Post/Author/DateTime	Post
IdleAltruism 04-08-08, 07:15 PM	Recently one of my players asked if I would modify most of classes for his campaign. It is my goal to take the base classes and make them a bit more interesting and able to accomplish a broader selection then normally possible without multi-classing. I started with the fighter because it looked to be the easiest. I have plans on merging several classes together(mainly SwashBuckler/Scout/Rogue, Cleric/Druid, and possibly the whole line of warmage/dreadnecro/beguiler/warlock with sorcerer) I'm just tweaking with the system a bit, adding some things that I thought should be part of certain classes. Alot of what I'm doing is adding variants to classes to be actual parts of the class, as well as stealing parts from other peoples remade classes. I want to add a few special abilities that aren't just bonuses to rolls. I really hate X/day, X/encounter, X/anything. I want the abilities to take place of certain actions that are effective and usable whenever the need arises. I wasn't asked to tweak feats or spells(and I really don't have the time to attempt this) so I'm basically going to try and work around the current feats and spells available. At the moment I'm ignoring PrCs. I'm hoping with all the flashy new class abilities my group will forget about them and just use base classes until my little project is complete. I might modify some if they're requested. With the fighter I noticed some things just weren't possible within the current system(with just a pure fighter). I tried to make the specialties cover just about any kind of fighter you could want. I also tried to make the general abilities flexible enough to get alot of use and be useful to any type of fighter. I want to add some armor things in there somewhere, but I'm not sure what yet. Maybe add some bonus Armor effecting only feats. I was also thinking about moving combat parry and adamant resolve up some levels(not sure where though). I was thinking about self-healing/Hitpoint boosting stuff as well. I'm here to ask for any opinions, advice, and new ideas. I'm sure I've missed a couple fighter types that this class could cover, and I think there might be a few balance issues with the way it currently is. At the moment I'm not satisfied with the capstone ability(I want to rework and possibly add more abilities that use immediate/swift actions or enhance the use of abilities that do). Something about the class right now during the late levels seem a little off and I'm thinking about adding more specialties later on. I haven't made an unarmed ability yet, I won't until I've made a monk. If it turns out that they would step on monks toes to much then it won't be made. The Fighter http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97175.jpg Alignment: Any Class Skills: Balance(Dex), Climb(Str), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Escape Artist(Dex), Gather Information(Cha), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal, Intimidate(Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge(Dungeoneering, Geography, History, Local, Nobility)(Int), Listen(Wis), Ride(Dex), Search(Int), Sense Motive(Wis), Spot(Wis), Swim(Str), Tumble(Dex) Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int modifier Hit Dice: d10 BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities 1. +1 +2 +0 +0 Weapons Training, Bonus Feat 2. +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus Feat 3. +3 +3 +1 +1 Heroic Expertise 4. +4 +4 +1 +1 Adamant Resolve, Bonus Feat 5. +5 +4 +1 +1 Combat Specialty, Combat Maneuvers 6. +6 +5 +2 +2 Disrupting Attack, Bonus Feat 7. +7 +5 +2 +2 Mettle 8. +8 +6 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 9. +9 +6 +3 +3 Combat Parry 10. +10 +7 +3 +3 Weapon Master, Bonus Feat 11. +11 +7 +3 +3 Extended Reach 12. +12 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 13. +13 +8 +4 +4 14. +14 +9 +4 +4 Combat Form, Bonus Feat 15. +15 +9 +5 +5 16. +16 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 17. +17 +10 +5 +5 Combat Superiority 18. +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 19. +19 +11 +6 +6 20. +20 +12 +6 +6 Combat Mastery, Bonus Feat Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor(Heavy, Medium, and Light) and shields(including tower shields) Weapons Training (ex): Fighters train obsessively with armor and weapons of all kinds, and learning to use a new weapon is a simple task. By practicing with a weapon he is proficient with for 30 minutes, he can switch any feats specific to a single weapon to a different weapon he is proficient with. He may adjust any number of feats in this way, but he cannot change them in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisites for other feats he possesses. Bonus Feats: At first level, second level, and every even level thereafter the fighter gains a bonus feat. Heroic Expertise: Beginning at 3rd level a fighter may choose one of the following expertises. To apply their expertise the feats in question must be fighter bonus feats. -Dexterous Expertise: The fighter may choose to ignore the dexterity requirements of feats. -Intellectual Expertise: The fighter may choose to ignore the intelligence requirements of feats. -Wise Expertise: The fighter may choose to ignore the wisdom requirements of feats. Adamant Resolve: At 4th level as an immediate action a fighter may reduce his base attack bonus by up to one half and gain a bonus equal to the sacrificed amount on their will save, this effect last until the end of their next turn. Combat Specialty: At 5th level the fighter may choose one discipline to focus in and gains several benefits from doing so. -Powerful Specialty: Requires one feat thats effects a special attack that is modified by size(Tripping,Grappling,Bullrushing etc).The unique training, experiences, and abilities of a fighter lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a fighter is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the fighter is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A fighter is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. (Note: they don't get to wield larger size weapons) -Ranged Specialty: Requires Pointblank Shot. The fighter may use ranged weapons while being threatened and not provoke attacks of opportunity, additionally they gain their bonus from PBS at a range of 60ft. -Finesse Specialty: Requires Weapon Finesse and Dodge. Use dexterity instead of strength for bonus damage with finesse weapons, in addition their dodge bonus applies to all foes within 60ft. -Defensive Specialty: Requires Combat Expertise and Combat Reflexes. Gain an additional attack of opportunity per round per point used for Combat Expertise, in addition for every two points of attack bonus spent in Combat Expertise gain an additional +1 AC bonus. -Shield Specialty: Shield Specialization and Shield Bash. Whenever the fighter uses a shield and any other weapon they can apply all feats that would normally be transferable with Weapons Training to the shield and the other weapon, in addition they gain their shield bonus to their touch AC. -Weapon Mastery: You gain proficiency with all weapons and any transferable feats through Weapons Training is automatically applied to any weapon you wield, in addition you gain Quick Draw as a bonus feat. -General Specialty: No Requirements. Gain an additional bonus feat, in addition you gain an additional bonus feat at 10th, 15th and 20th level. Disrupting Attack: A Fighter of 6th level may delay his action in one round without compromising his Initiative in the next round. In addition, Whenever a fighter declares that they are readying an action they may use this ability in place of the normal specific readied action. As part of this action a fighter can take a 5ft step and make a single attack action(Note: This does grant the use of a 5ft step even if you've already moved that round). If you attempt a disarm or sunder you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. Mettle: At 7th level a fighter can resist magical or unusual attacks. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save(such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), they instead completely negate the effect. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle. Combat Parry: At 9th level as an immediate action the fighter gains the ability to counter enemy attacks with their own. As part of this immediate action the fighter makes an opposed attack roll, if this attack succeeds the fighter thwarts a single enemy attack, if it fails the enemy's attack is resolved as normal. Weapon Master: At 10th level fighter is a master of their weapons and can manipulate and utilize weapons in ways few others can. With this ability a fighter can change the damage type of his weapon to slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning. This affect activates automatically against corresponding damage reduction. In addition the fighter adds +1 to their attack and damage roles. Extended Reach: At 11th level the fighter has learned to master the area around them. A fighter gains 5ft to their reach. Combat Form: At 14th level a fighter has developed their own unique fighting style. The fighter gains a bonus +1 on attack and damage roles and a +2 bonus on all special attacks opposed checks(such as sunder/trip/bullrush etc) Combat Superiority: At 17th level a fighter’s prowess in combat allows them to take advantage of the slightest errors in an opponent’s guard. As a swift or immediate action the fighter can make an attack at their highest base attack bonus. Combat Mastery: A 20th level fighter can take 2 immediate actions in any round.
IdleAltruism 04-10-08, 03:16 PM	bump :(
NMX112 04-12-08, 01:39 AM	Well, here's another fighter fix that doesn't fix the true problem. Fighters must be allowed to polymorph/shapechange!!!1!one1! Anyway all joking aside I think this is an interesting fix, although regular fighter class can pretty much achieve the desired effect with feats. Granted it definitely allows the remaining feats to go toward more utility feats such as trip. Just my :twocents: Let the flame wars begin!
tenguroEd 04-12-08, 01:48 AM	It's not bad in my opinion. Although why not use the warblade's ability weapon aptitude in place of weapon training? it's essentially the same thing except for it doesn't have that 24 hour limit.
