Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maarten 03-24-05, 02:47 PM	Like so many others before me, I will try and change the Fighter. Whereas others have tried to give the Fighter even more bonus feats (!), or change skills, I have thought up a radically different approach to the Fighter. I have glanced over the “let’s make a new Fighter together” thread, and some ideas have been concocted look a lot like mine. In no way have I used their ideas however, my variant was finished before I read the thread. Totally original material here :) My starting points are the following: The Fighter should be fun. If I look at class abilities, and all I see is “bonus feat”, it looks boring. Monks and Druids are cool, because of the funky things they can pull off. Fighters should have cool class abilities, without changing the spirit of the class. The Fighter should not be used as a 1/2/4 level dip. The Fighter should not be a weak prey to spellcasters. A single class should represent different Fighter archetypes (!). The Fighter should have more and better class skills. The Fighter should be the best Fighter of all classes. Period. I present to you: THE NEW AND IMPROVED FIGHTER (Insert standard Fighter flavour text) Game Rule Information Fighters have the following game statistics. Abilities: Strength is especially important to Fighters because it improves their melee attack and damage rolls. Constitution is important for giving the Fighter a lot of hit points. Dexterity is important for Fighters who pursue the path of archery, or those who condone the use of heavier armour. Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d10. Class Skills The Fighters class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nobility), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis) and Swim (Str). See also the specialisation class feature. Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. Class Features All the following are class features of the Fighter. (A Fighter has high BAB (as a Paladin), a good Fortitude save (as a Cleric) and weak reflex and will saves (as a Barbarian) Level Special 1 Specialisation I 2 - 3 Style Focus 4 Magic Resistant (Least) 5 Bonus Feat 6 Specialisation II 7 - 8 Magic Resistant (Lesser) 9 - 10 Bonus Feat 11 Specialisation III 12 Magic Resistant (Improved) 13 - 14 - 15 Bonus Feat 16 Magic Resistant (Greater), Specialisation IV 17 - 18 - 19 - 20 Magic Resistant (Supreme), Bonus Feat Weapon and armour proficiencies: (Ex) A Fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armour (But see specialisation below) and shields (but not tower shields, again see specialisation below). Specialisation: (Ex) At 1st level a Fighter chooses one of four main paths / schools / specialisations. A specialisation represents the type of Fighter you are, from nimble duellist to a brawny soldier. A first level Fighter chooses a single specialisation, and gains the subsequent benefits as explained below. Swashbuckler: A Swashbuckler adds Balance, Escape Artist and Tumble to his Fighter class skills. He gains the Weapon Finesse feat as a bonus feat at first level. He gains a +1 competence bonus to his reflex save. When a swashbuckler reaches 6th level, he gains the Insightful Strike ability, as per the Swashbuckler base class (Complete Warrior, p. 12). When he reaches 11th level, he gains skill mastery as per the Rogue class (Players Handbook, p. 51) for the skills Balance, Jump and Tumble. He adds another +1 (for a total of +2) to his competence bonus on reflex saves. He also gains the Acrobatic Charge ability as the Swashbuckler base class (CW, p. 12). At 16th level he gains the Greater Insightful Strike ability. This allows him to his Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence bonus to his damage rolls. The same restrictions as before still apply. He also gains the weakening critical ability as per the Swashbuckler base class (CW, p. 12). He adds another +1 (for a total of +3) to his competence bonus on reflex saves. Militant: A militant gains Medium and Heavy armour Proficiency and proficiency in Tower Shields. He adds Diplomacy and Perform to his Fighter class skills. He also gains a single minor aura as per the Marshal base class ability (Miniature Handbook, p. 12). At 