Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Flamewarrior 11-16-06, 10:55 AM	Disclaimer: first, if you think full spellcasters are well-balanced with other classes, while you are entitled to your opinion, this thread just isn't for you - there are other threads where this discussed; here it is assumed they aren't, and I want to build from there. Also, if someone knows how to rename a thread, could you please enlighten me? People, I think most here agree that full spellcasters are overpowered (or that none but them and rogues is competitive in a high-level environment, with the possible exception of Tome of Battle classes); also, one of the major complaints is that while noncasters are supposed to have endurance, but it's also generally agreed that clerics, druids and wizards (at least) have what it takes to steal the spotlight in every one of the standard four daily encounters. I dare say part of it comes from the fact that the "spell level curve" flattens at high levels (to be clearer, high level folks have the same daily amount of high-level spells as they have of low-level ones, thus making time stop, for example, a standard tactic). Also, I happen to dislike tables (the easier I can deduce something from rational formulas, the better, and I don't think memorizing those tables is an option). So, an easy-to-calculate way to obtain daily spell slots, which I happen to hope diminishes casters' power, is: spell levels come at the usual [(spell level X 2) - 1] caster level, but the amount of slots for a given level is simply (caster level / spell level), so that the game game-reshaping spells gained from spell level 7 cap at 2 per level (6 of them in total). Another issue: I do know some spells are generally gamebreaking and unfair by themselves (gamebreaking - forcecage, gate; unfair - miracle, when the wizard, "master of magic", gets a worse deal). Those would have to be rewritten regardless to get closer to perfect balance (which, of course, doesn't exist), but some of them might be less threatening if used less. Also, I have been considering switching over to the Arcana Evolved spell list (at least a bit saner, I think), which would lead to the introduction of 10th-level spells, which'd cap at 2/day only at caster level 20. That, coupled with the removal of some caster levels from PrCs with full progression (you know, everything you had, plus more), could make a reason to stay single-classed. Finally, making this progression "standard" would gimp the sorcerer even more, but I always thought to do it justice, unique abilities are needed, and there are so many of them in these boards only that one'd need only to choose a favorite set. What do you think (thanks for the attention)? Daily slots by Caster Level1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 2 3 1 4 2 5 2 1 6 3 2 7 3 2 1 8 4 2 2 9 4 3 2 1 10 5 3 2 2 11 5 3 2 2 1 12 6 4 3 2 2 13 6 4 3 2 2 1 14 7 4 3 2 2 2 15 7 5 3 3 2 2 1 16 8 5 4 3 2 2 2 17 8 5 4 3 2 2 2 1 18 9 6 4 3 3 2 2 2 19 9 6 4 3 3 2 2 2 20 10 6 5 4 3 2 2 2Observation: if we had 10th-level spells, as per Arcana Evolved, the first slot would come at level 19, and the second at 20. Finally, about 0-level spells, I'm torn between making them unlimited (that could make cure minor wounds cease to exist) and considering them halves of 1st-level spells (thus peaking at 40/day).
Fox Reeveheart 11-16-06, 12:46 PM	LOL why would you want to gimp the sorcerer even more? He already has a harder life as it is. Wizards I can understand, but if anything sorcerers DONT need to be gimped. If you ever looked... Sorcerer's are a one trick horse. They are much weaker in comparison to a wizard. I love sorcerer's more but its from a flavor standpoint. Wizards get spells faster than sorcerers by a level. Wizards get like 4 metamagic feats for free! Wizards can learn any and all arcane spells basically. Sorcerers get more spells per day... but they're spell list is DRASTICALLY much much less than a wizard since they can only learn so many then thats it. So be glad they don't prepare ahead of time because that would make them TOO gimped. Sorcerers get simple weapons... but that doesnt serve too much difference except maybe you can shoot a crossbow, a decent weapon. Because of a tiny spell list available to learn, sorcerers find it much harder to specialize in any one thing unless the majority of their spells are of one type. sorcerers don't need to be gimped :( give them some love!
Elemental_Master 11-16-06, 03:59 PM	Wow this just went from a "Nerf Spellcaster" thread to the "Sorceror is gimped" thread.
js 11-16-06, 04:19 PM	It would be nice if wotc set up a separate forum so all the smart people can debate the ability of each class and how they would fix / nerf / tinker / empower or my personal favourite "swapping useless class features for good class features" :)
OneWinged4ngel 11-16-06, 06:59 PM	An invite forum or something like that for proven members would be pretty nifty.. I know some other forums that have that. But hey, they'll never do it here. But then again, there are other D&D forums.