IdleAltruism 04-12-08, 01:53 AM	Posting! :D It's not bad in my opinion. Although why not use the warblade's ability weapon aptitude in place of weapon training? it's essentially the same thing except for it doesn't have that 24 hour limit. Good spot, I don't remember where I copied it from tbh. I've changed it and I will be looking up the warblades ability for more specific wording.
nonsi 04-12-08, 11:11 AM	Click my sig and I believe you'll find everything you're looking for. If you have any questions / remarks / reservations, post them (preferably in my thread) and I'll be happy to reply.
aelryinth 04-12-08, 01:16 PM	QUOTE=IdleAltruism The Fighter Alignment: Any Class Skills: Balance(Dex), Climb(Str), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Escape Artist(Dex), Gather Information(Cha), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal,Intimidate(Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge(Dungeoneering, Geography, History, Local, Nobility)(Int), Listen(Wis), Ride(Dex), Search(Int), Sense Motive(Wis), Spot(Wis), Swim(Str), Tumble(Dex) Point of order here: Skills available should be approximately 2x skill points, or 8 skills. Knowledge skills are lumped as one. If you want to, say, make 4 skills always available, and then choose 4 more as potential class skills, that gives the Fighter his 'bonus' feel and flexibility. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int modifier Hit Dice: d10 BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities 1. +1 +2 +0 +0 Weapons Training, Bonus Feat 2. +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus Feat 3. +3 +3 +1 +1 Heroic Expertise 4. +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat 5. +5 +4 +1 +1 Combat Specialty 6. +6 +5 +2 +2 Disrupting Attack, Bonus Feat 7. +7 +5 +2 +2 Mettle 8. +8 +6 +2 +2 Adamant Resolve, Bonus Feat 9. +9 +6 +3 +3 10. +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 11. +11 +7 +3 +3 Combat Parry 12. +12 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 13. +13 +8 +4 +4 Combat Form 14. +14 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 15. +15 +9 +5 +5 Weapon Master 16. +16 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 17. +17 +10 +5 +5 Combat Superiority 18. +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 19. +19 +11 +6 +6 Warriors Resilience 20. +20 +12 +6 +6 Combat Mastery, Bonus Feat Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor(Heavy, Medium, and Light) and shields(including tower shields) He should be able to swap tower shields for extreme shields, as a side note. I would highly recommend in your campaign that armor and weapon profs only be available at level 1. Furthermore, don't let mithral ignore prof reqs. Weapons Training (ex): Fighters train obsessively with armor and weapons of all kinds, and learning to use a new weapon is a simple task. By practicing with a weapon he is proficient with for 30 minutes, he can switch any feats specific to a single weapon to a different weapon he is proficient with. He may adjust any number of feats in this way, but he cannot change them in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisites for other feats he possesses. This is very common. I would simply fold it into Weapon Focus, if taken as a Fighter bonus feat. Ergo, you don't need the ability as a class ability if you never take the spec chain. The idea is to drive the spec chain, AND make it apply to multiple weapons. Bonus Feats: At first level, second level, and every even level thereafter the fighter gains a bonus feat. Fighter Bonus Feat. Make it BIG. Make it capital. Make it important! FIghter Bonus Feat should BE something...just like manuvers are. Fighters should get more out of their bonus feats then anyone who takes them as a General Feat. This is a problem with feats, as well as the Fighter. Heroic Expertise: Beginning at 3rd level a fighter may choose one of the following expertises. To apply their expertise the feats in question must be fighter bonus feats. -Dexterous Expertise: The fighter may choose to ignore the dexterity requirements of feats. -Intellectual Expertise: The fighter may choose to ignore the intelligence requirements of feats. -Wise Expertise: The fighter may choose to ignore the wisdom requirements of feats. All of these should just be folded into Master of Feats: The Fighter ignores ability score requirements on any feat he takes as a Fighter Bonus Feat. Combat Specialty: At 5th level the fighter may choose one discipline to focus in and gains several benefits from doing so. -Powerful Specialty: Requires one feat thats effects a special attack that is modified by size(Tripping,Grappling,Bullrushing etc).The unique training, experiences, and abilities of a fighter lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a fighter is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the fighter is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A fighter is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. (Note: they don't get to wield larger size weapons) -Ranged Specialty: Requires Pointblank Shot. The fighter may use ranged weapons while being threatened and not provoke attacks of opportunity, additionally they gain their bonus from PBS at a range of 60ft. -Finesse Specialty: Requires Weapon Finesse and Dodge. Use dexterity instead of strength for bonus damage with finesse weapons, in addition their dodge bonus applies to all foes within 60ft. -Defensive Specialty: Requires Combat Expertise and Combat Reflexes. Gain an additional attack of opportunity per round per point used for Combat Expertise, in addition for every two points of attack bonus spent in Combat Expertise gain an additional +1 AC bonus. -Shield Specialty: Shield Specialization and Shield Bash. Whenever the fighter uses a shield and any other weapon they can apply all feats that would normally be transferable with Weapons Training to the shield and the other weapon, in addition they gain their shield bonus to their touch AC. -Weapon Mastery: You gain proficiency with all weapons and any transferable feats through Weapons Training is automatically applied to any weapon you wield, in addition you gain Quick Draw as a bonus feat. -General Specialty: No Requirements. Gain an additional bonus feat, in addition you gain an additional bonus feat at 10th, 15th and 20th level. I would simply make all of the above extensions of the feats themselves, which gives the Fighter the benefit of them without having to 'spend' class abilities on them. Instead, give them something that can't be duplicated by feats, and let the feats scale simply because they are FIghter Bonus Feats. Disrupting Attack: At 6th level a fighter can hold their action to disrupt their enemies actions. Whenever a fighter declares that they are readying an action they may use this ability in place of the normal specific readied action. As part of this action a fighter can take a 5ft step and make a single attack action(Note: This does grant the use of a 5ft step even if you've already moved that round). If you attempt a disarm or sunder you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can take a 5' step as part of a readied action anyway. Actually, you can do a partial charge. This is a non-ability. Mettle: At 7th level a fighter can resist magical or unusual attacks. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save(such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), they instead completely negate the effect. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle. This is generally only available to classes with a good Will save. Adamant Resolve: At 9th level as an immediate action a fighter may reduce his base attack bonus by up to one half and gain a bonus equal to the sacrificed amount on their will save, this effect last until the end of their next turn. This should be a qualifier for Mettle, not a successor to it. Once they have this, they definitely 'have metal', as it were. I would depart from the normal definition. As worded, once I got it, I don't need any more Fighter levels to use it to maximum extent..a F/9 Barb/11 gets the same benefit as a f/20. Thus, I'd reword it to gain a bonus = their number of Fighter Bonus feats on their will save. This slightly improves it (by +1), and makes continuing Fighter levels important. Combat Parry: At 11th level as an immediate action the fighter gains the ability to counter enemy attacks with their own. As part of this immediate action the fighter makes an opposed attack roll, if this attack succeeds the fighter thwarts a single enemy attack, if it fails the enemy's attack is resolved as normal. This is nice...it's the Warblade ability to sub an attack roll for AC. Note this is possibly abusable with AC tanking uber charger builds, so you might want to be careful. The best use of it is a higher Touch AC. Combat Form: At 13th level a fighter has developed their own unique fighting style. The fighter gains a bonus +1 on attack and damage roles and a +2 bonus on all special attacks opposed checks(such as sunder/trip/bullrush etc) Mmmm. I'd be just defaulting up the spec tree ladder by levels. As a guideline, look at the default Int-based stuff the Warblade gets, and consider something based on Fighter Bonus Feats. Weapon Master: At 15th level fighter is a master of their weapons and can manipulate and utilize weapons in ways few others can. With this ability a fighter can change the damage type of his weapon to slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning. This affect activates automatically against corresponding damage reduction. In addition the fighter adds +1 to their attack and damage roles. Add this to one of the Spec tree abilities. Perhaps Greater Weapon Spec. Combat Superiority: At 17th level a fighter’s prowess in combat allows them to take advantage of the slightest errors in an opponent’s guard. As a swift or immediate action the fighter can make an attack at their highest base attack bonus. This bonus does not stack with what? Note that this is stronger then two attacks as a standard action, and even then flurry, since it has no penalty. heck, an extra free attack is probably better then Weapon Supremacy. Warriors Resilience: At 19th level a fighter gains the ability to shrug off damage that would normally be fatal. By taking an immediate action a fighter can make a fortitude save to ignore damage that would normally take them below zero hitpoints. The DC of this save is equal to the amount of negative hitpoints the fighter would have from the attack. If the save is successful the fighter ignores the damage. Ah, from the crusader class. Hmm. A very powerful high level ability. I would halve the damage, down to a minimum of 1. He shouldn't get away scott free from being stupid. Combat Mastery: A 20th level fighter can take 2 immediate actions in any round. This is really strong. A more correct wording would be 'the first immediate action in a round the fighter takes does not count towards his limit of one immediate action per round.' or 'one immediate action per round is treated as a free action instead.' I would also say that, given some of the abilities above, it might be overpowered. You now get two parries a round, or two extra attacks at full BAB, as you like. That's a very strong capstone. I would perhaps downtone it. Take your attack as an immediate action, devolve it down to a swift action, above, and then use this capstone to make it an immediate action. You could still potentially get two attacks off in one turn, but it would shaft your defense, and brings tactics back into the game. It gives you a possible 'finishing blow' out of turn order, if you care to spend it. Note that the real heart of the FIghter's problem is not with the class, but with the feats. To really revise the FIghter, you need to look at feats, and at Fighter Bonus Feats being something as important as Initiator Level and Spellcaster Level. ==Aelryinth
