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| Edymnion09-29-05, 03:00 PM | Okay, this is more or less finish. It still needs some playtesting though, so if anybody wants to give it a spin and tell me how it works for them, I'd appreciate the input. BAB: Medium (cleric) Saves: Will Good, Fort/Save Poor Hitdice: d6 Skillpoints: 4 Lvl Special 1 Tame Monster, Call/Recall Monster 2 Craft Soul Crystal (Least), Advance Monster (Least) 3 Special Ability (Least), Monster Tongue 4 Monster Knowledge 5 Double Team 6 Special Ability (Least) 7 Craft Soul Crystal (Lesser) 8 Advance Monster (Lesser) 9 Special Ability (Lesser) 10 Quick Call/Recall, Store Soul Crystal 11 12 Special Ability (Lesser) 13 Craft Soul Crystal (Greater) 14 Transfer Control 15 Special Ability (Greater) 16 17 Craft Soul Crystal (Master) 18 Special Ability (Greater) 19 20 Advance Monster (Greater) Class Skills: Survival, Handle Animal, Preform, Craft, Profession, Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Arcana), Climb, Jump, Use Rope, ??? Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: The Monster Tamer is proficient in Light Armor, Shields (but not Tower Shields), Simple Weapons, and any weapon that normally deals non-lethal damage (such as a sap). Special: The Monster Tamer may use any bludgeoning weapon with which they are proficient in to deal non-lethal damage instead of lethal without suffering the standard -4 penalty. Tame Monster (Ex): The tamer is capable of controlling Monsters he has caught with a Soul Crystal (see Craft Soul Crystal below). A Monster, in context to a Monster Tamer, is any creature of a specified type (see below) that advances primarily by hitdice, and not character class. In situations where a creature advances by either hitdice or character class, their status as a Monster is left up to the DM. Initially, the tamer can only catch Animals and Magical Beasts, although he may expand this list via special abilities (see Special Abilities below). Once captured, a Monster is considered to be Controlled if it's CR is less than the tamer's Control Level. The Tamer's Control Level is defined as being their class level in Monster Tamer, plus any potential modifiers (see Special Abilities below). A Tamer can Control up to his Charisma modifier in Monsters at any given time. A Controled Monster acts as if it is Friendly towards the Tamer, and is willing to fight on their behalf. An uncontrolled Monster (either because it's CR is too high, or the Tamer has already captured his allotted limit of Monsters) is indifferant towards their Tamer, and generally will ignore any commands given to it, but will not become actively hostile towards it's Tamer or other creatures unless specifically provoked. Once captured, a Monster becomes an extension of it's Tamer. Like a wizard's familiar, the Monster is no longer considered to be it's own individual creature. As such, the Monster cannot become a cohort, animal companion, familiar, or anything else resembling that kind of relationship, neither to the Tamer nor to other characters. A Monster Tamer is capable of controlling only one Monster at any given time (see Double Team below for the exceptions). Should the Tamer attempt to call a second or third Monster into service while the first is still present, it is considered to be uncontrolled, and will generally do as it sees fit, reguardless of it's Tamer's desires. Special: Releasing Monsters A tamer may, at any time, release a Monster from their control. Doing so entails a 10 minute ritual in which the Tamer calls the Monster, then willfully destroys the crystal that contained it. Doing so releases the Monster from the Tamer's control, although it retains any abilities it gained while in service (such as hitdice, templates, etc). Depending on how the Monster was treated, it may remain a loyal friend to the Tamer, a despised enemy, or may even attack the Tamer the instant it is released, at the DM's discretion. Call/Recall Monster (Su): The Monster Tamer can, at his discretion, call a Monster out of it's Soul Crystal, or return an already summoned one to it's crystal as a Standard Action. A called Monster has the same initiative as it's Tamer. Craft Soul Crystal (Ex): Starting at second level, the Monster Tamer gains the ability to craft his own Soul Crystal, which costs 250 gp and 10 xp to craft. As a standard action, a Tamer can fire a 30' ray from the crystal as a ranged touch attack which deals 1d4 points of non-lethal damage, plus 1 for every 4 Control Levels the Tamer posesses (see Tame Monster). If the target Monster is knocked unconcious by this attack (it cannot already be unconcious), it is physically absorbed by the Soul Crystal and held in stasis until called. Once inside a Soul Crystal, all lethal damage done to the Monster converts to non-lethal damage, which heals at the normal rate. Once a Monster has been caught within a Soul Crystal, the crystal permanently attunes itself to that specific creature and may never again be used to catch another, and its ray ceases to function. Should a Soul Crystal containing a Monster be destroyed, the Monster within is immediantly slain, and it's body forever lost. A Soul Crystal has a hardness of 5, and 10 hitpoints. Special: Willfully giving a filled Soul Crystal to another Monster Tamer also transfers Control of the Monster to that Tamer. If they cannot accept another Controlled Monster at that time, the transferred Monster becomes uncontrolled until the new Tamer can take control of it