DM Zoc 11-16-06, 07:10 PM	If you're saying that spellcasters get too many high-end spells at high levels, I have to agree; then again, I'm used to AD&D where a fighter or rogue simply couldn't stand up against that, so limiting spells was important. If you're saying that magic trumps fighter types, always, I'll have to disagree; wizard spells have been getting significantly less powerful in recent editions, to the extent that some people I know consider them to be unplayable in 3.5 (consider that a low-mid level 7th level caster will only have half a dozen truly useful combat spells per day, and saves are significantly easier to pump than save DCs; reduced durations make the "buff wizard" type significantly less useful as of late).
travellersside 11-16-06, 07:15 PM	:rolleyes: Yes. If only there was a forum where you could discuss classes & prestige classes and suggest changes. You could even post your own classes for others to criticise. They could call it... (I'm not feeling very imaginative tonight) The Classes and Prestige Classes Forum.
OneWinged4ngel 11-16-06, 07:25 PM	If you're saying that spellcasters get too many high-end spells at high levels, I have to agree; then again, I'm used to AD&D where a fighter or rogue simply couldn't stand up against that, so limiting spells was important. If you're saying that magic trumps fighter types, always, I'll have to disagree; wizard spells have been getting significantly less powerful in recent editions, to the extent that some people I know consider them to be unplayable in 3.5 (consider that a low-mid level 7th level caster will only have half a dozen truly useful combat spells per day, and saves are significantly easier to pump than save DCs; reduced durations make the "buff wizard" type significantly less useful as of late). If your players believe this, then they don't know how to play 3.5 (or at least casters in 3.5), clear and simple. Seriously. The full casters are, quite simply, the most powerful classes in the game. No contest at all, at least in core. They're good at low levels (if played right), and they speed ahead of everyone else at higher. And then you can actually *try* to optimize... and... Well, you know.
Manyfist 11-16-06, 11:02 PM	I get rid of the Wizard, Sorcerer, Druids, and Clerics in most my campaigns. Wizards = Erudite (Cpsi), Sorcerer = Psion (XPH), Clerics = Ardent (Divine Mind was never written, its a myth) (Ardent gains power through Philosphy) Druids = Wilder. It may not be perfect match, but they do work.
Vaelan 11-16-06, 11:23 PM	If your players believe this, then they don't know how to play 3.5 (or at least casters in 3.5), clear and simple. I would like you to provide some evidence to support this claim. Thanks.
Marix 11-17-06, 12:13 AM	If your players believe this, then they don't know how to play 3.5 (or at least casters in 3.5), clear and simple. Seriously. The full casters are, quite simply, the most powerful classes in the game. No contest at all, at least in core. They're good at low levels (if played right), and they speed ahead of everyone else at higher. And then you can actually *try* to optimize... and... Well, you know. :rant: I TAKE OFFENSE TO THIS QUOTE! :headexplo I have played a 3.5 sorcerer for two and a half years straight up level twenty-five, and my character could barely keep up with the 27th lvl Paladin/Fighter, or with the 22nd lvl Rogue/Cleric/Invis.Blade/Ranger, or with the 23rd lvl half fang dragon Hexblade/Reaping Mauler/Rogue/Fighter!:banghead: I played a generalist sorcerer, and believe me, it was a pain :banghead: :headexplo :censored: to select the right spells to make sure that about everything got covered, plus a real hassle to make sure the feats I selected had 85% optimum use, and you want to state that casters outstrip everybody else? :hoppingma THEN STOP POWERGAMING. :hoppingma plain and simple. The DM I have does his best to be as arbitrary as possible, and let me tell you, my character lost his fortune three times in that game, all because of bad luck. It had nothing to do with it being Monty Haul, or an S & G's kind of game. It was one of the roughest (yet the most fun) campaign I have ever gone through. And because of that experience, I will play a sorcerer again, because I really do know how that class works up to straight 20 and I'll do it again. So don't go assuming that people who read these boards have no clue as to what you are whining about, and get ahold of a DM that has a fair sense of right and wrong, and that he/she/it sticks to CORE material. Then you'll see that it's more balanced than you know.
js 11-17-06, 01:27 AM	:rolleyes: Yes. If only there was a forum where you could discuss classes & prestige classes and suggest changes. You could even post your own classes for others to criticise. They could call it... (I'm not feeling very imaginative tonight) The Classes and Prestige Classes Forum. I feel foolish, I though this forum was to talk about the classes. Stuff like I have a questions about a class or getting help with a class or sharing experiences about a particular class. Maybe WOTC should have a two forums one for that and another one for the endless debate about how people would fix the rules to make things balanced. Not to say that the latter is a bad thing, if people wish to discuss these things they should certainly do so, I just wish I didn't have to scroll thru so many of them. Hmm, I wonder if this is the first sign of board fatigue:(
Archangel62 11-17-06, 02:21 AM	If you're saying that spellcasters get too many high-end spells at high levels, I have to agree; then again, I'm used to AD&D where a fighter or rogue simply couldn't stand up against that, so limiting spells was important. If you're saying that magic trumps fighter types, always, I'll have to disagree; wizard spells have been getting significantly less powerful in recent editions, to the extent that some people I know consider them to be unplayable in 3.5 (consider that a low-mid level 7th level caster will only have half a dozen truly useful combat spells per day, and saves are significantly easier to pump than save DCs; reduced durations make the "buff wizard" type significantly less useful as of late). Admittedly this also has something to do with questions of how many books you use and how nasty your players are. There's the infinite wish trick for example which is a supremely popular one.