aelryinth 04-12-08, 01:27 PM	If you would like some advice on things to look at, check out the Fighter vs Warblade post on Regdar's that I have linked in my signature. It should give you some good ideas on the problems to focus on. I don't preach any specific builds, as we all want different things for our Fighters...I just give you some very simple problems the Fighter has been saddled with, and alternative ways to address them. ===Aelryinth
IdleAltruism 04-12-08, 03:44 PM	I would simply make all of the above extensions of the feats themselves, which gives the Fighter the benefit of them without having to 'spend' class abilities on them. Instead, give them something that can't be duplicated by feats, and let the feats scale simply because they are FIghter Bonus Feats. As I said in my original post, I don't really have the time to do an overhaul on feats. I'm really just trying to get the fighter to a point that they can do most of(if not all) the basic Archetypes of the fighter class with proficiency and effectiveness. All of the other classes will follow suit(although the ToB/ToM and similar books might not make the cut because of time and the massive amount of variables the alternative systems bring, spells are bad enough). You can take a 5' step as part of a readied action anyway. Actually, you can do a partial charge. This is a non-ability. Actually this provides several benefits. Potentially with this you could move up to a foe(lets say a caster) ready an action, take a 5ft step(which you normally couldn't do because you moved) and interrupt their spell. It adds some small benefits like the opponent you used it against can't take AoO if you don't have the improved sunder/disarm feats. I also like to think it would be used defensively with disarm/sunder attempts against pesky foes that attack your backline.It also allows them to swap this action instead of any stated action they wished to take. I think that could be one of the main uses for it though(always having two options for readied actions can be nice) This is generally only available to classes with a good Will save. This should be a qualifier for Mettle, not a successor to it. Once they have this, they definitely 'have metal', as it were. I would depart from the normal definition. As worded, once I got it, I don't need any more Fighter levels to use it to maximum extent..a F/9 Barb/11 gets the same benefit as a f/20. Thus, I'd reword it to gain a bonus = their number of Fighter Bonus feats on their will save. This slightly improves it (by +1), and makes continuing Fighter levels important. Would swapping the levels of the abilities work? I wanted to move adamant resolve up, but I wasn't sure what level. Or should I move both of them up? This bonus does not stack with what? Note that this is stronger then two attacks as a standard action, and even then flurry, since it has no penalty. heck, an extra free attack is probably better then Weapon Supremacy. I feel that an average fighter should get something extra on a charge/standard action(There will be no way shape or form to get pounce). I'm thinking about making it an immediate action only, making it more of a defensive ability(although I would like to add more of these types of abilities to give more options, I think I'll look at maneuvers for some inspiration) I'm now thinking about an ability for standard action attacks and charging. I've thought of similar abilities for the Rogue/Monk/Paladin(I'm thinking an Auto-Sneak attack as a standard action , a sort of 1 hit blows up a brick wall type of punch for the monk, and a standard action smite for the paladin). Maybe some kind of standard for all martial classes to have a standard action attack maneuver? Ah, from the crusader class. Hmm. A very powerful high level ability. I would halve the damage, down to a minimum of 1. He shouldn't get away scott free from being stupid. I'm just not sure what to do with this ability, I don't actually like it personally. I want some more defensive abilities, but I'm kind of stuck atm. [I]This is really strong. A more correct wording would be 'the first immediate action in a round the fighter takes does not count towards his limit of one immediate action per round.' or 'one immediate action per round is treated as a free action instead.' I would also say that, given some of the abilities above, it might be overpowered. You now get two parries a round, or two extra attacks at full BAB, as you like. Maybe add that the same immediate action can't be used more then once? I want some more options for this capstone, I kind of want it to do more. Maybe taking two swift actions instead and adding more swift action abilities would be more balanced? Keep the defensive abilities at a 1/round and the offensive ones separate,or maybe allow the use of swift actions even if you used an immediate one?. In your opinion does this version of the fighter make it easier to make effective builds for fighters? Would it be to powerful in a standard game? If so how much? What do you like/not like most about the class? What do you feel should be added/taken out to make it better. These questions are for everyone who will take the time to answer them. Thank you all for your responses, keep them coming :D.
NMX112 04-12-08, 04:25 PM	Click my sig and I believe you'll find everything you're looking for. If you have any questions / remarks / reservations, post them (preferably in my thread) and I'll be happy to reply. ..Wait a tick! do I smell an attempted thread hijack?
IdleAltruism 04-12-08, 04:59 PM	Click my sig and I believe you'll find everything you're looking for. If you have any questions / remarks / reservations, post them (preferably in my thread) and I'll be happy to reply. Thx for the link, but ithat's really not what I'm looking for. I don't believe your class will fit very well with the concepts I'm trying to achieve. I find them to be a bit to static for my goals, I want options, lots and lots of options. I don't want a fighter bonus feat every level(it will lead to the breaking of the class). I'm looking for class abilities right now that will be somewhat unique to the fighter. I like the idea of using the number of fighter bonus feats as a guideline for something, but what I'm not sure yet. I'm thinking about adding some types of strike and full attack action specialties. Instead of just full attacking or standard action attacks allow them something unique to fighters(maybe to all martial classes).
Leress 04-12-08, 06:10 PM	Thx for the link, but ithat's really not what I'm looking for. I don't believe your class will fit very well with the concepts I'm trying to achieve. I find them to be a bit to static for my goals, I want options, lots and lots of options. I don't want a fighter bonus feat every level(it will lead to the breaking of the class). That's pretty odd to say since that is pretty much what this class has, and it doesn't look broken in the least. All it really does it moves around small bonus all over the place, and makes having some feats slightly better. I'm looking for class abilities right now that will be somewhat unique to the fighter. I like the idea of using the number of fighter bonus feats as a guideline for something, but what I'm not sure yet. Many feats can be combined together to make a good ability. I'm thinking about adding some types of strike and full attack action specialties. Instead of just full attacking or standard action attacks allow them something unique to fighters(maybe to all martial classes). okay. Here is the fighter I use... (scroll down) http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=33294 It may have some idea you could use.
IdleAltruism 04-12-08, 08:45 PM	http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=33294 It may have some idea you could use. Ty for the link, it was very helpful. I've moved some things around and tweaked disrupting attack. I'm going to remove Warriors resilience. I also added the extend reach ability, something I completely forgot about. I am thinking about 5 different types of abilities I want to add:3-5 of the strikes/Full Attack special actions I mentioned earlier, 1-3 Floating feats(feat slots that are interchangeable), 4-6(Including the ones already there)Defensive abilities(in general AC/Save related), 2-3 Buffing/DeBuffing/Disabling abilities, and 1-2 Ally benefiting abilities. I want the strike/full attack actions to enhance their ability to fight at any time. I think at least 1-2 will be modeled after ToB strikes, possibly with extra damage or DR ignoring options(Basically giving them some options with standard actions). I'm not exactly sure what to do with the full attack action versions. Maybe an ability or two of Full round actions that do X, and an ability that adds some sort of bonus for full attacking. For the floating feats I'm not exactly sure how I want to limit them. Possibly cost them a swift action to gain a feat for a round? For the defensive abilities I want to add something for AC, maybe something like an improved Full Defense action, and possibly an ability that can affect/help/defend allies. For the buffing/debuffing/disabling I want to add some variety to the fighters offensive abilities. Adding something like stunning/giving penalties/possibly adding bonuses to allies of some type. For the ally benefiting abilities I kind of want a passive ability, not sure what yet. Maybe a flanking bonus/defensive bonus for adjacent allies. If anyone has any ideas please feel free to share :D .
JaronK 04-12-08, 08:49 PM	My honest feeling is that the Warblade is basically the Fighter fix, and it worked very well (unless you want to be an archer), so it's a good idea to look to that with any homebrew fixes. JaronK
IdleAltruism 04-12-08, 11:59 PM	My honest feeling is that the Warblade is basically the Fighter fix, and it worked very well (unless you want to be an archer), so it's a good idea to look to that with any homebrew fixes. JaronK I like the warblade on some parts, but I don't like the maneuver system. I like the ToB's supernatural warrior type of feel, but I don't think of it as a fix. To me its like a rogue vs a swordsage. They can accomplish similar things, but they feel different even when built the same. I'm not just trying to fix fighters, personally I think they are manageable in an average game. I'm redoing alot of the base classes. In the upcoming game I doubt the ToB/ToM and similar books will be used(to start psionics probably won't be either). If I was just trying to remake the fighter by itself for standard D&D then I probably would use a warblade. Although I am taking inspiration from the ToB, a lot of maneuvers will be implemented and modified in the upcoming classes.
squidyak 04-13-08, 11:58 AM	Overall I like it. I especially like the addition of mettle and heroic expertise. Not a big fan of the combat specialties, those just seem like feats to me.
