Another question about Shadowdancers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another question about Shadowdancers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cykotek
06-29-04, 08:55 PM Reading through the description of the summon shadow ability of the shadowdancer, I come across a rather unfortunately written sentence.

It follows the initial sentences that basically say "this ability lets you summon a shadow as a companion." The sentence that bothers me says "Every third level gained by the shadowdancer allows her to summon an additional shadow and adds +2HD (and the requisite base attack and saving throw bonus increases) to all her shadow companions. For example, a 9th level shadowdancer can have three shadow companions, each with 6HD."

Now, keep in mind, this is from the 3rd Ed DMG, not 3.5. The 3.5 version of this line reads "Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion."

My player contends that at level 3 of shadowdancer (which is the third level gained), he'll end up with a 5 HD shadow. He also backs this up with (in the 3rd ed DMG) one shadow companion is an additional companion when compared to having zero companions.

I say that, because of the wording earlier in the section, you start with one 3HD shadow, then get 2 5HD shadows at 6th, and 3 7HD shadows at 9th. The example doesn't help, either, since no matter how many times you add 2 to 3, you never get an even number.

And to head off the first, obvious answer, I know I'm the DM. I know that, in my game, my word is law. At the same time, I recognize my tendency to nerf something rather than risk allowing a potentially over-powered situation. I'm looking for people's interpretation of the intent of the class. And if possible, perhaps a developer might give me a hint here, also.
Epic Scotsman
06-29-04, 08:58 PM 2 added to 3 is 5. 5 is an odd number...
cykotek
06-29-04, 09:07 PM Yeah, sorry...that was me being stupid. I meant to say "no matter how often you add 2 to 3, you never get an even number." alternately, 6-2 is never odd.
shift244
06-29-04, 09:22 PM i would read it as you did:

the shadowdancer gains the ability at 3rd level. so s/he can summon one shadow with 3HD.

at 6th lvl, the summoned shadow now has 5HD. in 3.5, s/he still has only one shadow.

considering that the example in the DMG is a typographical error, 6HD is very likely a wrong key when attempting to hit 7HD, that gotten pass the editing. if you follow the progression 3rd=3HD, 6th=5HD, 9th=7HD, this is plausible.

the other suggested progression 3rd=5HD, 6th=7HD, 9th=9HD is much less plausible.

plus, if you're playing in 3.5, i also read it as you can never have more than 1 shadow companion, and it is something like a "special familiar".
cykotek
06-29-04, 09:30 PM The other way to read the example is a botched attempt to say "+6HD at 9th level". As for 3 vs 3.5, without aiming to start a version war, I'm running mostly 3ed, since I don't have and can't afford to buy 3.5 books anytime soon, and don't care *that* much about it.
KaLogain
06-30-04, 04:30 PM In this quote from the 3.5 DMG PrC descriptions for shadow dancer "Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion."

What are the "requisite base attack and base save bonus increases?" I just don't get how to get the answer.
cykotek
06-30-04, 05:49 PM The BAB and saves would come from the monster advancement sections of just about every monster book out there (Monster Manual, MM2, Fiend Folio, just to name a few). Basically, adding HD to monsters is sorta like leveling a PC. They get a better BAB, better saves, more skills and feats.
bitnine
06-30-04, 05:55 PM Originally posted by cykotek
The other way to read the example is a botched attempt to say "+6HD at 9th level".That's the way that I'd read it, certainly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cykotek 06-29-04, 08:55 PM	Reading through the description of the summon shadow ability of the shadowdancer, I come across a rather unfortunately written sentence. It follows the initial sentences that basically say "this ability lets you summon a shadow as a companion." The sentence that bothers me says "Every third level gained by the shadowdancer allows her to summon an additional shadow and adds +2HD (and the requisite base attack and saving throw bonus increases) to all her shadow companions. For example, a 9th level shadowdancer can have three shadow companions, each with 6HD." Now, keep in mind, this is from the 3rd Ed DMG, not 3.5. The 3.5 version of this line reads "Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion." My player contends that at level 3 of shadowdancer (which is the third level gained), he'll end up with a 5 HD shadow. He also backs this up with (in the 3rd ed DMG) one shadow companion is an additional companion when compared to having zero companions. I say that, because of the wording earlier in the section, you start with one 3HD shadow, then get 2 5HD shadows at 6th, and 3 7HD shadows at 9th. The example doesn't help, either, since no matter how many times you add 2 to 3, you never get an even number. And to head off the first, obvious answer, I know I'm the DM. I know that, in my game, my word is law. At the same time, I recognize my tendency to nerf something rather than risk allowing a potentially over-powered situation. I'm looking for people's interpretation of the intent of the class. And if possible, perhaps a developer might give me a hint here, also.
Epic Scotsman 06-29-04, 08:58 PM	2 added to 3 is 5. 5 is an odd number...
cykotek 06-29-04, 09:07 PM	Yeah, sorry...that was me being stupid. I meant to say "no matter how often you add 2 to 3, you never get an even number." alternately, 6-2 is never odd.
shift244 06-29-04, 09:22 PM	i would read it as you did: the shadowdancer gains the ability at 3rd level. so s/he can summon one shadow with 3HD. at 6th lvl, the summoned shadow now has 5HD. in 3.5, s/he still has only one shadow. considering that the example in the DMG is a typographical error, 6HD is very likely a wrong key when attempting to hit 7HD, that gotten pass the editing. if you follow the progression 3rd=3HD, 6th=5HD, 9th=7HD, this is plausible. the other suggested progression 3rd=5HD, 6th=7HD, 9th=9HD is much less plausible. plus, if you're playing in 3.5, i also read it as you can never have more than 1 shadow companion, and it is something like a "special familiar".
cykotek 06-29-04, 09:30 PM	The other way to read the example is a botched attempt to say "+6HD at 9th level". As for 3 vs 3.5, without aiming to start a version war, I'm running mostly 3ed, since I don't have and can't afford to buy 3.5 books anytime soon, and don't care that much about it.
KaLogain 06-30-04, 04:30 PM	In this quote from the 3.5 DMG PrC descriptions for shadow dancer "Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion." What are the "requisite base attack and base save bonus increases?" I just don't get how to get the answer.
cykotek 06-30-04, 05:49 PM	The BAB and saves would come from the monster advancement sections of just about every monster book out there (Monster Manual, MM2, Fiend Folio, just to name a few). Basically, adding HD to monsters is sorta like leveling a PC. They get a better BAB, better saves, more skills and feats.
bitnine 06-30-04, 05:55 PM	Originally posted by cykotek The other way to read the example is a botched attempt to say "+6HD at 9th level".That's the way that I'd read it, certainly.