6th level he gains another Minor Aura, and a single Major Aura with a +1 bonus as per the Marshal base class ability (MH, p. 13). He also gains Formation Expert (CW, p. 110) as a bonus feat. At 11th level he gains another Major Aura. Furthermore, once per day a Militant can grant any one or all allies within 30 ft. an extra move action as per the Marshal base class (MH, p. 13). At 16th level he gains another Minor Aura, and another Major Aura. His Major Aura bonus increases to +2. .He also gains another use of his Grant Move Action ability. Thug: A thug gains Medium Armour proficiency. He adds Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand and Tumble to his class skills. He gains a +1 competence bonus to reflex saves. He gains Skill Focus (Intimidate) as a bonus feat. At 6th level he gains the Evasion ability. He gains +1d6 sneak attack damage as per the Rogue ability (PHB, p. 50). He gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat. He also gains the Improved Intimidate ability, allowing him to intimidate (demoralise) a single opponent within 30 ft. per combat as a move action. If the Thug wins the opposed check, the enemy is shaken for 5 rounds. At 11th level he gains Skill Mastery as per the Rogue ability (PHB, p. 51) for Hide and Move Silently. He gains another +1 competence bonus (for a total of +2) to reflex saves. He also gains another 1d6 of Sneak Attack damage, for a total of +2d6. At 16th level he gains another 1d6 of sneak attack damage, for a total of +3d6. He gains another +1 competence bonus (for a total of +3) to reflex saves. He also gains the Greater Intimidate ability, allowing him to intimidate (demoralise) a single opponent within 30 ft. per combat as a swift action instead of a move action. Combat Master: A Combat Master gains Medium and Heavy Armour proficiency and proficiency with Tower Shields. He gains Combat Intuition (Complete Adventurer, p. 106) as a bonus feat. At 3 level he can choose an extra style focus. At 6th level a Combat Master gains an extra bonus feat from the Fighter list (PHB, p. 90). He gains Skill focus (Sense Motive) as a bonus feat. He gains the Improved Technique ability, allowing him to add a +2 to the either Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush, Overrun or Sunder checks. He only gains the +2 to a single type of “technique”, and he must have the Improved “Technique” feat to apply the extra +2. For Example, a fifth level Fighter (Combat Master) with both the Improved Bull Rush and Improved Sunder feats could choose one of those techniques to gain another +2 in after attaining the 6th Fighter level. If he would choose Bull Rush, he would add a total of +6 tot the check (+4 for the Improved Bull Rush feat, and a +2 for the Improved Technique ability). At 11th level a Combat Master gains another bonus feat from the Fighter list (PHB, p. 90). Furthermore, he can choose another Technique to gain a +2 in, but he still has to have the relevant Improved “Technique” feat. At 16th level a Combat Master gains another bonus feat from the Fighter list (PHB, p. 90). Furthermore, he now adds another +2 to techniques in which he has Improved Technique, for a total of +4 and a grand total of +8 to two types of technique checks.. Style Focus: (Ex) at 3rd level the Fighter chooses a single style (except for Combat Masters, who can choose two) in which he focuses. In most cases a style is a single feat, in which the Fighter gains additional bonuses. A Fighter can choose from the following styles: Dodge, Unarmed Strike, Improved Feint, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, Mounted Combat, Archery, Armour focus. A Fighter who chooses the Dodge style focus gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC at 4th level. This bonus increases to +2 at level 8, to +3 at level 12, to +4 at level 16 and finally to +5 at level 20. A Fighter who chooses the Unarmed Strike style focus gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and he deals unarmed damage as a monk of a level equal to the number of Fighter levels he has. A Fighter who chooses Improved Feint as a style focus gains Improved Feint as a bonus feat. At level 6 he gains a +4 bonus to bluff checks for the purpose of feinting in combat. At level 9 