normally. Advance Monster, Least (Ex): By spending a full 8 hours of training, the Tamer may advance the hitdice of his monster by one step (see Monster Manual for rules on advancing monsters by hitdice). Doing so requires a Handle Animal check of DC 15 + (CR of the advanced Monster). If the check fails, or the training is interrupted, the training is inneffective and nothing happens. If it succeeds, the Monster advances one hitdice (including any potential size change). If advancing the Monster means it would gain new skillpoints or feats, they are chosen by the Tamer. This could cause the Monster to be uncontrolled if it raises the CR above the Tamer's Control Level. A Monster may not be advanced in this fashion beyond their listed limits for hitdice advancement. Special Ability, Least (Ex): As the Monster Tamer advances in levels, they naturally begin to broaden their range of abilities, and hone the abilities they already have. When gaining a Least Special Ability, they choose one of the following Special Abilities: Tame Abberration: With this ability, the Tamer may now capture and tame Monsters of the Abberration type. Tame Plant: With this ability, the Tamer may now capture and tame Monsters of the Plant type. Tame Ooze: With this ability, the Tamer may now capture and tame Monsters of the Ooze type. Tame Vermin: With this ability, the Tamer may now capture and tame Monsters of the Vermin type. Subtype Specialization: The Tamer chooses a creature subtype to specialize in (such as Fire, Cold, Air, etc). Due to their extensive familiarity with that subtype, the Tamer gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when deailing with them. He also gains a +2 bonus to the nonlethal damage dealt by his Soul Crystal rays against Monsters of that subtype. Increased Capacity: You gain the ability to Control more Monsters than your standard allotment. You may Control one additional Monster than normal. This Special Ability may be taken multiple times, each time granting another Monster Controlled. Crystal Mastery I: You are particularly skilled in using Soul Crystals. You deal an extra 1d4 points of nonlethal damage with all crystal ray attacks. Monster Tongue (Su): At third level, the Tamer gains an innate understanding of Monster communication. When dealing with a Monster type he is capable of capturing, the Tamer is considered to be under the effects of the Tongues spell. He can communicate with the Monster reguardless of having a shared language or not, and the monster is capable of understanding him, reguardless of whether or not the monster would normally be capable of doing so. Monster Knowledge(Ex): At fourth level, the Monster Tamer gains a unique insight into Monsters of all types. He can now identify monsters, their strengths, and their weaknesses by making either a Knowledge (Arcana) or Survival check, as if it were the appropriate skill for the task. Example, identifying undead is typically a Knowledge (Religion) check, but a 4th level Monster Tamer could identify it with a Knowledge Arcana or Survival check. Double Team (Ex): A Tamer can normally only use one Monster at a time in combat. At 5th level, however, he gains the ability to use two at once, under the condition that both monsters' CR are two or more below the Tamer's Control Level. Example, a 5th level Monster Tamer could send out a single CR 4 creature to fight for him, or a pair of CR 3 creatures, but not a CR 1 and a CR 4 monster. Craft Soul Crystal, Lesser (Ex): As Craft Soul Crystal, Least, but Lesser Soul Crystals deal 1d6 + 1 per 4 Control Levels nonlethal damage to target creatures, and cost 1,000 gp and 40 xp to create. Advance Monster, Lesser (Su): At 8th level and above, the Tamer may use his Advance Monster ability to add a template of his choice to any monster he controls. The DC for this is DC 20 + the templated creature's CR. This could cause the Monster to be uncontrolled if it raises the CR above the Tamer's Control Level. If a Monster's type changes to something the Tamer is not able to Control due to a template, the Monster is still considered to be Controlled, and the Tamer may still use Lesser Advance Monster to increase it's hitdice, but he may not use Greater Advance Monster until he is again able to tame it's type. Example, a Tamer that does not yet have Tame Dragon could apply the Half-Dragon template to a griffon via Greater Advance Monster, and it would still obey him. He could still advance it by hitdice, but he could not add more templates until he takes Tame Dragon. Special: At the DM's discretion, the Tamer can use Greater Advance Monster to advance the Monster to a differant, but similar creature of greater power. Example: advancing a Fiendish Horse into a Lesser Nightmare into a full fledged Nightmare, advancing a Dragon from Juvenile to Adult, or advancing a Red Slaad into a Green Slaad. Special Ability, Lesser (Ex): As Special Ability, Least. In addition, the Tamer may also choose from the following abilities. Tame Construct: The Tamer gains the ability to capture and control Monsters of the Construct type. Special Note: The Soul Crystal deals lethal damage to Constructs. If the Construct would normally be brought to 0 hp and destroyed by the crystal's ray, it is instead captured. It's hp regenerate at the rate a normal creature would heal non-lethal damage. Tame Fey: The Tamer gains the ability to capture and control Monsters of the Fey type. Tame Undead: The Tamer gains the ability to capture and control Monsters of the