Bringer of autumn 04-13-08, 03:35 PM	Maybe a quick fix is just adding special abilities to fighters? Like the Rogue has.
aelryinth 04-13-08, 05:15 PM	Don't worry about the 'level' of abilities. Pounce used to be found only at Epic levels. Now, you can get it atlevel 1 barbarian. So, if you want Adamant Resolve at level 5, stick it at level 5, and give them Mettle at 7. Neither ability is overpowered, especially Mettle, and Resolve scales...low power at low levels, high power at high levels, where it needs to be. I will note that a feat every level for a fighter is FAR from broken. A Warblade, by the time he is done at level 20, has passed through about 42 feat-equivalents. The fighter, getting a mere 20, is NOT going to be broken. A simple mechanic to give the fighter is Sneak Attack dice, which are basically doing extra damage for tactical thinking. Sure, it steps on the toes of the rogue...but the rogue can grab feats, no reason the fighter shouldn't be able to grab sneak attack dmg. The Fighter tends to be very balanced on offense with the spec tree, so giving him the spec tree for free is a good thing to do...and frees up like 6 feats. Likewise, he should have weapon aptitude for swapping around his supremacy...the abiltiy didn't exist at the time the class was created, and is anything but overpowered. Really, the difference between the fighter and the warblade is manuvers tend to grant variable bonuses and damage, and feats grant fairly static bonuses and damage. A warblade can be built and feel just like a fighter, if that's the way you play them...they just get to do more on top of it then a fighter gets to do. ===Aelryinth
IdleAltruism 04-14-08, 07:37 PM	I'm thinking about adding some of these combat maneuvers(or something similar to them). I don't have the time today, but I'll work on them sometime later int he week. These maneuvers will probably be standard action attacks/fullround action attacks. I want to add a strike that gives a penalty to enemy attack. Possibly scaling with levels, and possibly being able to sub out combat bonuses to AC to give a penalty to that foes to hit. I was thinking about after level 6 adding a strike that gives a bonus on damage(probably in d6s). I'm not sure how I should scale it, possibly 1d6 per 2 levels? Something to make a standard action attack worthwhile later on, or at least more potent. I was looking at the feat Lunging attack from the PHB2 and I was thinking about making a standard action version of it. I'm not a huge fan of the feat, and at first glance it looks underpowered. Does anyone have any opinions about it? I'm also trying to make up an improved version of taking full defense action, something that will help allies. Not sure how I'm going to go about this, maybe add a set or scaling bonus to adjacent allies AC and keep threatening squares(possibly threaten squares that adjacent allies do as well?). Any ideas for different types of maneuvers for standard actions/full round actions?
nonsi 04-15-08, 04:32 PM	IdleAltruism, I believe I've already provided for everything you need: >> I'm really just trying to get the fighter to a point that they can do most of >> (if not all) the basic Archetypes of the fighter class with proficiency and effectiveness. A good combatant should be able to do a lot of things well, but nobody does everything well. >> Actually this provides several benefits. Potentially with this you could >> move up to a foe (lets say a caster) ready an action, take a 5ft step >> (which you normally couldn't do because you moved) and interrupt their spell. -- >> I've thought of similar abilities for the Rogue/Monk/Paladin . . . Maybe >> some kind of standard >> for all martial classes to have a standard action attack maneuver? -- >> Maybe taking two swift actions instead and adding more swift action >> abilities would be more >> balanced? Keep the defensive abilities at a 1/round and the offensive >> ones separate,or maybe >> allow the use of swift actions even if you used an immediate one? -- >> Instead of just full attacking or standard action attacks allow them >> something unique to fighters >> (maybe to all martial classes). Check out my revised rules: "actions redefinitions" and "multiple attacks and movement" to simplify things without having to break your head about creating multiple class features. "Adamant Resolve"... My "Combat Resolve" is more appropriate thematically, because it emphasizes in-battle resolve and provides an overall better protection. Add "Combat Focus" plus "Combat Stability" plus "Combat Vigor" and you'll gain all the benefits you're talking about and much more - and it will also remind you that even with a very large array of feats you quickly find it difficult to decide where to invest them. >> I want some more defensive abilities, but I'm kind of stuck atm. Check out "Shields’ AC Adjustments" and "Shield Another" options. >> I want some more options for this capstone I find capstone abilities overrated. Afterall, life don't end at level 20. >> Thx for the link, but ithat's really not what I'm looking for. >> don't believe your class will fit very well with the concepts I'm trying to >> achieve. >> I find them to be a bit to static for my goals, I want options, lots and lots of options. With 8 added class features plus a major skill boost plus 3 extra feats, you could virtually realize any warrior archetype you can dream of to the fullest (especially if you allow swapping Evasion with Mettle). That's the very definition of "lots and lots of options". >> I don't want a fighter bonus feat every level(it will lead to the breaking of the class). To this day, I never saw a pure-Fighter being broken with feats. and it's not every level, just 3 extra - spread on 20 levels. >> I'm thinking about adding some types of strike and full attack action specialties I believe here's where "Counter Attack", "Find the Crack" and "Ripost" will come to the rescue. >> I am thinking about 5 different types of abilities I want to add >> 3-5 of the strikes/Full Attack covered >> 1-3 Floating feats(feat slots that are interchangeable), too few - would drastically reduce build flexibility >> 4-6(Including the ones already there)Defensive abilities(in general AC/Save related), again, "Shields’ AC Adjustments" and "Shield Another" options. >> 2-3 Buffing/DeBuffing/Disabling abilities >> 1-2 Ally benefiting abilities. ditto . . . plus [multiple attacks and movement] According to the way you describe things, I believe all you'll be doing is make all Fighters very similar to one another. A Juggernaut cares very little for defending others. An unfettered type gains nothing from heavy armor. Archer does nothing for Buffing/DeBuffing (except for "Distracting Shot" ACF). etc. >> an ability that adds some sort of bonus for full attacking. I'll incorporate something on this matter into "Find the Crack" in the next few days. >> Lunging attack Redundant, if you adopt "multiple attacks and movement".
IdleAltruism 04-15-08, 06:59 PM	A good combatant should be able to do a lot of things well, but nobody does everything well. Thats not what I meant. There are several Archetypes the fighter should be able to cover but can't(TWF, Sword and board, Defender) What I'm trying to make those options more attractive to pure fighters(my goal is to stay away from multi-classing) Check out my revised rules: "actions redefinitions" and "multiple attacks and movement" to simplify things without having to break your head about creating multiple class features. I can create class features that can serve my purpose without much of a problem, but atm I'm bogged down with alot of school work. I don't have much time to work on them. Class features for me are easier to balance, I know the ins and outs of this system and can work around that. Also these classes are based on a very different campaign setting, with slightly different challenges(monsters are more unique). So I'm designing the classes around that. My "Combat Resolve" is more appropriate thematically, because it emphasizes in-battle resolve and provides an overall better protection. Add "Combat Focus" plus "Combat Stability" plus "Combat Vigor" and you'll gain all the benefits you're talking about and much more - and it will also remind you that even with a very large array of feats you quickly find it difficult to decide where to invest them. Imo it isn't. I like the adamant resolve because it takes up an immediate action(which I want my defensive abilities tied to). The +4 on will saves comes way to early and he passes up classes with good will saves with it(essentially giving him a partially good save, which I'm not personally a fan of. Just give them a good will if you want it that way. Kind of like the swashbucklers grace, whats the point(other then insane reflexes on rogues with a feat). Adamant resolve provides a choice, which I find makes the classes more enjoyable to play(more tactically inclined). Check out "Shields’ AC Adjustments" and "Shield Another" options. This is sorta what I'm after, although if I decide to use something like this I'll modify it. I find capstone abilities overrated. Afterall, life don't end at level 20. Yes, but they can lead to interesting epic feats and abilities :D With 8 added class features plus a major skill boost plus 3 extra feats, you could virtually realize any warrior archetype you can dream of to the fullest (especially if you allow swapping Evasion with Mettle). That's the very definition of "lots and lots of options". One of the bigger problems I have with your class remake some of its abilities rely on things it may or may not have. A good reflex for evasion(evasion is to a lesser extent, but a way to modify their reflex would be handy) and spot on find the crack. Thematically no hero can be caught flat-footed and they always dodge the nasty fireball, but I think D&D gives separate classes those abilities for a reason. Although some abilities are better than others because of DMing style ,and because of this I understand why having all of them seems like an attractive option, I still believe that adding Uncanny Dodge/Evasion is stepping on the toes of other classes(make them spend a feat for it, they're fighters its what they do :D ). I want the classes abilities to be more unique and general than Uncanny dodge(imo thats a feat if I ever heard one) To this day, I never saw a pure-Fighter being broken with feats. and it's not every level, just 3 extra - spread on 20 levels. I like the amount of feats the fighters get currently(and one of the combat specialities allows for more if you really need them). I think it will suit my purpose, although I do want the addition of a floater feat or two. With the combination of maneuvers/special abilities I think it will find a nice balance. I believe here's where "Counter Attack", "Find the Crack" and "Ripost" will come to the rescue. Actually I don't like any of those, and I believe feats/certain builds can meet all of those functions. Counter attack is the most interesting of the 3, but I don't really like it functionally. How does it play with your modified actions? Find the Crack is based on spot, I don't want any class abilities to be based on skills, special uses of skills sometimes, but not solely on them(thats PrC territory), something I plan on remedying with the bard. Look at the Truename for an extreme example. Also skills are to easy to abuse, and I believe there is a similar rogueish feat that does something similar. According to the way you describe things, I believe all you'll be doing is make all Fighters very similar to one another. A Juggernaut cares very little for defending others. An unfettered type gains nothing from heavy armor. Archer does nothing for Buffing/DeBuffing (except for "Distracting Shot" ACF). etc. Not necessarily. I just want to change some uses for standard actions to make them more useful later on, so a fighter doesn't need to full attack all the time to be very effective(also give some variety). The abilities should be general enough for every fighter to use and in many cases should improve various builds like Heavy armored warriors and defender types. Like I said before, general usefulness is what I'm after. I'll incorporate something on this matter into "Find the Crack" in the next few days. As I said before I don't personally like this ability. I see lots of abuse(mostly power attack and chargers, just like wraith strike). Redundant, if you adopt "multiple attacks and movement". I like the idea of the original rules better for more tactical movement and uses of standard actions/move actions/full-round actions. I think with some of my class features these could be really fun to use. Although I love the full attack on the move option you have and I'm going to steal it ;)