DM Zoc 11-17-06, 03:48 AM	If your players believe this, then they don't know how to play 3.5 (or at least casters in 3.5), clear and simple. Seriously. The full casters are, quite simply, the most powerful classes in the game. No contest at all, at least in core. They're good at low levels (if played right), and they speed ahead of everyone else at higher. And then you can actually *try* to optimize... and... Well, you know. It depends what you mean by low levels, but most of the games I've been in are level 5 or lower, where a fireball does damage on par with the raging barbarian. Also, I'd hope there's no complaint if I assert that the power gain of non-casters is significantly greater than the power gain of casters when moving from AD&D to 3.5; my players will wait until we play an old-school campaign if they want to wreak arcane havoc. Admittedly this also has something to do with questions of how many books you use and how nasty your players are. There's the infinite wish trick for example which is a supremely popular one.Infinite wish tricks don't work; rule zero is not a house rule, it only creates them.
Archangel62 11-17-06, 03:51 AM	Infinite wish tricks don't work; rule zero is not a house rule, it only creates them. Yes, the DM can alter things to get rid of tricks like that, but again, that is DM fiat and technical houseruling. I'm not saying that they can't or shouldn't, but the fact is that those tricks exist in core with the Rules as Written. By using this as a benchmark then nothing is over or underpowered because the DM can houserule it away, the Oberani Fallacy.
Just another user 11-17-06, 04:44 AM	Also, I'd hope there's no complaint if I assert that the power gain of non-casters is significantly greater than the power gain of casters when moving from AD&D to 3.5; my players will wait until we play an old-school campaign if they want to wreak arcane havoc. Care to elaborate? Because I totally disagree. The non caster ... well, there are only 4 non caster classes in 3.5, the 3.5 fighter is as powerful as the AD&D one (I speak of 2nd edition, the one I know) with the AD&D being probably a bit better, the rogue is more powerful than the thief even if he have lost the thief-only skills the monk and barbarian didn't exist in 2nd edition. The casters (if you followed the rules) had some serious limitation in 2nd edition from the more serious (memorizzation time and 1-hit point of damage and you can't cast for that round) to the more GM dependant (unusual material component for spell, strict gm control on which spells you can find and which items you can build, etc) that were either removed completely or nerfed beyond reason (casting defensively after 10th level is a formality). Plus they have generally more slots, creating magic items is easier and they have much more options that were impossible in previous edition (in 2nd edition not even the gods could cast two spells in one round, in 3.5 between quicken spell, class abilities, magic items and swift action spells is rapidly becoming the norm. So I disagree, if on arbitray scale 3.5 non casters are twice as powerful than the equivalent 2nd edition (and this increase in power is compensated by the increase in monster thoughness), 3.5 casters are at least 4 times more powerful, if not more. and, FWIW, I think they should bring back memorizzation time like in previous edition (even if not necessarily in that form), it wouldn't change the caster power in the short period but in longer adventure would give thema reason to use lower level spells over higher level ones. And making casting defensively a bit harder would be nice, too.
DM Zoc 11-17-06, 05:20 AM	The spellcaster deals the same damage in both editions (1d4+1 magic missile, 2d4 acid arrow, 10d6 fireball), while the fighter* jumps from dealing 1d8+7 with his +5 longsword in AD&D, to 1d8+4d6+20 or more (depending on how comfortable he is with power attack); both classes gain a large boost to HP from Con, since it is a secondary priority for both. * assuming core rules only, rolling a 15 for strength Again, maybe that's more noticeable at low levels, since that's mostly where I play; YMMV.
Just another user 11-17-06, 05:35 AM	The spellcaster deals the same damage in both editions (1d4+1 magic missile, 2d4 acid arrow, 10d6 fireball), while the fighter* jumps from dealing 1d8+7 with his +5 longsword in AD&D, to 1d8+4d6+20 or more (depending on how comfortable he is with power attack); both classes gain a large boost to HP from Con, since it is a secondary priority for both. * assuming core rules only, rolling a 15 for strength Again, maybe that's more noticeable at low levels, since that's mostly where I play; YMMV. From where it come that 4d6? :confused: And yes, at higher levels (10+) HP damage is not so important as opposed to save-or-die or even spells that give conditions, that is part of the reason fighter are considered underpowered, because dealing HP damage is the only thing they can do, IMHO.
