Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Teh Lurv 03-30-04, 02:51 AM	So, yep, this is another Sorcerer Variant to further clog the Classes forum. :D After seeing many of the variants on the boards that are simply overpowered uber-casting classes with everything cool tacked on, I finally decided I would toss my hat in and hopefully do better with the question of how I would design the Sorcerer if the task were up to me. My goal for this variant was to attempt to address some of the complaints players have regarding the Sorcerer class while (hopefully) keeping the power level of this variant Sorcerer appropriate for a Wizard of the same level. Teh Lurv's Variant Sorcerer http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph35_gallery/PHB35_PG51_WEB.jpg Sorcerers are arcane spellcasters who can tap the flow of magic with innate talent to cast spells. One can easily tell the difference between a Wizard and Sorcerer by how they dress. Wizards are always are found wearing hot looking heavy robes, usually with a pointed hat. A Sorcerer prefers to make his clothing out of belt buckles. I guess the more belt buckles a Sorcerer wears, the more 'in-tune' to the forces of magic he is. Just look at the number of belts Hennet is wearing. He's like a walking Men's store. Another difference between the two schools of casting is personal appearance. A Wizard usually has the physical appearance of a UNIX coder: Long unkempt hair and a shaggy beard. The Sorcerer doesn't bother cutting his nails and gets symetrical tatoos. Oh yeah the Sorcerer, because he is so 'worldly' totally does the Tae-bo thing. Just look at Hennet's pecs. No way a Wizard could find the time to do that. Finally, Sorcerers are totally the life of any party thanks to a high charisma stat. Wizards, on the other hand, are usually found playing roleplaying games and debating the merits of Captain Kirk vs. Captain Picard because their player used cha as the dump stat. Lousy min-maxing players... HD: Unchanged. Weapon Proficency: Unchanged Skill points gained per level: Same Class skills: Remove Bluff, add Diplomacy Level BAB F/R/W Class Abilities 1st +0 +0/+0/+2 Summon Familiar 2nd +1 +0/+0/+3 3rd +1 +1/+1/+3 4th +2 +1/+1/+4 5th +2 +1/+1/+4 6th +3 +2/+2/+5 7th +3 +2/+2/+5 8th +4 +2/+2/+6 9th +4 +3/+3/+6 10th +5 +3/+3/+7 11th +5 +3/+3/+7 12th +6/+1 +4/+4/+8 13th +6/+1 +4/+4/+8 14th +7/+2 +4/+4/+9 15th +7/+2 +5/+5/+9 16th +8/+3 +5/+5/+10 17th +8/+3 +5/+5/+10 18th +9/+4 +6/+6/+11 19th +9/+4 +6/+6/+11 20th +10/+5 +6/+6/+12 Class progression unchanged. I don't believe the Sorcerer class should receive bonus magic feats like the Wizard does. I view the Wizard's bonus magic feat every five levels as the fruits of his arcane studies and as part of his flavor. A Sorcerer (according to description) draws arcane power not from intellectual study, but inner strength of spirit. The idea that the Sorcerer can sponataneously cast spells due to heritage is a popular theme on these boards. Many of the variant classes adopt this notion into the class progression. I, for some reason, like this notion as well. Every five levels, the Sorcerer gains a benefit from a Bloodlines list. I will discuss this further later in the post. Spells Known: Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st 4 2 - - - - - - - - 2nd 5 3 - - - - - - - - 3rd 5 3 1 - - - - - - - 4th 6 4 2 - - - - - - - 5th 6 4 2 1 - - - - - - 6th 7 4 3 2 - - - - - - 7th 7 5 3 2 1 - - - - - 8th 8 5 3 3 2 - - - - - 9th 8 5 4 3 2 1 - - - - 10th 9 5 4 3 3 2 - - - - 11th 9 5 4 4 3 2 1 - - - 12th 9 5 4 4 3 3 2 - - - 13th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 - - 14th 9 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 - - 15th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 - 16th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 - 17th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 18th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 19th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 20th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 The big change to the spells known list is that I have increased the spellcasting progression of the Sorcerer by one level. She now progesses at the same rate as all the other full-time spellcasting classes. Spells Per Day Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st 3 1 - - - - - - - - 2nd 4 2 - - - - - - - - 3rd 4 2 1 - - - - - - - 4th 4 3 2 - - - - - - - 5th 4 3 2 1 - - - - - - 6th 4 3 3 2 - - - - - - 7th 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - - 8th 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - - 9th 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - 10th 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - - - 11th 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - 12th 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - - 13th 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - 14th 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - 15th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - 16th 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - 17th 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 18th 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 19th 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 20th 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 I lowered the Sorcerer's Spells Per Day to a cap of four (now equal to the Wizard's chart.) I did this for the following reasons: 1. It makes the Sorcerer conform to the standard spells per day list other arcane spellcasters in the PHB have. The Sorcerer is the only class with a max of 6 spells per day. The Druid and Cleric both have a standard of five spells per day up to level five and four spells per day beyond that. The Bard and Wizard both cap out a four spells per day. 2. At higher levels, six spell slots per day become unnecessary. With high charisma bonus spells, high level Sorcerers will often not need to use 7 - 9 1st level spell slots. 3. It helps balance off the spell output by the Wizard and Sorcerer of the same level. This is especially important since I increased the rate a Sorcerer acquires her spells by one level. With the reduction in Spells Per Day, it makes the move of increasing the spellcasting progression of one level less potent(although it is a step up for the Sorcerer regardless.) A Sorc can now cast Fireball at fifth level, but will be limited to two or three castings a day. So that is my variant Sorc. I will probably polish up the formating of the post later on. Finally, I will present some of my nagging concerns about this variant: [list=1] The increase of spellcasting progression of one level for the Sorcerer is a concern for me. Even though I reduced the Sorcerers spells per day by two, the class is still ending up with a large net gain. Whether this makes the Sorcerer too strong, I am not sure. I wouldn't be surprised if this variant needs to be toned down a bit if it ever goes through a round of playtesting by a player. [/list=1]
Raging Halfling 03-30-04, 02:59 AM	Teh Lurv, Do you have any plans to try incorporating the ability to use Quicken Spell into this rebuild? It's a fundamental problem in trying to balance the sorcerer with the wizard, especially after 3.5 nerfed the Haste spell. Not that I don't think Haste needed to be changed. The problem is like this: Remove the casting time penalty to allow Quicken Spell. Result: The ability to spontaneously quicken any spell known at any time is too munchkinized for words. But if you don't give the ability to Quicken, the sorcerer is inherently behind a well-built high level wizard. Do you have any thoughts as to this problem? I'm dying to know, especially after debating futilely with BlaineTog on this point for a couple of days.