Undead type. Special Note: Mindless Undead count as being 1 CR lower than their actual CR for determining if they are Controllable or not. Also, crystal rays do lethal damage to Undead. If the Undead would normally be brought to 0 hp and destroyed by the crystal's ray, it is instead captured. It's hp regenerate at the rate a normal creature would heal non-lethal damage. Tame Elemental: The Tamer gains the ability to capture and control Monsters of the Elemental type. Type Specialization: As Subtype Specialization, but applies to any creature of the appropriate type. These bonuses stack with Subtype Specialization. Signature Monster: Choose a specific base creature of a type you are already specialized in (such as a Griffon if you have Magical Beast Specialization). Your Control Level is counted as being 1 higher than normal for this specific creature. You still gain this bonus even if you add a template that changes it's type (although you may lose your type specialization bonuses). Crystal Mastery II: You are particularly skilled at using Soul Crystals. You may take this ability to increase the threat range of your crystal ray attacks by one step. Example: Soul Crystal rays normally crit 20/x2. With this ability, you now crit on a 19-20/x2. This effect does not stack with any other feat or ability that would increase a ray's threat range. This effect does not stack with itself. Crystal Mastery III: You are particularly skilled at using Soul Crystals. You may take this ability to increase the critical multiplier of your Soul Crystal ray by 1 step. Example: Soul Crystal rays normally crit x2. With this ability, your rays now crit x3. This effect does not stack with any other feat or ability that would increase a ray's critical multiplier. This effect does not stack with itself. Quick Call/Recall Monster (Su): Calling or Recalling a Monster is now a Free Action. Store Monster (Su): The Tamer may now, as a full round action, store or retrieve a Soul Crystal they Control in/from a pocket of extra-dimensional space. While stored, the crystals remain safe from harm. Only the Monster Tamer that originally stored them may retrieve said crystals. Craft Soul Crystal, Greater (Ex): As before, but Greater Soul Crystals deal 1d10 non-lethal damage and cost 5,000 gp and 200 xp to create. Transfer Control: Starting at 14th level, the Tamer gains the ability to switch which Monsters he counts as Controlled. Example, a Tamer is at his maximum of 4 controlled monsters, and captures a 5th. The Tamer may, instead of releasing a previous monster, shift his Control from an older Monster over to the new one. The old Monster is now uncontrolled, and the new is considered to be Controlled. Trasnferring Control requires 10 minutes of unbroken concentration as the Tamer mentally unbinds himself from the previous Monster. Special Ability, Greater (Ex): As before, with the following abilities added to the list: Tame Outsider: With this ability, the Tamer may now capture and tame Monsters of the Outsider type. Tame Dragon: With this ability, the Tamer may now capture and tame Monsters of the Dragon type. Special Note: Dragons are notoriously hard to control. Treat their CR as being 3 higher than normal when determining their controllability. Subtype Mastery: The Tamer chooses a subtype they are already Specialized in. When attempting to capture such a Monster, all Soul Crystals function as if they were one grade better. Example, a Lesser Soul Crystal would function as a Greater Soul Crystal. The Tamer's Control Level is treated as being one higher than normal in reguards to Monsters of this subtype, and the Tamer may count one additional monster of this subtype as Controlled than they normally could. This stacks with any other Monster Tamer ability that increase Control Level. Type Mastery: As Subtype Mastery, but with the Monster's type, not subtype. Craft Soul Crystal, Master (Ex): The peak of Soul Crystal creation, Greater Soul Crystals automatically capture any Monster who's hitdice are equal to or less than the Tamer's Control Level. If this does not succeed, the Master Soul Crystal still deals 1d20 + 1 nonlethal damage per four controll levels. Master Soul Crystals cost 15,000 gp and 600 xp each to craft. Greater Advance Monster (Ex): A Monster normaly has an inherent limit in how powerful it can become in the form of it's hitdice advancement limit. Upon reaching 20th level, the Tamer has become so masterful in their raising methods that they are capable of circumventing this limit. The Tamer may now make a Handle Animal check at DC 25 + (the monster's new CR) to advance their Monster beyond their normal hitdice limit. Normal advancement rules still apply, however the Monster being advanced no longer increases in size when being advanced beyond it's normal HD limit. Example, a Wolf normally maxxes out at 5 hitdice and size Large. Using Greater Advance Monster, the Tamer could advance it to 20 hitdice, but the wolf would still remain a Large creature. Monster Tamers and the World Starting Equipment: Monster Tamers begin the game with a CR 1/2 Monster of their choice (subject to DM approval), one empty Soul Crystal (Least), and 3d5 x 10 gp worth of equipment. Multiclassing & PrC: Tamers rarely multiclass. When they do, they tend to take levels in classes that improve their ability to lead, to increase the effectiveness of those around them (namely their Monsters), or to heal their monsters, meaning Bard is common, and Monster Tamer/Clerics are not unheard