Archangel62 11-17-06, 06:03 AM	In addition, the debuff spells are almost universally stronger than damage spells. Being able to deal 10 points of strength damage to someone is pretty damn big, same with stuff like the ray of entropy at higher levels.
JTalbain 11-17-06, 09:46 AM	Having played a wizard and watched the consternation of many other people playing wizards, I know exactly what the biggest drawback is to being a wizard: you often can't decide whether or not it's a good time to use your spells, even if you have the right one for the situation. Some spells are easy choices to use; When 5 trolls are clustered together where they can all be hit with your Maximized fireball, it makes a lot of sense to use it. However people seem to think that because the wizard can potentially have the answer to any situation, he will have the answer to any situation when it is necessary, unless he is out of spells entirely. Not only that, but the same damn people EXPECT it of you when YOU'RE playing the wizard. Example: I was talking to a guy at a game shop and he made the claim that when you had a wizard up to level 20, he could handle anything by himself and the fighter ends up just standing around. I gave him a sample situation: he's on a dungeon crawl with a standard level 20 party and he comes across a golem (didn't specify what, let's say iron) in a medium sized room (let's say 30' x 30'). What does he do? His answer was to shatter the door behind the golem, teleport the party through the door, then cast Wall of Force blocking the doorway. That's the kind of answer that pisses me off. First off, I don't think anyone who plays a wizard with any degree of proficiency will throw spells around like that. He used a 2nd level spell and 2 5th level spells, all of which are very good casts, to bypass an encounter which barely even gives the party XP! He also took 3 rounds to do so (unless some spells were quickened, making the slots used even more valuable), during which time the golem was probably pounding on the party. On top of that, he doesn't even know for sure it was bypassed. If the party has to go back that way (because for instance, the mage used his teleport to move the party 30 feet and doesn't have it available to exit the dungeon), he has to either fight the golem, in which case his first spells were really a huge waste, or he has to waste more magic getting away from it. But of course, the most infuriating thing about his answer was that it never occurred to him to just TELL THE FIGHTER TO DEAL WITH IT! Fighters feel no shame in telling the wizard to deal with it when they encounter a black pudding, why should the wizard automatically be afraid to ask the fighter for help? He then proceeds to relate another situation which shows how the wizard/sorceror owns. He boldly stated stat if the Cleric was dropped through damage but was still alive in combat, he could just step up and use Limited Wish for a Cure Critical Wounds to bring the Cleric back up and then the party has assured victory. I think I actually gagged at this moment of stupidity, especially because he was telling me how much fighters suck. I thought, "Wait a minute. If the Sorceror drops down to the Cleric to help him back up, it means he's not casting anything offensive this round. The Cleric won't be available to heal yet, and the Sorceror is now bringing himself likely within melee range of whatever just dropped the Cleric. Why isn't the creature just dropping the cleric again and then moving on to the now within range sorceror? Who killed it in the meantime? Certainly not the crappy FIGHTER!! Or maybe the mage is just going to become a greasy smear on the club of the giant. Who knows? I think it's the "I can do everything and take care of myself attitude" that bugs me the most about casters. Half the people saying that mages own everything at high level simply state that they have a Contingency Teleport that goes off in some situation. It doesn't seem to occur to them that A) They might very well be killed before the situation triggers, B) Teleporting away under some circumstances might be a bad idea, such as teleporting away from the party cleric to your sanctum when you've been reduced to negative hit points, or C) By setting such a Contingency, they are choosing to abandon their party in order to save their own ass. D&D is a team sport ladies and gentlemen. But so many wizard players think that they (or perhaps the cleric) are always relied upon for the answer to every situation, and the rest of the party can't do anything. They tend to overestimate their own potential and blow through spells they should be saving for later. And by the way, 4 encounters a day is NOT standard for all levels of D&D. One of the things you are supposed to take into account at higher levels of play are the higher endurances of the characters. Choosing to limit it to 4 encounters per day for 20th level characters is such a piddling amount that Wizards and Clerics can blow through their spells in copious amounts, because they'll hardly ever run out. Of course, everyone seems to be in a campaign where they can Rope Trick away and just rest after every encounter if they want to with absolutely no consequences. Do none of their adventures have time limits? Things like the bad guy escaping, some magical ritual to disrupt, or otherwise needing to reach some place before it is too late? On a side note between Fighters and Wizards, why is it people talk about the fighters poor will save like it is the be all end all answer to dealing with him? It's always said that the Fighter's all well and good until he gets dominated. What makes Wizards immune to this? I'd like to point out that the fighter has feats to burn; if he wants a good will save, he'll have it, particularly with new feats available. Just from PHBII he can take Endurance, Iron Will, Steadfast Determination, and Indomitable Soul. 4 feats out of the 18 (19 if human) he has available to him, and suddenly he has a better Will save than most Wizards and gets to roll twice. The Wizard can have a high wisdom and go for Will boosting feats too, but how many builds actually do? Wisdom's not really necessary for Wizards, but Con is never wasted on a Fighter. There are of course spells that can make up for this, like Mind Blank and such, which means almost every wizard player thinks they'll have it both available and active. Besides, if you're talking about Dominate Person, you can't ignore the presence of Feeblemind. Eats. Wizards. For. Breakfast.