Teh Lurv 03-30-04, 03:33 AM	Originally posted by Raging Halfling Teh Lurv, Do you have any plans to try incorporating the ability to use Quicken Spell into this rebuild? It's a fundamental problem in trying to balance the sorcerer with the wizard, especially after 3.5 nerfed the Haste spell. Not that I don't think Haste needed to be changed. Do you have any thoughts as to this problem? I'm dying to know, especially after debating futilely with BlaineTog on this point for a couple of days. No, I don't plan on incorporating any rules for Sorcs to use Quicken. BlaneTog (and others) believe that the Sorcerer is short changed on what should be a natural ability for them. What they don't realize is that being able to spontaneously cast metamagic spells by making a full round action is a boon compared to a wizard having to anticipate which spells to metamagic ahead of time. I side with Skip when he says that Quicken Spell is a feat Sorcs just can't take advantage of (unless a Sorc opts for Arcane Preparation.) If a player really wants to use Quicken Spell, the Arcane Prep feat will solve her problems. Now proponents of Quicken for Sorc will point out that Arcane Prep will put the Sorc behind on a build, but I believe that the benefits of spontaneous metamagic more than make up for the lack of a single metamagic feat.
Teh Lurv 03-30-04, 12:40 PM	:bump:
detectevil 03-30-04, 12:46 PM	I still don't like the bloodlines thing. The sorcerer class should be about spellcasting. Dwelving into one supernatural race should be done in prestigeclass, like the elemental savant or the hallowed mage (NOT the dragon disciple)
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-30-04, 12:47 PM	Wow! A sorcerer variant that is not broken! I may have a few minor flavor issues with some of the bloodlines (IMO charm person is just too useless for a sorcerer, for instance) but never mind that. Reducing their spells per day was a bold (and, I think, necessary) step. Personally I would have boost the number of spells known just a tad more, but that's just me :) I don't see Quicken Spell as broken for this sorcerer. They don't have a massive number of spell slots per day, and Quicken still takes up 4 spell levels.
Haldrik 03-30-04, 04:13 PM	Detect Evil:I still don't like the bloodlines thing (to be required). The sorcerer class should be about spellcasting. Dwelving into one supernatural race should be done in prestigeclass. :thumbsup:
Haldrik 03-30-04, 04:49 PM	Raging: I'm ... debating futilely with BlaineTog on this point (about the casting time penalty for Sorcerers when they use metamagic). Blain Tog is not the only one who thinks the casting time penalty is unnecessary (and malicious). Certain class designers intentionally denied the Sorcerer class from functioning as a primary spellcaster in order to promote the hegemony of the Wizard class. This policy is well documented (thanks to Jaimas). The favoritism of the Wizard over the Sorcerer is offensive to DnD players who prefer the *spontaneous* spellcasting system and do not prefer the Vancian spell prep system. Most people believe the casting time penalty has little or no gaming significance and is irrelevant for balancing purposes, except to deny the Sorcerer Quicken. If Sorcerers can use Quicken (which they must) then the purpose of the casting time penalty no longer exists. Metamagic is metamagic. If it takes longer for Sorcerers to cast it, then it should take longer for Wizards to cast it too. Spells do *not* have different casting times for Sorcerers and Wizards, and metamagics should not have different casting times either. The casting time penalty has little to do with balancing and more to do with handicapping the Sorcerer class for not a helpful reason. The casting time penalty needs to be overturned.
lancean 03-30-04, 04:50 PM	I still don't think it addresses one of the fundamental failings of the sorcerer concept. Namely, if sorcerers are ordinary people who can work magic through will alone, then why do they have such a narrow skill set? Sorcerers in my campaign are as per book, BUT... they get skills just like the Expert NPC class. (6 points per level, pick any 10 skills as class skills) With THAT they're truely ordinary people who just happen to work magic... IMHO of course. :cool:
Haldrik 03-30-04, 05:05 PM	Iancean, Frankly, I don't think any class should have a narrow skill set. If I'm a Fighter who specializes in espionage, then I should have access to Hide, Open Locks, Listen and so on. Same if I'm a Wizard who specializes in stealth. All classes should be able to take any skill they wish. Some skills are very powerful: Listen, Hide, Concentration. 1 rank in them = 1½ skill points. Some skills are normal in power: Knowledge of Nature, Disguise, Ride. 1 rank in them = 1 skill point. Some skill are seldom usable: Swim, Forgery. 1 rank in them = ½ skill point. Simply weighing the value of each rank encourages people to not just pick the most powerful skills. After all, you can get 3 ranks in Swim for the same investment as 1 rank in Concentration. So if you want your character to be a good swimmer for roleplaying reasons, you might as well. (And why can't Sorcerers swim?)