of. Special: Any PrC that grants "+1 Spellcaster Level" or it's equivolent may instead be used to increase the Tamer's Control Level. They do not gain any other benefit from the Monster Tamer class, but their ability to control higher level monsters, and deal extra ray damage does increase. Alignment: Tamers almost inevitably have an extreme alignment. Good Tamers often view their Monsters as pets, allies, or even friends, and go to great efforts to make sure the creatures under their control are as happy with their new life as they can be. Evil Tamers typically see their Monsters as little more than living weapons or tools, made to fight like any other sword until they break, only to replace them when they do. Reguardless of their views on Good and Evil, many Tamers are Lawful in nature. Controlling and caring for a large number of creatures takes a fair measure of forethought and planning, which does not come easily for more chaotic individuals. However, there are quite a few Tamers who take a more relaxed, laid back "take it as it comes" role, and often move about and explore on a moment's whim. Neutrality in Monster Tamers is relatively rare, since the very nature of their chosen profession constantly pulls at them to take sides and make hard decisions. However, of those that do manage to walk the middle road, almost all of them are Neutral in reguards to Law and Chaos. Tamers see the best and the worst that the world has to offer, and it is extremely difficult for them to not take sides. |
| rampant09-29-05, 03:39 PM | a magic item costs 4 gp per xp expended so if you have the gold price divide by four to get the xp cost undead are imunne to non-lethal, so are constructs, and I think elelmental or plants might be as well, undead have a necrotic reserve option from libris mortis check it out does training a dragon cause it to gain age categories, what about size increases for everyone else the crystal rays damage could definetly stand to be a little higher maybe the number of damage dice increse instead of just 1 point evey for levels maybe you should specify that once a crystal is attuned it can no longer use the crystal ray to damage |
| Edymnion09-29-05, 04:45 PM | a magic item costs 4 gp per xp expended so if you have the gold price divide by four to get the xp costItem creation says XP costs 1/25th of the gold cost, actually. undead are imunne to non-lethal, so are constructs, and I think elelmental or plants might be as well,Good points, I need to alter their Tame sections like I did for Constructs. undead have a necrotic reserve option from libris mortis check it outIts generally considered bad form to make a class that uses material from books other than the core books and the one it is printed in. It means you need more and more books just to make the class works, and thats generally not kosher (at least not for me). does training a dragon cause it to gain age categories, what about size increases for everyone elseI knew I forgot something, I'll go and add that. the crystal rays damage could definetly stand to be a little higher maybe the number of damage dice increse instead of just 1 point evey for levelsWell, the idea should be that you use other weapons/monsters to soften the beasty up, and you finish it off with the crystal to capture it, not that you beat it to death with the crystal itself. maybe you should specify that once a crystal is attuned it can no longer use the crystal ray to damageYeah, thats what I ment, but I didn't spell that out. I'll fix it. |
| Save-vs-DM09-29-05, 09:03 PM | This looks pretty darn good. I only really spotted one mistake - under Double Team why can't you control a CR 1 and a CR 3 monster at level 5? Is this a typo? Good work! Cheers, Save vs DM |
| Edymnion09-29-05, 09:06 PM | This looks pretty darn good. I only really spotted one mistake - under Double Team why can't you control a CR 1 and a CR 3 monster at level 5? Is this a typo?Yup, typo. I ment to say a CR 1 and a CR 4 monster. Fixed it, and a few other typos I noticed (mainly spelling). :) Also added what happens when a soul crystal is destroyed, including the hardness and hp of the crystals (its under Craft Soul Crystal). Somebody yell if it looks off. --+Edit+-- Oh, and while I'm at it, what does everyone think of the type breakup? As in, having plantes/oozes/abberrations/vermin be the first types they get access to, while outsiders and dragons are the last? My intention was to group them, more or less, along the lines of each type's "power level", with the overall stronger types becoming available only at later levels. Are there any you would switch around? Making Abberations more powerful by putting them up to Lesser status, dropping Undead down to Least, or anything along those lines? |
| rampant09-29-05, 11:05 PM | low animal vermin plant elemental abberation medium construct undead magical beast High dragon fey just a rough outline feel free to mod also consider what if say a half dragon human would be "tamed" or any other creature that has changed type through a template from an illegal to a legal type |
| Loren Pechtel09-29-05, 11:13 PM | This still suffers from the CR vs ECL problem I mentioned in the Attractive Monsters thread. Also, my inclination would be to say that this class is inherently non-good. |
