animals with magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

animals with magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Grummush_Rogue
05-19-07, 11:43 AM What would i have to do to have an animal with spell casting classes?
benstundze
05-19-07, 02:37 PM well, as i see it, you have 2 options.
a. you play the animal as a caricter, and lvl it with xp, taking whatever class youd like.

b. you can make a class variant, say for druid. your animal can cast spells but you only get up to 8th lvl spells, or somthing like that.

ben
IRememberCecil
05-19-07, 02:52 PM There's nothing in the rules that I'm aware of that prohibits animals from taking class levels. They are, however, discouraged as PC choices.

Their only real limitations are their ability scores. We'll never be seeing a Wolf Wizard, for example, let alone a Viper one.
Leo
05-19-07, 02:57 PM See the druid ressurection spell. It has some rules about animals with class levels. Very unclear rules but rules nothless.
JulesCARV
05-19-07, 02:57 PM I think the only magic that non-awakened animals can wield are the Complete Arcane magic-granting feats -- Night Haunt, Spell Hand, Soul of the North, Necropolis Born, etc.

Usually, though, animals don't take those feats, usually taking feats like Run, Improved Natural Attack, Alertness, etc. However, I suppose maybe a psion could use psychic reformation to swap those feats out for things like spell hand and such.
Ovistavin
05-19-07, 03:05 PM First the animal would have to be Awakened (which means it can't be an Animal Companion, Familiar, or Special Mount) and have ability scores high enough for the casting class. Animals have a WIS score a little above average (the highest I found being 13), so they could be a low level divine caster. The Animal could be a Wizard since its INT score is now determined by 3d6 (just have to get around using spell components), although a Psion would probably be better. A sorcerer is out since after the awaken spell the animal's CHA would be still 10 or less.

This is for average animals, if the animal has ability scores that were rolled or uses the elite array this will be a little different (WIS or CHA only, INT isn't affected by rolling abilities).
IRememberCecil
05-19-07, 03:13 PM First the animal would have to be Awakened
Would you mind quoting me the rule that states this? I don't recall seeing it in any of my books.
benstundze
05-19-07, 03:32 PM First the animal would have to be Awakened (which means it can't be an Animal Companion, Familiar, or Special Mount) and have ability scores high enough for the casting class. Animals have a WIS score a little above average (the highest I found being 13), so they could be a low level divine caster. The Animal could be a Wizard since its INT score is now determined by 3d6 (just have to get around using spell components), although a Psion would probably be better. A sorcerer is out since after the awaken spell the animal's CHA would be still 10 or less.

This is for average animals, if the animal has ability scores that were rolled or uses the elite array this will be a little different (WIS or CHA only, INT isn't affected by rolling abilities).

only if your dm is a prick.
ben
Thomar_of_Uointer
05-19-07, 06:48 PM You could probably use my Hit Die progressions to just have a level 1 magical beast with levels in sorcerer.

http://www.kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf
KurenaiYami
05-19-07, 06:56 PM You have to have an Int of 3 or higher to gain class levels. So no animal could do it. If it had an Intelligence of 3, it becomes a Magical Beast.
IRememberCecil
05-19-07, 06:59 PM You have to have an Int of 3 or higher to gain class levels. So no animal could do it. If it had an Intelligence of 3, it becomes a Magical Beast.
Can you cite the rule? I don't remember ever seeing it.
Thomar_of_Uointer
05-19-07, 08:15 PM http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType

The types entry specifically states that no animal can have an Intelligence of 3 or higher.
IRememberCecil
05-19-07, 08:27 PM http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType

The types entry specifically states that no animal can have an Intelligence of 3 or higher.
I know animals can't have a higher INT than 2. That doesn't prove that they can't take class levels.
Captain_Kobold
05-20-07, 08:47 AM I know animals can't have a higher INT than 2. That doesn't prove that they can't take class levels.

I think the bit you are looking for is in the 'Ability scores for Monster PCs' part of the SRD:

The separate table for Intelligence ensures that no PC ends up with an Intelligence score lower than 3. This is important, because creatures with an Intelligence score lower than 3 are not playable characters. Creatures with any ability score lower than 1 are also not playable.