Teh Lurv 03-30-04, 06:50 PM	Originally posted by detectevil I still don't like the bloodlines thing. The sorcerer class should be about spellcasting. Dwelving into one supernatural race should be done in prestigeclass, like the elemental savant or the hallowed mage (NOT the dragon disciple) Well the Sorcerer isn't the only class that delves into the supernatural. The monk type changes to Outsider at level 20 along with a slew of supernatural abilities. The Druid also has a slew of supernatural abilities (arguments about its balance aside.) I can certainly understand your objection, however, to the bloodlines. I kept the bonuses from the bloodlines as small as possible without being useless since arcane spellcasting is such a huge ability. I don't believe the bloodline option has a large impact on the strength of the variant. A player could opt to remove the Bloodline section of the Sorcerer altogether without any change in how the character plays.
Teh Lurv 03-30-04, 07:21 PM	Originally posted by Haldrik Iancean, Frankly, I don't think any class should have a narrow skill set. If I'm a Fighter who specializes in espionage, then I should have access to Hide, Open Locks, Listen and so on. Same if I'm a Wizard who specializes in stealth. All classes should be able to take any skill they wish. If you want a fighter with good skills in Hide, Open Locks, etc. play a multiclass figher/rogue. Giving different skills different costs to gain ranks is a horrible idea. You say skills like swim are seldom used? What happens if the DM gives the players an adventure where swim is depended on heavily or a DM that creates an adventure without lockpicking or trapfinding? I find your definition of skill usefulness to be arbritrary because it is arbritrary. No one can predict which skills are going to be the most powerful in a given adventure, it entirely depends on the DM and player actions. The reason there are class and cross-class skills is to keep each class distinct in what abilities it is best at accomplishing. If all skill were class, the Rogue would find it's usefulness threatened by other classes spending skill points in skills such as Open Lock etc.
Teh Lurv 03-30-04, 07:27 PM	Originally posted by lancean I still don't think it addresses one of the fundamental failings of the sorcerer concept. Namely, if sorcerers are ordinary people who can work magic through will alone, then why do they have such a narrow skill set? Sorcerers in my campaign are as per book, BUT... they get skills just like the Expert NPC class. (6 points per level, pick any 10 skills as class skills) With THAT they're truely ordinary people who just happen to work magic... IMHO of course. :cool: Iancean, you just answered your own question. Sorcerers are ordinary people who can work magic through will alone. THAT is why they have a small skill list. Look at the Wizard skill list: Strip away the knowledge skills (from their lifetime of arcane study) and their skill list is almost identical to the Sorcerer. Wizards aren't doing much beyond studying and Sorcerers aren't even doing that. Sorcerers != Experts with magic. An expert is an individual who spends most of their free time taking up a trade. A Sorcerer has more in common with...well... a commoner. Same HD, probably no formal education, and look! 2 skills per level!
schulerta 03-30-04, 08:08 PM	The easiest fix to the quicken spell problem is to allow sorcerers to use the Quicken Metamagic Rod. It won't throw off class balance either. Teh Lurv, I like what you have done here, although I would personally change the spell progression so that it was like a bards. At 3rd level the Sorc would get 0 2nd level spells, 5th 0 3rd level spells, and so on. I also wouldn't change the spells known. Though they would get 1 known spell at those odd levels where they get 0 spells per day, provided they have a high enough CHA bonus to cast a bonus spell from that level. Overall, if it would have been in the recent Sorcerer contest it would have one most balanced hands down in my book. Troy
Teh Lurv 03-31-04, 02:47 AM	Originally posted by Haldrik Raging: Blain Tog is not the only one who thinks the casting time penalty is unnecessary (and malicious). Certain class designers intentionally denied the Sorcerer class from functioning as a primary spellcaster in order to promote the hegemony of the Wizard class. This policy is well documented (thanks to Jaimas). The favoritism of the Wizard over the Sorcerer is offensive to DnD players who prefer the *spontaneous* spellcasting system and do not prefer the Vancian spell prep system. Most people believe the casting time penalty has little or no gaming significance and is irrelevant for balancing purposes, except to deny the Sorcerer Quicken. If Sorcerers can use Quicken (which they must) then the purpose of the casting time penalty no longer exists. Metamagic is metamagic. If it takes longer for Sorcerers to cast it, then it should take longer for Wizards to cast it too. Spells do *not* have different casting times for Sorcerers and Wizards, and metamagics should not have different casting times either. The casting time penalty has little to do with balancing and more to do with handicapping the Sorcerer class for not a helpful reason. The casting time penalty needs to be overturned. The idea that the added time to apply a metamagic to Sorcerers was created just to deny Sorcerers Quicken Spell is so absurd, my keyboard is drying off as I sprayed it with Coke while bursting with laughter. I'm sure Skip Williams was sitting in a dark, smoke-filled room with Cancer Man saying: "To make Sorcerers worthless, we must deny them the Quicken feat!" :rolleyes: Once again, I reitterate that Sorcerers can make use of the Quicken Feat. There is a nice little feat in T&B called Arcane Preperation that lets you take advantage of it. Take it, use it, love it. I don't know how people can possibly believe Wizards have better use of metamagic than Sorcerers. Have people who make these complaints used a Wizard? You have to prepare metamagicked spells ahead of time just like all your other spells. When deciding to use a metamagic feat, a Wizard has to either: a.) Have prior knowledge of the encounters the party will face. b.) Guess and hope it gets used. If a Wizard prepares an empowered fireball and then faces a fire immune creature or no combat encounters for the day, he is out of a higher level spell for the day as it holds a useless lower level spell. A Sorcerer, OTOH, has no such ill-luck. Since she doesn't have to prepare metamagicked spells ahead of time, she can simply choose to cast Cone of Cold instead of an empowered Fireball. A Sorcerer doesn't have to worry like a Wizard about losing higher level spells to metamagicked spells. The Sorc needs an empowered Fireball? Spend a full round action and shoot one off. You don't need empowered fireballs? Well then those fifth lvl slots are still open for fifth level spells. To me, that is a WAAAAYYYYY better way to manage metamagic. You guys should be thanking the designers for letting Sorcerers have it so easy by increasing casting time of a full round action. I would spend a feat to let my Wizard have that ability. Exactly how many people here are having their Sorc PC engage Wizards in a one-on-one battle? How is not being able to spontaneously quicken cast True Strike and Fireball killing your character? I'm sure someone will post "but it's makes the Wizard better!!!!" So what? Unless you have a Wizard in your party along with you using Quicken to make you look bad, then the point is ilrelevant. The party is probably not going to all die and your character probably isn't going to be a wuss simply because the mechanics of metamagic doesn't allow Quicken with spontaneous casting. I seriously doubt the following EVER happened: Fighter: Oh no! The encounter will kill us unless the Sorcerer casts exactly two fireballs this round! Sorcerer: I can't! I'm prohibited from using the Quicken feat! Party: Nooooooooo!!!!!!!! :DM kills everyone!: Please. It certainly is possible to allow Sorcerers to use Quicken spell by altering the way they prepare and cast metamagicked spells. For example, instead of allowing Sorcerers to be able to spontaneously cast metamagic spells, require the Sorcerer to prepare metamagic spells like a Wizard prepares spells in the morning. This solves the problem of using Quicken Spell and no one can complain one class as it better than the other in the metamagic dept. The 3.5e Sorcerer certainly has enough spell slots to hold a few metamagicked spells.