he can feint as a swift action. At level 12 he gains skill mastery as per the rogue ability (PHB, p. 51) for the bluff skill. A Fighter who chooses the Two-weapon fighting style focus gains Two weapon fighting as a bonus feat. At level 6 he gains improved two weapon fighting as a bonus feat. At level 11 he gains Greater Two-Weapon fighting as a bonus feat. A Fighter who chooses the Weapon Focus style focus gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat. At level 4 he gains weapon specialisation as a bonus feat. At level 8 he gains improved Weapon Focus as a bonus feat. At level 12 he gains Improved Weapon Specialisation as a bonus feat. A Fighter who chooses Mounted Combat as style focus gains Mounted Combat as a bonus feat. At level 6 he gains Ride-by-Attack as a bonus feat. At level 9 he gains trample as a bonus feat. At level 12 he gains spirited charge as a bonus feat. A Fighter who chooses Archery as style focus gains Point-blank shot as a bonus feat. At level 6 he gains Rapid Shot as a bonus feat. At level 9 he gains Manyshot as a bonus feat. At level 12 he gains Improved Precise Shot as a bonus feat. A Fighter who chooses Armour Focus as style gains an extra +1 armour bonus to AC when wearing Heavy Armour. He also gains an additional +1 shield bonus to AC when wearing a shield. The shield is considered worn when the Fighter gains a shield bonus and the shield is strapped to his arm. At 4th level he gains Heavy Armour Optimisation (Races of Stone, p. 141) as a bonus feat. At 6th level he gains an additional +1 shield bonus to AC (for a total of +2) when wearing a shield. At 8th level he gains Greater Heavy Armour Optimisation (RoS, p. 141) as a bonus feat. At 10th level he gains an additional +1 shield bonus to AC (for a total of +3) when wearing a shield. Magic Resistant: (Su) Fighters develop a special defence against the sinister magic powers that roam the world. At 4th level a Fighter gains a +1 competence bonus to saves against spells and spell-like effects. Furthermore he gains a +2 bonus to saves against Enchantment effects. At 8th level a Fighter gains another +1 competence bonus (for a total of +2) to saves against spells and spell-like effects. Furthermore he can re-roll a saving throw against a single spell or spell-like effect once per day as an immediate action. He must keep the second result. At 12th level a Fighter gains another +1 competence bonus (for a total of +3) to saves against spells and spell-like effects. Furthermore he can re-roll a save against spells or spell-like effects twice per day. He also can reflect a single spell or spell-like effect back onto the caster as per the spell turning spell once per day. At 16th level a Fighter gains another +1 competence bonus (for a total of +4) to saves against spells and spell-like effects. Furthermore he gains another use of his spell turning ability. At 20th level a Fighter gains another +1 competence bonus (for a total of +5) to saves against spells and spell-like effects. Furthermore he becomes immune to Charm and Compulsion effects. Bonus Feat: (Ex) At level 5 a Fighter can choose a single feat from the Fighter feat list (PHB, p. 90) and gain it as a bonus feat. He gains another bonus feat at level 10, 15 and 20. ***********THE END************ Well that’s it. With this variant you can make a daring and nimble arena combatant (Swashbuckler specialisation with Improved Feint style), a mighty general on horseback, rallying his troops (Militant specialisation with Mounted Combat style) or an ordinary hooligan specialising in bar fights (Thug specialisation with Unarmed Strike style). Even the Sword & Board Fighter is now viable, by combining the Armour Specialisation and Weapon Focus styles with Combat Master! Every single one of these options is a viable choice, powerful but not overpowered. They all share a plethora of bonus feats, they all excel in combat and not one of them will easy succumb to magical influence, as no Fighter should. Critique is very welcome. As is praise :) Edit Log Removed Knowledge (Dungeoneering) from the class list (Kudos to Tony Vargas). Removed Tower Shield Proficiency as a starting proficiency and added it to the Soldier and Combat Master proficiencies (Kudos to Steel Dragon).