IdleAltruism 04-08-08, 07:15 PM	Recently one of my players asked if I would modify most of classes for his campaign. It is my goal to take the base classes and make them a bit more interesting and able to accomplish a broader selection then normally possible without multi-classing. I started with the fighter because it looked to be the easiest. I have plans on merging several classes together(mainly SwashBuckler/Scout/Rogue, Cleric/Druid, and possibly the whole line of warmage/dreadnecro/beguiler/warlock with sorcerer) I'm just tweaking with the system a bit, adding some things that I thought should be part of certain classes. Alot of what I'm doing is adding variants to classes to be actual parts of the class, as well as stealing parts from other peoples remade classes. I want to add a few special abilities that aren't just bonuses to rolls. I really hate X/day, X/encounter, X/anything. I want the abilities to take place of certain actions that are effective and usable whenever the need arises. I wasn't asked to tweak feats or spells(and I really don't have the time to attempt this) so I'm basically going to try and work around the current feats and spells available. At the moment I'm ignoring PrCs. I'm hoping with all the flashy new class abilities my group will forget about them and just use base classes until my little project is complete. I might modify some if they're requested. With the fighter I noticed some things just weren't possible within the current system(with just a pure fighter). I tried to make the specialties cover just about any kind of fighter you could want. I also tried to make the general abilities flexible enough to get alot of use and be useful to any type of fighter. I want to add some armor things in there somewhere, but I'm not sure what yet. Maybe add some bonus Armor effecting only feats. I was also thinking about moving combat parry and adamant resolve up some levels(not sure where though). I was thinking about self-healing/Hitpoint boosting stuff as well. I'm here to ask for any opinions, advice, and new ideas. I'm sure I've missed a couple fighter types that this class could cover, and I think there might be a few balance issues with the way it currently is. At the moment I'm not satisfied with the capstone ability(I want to rework and possibly add more abilities that use immediate/swift actions or enhance the use of abilities that do). Something about the class right now during the late levels seem a little off and I'm thinking about adding more specialties later on. I haven't made an unarmed ability yet, I won't until I've made a monk. If it turns out that they would step on monks toes to much then it won't be made. The Fighter http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97175.jpg Alignment: Any Class Skills: Balance(Dex), Climb(Str), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Escape Artist(Dex), Gather Information(Cha), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal, Intimidate(Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge(Dungeoneering, Geography, History, Local, Nobility)(Int), Listen(Wis), Ride(Dex), Search(Int), Sense Motive(Wis), Spot(Wis), Swim(Str), Tumble(Dex) Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int modifier Hit Dice: d10 BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities 1. +1 +2 +0 +0 Weapons Training, Bonus Feat 2. +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus Feat 3. +3 +3 +1 +1 Heroic Expertise 4. +4 +4 +1 +1 Adamant Resolve, Bonus Feat 5. +5 +4 +1 +1 Combat Specialty, Combat Maneuvers 6. +6 +5 +2 +2 Disrupting Attack, Bonus Feat 7. +7 +5 +2 +2 Mettle 8. +8 +6 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 9. +9 +6 +3 +3 Combat Parry 10. +10 +7 +3 +3 Weapon Master, Bonus Feat 11. +11 +7 +3 +3 Extended Reach 12. +12 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 13. +13 +8 +4 +4 14. +14 +9 +4 +4 Combat Form, Bonus Feat 15. +15 +9 +5 +5 16. +16 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 17. +17 +10 +5 +5 Combat Superiority 18. +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 19. +19 +11 +6 +6 20. +20 +12 +6 +6 Combat Mastery, Bonus Feat Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor(Heavy, Medium, and Light) and shields(including tower shields) Weapons Training (ex): Fighters train obsessively with armor and weapons of all kinds, and learning to use a new weapon is a simple task. By practicing with a weapon he is proficient with for 30 minutes, he can switch any feats specific to a single weapon to a different weapon he is proficient with. He may adjust any number of feats in this way, but he cannot change them in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisites for other feats he possesses. Bonus Feats: At first level, second level, and every even level thereafter the fighter gains a bonus feat. Heroic Expertise: Beginning at 3rd level a fighter may choose one of the following expertises. To apply their expertise the feats in question must be fighter bonus feats. -Dexterous Expertise: The fighter may choose to ignore the dexterity requirements of feats. -Intellectual Expertise: The fighter may choose to ignore the intelligence requirements of feats. -Wise Expertise: The fighter may choose to ignore the wisdom requirements of feats. Adamant Resolve: At 4th level as an immediate action a fighter may reduce his base attack bonus by up to one half and gain a bonus equal to the sacrificed amount on their will save, this effect last until the end of their next turn. Combat Specialty: At 5th level the fighter may choose one discipline to focus in and gains several benefits from doing so. -Powerful Specialty: Requires one feat thats effects a special attack that is modified by size(Tripping,Grappling,Bullrushing etc).The unique training, experiences, and abilities of a fighter lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a fighter is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the fighter is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A fighter is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. (Note: they don't get to wield larger size weapons) -Ranged Specialty: Requires Pointblank Shot. The fighter may use ranged weapons while being threatened and not provoke attacks of opportunity, additionally they gain their bonus from PBS at a range of 60ft. -Finesse Specialty: Requires Weapon Finesse and Dodge. Use dexterity instead of strength for bonus damage with finesse weapons, in addition their dodge bonus applies to all foes within 60ft. -Defensive Specialty: Requires Combat Expertise and Combat Reflexes. Gain an additional attack of opportunity per round per point used for Combat Expertise, in addition for every two points of attack bonus spent in Combat Expertise gain an additional +1 AC bonus. -Shield Specialty: Shield Specialization and Shield Bash. Whenever the fighter uses a shield and any other weapon they can apply all feats that would normally be transferable with Weapons Training to the shield and the other weapon, in addition they gain their shield bonus to their touch AC. -Weapon Mastery: You gain proficiency with all weapons and any transferable feats through Weapons Training is automatically applied to any weapon you wield, in addition you gain Quick Draw as a bonus feat. -General Specialty: No Requirements. Gain an additional bonus feat, in addition you gain an additional bonus feat at 10th, 15th and 20th level. Disrupting Attack: A Fighter of 6th level may delay his action in one round without compromising his Initiative in the next round. In addition, Whenever a fighter declares that they are readying an action they may use this ability in place of the normal specific readied action. As part of this action a fighter can take a 5ft step and make a single attack action(Note: This does grant the use of a 5ft step even if you've already moved that round). If you attempt a disarm or sunder you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. Mettle: At 7th level a fighter can resist magical or unusual attacks. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save(such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), they instead completely negate the effect. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle. Combat Parry: At 9th level as an immediate action the fighter gains the ability to counter enemy attacks with their own. As part of this immediate action the fighter makes an opposed attack roll, if this attack succeeds the fighter thwarts a single enemy attack, if it fails the enemy's attack is resolved as normal. Weapon Master: At 10th level fighter is a master of their weapons and can manipulate and utilize weapons in ways few others can. With this ability a fighter can change the damage type of his weapon to slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning. This affect activates automatically against corresponding damage reduction. In addition the fighter adds +1 to their attack and damage roles. Extended Reach: At 11th level the fighter has learned to master the area around them. A fighter gains 5ft to their reach. Combat Form: At 14th level a fighter has developed their own unique fighting style. The fighter gains a bonus +1 on attack and damage roles and a +2 bonus on all special attacks opposed checks(such as sunder/trip/bullrush etc) Combat Superiority: At 17th level a fighter’s prowess in combat allows them to take advantage of the slightest errors in an opponent’s guard. As a swift or immediate action the fighter can make an attack at their highest base attack bonus. Combat Mastery: A 20th level fighter can take 2 immediate actions in any round.
IdleAltruism 04-10-08, 03:16 PM	bump :(
NMX112 04-12-08, 01:39 AM	Well, here's another fighter fix that doesn't fix the true problem. Fighters must be allowed to polymorph/shapechange!!!1!one1! Anyway all joking aside I think this is an interesting fix, although regular fighter class can pretty much achieve the desired effect with feats. Granted it definitely allows the remaining feats to go toward more utility feats such as trip. Just my :twocents: Let the flame wars begin!
tenguroEd 04-12-08, 01:48 AM	It's not bad in my opinion. Although why not use the warblade's ability weapon aptitude in place of weapon training? it's essentially the same thing except for it doesn't have that 24 hour limit.