detectevil 03-31-04, 09:17 AM	Originally posted by Teh Lurv Iancean, you just answered your own question. Sorcerers are ordinary people who can work magic through will alone. THAT is why they have a small skill list. Look at the Wizard skill list: Strip away the knowledge skills (from their lifetime of arcane study) and their skill list is almost identical to the Sorcerer. Wizards aren't doing much beyond studying and Sorcerers aren't even doing that. Sorcerers != Experts with magic. An expert is an individual who spends most of their free time taking up a trade. A Sorcerer has more in common with...well... a commoner. Same HD, probably no formal education, and look! 2 skills per level! I see class skills as being everything bit of training a person should stumple upon while learning the craft of the class. A fighter, while fighting, learning how to jump is reasonable, but he should also learn how to tumble, not how to climb. A sorcerer learning spellcraft is believable, as is knowledge (the planes), but not bluff or diplomacy. I could say intimidate might be arguable, since sorcerers are likely to be haressed for their powers and would use a lot of intimidation.
Haldrik 03-31-04, 02:29 PM	The idea that the added time to apply a metamagic to Sorcerers was created just to deny Sorcerers Quicken Spell is so absurd. Actually, this is not absurd. The designers did not want to give Sorcerers Quicken. They *still* did not want to give Sorcerers Quicken when the Metamagic Rod was published. They soooooo did not want to give Sorcerers Quicken, that they allowed Wizards to use the Rod *spontaneously* (!) without any casting time penalty, and *still* enforced the casting time penalty for Sorcerers so that they could not use Quicken. Now, the added time to use the Metamagic Rod for Sorcerers *was* created just to deny Sorcerers Quicken Spell. This ridiculous handicap is what is truly absurd. The casting time penalty for Sorcerers to use metamagic must be removed.
Teh Lurv 04-18-04, 03:07 AM	I updated my Sorc variant after some time to think about it. I removed the bloodlines portion of the class. The more I thought about it, and reading responses from this and similiar threads, a base class shouldn't be the place for supernatural progressions. Leave a PrC to do that.
Ulden Throatbane 04-18-04, 01:09 PM	So, in exchange for an unstaggered spell progression (and nothing else), a sorcerer gives up 2 spell slots per spell level, as well as the only skill based on his primary ability score. This variant is actually worse than the default sorcerer.
Iuducium 04-18-04, 09:51 PM	There is no reason (the way I see it) to remove the increased casting time for sorcerers and metamagic. When a wizard preps a metamagicked spell, he spends quite a bit of time adding in the extra motions, words and what have you to the spell. He then leaves the trigger of the modified spell unsaid, etc. until he wishes to cast the spell. Sorcerers, however, are adding in the necessary words, gestures ans what not in at the time of the casting, essentially adding in a complex part of the spell on the fly. This involves a good bit of concentration and focusing of willpower to force the spell they are casting to alter itself the way they wish it to. In other words, wizards code in the altering effect beforehand and have no time penalty. Sorcs using metamagic have to add the metamagic part in addition to the magic triggers and such when they cast the spell, which would increase the time necessary to cast. 2cp for that. My suggestion on using sorc. metamagic stuff is the Metamagic Cradle feat in The Quintessential Sorcerer. It allows you to use one of your many spell slots to "cradle" the effect until you wish to use it, plus will allow you to still apply the effect to whatever spell you wish, with no increase in casting time. :D And PLEASE! for the love of GOD, do not state your opinions as if they are fact and you must be obeyed. Please.