DM Zoc 11-17-06, 02:09 PM	From where it come that 4d6? :confused: Elemental damage, standard for the +5 shocking flaming icy acidic keen longsword.
Flamewarrior 11-17-06, 02:50 PM	Hi, folks. Again, thanks for the attention. However, since I don't have a whole lotta time at the moment, I'll just say some things I felt were more readily needed. LOL why would you want to gimp the sorcerer even more? He already has a harder life as it is.I agree entirely with your opinion about the wizard being wholly inferior to the wizard, but I dare say I think my point about it, simply by virtue of being a full caster, is above mostly everything else, stands, so, yes, I'd gimp it as well as the wizard. But, I did plan to make them equal with the following: Finally, making this progression "standard" would gimp the sorcerer even more, but I always thought to do it justice, unique abilities are needed, and there are so many of them in these boards only that one'd need only to choose a favorite set.If you want some concrete example, I tell you I liked the one put up at www.wakinglands.com (Kolja Raven Liquette's site). With this bit said, I expect the discussion about balance between sorcerer and wizard to die; both have too many high-end spells (IMHO), and anyone can research a few unique abilities for sorecerers out there. If you're saying that magic trumps fighter types, always, I'll have to disagree ...If your players believe this, then they don't know how to play 3.5 (or at least casters in 3.5), clear and simple. Seriously. The full casters are, quite simply, the most powerful classes in the game. No contest at all, at least in core. They're good at low levels (if played right), and they speed ahead of everyone else at higher. And then you can actually *try* to optimize... and...I TAKE OFFENSE TO THIS QUOTE!Marix: please don't take offense, as I don't think that was the intention (and, let's all keep the discussion running). And - Zoc and OneWinged4ngel: I think the current D&D setup makes classes being balanced for casual players (by whom casters aren't what OneWinged4ngel would call "played right", and thus fail to dominate the game), and extreme min-maxers, for whom a, say, war hulk/hulking hurler could have a party role without being a whole party in itself, and where people know truly effective ways to situationally cripple spellcasters. The problem is: what the heck happens to people who do know D&D, but simply don't twink things from the inside out? Those are at a very serious risk of having games, well, derailed, by caster-players who have the slightest idea of what they're donig. (to all folks) Reason (IMHO): the fact that casters have too many high-end spells, for the given party levels. My idea meant to counter this. How do you think I did? P.S.: I know I'm not even close to addressing every important point here - pardon me for the lack of time.
DM Zoc 11-17-06, 04:51 PM	I guess it was kind of rude of me to not respond to the initial question, about your proposed rule change. Personally, I think it's awesome. The spellcasters will have less great spells per day than typical encounters, so there will be some reason to hold back in any encounter (while still giving the option to blast with some magic missiles or scorching rays). The only problem I can see is with sorcerers, who would need a slightly different formula to keep the less spells known vs. more spell slot balance.
Necropolitan 11-17-06, 04:57 PM	It's the truth as much as 'Fighters Suck'. What does it say when ONE class above all others, hell just one class type; that utterly outshines all others from the FIRST incarntion of it in 3.0 to the most recent 3.5 splat books, it's obvious what needs fixing here. The issue is though; Casters are powerful because of the spells, and you can't very well fix that unless you either edit, or ouright BAN certian spells that can be mixed and horridly abused. Yes I said ABUSED; because NO other class can twist and warp the RAW quite as well as Full-Casters can. Of course; I doubt you'll make much headway with this. People love their Wizards.
Marix 11-17-06, 05:04 PM	And their sorcerers.
