Another Monk Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another Monk Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elf_Boy
06-20-05, 04:13 AM A friend and I were just discussing rules one day and he asked, “Do haste and speed stack?”

I answered right away, “No,” flipping to the Haste spell and quoting, “‘This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed…’”

He then went on to say, “What about flurry of blows?”

I replied with, “What about it?”

We spent the next several moments in our fast paced lives examining Flurry of Blows only to come to the conclusion that in a flurry, a monk can’t use a speed weapon or be hasted to gain an additional attack at full BAB. I will argue my point quickly. Keep in mind that I don’t like this at all and won’t be using it in my game. I merely wish to know what others think about this and if they think it is just something that was overlooked. Who knows maybe its not suppose to stack.

Points ~

1) The ability Flurry of Blows says that the monk may make one extra attack in a round at highest BAB. Although this is at a -2 penalty, at 9th there isn’t one.

2) The Haste spell as well as the Speed weapon special ability both have: This effect is not cumulative with similar effects. The effect being: one extra attack with a weapon at highest BAB. Same as the flurry.

Now before I can be accused of rambling will someone please put in there two cents and argue against this. Thx.

P.S. arguments for it are welcomed to :)
hazel monday
06-20-05, 04:54 AM they don't need to stack. you get an extra attack regardless. so with a first level hasted monk you would have 3 attax at -2,-2,-2. you'd get the same effect if a first level character with 2 weapon fighting was hasted.
tiluvias99
06-20-05, 07:23 AM they stack. each grants additional extra attacks. they are not similar effects, even though they provide a similar benefit. Saying that FoB and Haste shouldn't stack because they are similar effects (in that they both provide extra attacks) is like saying that your dex bonus to AC doesn't stack with your armor bonus to AC because they are both similar effects (in that they both increase your AC). Similar effects and similar benefits are different. A similar effect to Haste would be an effect that magically increased your speed (such as the speed enhancement). Things from training, such as rapid shot or FoB, provide similar benefits but are completely different effects.
solbergb
06-20-05, 12:16 PM Monk speed bonus is an enhancement bonus to speed, so it doesn't stack with haste. It does however stack with every movement mode you have or acquire (a monk with a pearl of sirens swims REALLY fast, as do most polymorphed monks with respect to climb/fly/swim speed).

Monk flurry of blows is just another iterative attack progression, similar to multiattack, rapid shot or two weapon fighting (and in fact stacks with either or both of them according to the current faq)

Haste (and boots of speed and similar effects that grant extra attacks) are "effects" of an unspecified type that usually require an extra sentence saying "this doesn't stack with any other effect that grants an extra attack" in its description.

The key is that the various iterative progressions and their penalties are not an "extra attack". They're the normal attack for that mode, just as power attack give s penalty for more damage, but it is still normal for all purposes (including making you easier to disarm because of low attack roll, etc).

These progressions all have limits (monk weapons only, need multiple limbs, need an off-hand manufactured weapon that doesn't work in a grapple, must be a missile attack with primary-hand, most also add stackable minuses to hit, some have half strength applied, or cause tradeoffs with limbs used for two-handed power attack 2-1 vs 1-1 one-handed or natural weapons vs no power attack for light weapons etc)

The "extra attack" spells and items tack on an extra swing to ANY full attack progression that the character might have. It has no penalty, no built-in limits and sometimes even provides a bonus to hit. Because it is so open ended they're restricted so that only one such effect can apply to a character.
Elf_Boy
06-20-05, 12:35 PM *Slaps forhead* Indeed! This has been very helpful and I'm sure it will open me up mentaly in other aspects of the game.

Other than feeling kinda dumb, I am grateful for all the quick responses. Thanks a bunch.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elf_Boy 06-20-05, 04:13 AM	A friend and I were just discussing rules one day and he asked, “Do haste and speed stack?” I answered right away, “No,” flipping to the Haste spell and quoting, “‘This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed…’” He then went on to say, “What about flurry of blows?” I replied with, “What about it?” We spent the next several moments in our fast paced lives examining Flurry of Blows only to come to the conclusion that in a flurry, a monk can’t use a speed weapon or be hasted to gain an additional attack at full BAB. I will argue my point quickly. Keep in mind that I don’t like this at all and won’t be using it in my game. I merely wish to know what others think about this and if they think it is just something that was overlooked. Who knows maybe its not suppose to stack. Points ~ 1) The ability Flurry of Blows says that the monk may make one extra attack in a round at highest BAB. Although this is at a -2 penalty, at 9th there isn’t one. 2) The Haste spell as well as the Speed weapon special ability both have: This effect is not cumulative with similar effects. The effect being: one extra attack with a weapon at highest BAB. Same as the flurry. Now before I can be accused of rambling will someone please put in there two cents and argue against this. Thx. P.S. arguments for it are welcomed to :)
hazel monday 06-20-05, 04:54 AM	they don't need to stack. you get an extra attack regardless. so with a first level hasted monk you would have 3 attax at -2,-2,-2. you'd get the same effect if a first level character with 2 weapon fighting was hasted.
tiluvias99 06-20-05, 07:23 AM	they stack. each grants additional extra attacks. they are not similar effects, even though they provide a similar benefit. Saying that FoB and Haste shouldn't stack because they are similar effects (in that they both provide extra attacks) is like saying that your dex bonus to AC doesn't stack with your armor bonus to AC because they are both similar effects (in that they both increase your AC). Similar effects and similar benefits are different. A similar effect to Haste would be an effect that magically increased your speed (such as the speed enhancement). Things from training, such as rapid shot or FoB, provide similar benefits but are completely different effects.
solbergb 06-20-05, 12:16 PM	Monk speed bonus is an enhancement bonus to speed, so it doesn't stack with haste. It does however stack with every movement mode you have or acquire (a monk with a pearl of sirens swims REALLY fast, as do most polymorphed monks with respect to climb/fly/swim speed). Monk flurry of blows is just another iterative attack progression, similar to multiattack, rapid shot or two weapon fighting (and in fact stacks with either or both of them according to the current faq) Haste (and boots of speed and similar effects that grant extra attacks) are "effects" of an unspecified type that usually require an extra sentence saying "this doesn't stack with any other effect that grants an extra attack" in its description. The key is that the various iterative progressions and their penalties are not an "extra attack". They're the normal attack for that mode, just as power attack give s penalty for more damage, but it is still normal for all purposes (including making you easier to disarm because of low attack roll, etc). These progressions all have limits (monk weapons only, need multiple limbs, need an off-hand manufactured weapon that doesn't work in a grapple, must be a missile attack with primary-hand, most also add stackable minuses to hit, some have half strength applied, or cause tradeoffs with limbs used for two-handed power attack 2-1 vs 1-1 one-handed or natural weapons vs no power attack for light weapons etc) The "extra attack" spells and items tack on an extra swing to ANY full attack progression that the character might have. It has no penalty, no built-in limits and sometimes even provides a bonus to hit. Because it is so open ended they're restricted so that only one such effect can apply to a character.
Elf_Boy 06-20-05, 12:35 PM	Slaps forhead Indeed! This has been very helpful and I'm sure it will open me up mentaly in other aspects of the game. Other than feeling kinda dumb, I am grateful for all the quick responses. Thanks a bunch.