BlaineTog 04-18-04, 10:15 PM	Originally posted by Iuducium There is no reason (the way I see it) to remove the increased casting time for sorcerers and metamagic.Every way you can flavorically prove the time increase to be necessary I can counter, and vice versa. So let's not argue it from a flavor perspective since we will get no where. Instead, let's look at tis from a Mechanica standpoint. What does the time increase do, exactly? Well, it does very very little. I honestly could care less about having to spend an extra move action to use a metamagic; I doubt I'd have used the move anyway. It *could* be a bother every so often, but I doubt it. By the time I'll be able to use metamagics effectively (ie am able to cast high enough level spells in order to take advantage of them), I'll probably have haste as either a spell known or in boot form. Assuming I ever need to move and cast a metamagiced spell in the same round (which isn't very often). So what is the effect of this? One single solitary effect: Deny the Sorcerer the Use of Quicken. I've said it before and I'll say it again: you can't make good use of the quicken metamagic feat unless you have an effective combination of spells in mind ahead of time. For the sorcerer, this means that you have to know what you are going to cast *at the level.* That is a lot of forethought, moreso than a wizard (who can discover the combo along the way). Obviously, you could use it to get off a delayed blast fireball and a normal fireball in the same round--but to what end? Using it with evocations is all well and good, but you're wasting spell slots. Chances are they'll either make the save or have enough HP to soak it up without much bother. There arn't very many 5th-or-lower save-or-die spells, so throughing extra casting at them and hoping they fail at least one save probably isn't going to get you anywhere. Plus, a 9th level save-or-die is at least 4 points more likely to kill them anyway. And you arn't exactly swimming in 9th level spell slots, you know. Even the sorcerer with 6 + bonus (I can't see a PHB race with realisitcally more than 1 or 2 bonus 9th level spells sub-epic) has to ration them. And since spell power scales exponentially instead of linearly, that 9th level spell probably would have killed them better anyway. Quicken is integral to power combos. Truestrike is probably the most obvious answer since it costs a 5th level quickened slot and basically lets you count one attack spell as autohit. Truestrike isn't very effective when not quickened (which is why its normally level 1), but quickening it is *awesome.* If I was a ranged-touch-heavy wizard, I'd probably prep all my 5th level slots with Quickened Truestrike and only miss on one out of twenty attacks (so once every few days). Sorcerers can't do that (other than with Arcane Prep, which I hate wit ha vengeance). Which means to hit anything, you need a decent dex. Sorcerers are *already* dependent on more abilities than the wizard, and now they need a higher Dex as well? Peachy. Mechanically speaking, I wouldn't mind if the time increase simply didn't apply to quicken, or quicken instead reduced a casting time to a move action (leaving a standard action for another spell). You'de end up with effectivelly the same mechanical result. But to get back to flavor: I still don't like it. The penalty will essentialll never be felt (especially if we allow sorcerers to use quicken), but it just doesn't taste right. Sorcerers *should* be the kings of metamagic; wizards are already the kinds of Massive Spell Knowledge. Spontenous casting is cool, but it's really just preparing your spells way way way far in advance. [/:rant:][/opinion] ;)
Teh Lurv 04-19-04, 04:32 AM	Originally posted by Ulden Throatbane So, in exchange for an unstaggered spell progression (and nothing else), a sorcerer gives up 2 spell slots per spell level, as well as the only skill based on his primary ability score. This variant is actually worse than the default sorcerer. The remove bluff part was an error I forgot to change. The various bloodlines in the previous version provided bonus class skills. It should be (and now edited) to be remove Bluff add Diplomacy.
Teh Lurv 04-19-04, 05:16 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Well, it does very very little. I honestly could care less about having to spend an extra move action to use a metamagic; I doubt I'd have used the move anyway. It *could* be a bother every so often, but I doubt it. By the time I'll be able to use metamagics effectively (ie am able to cast high enough level spells in order to take advantage of them), I'll probably have haste as either a spell known or in boot form. Assuming I ever need to move and cast a metamagiced spell in the same round (which isn't very often). Apparently you have never had your character ever be chased by monster. Not all situations involve a lone monster. It is true that with good party travel arraignment the caster can minimize the number of times a caster will come into melee. Originally posted by BlaineTog Sorcerers can't do that (other than with Arcane Prep, which I hate wit ha vengeance). Which means to hit anything, you need a decent dex. Sorcerers are *already* dependent on more abilities than the wizard, and now they need a higher Dex as well? Peachy. Well if you don't want to play Wizard and don't want to use the feats provided to allow Sorcs and bards to make use of Quicken,etc fine, suit yourself. Originally posted by BlaineTog Mechanically speaking, I wouldn't mind if the time increase simply didn't apply to quicken, or quicken instead reduced a casting time to a move action (leaving a standard action for another spell). You'de end up with effectivelly the same mechanical result. No you wouldn't: Wizard with Quicken: Free action spell + move + standard action spell Your Sorc with move Quicken: Move action + standard action spell That is definately not the same mechanic. Originally posted by BlaineTog But to get back to flavor: I still don't like it. The penalty will essentialll never be felt (especially if we allow sorcerers to use quicken), but it just doesn't taste right. Sorcerers *should* be the kings of metamagic; wizards are already the kinds of Massive Spell Knowledge. Spontenous casting is cool, but it's really just preparing your spells way way way far in advance. I still haven't heard any reasons why Sorcs should be "kings of metamagic" from anyone. All I hear is the same monodrome talk about "magic from within", etc. I would imagine it the other way around. When a Wizard applies metamagic, they are taking their time adding the additional complexities to the spells they memorize. When a Sorcerer applies metamagic, they are scribbling the additional complexities into the spell as they are casting it. All this talk of Quicken spell on this forum has done nothing ultimately. The discussion has mostly de-evoled to proponents patting each other on the back in self-congradulatory statements for finding "the bias of Skip", etc despite being the gentleman who devised the class in the first place (and who you should be thanking for providing you with a class you enjoy.) IMHO, you will sooner see the Sorc dropped as a class from the PHB than see the metamagic system rewritten to accomodate Quicken Spell for Sorcs. It'll never happen.
Teh Lurv 04-19-04, 05:19 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Quicken is integral to power combos. Truestrike is probably the most obvious answer since it costs a 5th level quickened slot and basically lets you count one attack spell as autohit. Truestrike isn't very effective when not quickened (which is why its normally level 1), but quickening it is *awesome.* If I was a ranged-touch-heavy wizard, I'd probably prep all my 5th level slots with Quickened Truestrike and only miss on one out of twenty attacks (so once every few days). So the whole reason you are making a stink about the Sorc is because you can't Quicken True Strike? I truly feel sorry for you if you feel a class is unplayable in a roleplaying game because they can't quicken True Strike.
Ulden Throatbane 04-19-04, 09:39 AM	Originally posted by Teh Lurv The remove bluff part was an error I forgot to change. The various bloodlines in the previous version provided bonus class skills. It should be (and now edited) to be remove Bluff add Diplomacy. The sorcerer is still losing 2 spell slots per spell level. As much as I like to see the spell progression unstaggered, the trade off you're proposing isn't anywhere near worth it. -1 spell slot per level is perhaps a better alternative.