John05 11-17-06, 05:08 PM	DMs love their nerf-sticks. :rolleyes: I like the threads that try to help weaker PCs or classes in general. Ones that complain about classes or PCs being overpowered generally introduce heavy-handed campaign tactics--"Mystra bans all magic! LOL!"--or outright banning and nerfing of the class to the point where no one wants to play the class anymore. One allows for more freedom for the player, the other doesn't. It's fair enough I guess, since the more freedom the players have, the more work the DM has to do. ~John
Aryxbez 11-17-06, 06:58 PM	Flame warrior, I would like to see a progression of it level by level 1-20
Flamewarrior 11-17-06, 07:19 PM	Let's see what I didn't answer to ... It would be nice if wotc set up a separate forum so all the smart people can debate the ability of each class and how they would fix / nerf / tinker / empower or my personal favourite "swapping useless class features for good class features"An invite forum or something like that for proven members would be pretty nifty.. I know some other forums that have that. But hey, they'll never do it here. But then again, there are other D&D forums.Yes. If only there was a forum where you could discuss classes & prestige classes and suggest changes. You could even post your own classes for others to criticise. They could call it... (I'm not feeling very imaginative tonight) The Classes and Prestige Classes Forum.If it was an invitation-only board, it'd be something new (at least in my limited experience with RPG forums). Angel (if you don't mind): do you know some RPG forum like this? If yes (and you're member of one), could you ... well, you know? I get rid of the Wizard, Sorcerer, Druids, and Clerics in most my campaigns. Wizards = Erudite (Cpsi), Sorcerer = Psion (XPH), Clerics = Ardent (Divine Mind was never written, its a myth) (Ardent gains power through Philosphy) Druids = Wilder. It may not be perfect match, but they do work.I agree that psionics is, in general, less gamebreaking than magic, and commend you by making it work, but I've been repeatedly told that the magic slot system is easier to use (I disagree entirely, and, yes, I'm a regular psionics-user - in-game, of course); besides, we know there are things that simply cannot be done without psionics, so I still look for something able to keep magic into business. and get ahold of a DM that has a fair sense of right and wrong, and that he/she/it sticks to CORE material. Then you'll see that it's more balanced than you know.A beginning DM doesn't necessarily have a sense of right and wrong regarding D&D balance, and the restriction to core material shouldn't be mandatory; by extnsion, things should still be balanced when noncore options are added - that's why divine casters are a problem: if a new feat arises, you don't necessarily have a spare slot for it; same for spontaneous casters; wizards, at least, find a limited amount of spells, but clerics and druids (in truth, this problem doesn't exist with the few spontaneous divine casters) get everything put into shelves, thus breaching the requirement of continuous balance as options widen. I feel foolish, I though this forum was to talk about the classes. Stuff like I have a questions about a class or getting help with a class or sharing experiences about a particular class. Maybe WOTC should have a two forums one for that and another one for the endless debate about how people would fix the rules to make things balanced. Not to say that the latter is a bad thing, if people wish to discuss these things they should certainly do so, I just wish I didn't have to scroll thru so many of them. Hmm, I wonder if this is the first sign of board fatigue.It would be good to have a forum for changes and another for creations, since they're (in general) done for different purposes, but I think the fatigue is being suffered by the game, not by the boards (though that's not to say I'm quitting with D&D). JTalbain: my rebuttal to your entire post is: whenever you think you need a fighter, switch it with a wildshaped druid. Then, I think you'll see what's the fighter problem: it's far from impossible to ignore, unlike many other classes. I guess it was kind of rude of me to not respond to the initial question, about your proposed rule change. Personally, I think it's awesome. The spellcasters will have less great spells per day than typical encounters, so there will be some reason to hold back in any encounter (while still giving the option to blast with some magic missiles or scorching rays). The only problem I can see is with sorcerers, who would need a slightly different formula to keep the less spells known vs. more spell slot balance.No problem - people always get distracted, and you commented on something actually in focus at the moment; thanks for the compliment, and about sorcerers, I don't think having more spells per day is "their character"; if you want something unique, seriously, check The Waking Lands - and know there are still other ways to make it unique. The issue is though; Casters are powerful because of the spells, and you can't very well fix that unless you either edit, or ouright BAN certian spells that can be mixed and horridly abused. Yes I said ABUSED; because NO other class can twist and warp the RAW quite as well as Full-Casters can.I know; one of my thoughts was to use Arcana Evolved spells. Any opinion about it? I like the threads that try to help weaker PCs or classes in general. Ones that complain about classes or PCs being overpowered generally introduce heavy-handed campaign tactics--"Mystra bans all magic! LOL!"--or outright banning and nerfing of the class to the point where no one wants to play the class anymore.That may be the way things use to work, but, tell me: why wouldn't you want to use a wizard or Waking Lands sorcerer (I know I'm being repetitive, but that's the first example of well-designed sorcerer that comes to my mind), with only this reduction in daily spells? See you later! P.S.: again, I don't have time for the table. I'm very sorry, Aryxbez.
ecobos 11-17-06, 08:09 PM	If you think spellcasters are too powerful, then you need to consider that those spells can also help the fighter. The fighter can be hasted, enlarged, strenghtened, polymorphed, made acid,cold,fire-proof and evil-protected and immune to poisons. He/She can also benefit from magic-weapons, armors and shields and they can face almost any kind of enemy. They only have to fear rust-monsters. The key here is teamwork. I don't think you have to cap wizards, what you have to cap is selfish players that won't work with the team.