IdleAltruism 04-12-08, 01:53 AM	Posting! :D It's not bad in my opinion. Although why not use the warblade's ability weapon aptitude in place of weapon training? it's essentially the same thing except for it doesn't have that 24 hour limit. Good spot, I don't remember where I copied it from tbh. I've changed it and I will be looking up the warblades ability for more specific wording.
nonsi 04-12-08, 11:11 AM	Click my sig and I believe you'll find everything you're looking for. If you have any questions / remarks / reservations, post them (preferably in my thread) and I'll be happy to reply.
aelryinth 04-12-08, 01:16 PM	QUOTE=IdleAltruism The Fighter Alignment: Any Class Skills: Balance(Dex), Climb(Str), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Escape Artist(Dex), Gather Information(Cha), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal,Intimidate(Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge(Dungeoneering, Geography, History, Local, Nobility)(Int), Listen(Wis), Ride(Dex), Search(Int), Sense Motive(Wis), Spot(Wis), Swim(Str), Tumble(Dex) Point of order here: Skills available should be approximately 2x skill points, or 8 skills. Knowledge skills are lumped as one. If you want to, say, make 4 skills always available, and then choose 4 more as potential class skills, that gives the Fighter his 'bonus' feel and flexibility. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int modifier Hit Dice: d10 BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities 1. +1 +2 +0 +0 Weapons Training, Bonus Feat 2. +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus Feat 3. +3 +3 +1 +1 Heroic Expertise 4. +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat 5. +5 +4 +1 +1 Combat Specialty 6. +6 +5 +2 +2 Disrupting Attack, Bonus Feat 7. +7 +5 +2 +2 Mettle 8. +8 +6 +2 +2 Adamant Resolve, Bonus Feat 9. +9 +6 +3 +3 10. +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 11. +11 +7 +3 +3 Combat Parry 12. +12 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 13. +13 +8 +4 +4 Combat Form 14. +14 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 15. +15 +9 +5 +5 Weapon Master 16. +16 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 17. +17 +10 +5 +5 Combat Superiority 18. +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 19. +19 +11 +6 +6 Warriors Resilience 20. +20 +12 +6 +6 Combat Mastery, Bonus Feat Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor(Heavy, Medium, and Light) and shields(including tower shields) He should be able to swap tower shields for extreme shields, as a side note. I would highly recommend in your campaign that armor and weapon profs only be available at level 1. Furthermore, don't let mithral ignore prof reqs. Weapons Training (ex): Fighters train obsessively with armor and weapons of all kinds, and learning to use a new weapon is a simple task. By practicing with a weapon he is proficient with for 30 minutes, he can switch any feats specific to a single weapon to a different weapon he is proficient with. He may adjust any number of feats in this way, but he cannot change them in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisites for other feats he possesses. This is very common. I would simply fold it into Weapon Focus, if taken as a Fighter bonus feat. Ergo, you don't need the ability as a class ability if you never take the spec chain. The idea is to drive the spec chain, AND make it apply to multiple weapons. Bonus Feats: At first level, second level, and every even level thereafter the fighter gains a bonus feat. Fighter Bonus Feat. Make it BIG. Make it capital. Make it important! FIghter Bonus Feat should BE something...just like manuvers are. Fighters should get more out of their bonus feats then anyone who takes them as a General Feat. This is a problem with feats, as well as the Fighter. Heroic Expertise: Beginning at 3rd level a fighter may choose one of the following expertises. To apply their expertise the feats in question must be fighter bonus feats. -Dexterous Expertise: The fighter may choose to ignore the dexterity requirements of feats. -Intellectual Expertise: The fighter may choose to ignore the intelligence requirements of feats. -Wise Expertise: The fighter may choose to ignore the wisdom requirements of feats. All of these should just be folded into Master of Feats: The Fighter ignores ability score requirements on any feat he takes as a Fighter Bonus Feat. Combat Specialty: At 5th level the fighter may choose one discipline to focus in and gains several benefits from doing so. -Powerful Specialty: Requires one feat thats effects a special attack that is modified by size(Tripping,Grappling,Bullrushing etc).The unique training, experiences, and abilities of a fighter lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a fighter is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the fighter is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A fighter is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. (Note: they don't get to wield larger size weapons) -Ranged Specialty: Requires Pointblank Shot. The fighter may use ranged weapons while being threatened and not provoke attacks of opportunity, additionally they gain their bonus from PBS at a range of 60ft. -Finesse Specialty: Requires Weapon Finesse and Dodge. Use dexterity instead of strength for bonus damage with finesse weapons, in addition their dodge bonus applies to all foes within 60ft. -Defensive Specialty: Requires Combat Expertise and Combat Reflexes. Gain an additional attack of opportunity per round per point used for Combat Expertise, in addition for every two points of attack bonus spent in Combat Expertise gain an additional +1 AC bonus. -Shield Specialty: Shield Specialization and Shield Bash. Whenever the fighter uses a shield and any other weapon they can apply all feats that would normally be transferable with Weapons Training to the shield and the other weapon, in addition they gain their shield bonus to their touch AC. -Weapon Mastery: You gain proficiency with all weapons and any transferable feats through Weapons Training is automatically applied to any weapon you wield, in addition you gain Quick Draw as a bonus feat. -General Specialty: No Requirements. Gain an additional bonus feat, in addition you gain an additional bonus feat at 10th, 15th and 20th level. I would simply make all of the above extensions of the feats themselves, which gives the Fighter the benefit of them without having to 'spend' class abilities on them. Instead, give them something that can't be duplicated by feats, and let the feats scale simply because they are FIghter Bonus Feats. Disrupting Attack: At 6th level a fighter can hold their action to disrupt their enemies actions. Whenever a fighter declares that they are readying an action they may use this ability in place of the normal specific readied action. As part of this action a fighter can take a 5ft step and make a single attack action(Note: This does grant the use of a 5ft step even if you've already moved that round). If you attempt a disarm or sunder you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can take a 5' step as part of a readied action anyway. Actually, you can do a partial charge. This is a non-ability. Mettle: At 7th level a fighter can resist magical or unusual attacks. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save(such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), they instead completely negate the effect. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle. This is generally only available to classes with a good Will save. Adamant Resolve: At 9th level as an immediate action a fighter may reduce his base attack bonus by up to one half and gain a bonus equal to the sacrificed amount on their will save, this effect last until the end of their next turn. This should be a qualifier for Mettle, not a successor to it. Once they have this, they definitely 'have metal', as it were. I would depart from the normal definition. As worded, once I got it, I don't need any more Fighter levels to use it to maximum extent..a F/9 Barb/11 gets the same benefit as a f/20. Thus, I'd reword it to gain a bonus = their number of Fighter Bonus feats on their will save. This slightly improves it (by +1), and makes continuing Fighter levels important. Combat Parry: At 11th level as an immediate action the fighter gains the ability to counter enemy attacks with their own. As part of this immediate action the fighter makes an opposed attack roll, if this attack succeeds the fighter thwarts a single enemy attack, if it fails the enemy's attack is resolved as normal. This is nice...it's the Warblade ability to sub an attack roll for AC. Note this is possibly abusable with AC tanking uber charger builds, so you might want to be careful. The best use of it is a higher Touch AC. Combat Form: At 13th level a fighter has developed their own unique fighting style. The fighter gains a bonus +1 on attack and damage roles and a +2 bonus on all special attacks opposed checks(such as sunder/trip/bullrush etc) Mmmm. I'd be just defaulting up the spec tree ladder by levels. As a guideline, look at the default Int-based stuff the Warblade gets, and consider something based on Fighter Bonus Feats. Weapon Master: At 15th level fighter is a master of their weapons and can manipulate and utilize weapons in ways few others can. With this ability a fighter can change the damage type of his weapon to slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning. This affect activates automatically against corresponding damage reduction. In addition the fighter adds +1 to their attack and damage roles. Add this to one of the Spec tree abilities. Perhaps Greater Weapon Spec. Combat Superiority: At 17th level a fighter’s prowess in combat allows them to take advantage of the slightest errors in an opponent’s guard. As a swift or immediate action the fighter can make an attack at their highest base attack bonus. This bonus does not stack with what? Note that this is stronger then two attacks as a standard action, and even then flurry, since it has no penalty. heck, an extra free attack is probably better then Weapon Supremacy. Warriors Resilience: At 19th level a fighter gains the ability to shrug off damage that would normally be fatal. By taking an immediate action a fighter can make a fortitude save to ignore damage that would normally take them below zero hitpoints. The DC of this save is equal to the amount of negative hitpoints the fighter would have from the attack. If the save is successful the fighter ignores the damage. Ah, from the crusader class. Hmm. A very powerful high level ability. I would halve the damage, down to a minimum of 1. He shouldn't get away scott free from being stupid. Combat Mastery: A 20th level fighter can take 2 immediate actions in any round. This is really strong. A more correct wording would be 'the first immediate action in a round the fighter takes does not count towards his limit of one immediate action per round.' or 'one immediate action per round is treated as a free action instead.' I would also say that, given some of the abilities above, it might be overpowered. You now get two parries a round, or two extra attacks at full BAB, as you like. That's a very strong capstone. I would perhaps downtone it. Take your attack as an immediate action, devolve it down to a swift action, above, and then use this capstone to make it an immediate action. You could still potentially get two attacks off in one turn, but it would shaft your defense, and brings tactics back into the game. It gives you a possible 'finishing blow' out of turn order, if you care to spend it. Note that the real heart of the FIghter's problem is not with the class, but with the feats. To really revise the FIghter, you need to look at feats, and at Fighter Bonus Feats being something as important as Initiator Level and Spellcaster Level. ==Aelryinth