Finarin Panjoro 04-19-04, 12:41 PM	Teh Lurv, Congrats on not making an overpowered variant. However my main complaint about the Sorceror is that at high levels it is invariably better to take a PrC with full spell progression than to remain a sorceror. Your variant does not address this problem. Have you any ideas in that regard? Also since Quicken Spell seems to be a major focus for many players may I suggest the following ruling: A Sorceror with the quicken spell feat, may quicken a number of spell levels per day equal to his level. The cost of the spell is determined after the metamagic is applied. So a 20th level Sorceror could cast a quickened True Strike 4 times per day. A 20th level Sorceror could cast 2 quickened 5th level spells per day (5+4=9), etc. Just a thought. -Finarin.
Kyuketsukiouji 04-19-04, 02:20 PM	Teh Lurv: Your arguments are flawed on a couple of obvious points: One: Arcane Preparation is not core material. Any noncore feat or feature touted as a fix for a core class problem is inherently suspect. If you have to leave the PHB to fix a PHB-specific situation (a core class), you should suspect something is wrong. Two: Sorcerers indeed don't have to be the "Kings of Metamagic". But they have to be King of something. The Sorcerer is presented in the PHB as a primary arcane caster, alternative to the Wizard. They thus have to stand on equal footing as the Wizard. Both classes have to be on par with each other, unless you want the sorcerer to be a partial-caster class, like a bard. The problem with that is that nothing in the Sorcerer class description or class features will convince anyone that the Sorcerer was meant to be anything but a prime arcane caster class. Thus the sorcerer needs something to put it on par with the Mage's "Knows every spell in the book" potential. Many people seem to think this "something" is on-the-fly metamagic. Three: If wizards add stuff to their spells at preparation, shouldn't they take more time to prepare spells with metamagic? Why is it that sorcerers are penalised at firing time, but mages aren't penalised at loading time? Four: There are tons of spell chains that Quicken make more powerful, and True Strike is only one of them (though it is a good one). It's the ability to cast two spells a round, even if the second one is just magic missile, that makes the gap extreme. This gap should not exist between two primary caster classes. The "approach" of magic shouldn't have such a radical power gap.
Teh Lurv 04-19-04, 06:02 PM	Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji One: Arcane Preparation is not core material. Any noncore feat or feature touted as a fix for a core class problem is inherently suspect. If you have to leave the PHB to fix a PHB-specific situation (a core class), you should suspect something is wrong. You have a valid point, Acrane Prep would not be available for core-only campaigns. Ultimately, I don't think that Quicken Spell is that big of a deal for the Sorcerer class to require a fix. As a player who has taken the base class Sorcerer through low level to high level, I never missed the Quicken Spell feat or felt I wasn't being effective at contributing to the party. Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji Two: Sorcerers indeed don't have to be the "Kings of Metamagic". But they have to be King of something. The Sorcerer is presented in the PHB as a primary arcane caster, alternative to the Wizard. They thus have to stand on equal footing as the Wizard. Both classes have to be on par with each other, unless you want the sorcerer to be a partial-caster class, like a bard. The problem with that is that nothing in the Sorcerer class description or class features will convince anyone that the Sorcerer was meant to be anything but a prime arcane caster class. Thus the sorcerer needs something to put it on par with the Mage's "Knows every spell in the book" potential. Many people seem to think this "something" is on-the-fly metamagic. Sorcerers are Kings of Spontaneous Casting, no other class (save Bard) has that advantage. Even with 3.5e rules, putting spells into the spellbook beyond your level up allotment is time consuming and expensive. A fast paced campaign prevents Wizards from getting the time to sit down and scribe into the spellbook. The cost of spellbook scribing also cuts into the Wizard crafting or buying items, putting him behind other players in gear. Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji Three: If wizards add stuff to their spells at preparation, shouldn't they take more time to prepare spells with metamagic? Why is it that sorcerers are penalised at firing time, but mages aren't penalised at loading time? 1. When a Sorcerer casts a metamagic spell, it requires a full round action. A full round action in game terms is 6 seconds. A normal version of the spell is a standard action which can be used with a move action. For simplicity sake, let's assume that both take the PC 3 seconds to complete. A Sorc has to sacrifice his move action to produce metamagicked spells. That means every applied metamagic requires between 1 - 3 seconds of extra prep time. IIRC, a Wizard needs 15 minutes to memorize his daily allotment of spells. The time needed to add metamagic components is insignificant to the Wizard's prep time. 2. Wizards don't prepare spells with metamagic in the heat of the moment, Sorcerers do. A Wizard sits down in the morning and has to be undisturbed for 15 minutes while he allots his spells. A Sorcerer casts his spells when needed, usually where those extra seconds to add metamagic count (like in a battle.) In addition, a Wizard doesn't have to worry about concentration while he is sitting down peacibily memorizing the spells. A Sorcerer has the din of battle or stress of suceeding weighing on him. A Sorcerer has to focus more on the spell to get off a metamagicked version. Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji Four: There are tons of spell chains that Quicken make more powerful, and True Strike is only one of them (though it is a good one). It's the ability to cast two spells a round, even if the second one is just magic missile, that makes the gap extreme. This gap should not exist between two primary caster classes. The "approach" of magic shouldn't have such a radical power gap. Again, I don't this "radical power gap" caused by Quicken Spell. But I am limited to my own experience and the experience of those that I game with. I have used Quicken in builds infrequently and never with a ranged touch spell combo slant. If I am wrong, and Quicken Spell is 'must' for all spellcasters compared to taking any other feat, then Quicken Spell should be nerfed, not handed out equally to all classes. Just like with 3.5e Persistant Spell, 3,5e Quicken Spell might benefit with a +6 level adjustment. Then the D2 Sorceress players can sleep at night knowing that the Wizard class doesn't have a 'radical power gap'. :rolleyes:
Kyuketsukiouji 04-19-04, 06:45 PM	At 20th level, the difference between having quicken and no quicken is this: Sorcerer: Wins initiative (assuming he wasted a valuable feat on Improved Initiative). Casts area Greater Dispel Magic to strip Wizard of his Spell Turning. Turn Ends. Wizard: Casts area Greater Dispel Magic to strip Sorcerer of his Spell Turning. Make a Knowledge (Spellcraft) DC 5 check as a free action to remember Sorcerers can't quicken spell, ever. Casts Quickened Bestow Curse to drop the Sorcerer down by 6 points of Charisma, making him loose tons of spell slots. Sorcerer: Runs. Yes, this is hideous oversimplification, but it should at least demonstrate that one more spell per round, even a weak one, can make a big difference. Heck, try this example: Wizard: Wins initiative (because he's got the feats). Casts Quickened Acid Arrow. Readies an action to Counterspell. Sorcerer: Watches the grass grow. Two spells a round for a wizard is like two attacks a round for a fighter. YEs, the second spell won't hurt much, but when the other guy has half your casting time, he's toast.