diehardman22 03-24-05, 03:03 PM	UNBELEIVABLY NICE, exept if u dislike the bonus feat so much force something else on him and completely remove bonus feat from the fighter. If this sounds crazy sorry I am :cool: :rolleyes: ;) :) :( :D :embarrass :mad: :eek: :confused: :weep:
Xeviat-DM 03-24-05, 03:07 PM	Interesting. At first glance, I'm not sure I really like those magic resistance ideas; they just don't seem to have anything to do with being a Fighter. I understand where you're coming from, but this is partially why all characters have magical equipment; the fighter can easily boost their magic defenses with equipment. This may seem like a dependency, but casters are pretty crappy without equipment; heck some can't even cast spells when stripped of their equipment. I am listening to your style focus and specialization idea, but I think it would be better represented simply by turning some of those unique abilities into feats. I know it seems like I've flipflopped big time, but I'm growing to believe that the fighter should be strengthened with feats and a better class skill list. I do understand your desire to put something else on their class list though.
AramilWindwalker 03-24-05, 03:16 PM	I like it. it's different than just the "you're at an even level? here, take one of these feats" It makes it much more worth going 1-20 with the fighter. I think adding the resistant to magic effects stuff might take some explaining about their training or something, but altogether a solid class that shows you all the stuff you can do and still be a "fighter". :thumbsup: :thumbsup: for you.
FrinkiacVII 03-24-05, 03:41 PM	It's interesting, but I think it's too complicated for a core class. It could easily be split into 4 different classes for the 4 specializations you list. I like the idea of giving Fighters more skills and more skill points to spend on them, but I think some skills, among them Tumble, should belong exclusively to the Rogue and its many offshoot classes and PrC's. I disagree that the fighter should be the best there is at melee combat, I think the trick is to make them AS GOOD as the monk, barbarian, and paladin at higher levels while still making them fundamentally different at the same time. Of the fighter, barbarian, and monk, only the fighter can wear heavy armor without penalty. Maybe making the fighter the hardest to hit/ most able to absorb or shrug off damage would be good. Perhaps give them damage reduction/adamantine that increases as a function of level? You could get this as a PrC benefit or a magical ability of your armor already anyway, so all this really does is to free up those magic item slots for other things and make the option of staying in fighter instead of taking a PrC that much better. Since fighters are unable to cast spells of their own, I would think that some added defense against magic would be nice. Maybe give them Spell Resistance that increases as a function of level? Anyway, I would favor a modification of the Fighter core class over a total rewrite of the class from the ground up. All they really need to do, I my opinion, is add some special abilities that scale with level.
Tony Vargas 03-24-05, 03:46 PM	I'm probably not a good judge, since I'm quite fond of the elegance and customizeability of the PH fighter, but... You added Bluff, Sense Motive, and a couple of knowledges to the skill list, and doubled the skill points. This is kinda like the barbarian -the barb gets two good skills compared to the fighter, Survival & Listen, and two skill points to buy 'em with. You don't see a lot of 10+ INT barbs without survival and listen. Buff & Sense Motive are good skills, and with 2 extra points to buy them with, I'd expect this fighter to have them maxxed much of the time. Such a fighter would be exceedingly good at Feinting and resisting feints - and some of the styles make him even better... but, where's the payoff? Even an Improved Feint is rarely worth it unless you have sneak attack or some similar ability to enable with it. In the mean time, the fighter's become a master con-man? The Knowledge(Nobility) I can see, though - the knightly archetype is common enough that it makes some sense, and it's not a skill that's exceptionally potent, nor likely to draw a huge number of skill points away from the fighter. Dungeoneering I'm less keen on - yeah, it aplies to just about every PC in the typical kick-in-the-door game, but, to fighters in general, not really. And, of course, there's no knowledge (warfare) or anything like that... The Specializations are interesting. I don't like the name, because of past associations with Weapon Specialization, but it might have some potential. The idea of slightly re-tooling the fighter based on a choice at 1st level (rather like specialist wizards) isn't completely crazy. Magic Resistance: well, it'd certainly help, though the spell turning thing seems overboard to me, and a stronger rationale might be called for. Styles & bonus feats: I guess these add up to something like the number of feats the fighter already gets (though it varies with the style), but, it does take a lot of player choice out of the equation. There's cool feat combinations you can pull off quickly with the PH fighter that you couldn't do with this guy - though, that's also a positive for the idea, you didn't just create a strict power-up, like so many alternate fighters.