aelryinth 04-12-08, 01:27 PM	If you would like some advice on things to look at, check out the Fighter vs Warblade post on Regdar's that I have linked in my signature. It should give you some good ideas on the problems to focus on. I don't preach any specific builds, as we all want different things for our Fighters...I just give you some very simple problems the Fighter has been saddled with, and alternative ways to address them. ===Aelryinth
IdleAltruism 04-12-08, 03:44 PM	I would simply make all of the above extensions of the feats themselves, which gives the Fighter the benefit of them without having to 'spend' class abilities on them. Instead, give them something that can't be duplicated by feats, and let the feats scale simply because they are FIghter Bonus Feats. As I said in my original post, I don't really have the time to do an overhaul on feats. I'm really just trying to get the fighter to a point that they can do most of(if not all) the basic Archetypes of the fighter class with proficiency and effectiveness. All of the other classes will follow suit(although the ToB/ToM and similar books might not make the cut because of time and the massive amount of variables the alternative systems bring, spells are bad enough). You can take a 5' step as part of a readied action anyway. Actually, you can do a partial charge. This is a non-ability. Actually this provides several benefits. Potentially with this you could move up to a foe(lets say a caster) ready an action, take a 5ft step(which you normally couldn't do because you moved) and interrupt their spell. It adds some small benefits like the opponent you used it against can't take AoO if you don't have the improved sunder/disarm feats. I also like to think it would be used defensively with disarm/sunder attempts against pesky foes that attack your backline.It also allows them to swap this action instead of any stated action they wished to take. I think that could be one of the main uses for it though(always having two options for readied actions can be nice) This is generally only available to classes with a good Will save. This should be a qualifier for Mettle, not a successor to it. Once they have this, they definitely 'have metal', as it were. I would depart from the normal definition. As worded, once I got it, I don't need any more Fighter levels to use it to maximum extent..a F/9 Barb/11 gets the same benefit as a f/20. Thus, I'd reword it to gain a bonus = their number of Fighter Bonus feats on their will save. This slightly improves it (by +1), and makes continuing Fighter levels important. Would swapping the levels of the abilities work? I wanted to move adamant resolve up, but I wasn't sure what level. Or should I move both of them up? This bonus does not stack with what? Note that this is stronger then two attacks as a standard action, and even then flurry, since it has no penalty. heck, an extra free attack is probably better then Weapon Supremacy. I feel that an average fighter should get something extra on a charge/standard action(There will be no way shape or form to get pounce). I'm thinking about making it an immediate action only, making it more of a defensive ability(although I would like to add more of these types of abilities to give more options, I think I'll look at maneuvers for some inspiration) I'm now thinking about an ability for standard action attacks and charging. I've thought of similar abilities for the Rogue/Monk/Paladin(I'm thinking an Auto-Sneak attack as a standard action , a sort of 1 hit blows up a brick wall type of punch for the monk, and a standard action smite for the paladin). Maybe some kind of standard for all martial classes to have a standard action attack maneuver? Ah, from the crusader class. Hmm. A very powerful high level ability. I would halve the damage, down to a minimum of 1. He shouldn't get away scott free from being stupid. I'm just not sure what to do with this ability, I don't actually like it personally. I want some more defensive abilities, but I'm kind of stuck atm. [I]This is really strong. A more correct wording would be 'the first immediate action in a round the fighter takes does not count towards his limit of one immediate action per round.' or 'one immediate action per round is treated as a free action instead.' I would also say that, given some of the abilities above, it might be overpowered. You now get two parries a round, or two extra attacks at full BAB, as you like. Maybe add that the same immediate action can't be used more then once? I want some more options for this capstone, I kind of want it to do more. Maybe taking two swift actions instead and adding more swift action abilities would be more balanced? Keep the defensive abilities at a 1/round and the offensive ones separate,or maybe allow the use of swift actions even if you used an immediate one?. In your opinion does this version of the fighter make it easier to make effective builds for fighters? Would it be to powerful in a standard game? If so how much? What do you like/not like most about the class? What do you feel should be added/taken out to make it better. These questions are for everyone who will take the time to answer them. Thank you all for your responses, keep them coming :D.
NMX112 04-12-08, 04:25 PM	Click my sig and I believe you'll find everything you're looking for. If you have any questions / remarks / reservations, post them (preferably in my thread) and I'll be happy to reply. ..Wait a tick! do I smell an attempted thread hijack?
IdleAltruism 04-12-08, 04:59 PM	Click my sig and I believe you'll find everything you're looking for. If you have any questions / remarks / reservations, post them (preferably in my thread) and I'll be happy to reply. Thx for the link, but ithat's really not what I'm looking for. I don't believe your class will fit very well with the concepts I'm trying to achieve. I find them to be a bit to static for my goals, I want options, lots and lots of options. I don't want a fighter bonus feat every level(it will lead to the breaking of the class). I'm looking for class abilities right now that will be somewhat unique to the fighter. I like the idea of using the number of fighter bonus feats as a guideline for something, but what I'm not sure yet. I'm thinking about adding some types of strike and full attack action specialties. Instead of just full attacking or standard action attacks allow them something unique to fighters(maybe to all martial classes).
Leress 04-12-08, 06:10 PM	Thx for the link, but ithat's really not what I'm looking for. I don't believe your class will fit very well with the concepts I'm trying to achieve. I find them to be a bit to static for my goals, I want options, lots and lots of options. I don't want a fighter bonus feat every level(it will lead to the breaking of the class). That's pretty odd to say since that is pretty much what this class has, and it doesn't look broken in the least. All it really does it moves around small bonus all over the place, and makes having some feats slightly better. I'm looking for class abilities right now that will be somewhat unique to the fighter. I like the idea of using the number of fighter bonus feats as a guideline for something, but what I'm not sure yet. Many feats can be combined together to make a good ability. I'm thinking about adding some types of strike and full attack action specialties. Instead of just full attacking or standard action attacks allow them something unique to fighters(maybe to all martial classes). okay. Here is the fighter I use... (scroll down) http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=33294 It may have some idea you could use.
IdleAltruism 04-12-08, 08:45 PM	http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=33294 It may have some idea you could use. Ty for the link, it was very helpful. I've moved some things around and tweaked disrupting attack. I'm going to remove Warriors resilience. I also added the extend reach ability, something I completely forgot about. I am thinking about 5 different types of abilities I want to add:3-5 of the strikes/Full Attack special actions I mentioned earlier, 1-3 Floating feats(feat slots that are interchangeable), 4-6(Including the ones already there)Defensive abilities(in general AC/Save related), 2-3 Buffing/DeBuffing/Disabling abilities, and 1-2 Ally benefiting abilities. I want the strike/full attack actions to enhance their ability to fight at any time. I think at least 1-2 will be modeled after ToB strikes, possibly with extra damage or DR ignoring options(Basically giving them some options with standard actions). I'm not exactly sure what to do with the full attack action versions. Maybe an ability or two of Full round actions that do X, and an ability that adds some sort of bonus for full attacking. For the floating feats I'm not exactly sure how I want to limit them. Possibly cost them a swift action to gain a feat for a round? For the defensive abilities I want to add something for AC, maybe something like an improved Full Defense action, and possibly an ability that can affect/help/defend allies. For the buffing/debuffing/disabling I want to add some variety to the fighters offensive abilities. Adding something like stunning/giving penalties/possibly adding bonuses to allies of some type. For the ally benefiting abilities I kind of want a passive ability, not sure what yet. Maybe a flanking bonus/defensive bonus for adjacent allies. If anyone has any ideas please feel free to share :D .
JaronK 04-12-08, 08:49 PM	My honest feeling is that the Warblade is basically the Fighter fix, and it worked very well (unless you want to be an archer), so it's a good idea to look to that with any homebrew fixes. JaronK
IdleAltruism 04-12-08, 11:59 PM	My honest feeling is that the Warblade is basically the Fighter fix, and it worked very well (unless you want to be an archer), so it's a good idea to look to that with any homebrew fixes. JaronK I like the warblade on some parts, but I don't like the maneuver system. I like the ToB's supernatural warrior type of feel, but I don't think of it as a fix. To me its like a rogue vs a swordsage. They can accomplish similar things, but they feel different even when built the same. I'm not just trying to fix fighters, personally I think they are manageable in an average game. I'm redoing alot of the base classes. In the upcoming game I doubt the ToB/ToM and similar books will be used(to start psionics probably won't be either). If I was just trying to remake the fighter by itself for standard D&D then I probably would use a warblade. Although I am taking inspiration from the ToB, a lot of maneuvers will be implemented and modified in the upcoming classes.
squidyak 04-13-08, 11:58 AM	Overall I like it. I especially like the addition of mettle and heroic expertise. Not a big fan of the combat specialties, those just seem like feats to me.