True Neko-mancer 04-19-04, 07:03 PM	If Wizards wanted to keep sorcerors from spontaneously casting Quicken they would have just said "Quicken Spell cannot be combined with spontaneous casting" not create some complicated rule in order to do it without anyone noticing.
Teh Lurv 04-19-04, 07:10 PM	Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji At 20th level, the difference between having quicken and no quicken is this: Sorcerer: Wins initiative (assuming he wasted a valuable feat on Improved Initiative). Casts area Greater Dispel Magic to strip Wizard of his Spell Turning. Turn Ends. Wizard: Casts area Greater Dispel Magic to strip Sorcerer of his Spell Turning. Make a Knowledge (Spellcraft) DC 5 check as a free action to remember Sorcerers can't quicken spell, ever. Casts Quickened Bestow Curse to drop the Sorcerer down by 6 points of Charisma, making him loose tons of spell slots. Sorcerer: Runs. Your examples are all well and good, but that is not D&D. You are basing your argument on a 1 - 1 battle with an equal level Wizard. D&D is not about 1-1 videogame deathmatches with the other classes. A Sorcerer is part of a greater group working together againist foes. Your scenarios never happen in a typical campaign. That is why I don't see Quicken Spell of any importance to the Sorcerer. With or without the feat, the Sorcerer is still contributing to the party.
Teh Lurv 04-19-04, 07:15 PM	Originally posted by True Neko-mancer If Wizards wanted to keep sorcerors from spontaneously casting Quicken they would have just said "Quicken Spell cannot be combined with spontaneous casting" not create some complicated rule in order to do it without anyone noticing. :thumbsup: :teach: Some posters seem to have the Oliver Stone outlook that WotC is out to get the Sorcerer through guile and subterfuge.
Kyuketsukiouji 04-19-04, 07:16 PM	Originally posted by Teh Lurv Your examples are all well and good, but that is not D&D. You are basing your argument on a 1 - 1 battle with an equal level Wizard. D&D is not about 1-1 videogame deathmatches with the other classes. A Sorcerer is part of a greater group working together againist foes. Your scenarios never happen in a typical campaign. That is why I don't see Quicken Spell of any importance to the Sorcerer. With or without the feat, the Sorcerer is still contributing to the party. That's a hollow argument. It's like saying "It's perfectly normal for an elven fighter to loose against a half-orc fighter of the same level all the time, because it's a team game". The player of the elven fighter will feel pretty miserable after a few fights when he realises he's consistently outshined by the other guys in his team. Assuming he hasn't been killed by any half-orc fighters by then. Balance means characters of similar classes should be more or less equivalent in power at the same level. Twice the spells per round is far too much to be "more or less equivalent", not when all the sorcerer has over the wizard is 2 more spells per level (barring specilisation), and the wizard has 1 more feat per 4 levels. Spontaneous spellcasting is an advantage, but not that much of an advantage.
Teh Lurv 04-19-04, 08:30 PM	Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji That's a hollow argument. It's like saying "It's perfectly normal for an elven fighter to loose against a half-orc fighter of the same level all the time, because it's a team game". No it is not like saying "an elven fighter to loose against a half-orc fighter of the same level all the time". Those two equal lvls fighters both have a good chance of killing the other depending on how they roll. There is no reason why a half-orc will defeat an elf every single time. The examples you provide are strawmen you pushed over to support your weak argument. There are thousands of possible scenarios in a Sorc/Wiz battle. Some the Sorc will win, some the Wizard will win. Just showing me two examples (with some weak choices by the Sorc) as proof of your claims isn't going to sway me. Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji Balance means characters of similar classes should be more or less equivalent in power at the same level. Twice the spells per round is far too much to be "more or less equivalent", not when all the sorcerer has over the wizard is 2 more spells per level (barring specilisation), and the wizard has 1 more feat per 4 levels. Spontaneous spellcasting is an advantage, but not that much of an advantage. A fighter can't respond to a Wizard Forcecaging him. A Ranger is at a disadvantage when fighter a class whose race is not his favored enemy. Each class (IMHO) is balanced in regards to whether or not they will outshine other players in a group in usefullness during a campaign. I don't believe much thought was given to how well one class would stack againist the next in a 1 - 1 videogame fighter duel. That isn't the intention of the game nor how players play this game. Again, if Quicken is that strong a feat to unbalance classes that take it (Wizard, Cleric, Druid) then the responsible thing to do would be to nerf Quicken Spell, not simply let more classes have access to it. Doing that just starts the upward spiral of twinky power increases.