Szatany 03-24-05, 04:03 PM	My starting points are the following: The Fighter should be fun. If I look at class abilities, and all I see is “bonus feat”, it looks boring. Monks and Druids are cool, because of the funky things they can pull off. Fighters should have cool class abilities, without changing the spirit of the class. The Fighter should not be used as a 1/2/4 level dip. The Fighter should not be a weak prey to spellcasters. A single class should represent different Fighter archetypes (!). The Fighter should have more and better class skills. The Fighter should be the best Fighter of all classes. Period. Judging from this, you and I created variant fighters who accomplish very similar goals. Have a read. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=169285) I read your class and it is interesting (although I think some bonuses, like saves vs. magic, go to far (I'd max them at +3, but that's just me).
Clawhound 03-25-05, 10:18 AM	I like it. You've done your homework and really thought this out. This is the kind of thinking that fighter needed before it was designed. I've seen very few comprehensive rethinks of fighter, where someone tries to tackle all the problems. If nothing else, you've shown that a good rethink of fighter is quite profitable.
Maarten 03-25-05, 11:50 AM	Whew. First of all, thanks for all the reactions. I will address questions raised in chronological order: Interesting. At first glance, I'm not sure I really like those magic resistance ideas; they just don't seem to have anything to do with being a Fighter. I understand where you're coming from, but this is partially why all characters have magical equipment; the fighter can easily boost their magic defences with equipment. This may seem like a dependency, but casters are pretty crappy without equipment; heck some can't even cast spells when stripped of their equipment. You raise a valid point. I was in doubt about the magic resistant abilities myself too. I had three mayor reasons to include the magic resistant abilities: The fighter needs high level non-boring abilities. Like I said, you look at the monk and druid, and then look at the PHB fighter. Not interesting. Furthermore, I felt the fighter lacked a supernatural edge. Although you can argue the fighter is a mundane class at heart. IIRC the 2nd edition fighter was very resistant to magic. The fighter needed an overall power upping, and this was part of it. I am listening to your style focus and specialisation idea, but I think it would be better represented simply by turning some of those unique abilities into feats. Again, this is mainly to make the class feature list look cool. Feats could work, but that doesn't look interesting. Furthermore, feats make the abilities available to everybody, unless you make them all fighter only of course. But if you want to make a load of fighter only feats, I think you'd best leave them as class abilities. It's interesting, but I think it's too complicated for a core class. It could easily be split into 4 different classes for the 4 specialisations you list. Also a valid point, the difficulty of the class. I believe the class may look difficult at a first glance, but actually the mechanics are quite simple I think. Also, I think we should reduce the number of core classes to a minimum, and that's why I incorporated the Swash into this variant. But that is matter of my personal preference of course. I like the idea of giving Fighters more skills and more skill points to spend on them, but I think some skills, among them Tumble, should belong exclusively to the Rogue and its many offshoot classes and PrC's. I disagree. The monk can tumble, and the CW Swash can and should tumble. Tumbling IMHO is not an exclusive ability. Think of the real life thing, anyone can make tumbling moves if you put effort into it (you cannot use it untrained) and you are in good general shape (as adventurers are). I disagree that the fighter should be the best there is at melee combat, I think the trick is to make them AS GOOD as the monk, barbarian, and paladin at higher levels while still making them fundamentally different at the same time. My reasoning was that Barbarians, Monks and Paladins do things besides combat. The fighter does not. Barbarians have Spot, Listen and Survival as useful party-beneficial skills. They are fast and have Uncanny Dodge. Monks are self-dependant and have some good skills too, including knowledge. Paladins cast spells and increase morale. Fighters only fight. If fighters are not the best fighters of these four, they are fundamentally and inherently underpowered. Bluff & Sense Motive are good skills, and with 2 extra points to buy them with, I'd expect