Almost by definition a creature with less than three intelligence is DM-run. A character can teach an animal tricks so it can perform useful tasks, but all its other actions would be determined by training or instinct. Int 2 is not 'very stupid level of intelligence, it is 'not sentient' level.
ElberethSilverleaf
05-20-07, 08:53 AM The OP said "spell casting classes".
So the minimum intelligence needed to cast a 1st level spell is IN 11. (I believe)
Then the animal would have to acquire feats that eliminate the need for somatic, & verbal components depending on the species.
IRememberCecil
05-20-07, 03:25 PM Almost by definition a creature with less than three intelligence is DM-run. A character can teach an animal tricks so it can perform useful tasks, but all its other actions would be determined by training or instinct. Int 2 is not 'very stupid level of intelligence, it is 'not sentient' level.
Yes, I know. But NPC does not imply "no ability to take class levels" unless the rules say it does.
Thomar_of_Uointer
05-21-07, 11:55 PM I know animals can't have a higher INT than 2. That doesn't prove that they can't take class levels.

Oh, class levels? I thought you meant intelligent Animals, sorry.

Yeah, there's really nothing preventing the DM from advancing a dire bear with levels in Barbarian. I would do it to save time, rather than working out some template that grants rage and fast movement.
Captain_Kobold
05-22-07, 10:19 AM Having dug a bit more, I can't find anything that specifically prohibits animals from taking class levels if you were really determined to interpret the rules that way.

From the SRD:

Class Levels: Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of “By character class” in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.
Increased Hit Dice: Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.

While I personally would interpert this as when nonintelligent monsters advance, they do so by adding hit dice, it does not specifically state that. Thus it could be argued that they could advance by other methods.

Barbarian is about the only class I can think of that an animal could advance in if the DM is determined to have them advancing by class levels. However, as the DM, they are free to houserule whatever they want.

Perhaps if we knew what the purpose of the question was, we would be better able to give help on the specifics?
Thomar_of_Uointer
05-23-07, 12:24 AM While I personally would interpert this as when nonintelligent monsters advance, they do so by adding hit dice, it does not specifically state that. Thus it could be argued that they could advance by other methods.

Barbarian is about the only class I can think of that an animal could advance in if the DM is determined to have them advancing by class levels. However, as the DM, they are free to houserule whatever they want.

Perhaps if we knew what the purpose of the question was, we would be better able to give help on the specifics?