Kyuketsukiouji 04-19-04, 09:20 PM	Originally posted by Teh Lurv A fighter can't respond to a Wizard Forcecaging him. A Ranger is at a disadvantage when fighter a class whose race is not his favored enemy. Each class (IMHO) is balanced in regards to whether or not they will outshine other players in a group in usefullness during a campaign. I don't believe much thought was given to how well one class would stack againist the next in a 1 - 1 videogame fighter duel. That isn't the intention of the game nor how players play this game. Again, if Quicken is that strong a feat to unbalance classes that take it (Wizard, Cleric, Druid) then the responsible thing to do would be to nerf Quicken Spell, not simply let more classes have access to it. Doing that just starts the upward spiral of twinky power increases. First, a fighter has plenty of things he can do when he's forcecaged, starting by using his cape of the mountebank to get out of there. It's not because a fighter's main focus is using weapons that he can't learn a few other tricks by the time he's high enough a level to have a decent chance of surviving against anything that can use forcecage. Also note I said "similar classes" just so I wouldn't get Monk vs Bard examples of the sort. Second, If there are three classes that can use Quicken and two (or actually one, because, honestly, I don't think too many bards would bother that much with metamagic on top of everthing else they can pursue), then the problem isn't Quicken, it's the odd class out. It's not an "Upward spiral of twinky power increase" to say Sorcerers can use Quicken Rods. It's making sense.
Teh Lurv 04-19-04, 09:36 PM	Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji First, a fighter has plenty of things he can do when he's forcecaged, starting by using his cape of the mountebank to get out of there. It's not because a fighter's main focus is using weapons that he can't learn a few other tricks by the time he's high enough a level to have a decent chance of surviving against anything that can use forcecage. Also note I said "similar classes" just so I wouldn't get Monk vs Bard examples of the sort. Second, If there are three classes that can use Quicken and two (or actually one, because, honestly, I don't think too many bards would bother that much with metamagic on top of everthing else they can pursue), then the problem isn't Quicken, it's the odd class out. It's not an "Upward spiral of twinky power increase" to say Sorcerers can use Quicken Rods. It's making sense. Items are an X factor in this game and that is why I nevered refered to them in my previous examples. I'm sure there could be a case where the Fighter has a rod of epic cheese that lets him get out of every situation imaginable. My point is that there is nothing provided for in the class that allows him to respond to every situation effectively. Every class is designed under the assumption that there will be another member of the party around to help shore up on their weaknesses. If a Sorcerer is high level under your argument, then surely he has enough 'tricks' to handle a Wizard with Quicken with a decent chance, no? What good does giving another class access to an overpowered feat do? You are still not addressing the problem of the overpowered feat. All you are doing is adding to the problem. Finally, it is my not-so-humble opinion that the metamagic rods were a horrible addition to 3.5e, an example of the upward spiral of power.
Kyuketsukiouji 04-19-04, 09:49 PM	Originally posted by Teh Lurv If a Sorcerer is high level under your argument, then surely he has enough 'tricks' to handle a Wizard with Quicken with a decent chance, no? Run by me exactly what "tricks" you're talking about that a mage can't use on a sorcerer except "have more spells than him"?
Teh Lurv 04-19-04, 09:56 PM	Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji Run by me exactly what "tricks" you're talking about that a mage can't use on a sorcerer except "have more spells than him"? Oh I don't know, maybe some items from that shop where the Fighter bought the Cape of the Mounteback in your previous example? :smirk:
Kyuketsukiouji 04-19-04, 10:01 PM	Please. We both know that ultimately, the only thing a Sorcerer can do that a Wizard can't is cast 2 spells more per spell level (1 if the Wizard specialises). That doesn't give the Sorcerer any tricks that the Wizard can't use.
Teh Lurv 04-19-04, 10:08 PM	You keep forgetting about the part of a Sorcerer being able to cast spontaneously.
Kyuketsukiouji 04-19-04, 10:17 PM	How is casting spontaneously a trick? Wizard: "I cast fireball." Audience: ... *crickets chirping* Sorcerer: "I cast fireball....spontaneously!" Audience: "oooohhhhh!!" *applauds* Where's the trick?
BlaineTog 04-19-04, 10:23 PM	See this nail? See it's smashed head? Blame Kyuketsukiouji. ;) The sorcerer's spontaneaity is nice and all, but all it really amounts to is preparing his spells reeeaaaallly far in advance.
Teh Lurv 04-19-04, 10:41 PM	Originally posted by BlaineTog See this nail? See it's smashed head? Blame Kyuketsukiouji. ;) The sorcerer's spontaneaity is nice and all, but all it really amounts to is preparing his spells reeeaaaallly far in advance. Tell me you don't buy that. A Sorcerer has the advantage over the Wizard of knowing exactly what from her spell list she needs to cast at any given moment. The Sorcerer will never have the problem of not being able to cast one of her spells because it wasn't slotted in advance. And the question I have to ask you BlaineTog is if you have such a low opinion of spontaneous casting, why not just play a Wizard?
BlaineTog 04-19-04, 10:54 PM	Originally posted by Teh Lurv Tell me you don't buy that.Question: how *is* spontaneous casting different from preparing your spells when you level? It its base, thats all it really is. The only *real* advantage is that you can pick-and-choose how many of each to cast each day (which, again, the wizard can do with scrolls, wands, and staves. And *those* are completely valid magic items to include becasue they are both common and a class feature of the wizard). A Sorcerer has the advantage over the Wizard of knowing exactly what from her spell list she needs to cast at any given moment.Yes, but the wizard has the huge advantage of knowing as many spells as he wants. *And* he can change the spells he can cast daily. The Sorcerer will never have the problem of not being able to cast one of her spells because it wasn't slotted in advance.All the sorcerer has to worry about is not knowing the spell to begin with. Which is essentially incurable. And the question I have to ask you BlaineTog is if you have such a low opinion of spontaneous casting, why not just play a Wizard?A) :nonono: Very rude, sir. B) Because I don't like wizards, neither asthetically, flavorically, or mechanically. B) I don't think they are *that* bad, but they are noticiabely less powerful than the other primary casters. And their single trick isn't really all that unique since every spell they cast is identicle to the wizards'.