this fighter to have them maxxed much of the time. Such a fighter would be exceedingly good at Feinting and resisting feints - and some of the styles make him even better... but, where’s the payoff? Even an Improved Feint is rarely worth it unless you have sneak attack or some similar ability to enable with it. In the mean time, the fighter's become a master con-man? You raise a valid point in that the non-combat features of Bluff are not meant for the fighter. I didn’t consider that, thanks :) But I do think that as a Fighter, a warrior, you should have Sense Motive as a class skill, and be able to feint. In my view as a warrior, these are fundamental. I will have to think of a way to solve the “conman-issue” you raised. The Knowledge Dungeoneering I'm less keen on - yeah, it aplies to just about every PC in the typical kick-in-the-door game, but, to fighters in general, not really. And, of course, there's no knowledge (warfare) or anything like that... I was in doubt myself about Dungeneering. I wanted to add some Knowledge skills to make the class more interesting. I mistakenly interpertated dungeoneering as a Warfare skill. I’ll definately take it of the list. The Specializations are interesting. I don't like the name, because of past associations with Weapon Specialization, but it might have some potential You’re right about the name. I have considered several options, but I couldn’t find a name to be completely satisfactory. Do you have any suggestions? Again thanks for all the suggestions and compliments and stuff. If anyone can help me wit the following issues that haunt me af the moment: How to maintain the feinting part of bluff, while leaving out the ‘conman” part in an elegant way. A better name for specialisation or style. Solve the Magic Resistant issue. Discard it, replace it, keep it?
Tuneless Bard 03-25-05, 12:06 PM	fighters dont have to be boring, people just make them that way... besides...every class can benifit from a feat now and then....if there is something you need...how do you get it? put a level in fighter.... its basically a level sack in order to get a feat that you ordinarily would never be able to get... your set up seems like nothing more than a flashy level progression chart...this is what you can design if you use your fighter feats in this way... I say give the freedom back to the fighter....if i want to take two weapon fighting, weapon focus (short shord), and shield bash as my first three bonus feats than isnt that a type of fighter you should allow for? what about unarmed strike, combat expertise, and improved disarm? what about weapon focus(shortbow), weapon focus(shortsword), quickdraw? what about combat expertise, improved trip, combat reflexes? you'll end up making 1000 combat styles....when it could just be left as is... your true problem is that people dont know how to play a fighter...they dont specialize...they maximize...they think its all about attack and damage...and THATS boring...but if you avoid the power attack cleave great cleave specialization improved threat power critical monster than its very easy to make a fighter with style...
Tony Vargas 03-25-05, 12:38 PM	Again thanks for all the suggestions and compliments and stuff. If anyone can help me wit the following issues that haunt me af the moment: How to maintain the feinting part of bluff, while leaving out the ‘conman” part in an elegant way. A better name for specialisation or style. Solve the Magic Resistant issue. Discard it, replace it, keep it? Feint does take BAB into account, now, so it's not quite as egregious as it used to be, but, under 3.0, I addressed a similar issue. The solution I came up with was a feat, but you could just make it a class ability. I called it 'combat mastery' or something, but since you're using that name, I suppose you could call it 'Combat Skill...' Combat Skill: Fighters can be exceptionally skilled and well-trained in any aspect of combat, including skills with combat aplications. Whenever a fighter aplies a skill to combat (Bluff/Sense Motive to Feint, Tumble to Avoid AoOs, Listen to pinpoint an invisible foe, etc), his cross-class ranks from fighter levels are doubled for purposes of that check. Specialization is called 'school specialization' for wizards, this is a similar concept for the fighter, since it basicly makes it into a slightly different class, but 'specialization' already strongly connotes weapon specialization. Combat Style is probably just fine. The 'specializations' almost look like concepts ('swashbuckler' is a classic archetype)... hmm... concept, archetype, career, focus, school, style, path, tradition.... nah... I don't know. The fighter is about the only genuinely mundane class as it stands. The basic idea of magic resistance (which, BTW, is what SR used to be called) isn't a bad one - he doesn't gain any supernatural or even extraordinary abilities, that lack could point to an 'anti magical' nature or somesuch. Spell Turning's definitely going too far, though. ;)