| Edymnion09-29-05, 11:18 PM | also consider what if say a half dragon human would be "tamed" or any other creature that has changed type through a template from an illegal to a legal typeWouldn't matter, a half-dragon character still advances by character class, not hitdice, so its not a Monster. And it has the clause for "if it does both, its the DM's call if its a monster or not", so I don't think that would be a problem. This still suffers from the CR vs ECL problem I mentioned in the Attractive Monsters thread.Except that its pretty much accepted that ECL does not create balanced characters. There is a reason Unearthed Arcana had a way to buy off LAs. They work only at very low levels, and become a huge hinderance later on.Also, my inclination would be to say that this class is inherently non-good.Why? The only thing I can think of for this would be a Slavery aspect, which is more of a Law/Chaos thing than a Good/Evil. You can respect all living things and still capture monsters and make them fight for you. Otherwise anyone with a familiar or animal companion would have to be non-good. But, I don't want to get into alignment issues with this, not yet anyway. I want to get the class itself workable, then we can turn it into the next Paladin alignment thread. |
| Thrincold09-30-05, 11:45 AM | Dang you Edy you took all the ideas I couldn't seem to put into the class and made it work. Great job, on the 1/2 dragon thing. Technically its a Dragon type so if you can catch dragons you can catch a 1/2 dragon. I guess it only really matters if the template is placed on a race that advances in classes though. Otherwise its great, what I was shooting for but couldn't seem to get to work. I always balance in favor of a little underpowered and didn't want to overbuild my idea. Consider it stolen *yoink* |
| rampant09-30-05, 12:16 PM | as long as you are only taming creatures with standard ability scores or the non-elite array of scores then cr is an accurate measure of power especially if the creatures are advancing by hd now if the elite array were to be placed on a creature that then got tamed the cr would be one higher standard array 11,11,11,10,10,10 non-elite 13,13,13,9,9,9 or 13,12,11,10,9,8 elite 15,14,13,12,10,8 |
| Edymnion09-30-05, 12:19 PM | Technically its a Dragon type so if you can catch dragons you can catch a 1/2 dragon.You can catch something that is a half-dragon, yes. But you still can't catch a humanoid half-dragon, no matter what you do. The very first thing I put in there was the defintion of a Monster:A Monster, in context to a Monster Tamer, is any creature of a specified type (see below) that advances primarily by hitdice, and not character class. In situations where a creature advances by either hitdice or character class, their status as a Monster is left up to the DM.Type is only half of the equation :) Btw, this did bring up an interesting question I've now addressed. If you template a Monster into something you can't control (this came up since you mentioned the half-dragon template, which changes type, and Dragon is one of the last things you learn to tame), I've fixed it so the Monster stays Controlled, and you can still advance it's hitdice, but you can't apply any more templates until you gain Tame Dragon (or whatever it's type is that you can't Tame yet). as long as you are only taming creatures with standard ability scores or the non-elite array of scores then cr is an accurate measure of power especially if the creatures are advancing by hdYeah, I'm working off the assumption that all monsters use the default stats from the Monster Manual (and other books with monsters in them). If the DM wants to throw in higher powered stat arrays, thats his choice to give them something more high powered. |
| Stado09-30-05, 02:08 PM | Having been an avid Pokéfreak when I was younger, I've always been intrigued by the idea that Pokémon put forward, and that is to capture and control magical creatures. As such, I'd have to say I'm very much so intrigued by the prospect of this base class: the Monster Tamer (of which I'm glad I was able to help in giving it a name :D). Now then, while I'm no self-proclaimed master of balance, I feel this class could do with either having both Good Reflex and Will saves or just a Good Will save. I see this fitting with the idea that the Tamer is the master in his relationship with monsters, and as such, is also proficient in keeping that status. One question I have is this: what is the xp cost for creating higher grade Soul Crystals, if any? Is it in fact 1/25th of the gold cost? Meaning a Master Soul Crystal will cost the Monster Tamer 600 xp? I'd specify this. In conclusion I'd just like add that I will certainly be using this in my own campaign when you and I, and the majority of everyone else who gives their comments to this base class, feel that it is balanced with the core classes of the Player's Handbook. |
| rampant09-30-05, 04:26 PM | Leadership, thrallherd, mind bendder, or undead leadership if you got a monstrous/thrall cohort would this class change that interaction I wonder if any DM in his right mind would ever let me play this those master abilities are too powerful can anyone say advanced dragon template to stratosphere just make it a boost not an overwhelming blanket of perfect control this could also be used to make Final Fantasy X type summoners |