Necropolitan 11-17-06, 09:53 PM	If you think spellcasters are too powerful, then you need to consider that those spells can also help the fighter. The fighter can be hasted, enlarged, strenghtened, polymorphed, made acid,cold,fire-proof and evil-protected and immune to poisons. He/She can also benefit from magic-weapons, armors and shields and they can face almost any kind of enemy. They only have to fear rust-monsters. The key here is teamwork. I don't think you have to cap wizards, what you have to cap is selfish players that won't work with the team. Which are predominantly Wizards. AND HERE WE ARE BACK AGAIN. Circular Logic FTW.
John05 11-17-06, 10:15 PM	Which are predominantly Wizards. AND HERE WE ARE BACK AGAIN. Circular Logic FTW. Necropolitan, why do you think that selfish players are predominantly wizards? :confused: From what I've seen on other threads, it appears to be the casters who are the most generous. They don't seem to mind being told that they *have* to stick to the role of support. They don't mind dispelling debuffs, uncursing, raising, supporting allies. From what I've seen, wizards and artificers tended to be generous, crafting items for allies and not overcharging or anything. On the other hand, people who were arguing for non-spellcasters seem to make no effort in helping allies. They *assume* that allies would be crafting items for them (even though the DM would punish them for crafting :rolleyes: ). They *assume* that the party would be an *iconic party* and that any other party would be deviating from "The right way to play D&D". Their contribution? Swinging axes and hitting faces very well. :whatsthis Noncasters seem pretty selfish to me.
Krevon 11-17-06, 10:22 PM	How I nerf caster.....i use the training rule from DMG. I ban Natural Spell and DivinE Meta Magic
Necropolitan 11-17-06, 10:41 PM	Necropolitan, why do you think that selfish players are predominantly wizards? :confused: Quite simple. When a single class can function just perfectly fine on it's own. It attracts egotsitical shitheads that are as dysfucntional in a party sitution as a Half-Orcish Hooker. I've seen it happen all too many times; the mages and other casters split-off because they have ultimate rule over the other party members who end up depending on them; so everyone does it the mages way so they can help the live longer. It's not a rule by any means, but it's definitly a trend. From what I've seen on other threads, it appears to be the casters who are the most generous. They don't seem to mind being told that they *have* to stick to the role of support. Unless they think they can do it better themselves; or that their support means they have final authroity. Which most powerful players do. They don't mind dispelling debuffs, uncursing, raising, supporting allies. From what I've seen, wizards and artificers tended to be generous, crafting items for allies and not overcharging or anything. Sure. Who are these nice players your playing with again? Hell I've seen at least TEN people here say they make the party pay for the Material Cimponents to high-level buffs if they want them to be used ON THEM. Yeah. Friendly. On the other hand, people who were arguing for non-spellcasters seem to make no effort in helping allies. They *assume* that allies would be crafting items for them (even though the DM would punish them for crafting :rolleyes: ). They *assume* that the party would be an *iconic party* and that any other party would be deviating from "The right way to play D&D". I've noticed the exact OPPOSITE in the non-caster crowd, actually. Right here on these boards. Their contribution? Swinging axes and hitting faces very well. :whatsthis And putting a 150 HP Meat-Buffer between their candy asses and that ******-off Minotaur Barbarian. Noncasters seem pretty selfish to me. Yeah. Because we can't obliterate a city with a wave of our hand; we want fairness.
Krevon 11-17-06, 11:23 PM	With all do respect....you can obliterate a population with many many many many swings of a weapon :D
Necropolitan 11-17-06, 11:31 PM	With all do respect....you can obliterate a population with many many many many swings of a weapon :D We are fighters and rangers - not Jason Vorhees.