Maarten 03-26-05, 01:12 PM	your set up seems like nothing more than a flashy level progression chart...this is what you can design if you use your fighter feats in this way... I say give the freedom back to the fighter....if i want to take two weapon fighting, weapon focus (short shord), and shield bash as my first three bonus feats than isnt that a type of fighter you should allow for? Yes, it is a flashy level progression chart. As I pointed out in the OP, a fighter needs a flashy chart IMHO. When I looked at the 3.0 fighter for the first time, a single word came to mind: boring. This chart doesn’t look boring. Besides, some features I think the fighter lacks cannot be adequately repaired with feats (class skills, different archetypes) and if you would make them feats, other classes could take them too. My fighter allows for the feats you mentioned. If you use a Combat Master you could have those feats at level 5 without resorting to level or race dependant feats. A vanilla fighter would have those feats at level 4. The difference is but a single level. your true problem is that people dont know how to play a fighter...they dont specialize...they maximize...they think its all about attack and damage...and THATS boring...but if you avoid the power attack cleave great cleave specialization improved threat power critical monster than its very easy to make a fighter with style... I don’t see how that relates to my fighter. Feint does take BAB into account, now, so it's not quite as egregious as it used to be, but, under 3.0, I addressed a similar issue. The solution I came up with was a feat, but you could just make it a class ability. I called it 'combat mastery' or something, but since you're using that name, I suppose you could call it 'Combat Skill...' Combat Skill: Fighters can be exceptionally skilled and well-trained in any aspect of combat, including skills with combat aplications. Whenever a fighter aplies a skill to combat (Bluff/Sense Motive to Feint, Tumble to Avoid AoOs, Listen to pinpoint an invisible foe, etc), his cross-class ranks from fighter levels are doubled for purposes of that check. Hmm, I like the idea. But the mechanic doesn’t really appeal to me. It doesn’t seem elegant. Perhaps a straight bonus dependant on fighter level would be better. But the idea is certainly a good one :) Specialization is called 'school specialization' for wizards, this is a similar concept for the fighter, since it basicly makes it into a slightly different class, but 'specialization' already strongly connotes weapon specialization. Combat Style is probably just fine. The 'specializations' almost look like concepts ('swashbuckler' is a classic archetype)... hmm... concept, archetype, career, focus, school, style, path, tradition.... nah... I don't know. This isn’t as easy as it seems. I think I like archetype or path best. The fighter is about the only genuinely mundane class as it stands. The basic idea of magic resistance (which, BTW, is what SR used to be called) isn't a bad one - he doesn't gain any supernatural or even extraordinary abilities, that lack could point to an 'anti magical' nature or somesuch. Spell Turning's definitely going too far, though. You’re probably right about the spell turning. That’s too much.
Steel Dragon 03-26-05, 01:41 PM	While I do enjoy the overall PHB Fighter, I must say that you've come up with a good alternative. However, I do feel that Tower Shield should be taken away as a general starting Profeciency for fighters. There isn't a logical way that a Mounted/Ranged Expert is tugging a 5' wooden tower shield around on their back. You'll also run into the lack of customability with this version of the fighter. If I want a Roman Soldier, I'll be taking medium armors, tower shield, and need feats such as Phalanx Fighting, as found in Complete Warrior. Or, what if I wanted the Spinning Halbert style found in Complete Warrior - according to that, I need a certain set of feats which being a "Bonus Feat" fighter would give me fairly easily. These paths reduce my ability to do such a thing - especially if you're going to try and become that "Exotic Weapon Master." While it's very well thought-out, and I do agree on the issues - in order for this to be workable, several feats, combat styles, etc.. need to be thrown out and have that be understood. Otherwise, you're going to need several other styles of fighters.