Bringer of autumn 04-13-08, 03:35 PM	Maybe a quick fix is just adding special abilities to fighters? Like the Rogue has.
aelryinth 04-13-08, 05:15 PM	Don't worry about the 'level' of abilities. Pounce used to be found only at Epic levels. Now, you can get it atlevel 1 barbarian. So, if you want Adamant Resolve at level 5, stick it at level 5, and give them Mettle at 7. Neither ability is overpowered, especially Mettle, and Resolve scales...low power at low levels, high power at high levels, where it needs to be. I will note that a feat every level for a fighter is FAR from broken. A Warblade, by the time he is done at level 20, has passed through about 42 feat-equivalents. The fighter, getting a mere 20, is NOT going to be broken. A simple mechanic to give the fighter is Sneak Attack dice, which are basically doing extra damage for tactical thinking. Sure, it steps on the toes of the rogue...but the rogue can grab feats, no reason the fighter shouldn't be able to grab sneak attack dmg. The Fighter tends to be very balanced on offense with the spec tree, so giving him the spec tree for free is a good thing to do...and frees up like 6 feats. Likewise, he should have weapon aptitude for swapping around his supremacy...the abiltiy didn't exist at the time the class was created, and is anything but overpowered. Really, the difference between the fighter and the warblade is manuvers tend to grant variable bonuses and damage, and feats grant fairly static bonuses and damage. A warblade can be built and feel just like a fighter, if that's the way you play them...they just get to do more on top of it then a fighter gets to do. ===Aelryinth
IdleAltruism 04-14-08, 07:37 PM	I'm thinking about adding some of these combat maneuvers(or something similar to them). I don't have the time today, but I'll work on them sometime later int he week. These maneuvers will probably be standard action attacks/fullround action attacks. I want to add a strike that gives a penalty to enemy attack. Possibly scaling with levels, and possibly being able to sub out combat bonuses to AC to give a penalty to that foes to hit. I was thinking about after level 6 adding a strike that gives a bonus on damage(probably in d6s). I'm not sure how I should scale it, possibly 1d6 per 2 levels? Something to make a standard action attack worthwhile later on, or at least more potent. I was looking at the feat Lunging attack from the PHB2 and I was thinking about making a standard action version of it. I'm not a huge fan of the feat, and at first glance it looks underpowered. Does anyone have any opinions about it? I'm also trying to make up an improved version of taking full defense action, something that will help allies. Not sure how I'm going to go about this, maybe add a set or scaling bonus to adjacent allies AC and keep threatening squares(possibly threaten squares that adjacent allies do as well?). Any ideas for different types of maneuvers for standard actions/full round actions?
nonsi 04-15-08, 04:32 PM	IdleAltruism, I believe I've already provided for everything you need: >> I'm really just trying to get the fighter to a point that they can do most of >> (if not all) the basic Archetypes of the fighter class with proficiency and effectiveness. A good combatant should be able to do a lot of things well, but nobody does everything well. >> Actually this provides several benefits. Potentially with this you could >> move up to a foe (lets say a caster) ready an action, take a 5ft step >> (which you normally couldn't do because you moved) and interrupt their spell. -- >> I've thought of similar abilities for the Rogue/Monk/Paladin . . . Maybe >> some kind of standard >> for all martial classes to have a standard action attack maneuver? -- >> Maybe taking two swift actions instead and adding more swift action >> abilities would be more >> balanced? Keep the defensive abilities at a 1/round and the offensive >> ones separate,or maybe >> allow the use of swift actions even if you used an immediate one? -- >> Instead of just full attacking or standard action attacks allow them >> something unique to fighters >> (maybe to all martial classes). Check out my revised rules: "actions redefinitions" and "multiple attacks and movement" to simplify things without having to break your head about creating multiple class features. "Adamant Resolve"... My "Combat Resolve" is more appropriate thematically, because it emphasizes in-battle resolve and provides an overall better protection. Add "Combat Focus" plus "Combat Stability" plus "Combat Vigor" and you'll gain all the benefits you're talking about and much more - and it will also remind you that even with a very large array of feats you quickly find it difficult to decide where to invest them. >> I want some more defensive abilities, but I'm kind of stuck atm. Check out "Shields’ AC Adjustments" and "Shield Another" options. >> I want some more options for this capstone I find capstone abilities overrated. Afterall, life don't end at level 20. >> Thx for the link, but ithat's really not what I'm looking for. >> don't believe your class will fit very well with the concepts I'm trying to >> achieve. >> I find them to be a bit to static for my goals, I want options, lots and lots of options. With 8 added class features plus a major skill boost plus 3 extra feats, you could virtually realize any warrior archetype you can dream of to the fullest (especially if you allow swapping Evasion with Mettle). That's the very definition of "lots and lots of options". >> I don't want a fighter bonus feat every level(it will lead to the breaking of the class). To this day, I never saw a pure-Fighter being broken with feats. and it's not every level, just 3 extra - spread on 20 levels. >> I'm thinking about adding some types of strike and full attack action specialties I believe here's where "Counter Attack", "Find the Crack" and "Ripost" will come to the rescue. >> I am thinking about 5 different types of abilities I want to add >> 3-5 of the strikes/Full Attack covered >> 1-3 Floating feats(feat slots that are interchangeable), too few - would drastically reduce build flexibility >> 4-6(Including the ones already there)Defensive abilities(in general AC/Save related), again, "Shields’ AC Adjustments" and "Shield Another" options. >> 2-3 Buffing/DeBuffing/Disabling abilities >> 1-2 Ally benefiting abilities. ditto . . . plus [multiple attacks and movement] According to the way you describe things, I believe all you'll be doing is make all Fighters very similar to one another. A Juggernaut cares very little for defending others. An unfettered type gains nothing from heavy armor. Archer does nothing for Buffing/DeBuffing (except for "Distracting Shot" ACF). etc. >> an ability that adds some sort of bonus for full attacking. I'll incorporate something on this matter into "Find the Crack" in the next few days. >> Lunging attack Redundant, if you adopt "multiple attacks and movement".
IdleAltruism 04-15-08, 06:59 PM	A good combatant should be able to do a lot of things well, but nobody does everything well. Thats not what I meant. There are several Archetypes the fighter should be able to cover but can't(TWF, Sword and board, Defender) What I'm trying to make those options more attractive to pure fighters(my goal is to stay away from multi-classing) Check out my revised rules: "actions redefinitions" and "multiple attacks and movement" to simplify things without having to break your head about creating multiple class features. I can create class features that can serve my purpose without much of a problem, but atm I'm bogged down with alot of school work. I don't have much time to work on them. Class features for me are easier to balance, I know the ins and outs of this system and can work around that. Also these classes are based on a very different campaign setting, with slightly different challenges(monsters are more unique). So I'm designing the classes around that. My "Combat Resolve" is more appropriate thematically, because it emphasizes in-battle resolve and provides an overall better protection. Add "Combat Focus" plus "Combat Stability" plus "Combat Vigor" and you'll gain all the benefits you're talking about and much more - and it will also remind you that even with a very large array of feats you quickly find it difficult to decide where to invest them. Imo it isn't. I like the adamant resolve because it takes up an immediate action(which I want my defensive abilities tied to). The +4 on will saves comes way to early and he passes up classes with good will saves with it(essentially giving him a partially good save, which I'm not personally a fan of. Just give them a good will if you want it that way. Kind of like the swashbucklers grace, whats the point(other then insane reflexes on rogues with a feat). Adamant resolve provides a choice, which I find makes the classes more enjoyable to play(more tactically inclined). Check out "Shields’ AC Adjustments" and "Shield Another" options. This is sorta what I'm after, although if I decide to use something like this I'll modify it. I find capstone abilities overrated. Afterall, life don't end at level 20. Yes, but they can lead to interesting epic feats and abilities :D With 8 added class features plus a major skill boost plus 3 extra feats, you could virtually realize any warrior archetype you can dream of to the fullest (especially if you allow swapping Evasion with Mettle). That's the very definition of "lots and lots of options". One of the bigger problems I have with your class remake some of its abilities rely on things it may or may not have. A good reflex for evasion(evasion is to a lesser extent, but a way to modify their reflex would be handy) and spot on find the crack. Thematically no hero can be caught flat-footed and they always dodge the nasty fireball, but I think D&D gives separate classes those abilities for a reason. Although some abilities are better than others because of DMing style ,and because of this I understand why having all of them seems like an attractive option, I still believe that adding Uncanny Dodge/Evasion is stepping on the toes of other classes(make them spend a feat for it, they're fighters its what they do :D ). I want the classes abilities to be more unique and general than Uncanny dodge(imo thats a feat if I ever heard one) To this day, I never saw a pure-Fighter being broken with feats. and it's not every level, just 3 extra - spread on 20 levels. I like the amount of feats the fighters get currently(and one of the combat specialities allows for more if you really need them). I think it will suit my purpose, although I do want the addition of a floater feat or two. With the combination of maneuvers/special abilities I think it will find a nice balance. I believe here's where "Counter Attack", "Find the Crack" and "Ripost" will come to the rescue. Actually I don't like any of those, and I believe feats/certain builds can meet all of those functions. Counter attack is the most interesting of the 3, but I don't really like it functionally. How does it play with your modified actions? Find the Crack is based on spot, I don't want any class abilities to be based on skills, special uses of skills sometimes, but not solely on them(thats PrC territory), something I plan on remedying with the bard. Look at the Truename for an extreme example. Also skills are to easy to abuse, and I believe there is a similar rogueish feat that does something similar. According to the way you describe things, I believe all you'll be doing is make all Fighters very similar to one another. A Juggernaut cares very little for defending others. An unfettered type gains nothing from heavy armor. Archer does nothing for Buffing/DeBuffing (except for "Distracting Shot" ACF). etc. Not necessarily. I just want to change some uses for standard actions to make them more useful later on, so a fighter doesn't need to full attack all the time to be very effective(also give some variety). The abilities should be general enough for every fighter to use and in many cases should improve various builds like Heavy armored warriors and defender types. Like I said before, general usefulness is what I'm after. I'll incorporate something on this matter into "Find the Crack" in the next few days. As I said before I don't personally like this ability. I see lots of abuse(mostly power attack and chargers, just like wraith strike). Redundant, if you adopt "multiple attacks and movement". I like the idea of the original rules better for more tactical movement and uses of standard actions/move actions/full-round actions. I think with some of my class features these could be really fun to use. Although I love the full attack on the move option you have and I'm going to steal it ;)