| Edymnion10-01-05, 04:54 PM | if you got a monstrous/thrall cohort would this class change that interactionYeah, I should specify that anything you catch as a monster takes on the same roll as familiar/animal companion/etc in that they become extensions of the Tamer, and are no longer valid targets for things like taking character classes or being the subject of Leadership-type feats. those master abilities are too powerful can anyone say advanced dragon template to stratosphereHonestly, I was at a bit of a loss as to what to make the capstone ability. As is, I don't think its entirely out of line, but its easily the most abusable of the abilities. They're still limited in how high of a Handle Animal check they can make to advance the monster (we're looking at DC's well over 40). Although, I realize this isn't that much of a limit considering how an Epic level Tamer would immediantly stock up on Epic level skill boosters. But yeah, I don't have a good idea for what Mastery should be. Is just saying "There is no limit on the number of Monsters of this type/subtype you can control" sufficient enough reason to stay in the class for a full 20 levels? |
| Kirbys_Big_Fan10-01-05, 10:18 PM | If you knockout a creature then capture it with a soul crystal, do you get EXP for it? |
| Edymnion10-02-05, 12:22 AM | If you knockout a creature then capture it with a soul crystal, do you get EXP for it?You beat it, didn't ya? :D Its rather like asking "If I knockout the human and take his stuff, do I still get the xp?" Yeah, you beat it fair and square, you get xp for it. Just instead of a magic sword for a weapon as a reward, you get the critter itself. |
| Kirbys_Big_Fan10-02-05, 12:38 AM | Did you ever play-test this? |
| Edymnion10-02-05, 12:24 PM | Did you ever play-test this?First line of the original post:This isn't finished yet, and still has some gaps. So its still open to change.No, I haven't playtested it because it isn't finished yet. I want to get it to where it looks like its done and playable before I actually playtest it. Not unlike waiting until you put the wheels on a car before you take it for a test drive ;) |
| rampant10-02-05, 02:07 PM | He is right about need ing capstone abilities even if the current ones are overpowered how about the ability to advance creatures beyond the normal limts of thier race so that in epic play everyone doesn't have to give up thier monsters from before to get monsters that can advance with the epic beasties so you can stick to that cool masively over templated bear you have been tweaking and advancing since level 5 |
| Stado10-02-05, 03:14 PM | I too like the idea of having the ability to advance creatures beyond the normal limts of their race. Indeed; who says I don't want to keep my uber vampiric bunny that I've had since 1st level? |
| Edymnion10-03-05, 10:15 PM | Are there rules in place for Epic level monster progression, or are we talking just "You are no longer constrained by the upper hitdice limit on your monster"? And if thats the case, would they continue growing in size as you advanced their hitdice? |
| rampant10-03-05, 10:25 PM | the advance ment is easy they simply continue to gain power as before, but unless you change the creature on a more basic level (advanced training) the size cap would not increase and remember bab stops giving ititerative attacks at 20 Bab |
| caegren10-04-05, 01:36 AM | i think this is very well done first of all... so good job. in the multiclass suggestion i thought you could add on totemist from the magic of incarnum book. seeing as how the tyotemist is all about channelling the power of magical beasts it seems like a great complement, allowing the tamer to bear some of the features of the creatures he uses (especially magically beasts obviously) |
| rampant10-04-05, 12:34 PM | don't forget the buffable animal companion |
| Edymnion10-05-05, 01:10 AM | i think this is very well done first of all... so good job. in the multiclass suggestion i thought you could add on totemist from the magic of incarnum book. seeing as how the tyotemist is all about channelling the power of magical beasts it seems like a great complement, allowing the tamer to bear some of the features of the creatures he uses (especially magically beasts obviously)Eh, I don't have MoI yet, so I'd have to wait until I saw it. But yeah, from what I've seen, the Totemist would make a great multiclass. Someone who not only tames the beasts, but gets into a real one on one level with them too. |
| rampant10-05-05, 01:36 AM | there is a prc in complete adventurer called tamer of beasts i think take a look |
| Edymnion10-05-05, 12:38 PM | there is a prc in complete adventurer called tamer of beasts i think take a lookYes, the Beasttamer PrC has been out since 3.0 :) |
| Edymnion10-09-05, 12:53 AM | :bump: Okay then, since the chatter has died down and I still haven't seen a really good "This is totally broken, and here's why", I'm going to assume that the general concensus is that the class is pretty well balanced as is (now), and ready for PC use (and actual playtesting)? |
| Ak'Zul10-09-05, 05:12 AM | sorry to have to say this, but this totally sounds like pokemon to me. |
| rampant10-09-05, 05:18 AM | AK'zul pay attention read all the posts we know that already as too endymion yes the perfection are totally broken is that clear now fix them is that clear enough geez i tried to say it nicely |
| Majorafire7710-09-05, 08:38 AM | sorry to have to say this, but this totally sounds like pokemon to me. So... what's your point? |
| Edymnion10-09-05, 02:04 PM | yes the perfection are totally broken is that clear now fix them is that clear enoughHeh, oh yeah, I had forgotten about that :D Still not sure as to what to replace it with though. Anyone have suggestions? |
| rampant10-09-05, 03:52 PM | whats wrong with breaking the HD limit |