Maarten 03-26-05, 06:11 PM	While I do enjoy the overall PHB Fighter, I must say that you've come up with a good alternative. However, I do feel that Tower Shield should be taken away as a general starting Profeciency for fighters. There isn't a logical way that a Mounted/Ranged Expert is tugging a 5' wooden tower shield around on their back. Good catch and point taken. You'll also run into the lack of customability with this version of the fighter. If I want a Roman Soldier, I'll be taking medium armors, tower shield, and need feats such as Phalanx Fighting, as found in Complete Warrior. Or, what if I wanted the Spinning Halbert style found in Complete Warrior - according to that, I need a certain set of feats which being a "Bonus Feat" fighter would give me fairly easily. These paths reduce my ability to do such a thing - especially if you're going to try and become that "Exotic Weapon Master." As I pointed out earlier, my fighter can have almost the same number of bonus feats as the vanilla fighter. If you take the Combat Master specialisation you can make a fine roman soldier. Besides, even if a Roman Soldier could not be recreated with my variant, that would not be enough of a reason to discard my variant, as the Roman Soldier is a relatively rare and unusual archetype. While it's very well thought-out, and I do agree on the issues - in order for this to be workable, several feats, combat styles, etc.. need to be thrown out and have that be understood. Otherwise, you're going to need several other styles of fighters. I don’t understand why you believe certain combat styles and feats have to be thrown out. Could you elaborate? I would greatly appreciate your input :)
vassalich 03-26-05, 06:20 PM	I wouldn't say that Roman soldiers used tower shields, not by a longshot.
Maarten 03-29-05, 04:58 AM	:cheer: :bump: :cheer:
farghal 03-29-05, 06:05 AM	i have to agree with tuneless bard people just make the fighter boring if you set a goal when starting the fighter you can make it powerfull enough to get it balanced easy. but i also agree that the Fighter should not be used as a 1/2/4 level dip. but al this put aside you made a great class i'll give you that. I do think that the magic resistance it a little bit over the top. And may'be you should have certain specialisations have certain style focuses. that would solve the problem steel dragon put in. overall very nice ;) keep up the good work and good luck mate
Brom Blackforge 03-29-05, 12:19 PM	I almost replied to this thread before, but decided not to because I wasn’t sure that what I had to say was really going to be useful as a critique of this alternate fighter. I’m still not sure, but I decided to post anyway. :D I understand the desire to make the fighter’s class abilities look more interesting. However, I think that, instead of just seeing “bonus feat” over and over and thinking that it’s boring, you need to think about what those bonus feats could be. Basically, what you’ve done here is make those decisions in advance. Personally, I prefer simplicity. I think that this alternate fighter is needlessly complicated, and that you could do the same things by using either existing feats or new feats based on class abilities from other classes. And that would maximize the player’s ability to customize the fighter, a class feature that I think ought to be preserved.
Tony Vargas 03-29-05, 02:40 PM	Combat Skill: Fighters can be exceptionally skilled and well-trained in any aspect of combat, including skills with combat aplications. Whenever a fighter aplies a skill to combat (Bluff/Sense Motive to Feint, Tumble to Avoid AoOs, Listen to pinpoint an invisible foe, etc), his cross-class ranks from fighter levels are doubled for purposes of that check.Hmm, I like the idea. But the mechanic doesn’t really appeal to me. It doesn’t seem elegant. Perhaps a straight bonus dependant on fighter level would be better. But the idea is certainly a good one Darn, I thought it was elegant. :weep: Seriously, since it's based on cross-classing, it doesn't given the fighter who takes advantage of it an un-called-for advantage out of combat, and it also doesn't give just every fighter a bonus even if they don't use the given skill at all (it doesn't make much sense for the heavy-armor guy to get a per-level bonus to tumbling, for instance).