Well, imagine a wild animal in an environment inundated with magic, such that it soaks up magic and has to compete with magical beasts and aberrations. Giving it sorcerer levels and a simple set of circumstances in which it uses its spells (remember, it's still got an Intelligence of 2) makes perfect sense, while keeping it from becoming too powerful (as magical beast Hit Dice are pretty darn good, at least compared to animal Hit Dice).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grummush_Rogue 05-19-07, 11:43 AM	What would i have to do to have an animal with spell casting classes?
benstundze 05-19-07, 02:37 PM	well, as i see it, you have 2 options. a. you play the animal as a caricter, and lvl it with xp, taking whatever class youd like. b. you can make a class variant, say for druid. your animal can cast spells but you only get up to 8th lvl spells, or somthing like that. ben
IRememberCecil 05-19-07, 02:52 PM	There's nothing in the rules that I'm aware of that prohibits animals from taking class levels. They are, however, discouraged as PC choices. Their only real limitations are their ability scores. We'll never be seeing a Wolf Wizard, for example, let alone a Viper one.
Leo 05-19-07, 02:57 PM	See the druid ressurection spell. It has some rules about animals with class levels. Very unclear rules but rules nothless.
JulesCARV 05-19-07, 02:57 PM	I think the only magic that non-awakened animals can wield are the Complete Arcane magic-granting feats -- Night Haunt, Spell Hand, Soul of the North, Necropolis Born, etc. Usually, though, animals don't take those feats, usually taking feats like Run, Improved Natural Attack, Alertness, etc. However, I suppose maybe a psion could use psychic reformation to swap those feats out for things like spell hand and such.
Ovistavin 05-19-07, 03:05 PM	First the animal would have to be Awakened (which means it can't be an Animal Companion, Familiar, or Special Mount) and have ability scores high enough for the casting class. Animals have a WIS score a little above average (the highest I found being 13), so they could be a low level divine caster. The Animal could be a Wizard since its INT score is now determined by 3d6 (just have to get around using spell components), although a Psion would probably be better. A sorcerer is out since after the awaken spell the animal's CHA would be still 10 or less. This is for average animals, if the animal has ability scores that were rolled or uses the elite array this will be a little different (WIS or CHA only, INT isn't affected by rolling abilities).
IRememberCecil 05-19-07, 03:13 PM	First the animal would have to be Awakened Would you mind quoting me the rule that states this? I don't recall seeing it in any of my books.
benstundze 05-19-07, 03:32 PM	First the animal would have to be Awakened (which means it can't be an Animal Companion, Familiar, or Special Mount) and have ability scores high enough for the casting class. Animals have a WIS score a little above average (the highest I found being 13), so they could be a low level divine caster. The Animal could be a Wizard since its INT score is now determined by 3d6 (just have to get around using spell components), although a Psion would probably be better. A sorcerer is out since after the awaken spell the animal's CHA would be still 10 or less. This is for average animals, if the animal has ability scores that were rolled or uses the elite array this will be a little different (WIS or CHA only, INT isn't affected by rolling abilities). only if your dm is a prick. ben
Thomar_of_Uointer 05-19-07, 06:48 PM	You could probably use my Hit Die progressions to just have a level 1 magical beast with levels in sorcerer. http://www.kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf
KurenaiYami 05-19-07, 06:56 PM	You have to have an Int of 3 or higher to gain class levels. So no animal could do it. If it had an Intelligence of 3, it becomes a Magical Beast.
IRememberCecil 05-19-07, 06:59 PM	You have to have an Int of 3 or higher to gain class levels. So no animal could do it. If it had an Intelligence of 3, it becomes a Magical Beast. Can you cite the rule? I don't remember ever seeing it.
Thomar_of_Uointer 05-19-07, 08:15 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType The types entry specifically states that no animal can have an Intelligence of 3 or higher.
IRememberCecil 05-19-07, 08:27 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType The types entry specifically states that no animal can have an Intelligence of 3 or higher. I know animals can't have a higher INT than 2. That doesn't prove that they can't take class levels.
Captain_Kobold 05-20-07, 08:47 AM	I know animals can't have a higher INT than 2. That doesn't prove that they can't take class levels. I think the bit you are looking for is in the 'Ability scores for Monster PCs' part of the SRD: The separate table for Intelligence ensures that no PC ends up with an Intelligence score lower than 3. This is important, because creatures with an Intelligence score lower than 3 are not playable characters. Creatures with any ability score lower than 1 are also not playable. Almost by definition a creature with less than three intelligence is DM-run. A character can teach an animal tricks so it can perform useful tasks, but all its other actions would be determined by training or instinct. Int 2 is not 'very stupid level of intelligence, it is 'not sentient' level.
ElberethSilverleaf 05-20-07, 08:53 AM	The OP said "spell casting classes". So the minimum intelligence needed to cast a 1st level spell is IN 11. (I believe) Then the animal would have to acquire feats that eliminate the need for somatic, & verbal components depending on the species.
IRememberCecil 05-20-07, 03:25 PM	Almost by definition a creature with less than three intelligence is DM-run. A character can teach an animal tricks so it can perform useful tasks, but all its other actions would be determined by training or instinct. Int 2 is not 'very stupid level of intelligence, it is 'not sentient' level. Yes, I know. But NPC does not imply "no ability to take class levels" unless the rules say it does.
Thomar_of_Uointer 05-21-07, 11:55 PM	I know animals can't have a higher INT than 2. That doesn't prove that they can't take class levels. Oh, class levels? I thought you meant intelligent Animals, sorry. Yeah, there's really nothing preventing the DM from advancing a dire bear with levels in Barbarian. I would do it to save time, rather than working out some template that grants rage and fast movement.
Captain_Kobold 05-22-07, 10:19 AM	Having dug a bit more, I can't find anything that specifically prohibits animals from taking class levels if you were really determined to interpret the rules that way. From the SRD: Class Levels: Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of “By character class” in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities. Increased Hit Dice: Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows. While I personally would interpert this as when nonintelligent monsters advance, they do so by adding hit dice, it does not specifically state that. Thus it could be argued that they could advance by other methods. Barbarian is about the only class I can think of that an animal could advance in if the DM is determined to have them advancing by class levels. However, as the DM, they are free to houserule whatever they want. Perhaps if we knew what the purpose of the question was, we would be better able to give help on the specifics?
Thomar_of_Uointer 05-23-07, 12:24 AM	While I personally would interpert this as when nonintelligent monsters advance, they do so by adding hit dice, it does not specifically state that. Thus it could be argued that they could advance by other methods. Barbarian is about the only class I can think of that an animal could advance in if the DM is determined to have them advancing by class levels. However, as the DM, they are free to houserule whatever they want. Perhaps if we knew what the purpose of the question was, we would be better able to give help on the specifics? Well, imagine a wild animal in an environment inundated with magic, such that it soaks up magic and has to compete with magical beasts and aberrations. Giving it sorcerer levels and a simple set of circumstances in which it uses its spells (remember, it's still got an Intelligence of 2) makes perfect sense, while keeping it from becoming too powerful (as magical beast Hit Dice are pretty darn good, at least compared to animal Hit Dice).