| Edymnion10-09-05, 09:58 PM | whats wrong with breaking the HD limitIs that enough? |
| rampant10-09-05, 10:43 PM | i'm not following you if you need to fill in more spaces give them a few more of the lower level abilities |
| Edymnion10-10-05, 12:23 AM | i'm not following you if you need to fill in more spaces give them a few more of the lower level abilitiesNo, I mean a capstone ability should be something big, something grand. Like the Monk getting Perfect Self... Although, looking through the PHB classes, most of them don't actually have a capstone ability, do they? That seems to be more of a PrC thing... Okay, so maybe the hitdice thing is an acceptable idea after all. Should it be made as just a lvl 20 ability, or should we come up with another option and keep it as a Master level special ability? |
| rampant10-10-05, 03:49 AM | if you want to keep master abilities your going to need at least two more next every tamer will want this power so make it standard maybe the ability capture one legal beastie with no saves or combat involved? your right coming up with high level abilities for this guy is hard |
| Edymnion10-10-05, 07:04 PM | I suppose I could restruction Advance Monster to be Least/Lesser/Greater where Least is upping HD, Lesser is adding Template, and Greater is advancing beyond the normal HD limit. In fact, I think I will, and we'll see how that comes out. And yeah, its not easy to come up with something that makes going a full 20 levels in this class (as opposed to a "+1 Spellcaster Level" PrC) worth going for. After all, a well made base class should be one in which you have to stop and seriously ask if its worth taking a PrC or not. Any class, and I mean *ANY* class where the best thing you can do is jump into a PrC *cough*sorcerer*cough* is poorly done. Straight up 20 levels in any single base class should be just as appealing as a full 10 levels in a PrC. |
| Kirbys_Big_Fan10-10-05, 08:46 PM | The sorcerer doesn't jump into a prestige class as quickly as the paladin. Which, is why I perfer the varient in my sig. ANYWAY, it looks great, and lets see if I can help. Okay.. Um..... Letsee.. Uhhhhhhhhh..... This is hard. |
| rampant10-10-05, 09:54 PM | i like the idea of bieng able to change say a fiendish fire elemental horse into a true knightmare keep that part maybe a least(HD) Lesser(Template) Greater(change) and Master (unlimited HD) |
| Edymnion10-10-05, 11:20 PM | i like the idea of bieng able to change say a fiendish fire elemental horse into a true knightmare keep that part maybe a least(HD) Lesser(Template) Greater(change) and Master (unlimited HD)I'd rather leave the full on switch (from fiendish horse to nightmare) wrapped in with templating, purely because I think something like that needs to stay in the "Maybe if the DM allows it" stage than "But its a class ability!" stage. |
| rampant10-11-05, 12:20 AM | ok take out the change entry and toss in a few extra chances at the tame different types trick |
| Edymnion10-11-05, 12:47 AM | and toss in a few extra chances at the tame different types trickYou mean more Special Ability slots? I'll admit, as a player, I'd really want 1 more Lesser Special Ability in there, but I can't see a good way to put it in without really overloading something. As is, you get a new Special Ability every 3 levels. Putting in one more would throw off the whole flow, and going every other level would be way too much, IMO. As much as I would *LIKE* to have more types tamable in a single character, as a player, as a DM I'm thinking its better to have the player make tough choices than just letting them have everything they want. When something is a no brainer, it usually means something is broken. If you have to stop and think "Do I really want to do this, or the other one?", thats a hallmark of balance, IMO, that you would do equally well with any one of the choices. |
| Edymnion10-13-05, 04:55 PM | Okay, no chatter lately, so am I to take it that we're good to go now? |
| Edymnion11-03-05, 08:28 PM | Anti-Prune :bump: |
| Anshin Mandango11-03-05, 09:54 PM | well, i don't know about being good to go, the crystal ray damage, even if it is non-leathal and only aplicable in certan situations seems a bit much, because with that kind of power, particularly in the mid to high level, it is more efficient to just "beat them down with the crystal" then with weapons or your monster. speaking of the crystal's ray attack, i couldn't find the range for the ray in there, so what is it? 10ft? 30ft? Anyway, back to the crystal damage (i know i'm jumping back and forth, sorry, but that is just how my mind works) if you are determined to have it be extra dice of damage with levels, then maybe you could tone it down a bit, like say instead of dealing non-leathal damage you make a capture check by rolling the listed ammount of die and if the result is equal to or greater then the monster's remaining hp, then you capture the monster. this also deals with certain monsters being immune to non-lethal damage without having to put in special exceptions. also, i belive you have a typo where you put Advance Monster, Greater, where i belive you ment to put Advancer Monster, Lesser. And that's all i can think of for now, other then that i think this is a wonderful class and i look forward to all the kinks being ironed out so I can possibly play one myself. EDIT: i just thought of somthing you could give the class, how about somthing like a Knowledge (monster) skill just for identifying monsters and any abilities, weaknesses ect. so instead of having to buy ranks in Knowledge (religion) to i.d. undead, Knowledge (nature) to i.d. animals, and Knowldege (the plains) to i.d. outsiders ect. they could save some skill points with this specialized Knowledge (monster) skill. |
