 (-2) Skills: Listen +5, Spot +8, Swim +13 Feats:Endurance, Run, Track Environment: Cold forests Organization: Solitary or pair Challenge Rating: 4 Advancement: 7–10 HD (Large) Level Adjustment: — Tricks Known: Attack, Defend, Down, Fetch, Guard, Heel, Seek, Track I've made some minor changes in bold. Bjorn
Vanulf 08-25-05, 10:15 PM	Where exactly does the +40 H.P. come from? I can understand the +4 damage as I rounded up instead of down, but that one confuses me.
Nephlite 08-25-05, 10:22 PM	Where exactly does the +40 H.P. come from? I can understand the +4 damage as I rounded up instead of down, but that one confuses me. Con 20 (modifier 5) 5 x 8 HD=40 bonus.
Vanulf 08-25-05, 10:36 PM	Aha, "Ding" :lightbulb Thank you all
Pliskit 08-26-05, 12:18 AM	How did you get the Con to be 20? Brown bear has a Con of 19, and as far as I can see only Dex and Str are raised in the Animal Companion table... That would make hp 8d8+32.
Vanulf 08-26-05, 04:33 AM	When advancing monsters, they get a +1 to thier ability scores every 4HD, similar to PC's ability score increase every 4 levels. I just happened to put it in Con.
Leonidus 08-26-05, 05:23 AM	You forgot the strength bonus to the bear's attack. And, no, animals are automatically proficient with natural weapons. (Horses and non-combative herbivores are still proficient with their natural weapons, they just use those attacks as secondary attacks, meaning a -5 penalty.) (mm p305-306) They're also considered armed with those natural weapons, by default. Natural attacks also do not get additional attacks for a high BAB. (mm p312)
Pliskit 08-26-05, 06:59 AM	When advancing monsters, they get a +1 to thier ability scores every 4HD, similar to PC's ability score increase every 4 levels. I just happened to put it in Con. Is that every 4th hitdice from zero (so at 4hd, 8hd, 12hd), or every 4th hd from the original stats of the animal (for brown bear 6hd, 10hd etc)? I know I should be looking this one up in my MM, but I'm at work, haven't got it with me and I'm to curious not to ask :) edit: considering you put it in at 8hd, you obviously go for the first option :rolleyes: :D So instead, can you tell me where it says that the normal level adjustment rules for animals also apply for animal companions, who have their own, unique way of developing?
Paxbot 08-26-05, 10:25 AM	Somewhere in this thread, there has to be a joke about the 2nd ammendment right to arm bears. :D
kingrat55 08-26-05, 10:31 AM	From Source: Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice. At no time it say about Stat increasement, by RAW, this is not allowed. Dont forget, extra HD dont change the size of your Animal Companion.
Wolf72 08-26-05, 12:15 PM	that's still debateable kingrat ... I'd like to see some official clarification on that, everything else increases normally for going up in HD, one would think that the critter should get the stat increase too. If they wanted to exclude the stat increase I think they could have written something to the effect of: the creature gets all associated benefits of increasing in HD except the stat increase at every 4th HD. I do see your point though. Personally I'd give it to them, the only limitation being that it can not be intelligence (animals can not have mor than a 2 int)
Vanulf 08-26-05, 03:59 PM	This is direct from Wizard's Customer Support The animal companion does not receive an additional ability score increase. They do receive feats and skill points as normal, but the only ability score increase they receive is listed in the progression entry for animal companions So, accordingly I was wrong, it's Con should not have been increased. Also, I know that the Bonus HD do not increase the Animal Companions size, as you will notice that it is still listed as a Large Animal. You forgot the strength bonus to the bear's attack I'm not eactlly sure what youre getting at. The bear's Str bonus is +9, it is calculated into it's Attack and Damage stats.
Leonidus 08-26-05, 04:31 PM	This is direct from Wizard's Customer Support Well, I'm not sure about that. As many can attest, customer support is frequently wrong, or even self-conflicting. I'm not eactlly sure what youre getting at. The bear's Str bonus is +9, it is calculated into it's Attack and Damage stats. Ah! I found the problem. You added the strength to the Base Attack entry. That's incorrect, it should only be the BAB listed from the hitdice. (it's included for things like power attack and so forth.) (I was comparing the bab with the attack. Didn't compare against the HD.)