| Edymnion11-03-05, 10:38 PM | There we go, try that one on for size :) |
| rampant11-04-05, 01:06 AM | make it like bardic knowledge |
| Anshin Mandango11-04-05, 09:29 AM | bardic knowledge huh? so somthing like this? Monster Knowledge: A monster tamer may make a special monster knowledge check with a bonus equal to his monster tamer level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about the name, type and any powers or weaknesses of a tamable creature. A monster trainer may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random. DC Type of Knowledge 10 Monster's name, type, and any abilities common to that type 20 Monster's subtype(s) (if any), 1 or 2 special attacks 25 1 or 2 special qualties or weaknesses (such as what material overcomes thier DR, if any), 1 or 2 more special attacks 30 Unique details about that creature, such as if it has been advanced via HD or a template, 1 or 2 more special qualties or weaknesses 40 The monster's entire stat block, including all non-standard modifiers actually, now that i've actually gone and written it out, it seems like a good idea, Edymnion, feel free to steal this idea if you belive it will fit with the class. |
| Edymnion11-04-05, 08:50 PM | Actually, the DCs for this sort of thing are already set in the default rules. |
| Intellectual Punk11-13-05, 09:15 PM | Lets go, Edymnion. Please rewrite this with all of the changes PLEASE :bigeyes: |
| dman11-23-05, 11:38 PM | I like your new class, Ed. I was thinking of a couple of problem points. One is adding templates: Is there a limit to the number of templates you can add? Can I make a half-dragon, vampire, 12 headed, tauric, spellstiched, shadow, half-fey, half-troll, half-illithid Umberhulk? Another is using a monster whose CR is equal to your class level. A monster of CR 4 is about the right level for a group of 4 4th level characters to beat. If you simply add one to your group you're adding quite a bit of firepower to your party...almost doubling it. For example a huge storm elemental (MMIII) is a 16HD flying creature with damage reduction and 2 attacks that have +20 to hit and do 4d6 + 10 damage. It has a CR of 8, meaning as an 8th level tamer you would outpower all but the most uber-optimized members of your group. I think you need to lower or control the power level of the creatures somehow, and maybe double the number he can control. I think this is a great idea for a class, and you have put a lot of good work into it. Keep up the good work. If you have some good ideas, let me know, because I'd love to playtest this class. |
| Edymnion11-30-05, 07:59 PM | Lets go, Edymnion. Please rewrite this with all of the changes PLEASE :bigeyes:Um... I've been updating the original post with each good idea. Its up to date. I like your new class, Ed. I was thinking of a couple of problem points. One is adding templates: Is there a limit to the number of templates you can add? Can I make a half-dragon, vampire, 12 headed, tauric, spellstiched, shadow, half-fey, half-troll, half-illithid Umberhulk? Only limit is CR and type prereqs for the templates. Another is using a monster whose CR is equal to your class level. A monster of CR 4 is about the right level for a group of 4 4th level characters to beat. If you simply add one to your group you're adding quite a bit of firepower to your party...almost doubling it.Actually, by CR calculations, adding another opponent of the same level only raises the CR of the encounter by 1. Hit the calculator link in my sig, and put in a single CR 5 monster, the party, and hit calculate. Then put in 2 CR 5 monsters. The encounter level only goes up by 1. With the limit of only being able to have monsters a level or more below you, along with the weakness of the class without the monsters, should end up balancing out to a CR of the appropriate level.because I'd love to playtest this class.Hey, feel free to playtest it! The up to date version should be in the first post, I just haven't had time or the oppertunity to play test it yet. By all means, play it, see how it does, get us some real world data to work off of :) |
| rampant11-30-05, 09:17 PM | depending on reviews I'll probably yoink this Ok with you? yes my need to ask despite all references to you wanting help playtesting is part of an iherent psychological malfunction, i'm a nutcase |
| Edymnion11-30-05, 10:20 PM | depending on reviews I'll probably yoink this Ok with you? yes my need to ask despite all references to you wanting help playtesting is part of an iherent psychological malfunction, i'm a nutcaseLol, okay, for you and everybody else... "This is an official request for any and all parties interested in playtesting to please do so, under the condition that any relivant reviews, suggestions, or opinions that result from such activity be reported back to this thread as time allows." Yes, yoink, play. :P |
| turalisj12-09-05, 04:26 PM | Feel free to play test it with your character in my campaign edy, just need a name and race from you for a character. :D (class looks great, reminds me of monster rancher) |
| Edymnion12-12-05, 09:28 PM | Yeah, if you ever get it started :P |
| Edymnion07-30-06, 06:08 PM | :bump: |
| Edymnion02-09-07, 10:20 PM | Anti-prune :bump: |