Krevon 11-17-06, 11:34 PM	We are fighters and rangers - not Jason Vorhees. Thats friggin awsome......the PrC Ravenger would do it though. Ooothe cleric version of Jason dominating your cleric to do that. *sqeual*
John05 11-18-06, 12:14 AM	Quite simple. When a single class can function just perfectly fine on it's own. It attracts egotsitical shitheads that are as dysfucntional in a party sitution as a Half-Orcish Hooker. :eek: I think you're taking this discussion too personally. :nonono: I've seen it happen all too many times; the mages and other casters split-off because they have ultimate rule over the other party members who end up depending on them; so everyone does it the mages way so they can help the live longer. It's not a rule by any means, but it's definitly a trend. I don't see the trend. Might you be taking the Pure Fighters Suck thread too personally. I can kinda see why though, I mean, for those kind of discussions, to maintain the illusion of objectivity they needed to seem as impersonal as possible. Was that what was bothering you? :confused: Unless they think they can do it better themselves; or that their support means they have final authroity. Which most powerful players do. I don't know... The people who claim to play casters intelligently seem to be pretty intelligent themselves. While a smart person *could* decide to do everything himself, he probably won't. I've noticed the exact OPPOSITE in the non-caster crowd, actually. Right here on these boards. Clearly, you missed a lot, or are in denial. The very crux of the argument keeping pro-fighters alive in that humongous 120+ page thread was the assumption that the party was an iconic one, with all bases covered. The *luxury* of having a meatshield was just that, a luxury, described by pro-fighters themselves. Thus, any short-comings of the fighter were *assumed* to be handled by the rest of the party. And putting a 150 HP Meat-Buffer between their candy asses and that ******-off Minotaur Barbarian. Strong words, but very little content. You're inviting more arguments, but really this doesn't say anything. The very line of thinking this represents is entirely 1-dimensional... (Quite literally so, since we're talking about a mundane minotaur who's limited to a single direction of movement. :P ) Yeah. Because we can't obliterate a city with a wave of our hand; we want fairness. Oh no. I do think casters are fairly powerful. I just find it odd that you're admitting so now even after such a long argument that suggested the exact opposite. Weren't you also the one who was arguing that it depends entirely on environment and gaming group? Seems contradictory, no? Sure. Who are these nice players your playing with again? Hell I've seen at least TEN people here say they make the party pay for the Material Cimponents to high-level buffs if they want them to be used ON THEM. Yeah. Friendly. Name those *ten* people. I've seen far more than *ten* people... laugh at their caster allies (when they are begging in the streets), refusing to lend gold for lost spellbooks (stolen by caster-hating DMs), go off hunting *random* legendary animals for XP (on their own so their allies can't "leech" their XP), and complain and whine that the DM isn't "doing his job" nerfing everyone and anyone who dares to upstage the "perfectly balanced" fighter. I think you are making unfair assumptions about people just because of the bad impression you got from the Fighters Suck thread. I understand that you're bitter about that thread judging the emotion you and a few others exhibited there, but you should understand that the people were, at the time, trying to be objective as possible. I'm sure in a real game, friends wouldn't care if one guy is weaker/less-useful than another. In fact, in my own gaming group, the DM banned all Polymorph spells (including Shapechange) and even Alter Self. He also houseruled it so that calling spells like Gate and Planar binding work on ECL not HD. He changed some other things too. I don't mind because I understand that casters ARE very powerful. That doesn't mean I'll lie and say that everything IS balanced and use my own group's *houserules* as evidence for why they are. Just because people disagree with you, doesn't mean they are selfish munchkins. :mad: ~John
Flamewarrior 11-18-06, 03:40 PM	I included the slot-per-day table in the first post. Also: so far, I've only received one actual answer about my idea. While I'd take part in the threads that actually are meant to argue about class balance if I had the time for it (my postcount is ridiculous for my membership time, in the case anyone cares), this thread isn't one of them; I'm assuming full casters need to be nerfed, and asking what do you think my idea would change (if it's overnerfing, not really effective, et caetera). There already are plenty of threads about whether or not balance goes well in D&D, and you could be at one of them (as I said, I'd even be there too if I could, but here isn't for it). So, please, give me your opinions about the subject. John05: after all, why'd you cease to want to play a full caster if it was like I propose? That could make a very valid point against my present idea, and maybe shape something better.
Armoured Priest 11-18-06, 05:39 PM	Your ideas look fine to me, just know that sometimes, something that looks good just looking at it ends up not working, or breaking something you hadn't anticipated. As long as you and your group are flexible, and allow for after-the-fact changes (fixes) to be made after the fact, and you remain vigilant against potential problems (not that I'm really forseeing any) your campaign should be fine. IMHO, the countless recollections of experiences on these boards, not to mention my own experiences, have led me to believe that the core d20 system that D&D is based upon (as well as the end result of Dungeons & Dragons specific dice and math mechanics) is exceptionally flexible, and stands up well to outside tinkering, without unravelling. The campaign I'm currently running is using several houserules specifically for experimenting with several ideas that my group has come up with (or has heard of) over the last 6 years. For one, I merged all of the prep casters with their spontaneous equivalents so that all casters in this campaign are spontaneous (there are campaign reasons for this, that I don't want to get into here). However, I also implimented a rule (again as part of campaign background) that "due to the greater amount of will power needed to cast these spells, all spells level 7, and higher take 1+d6 rounds to cast (there are two feats which exist which can drop the casting time to 1+d4, and then 1+d2. I also got rid of 1 round casting times). As a further example, I also implimented a new skill point system where basically you get just your base class skill points, but you also get 1/2 your ability modifier in each stat as skill points, that can only be spent for skills using that stat. So a wizard with the following (28pt) array: Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 12 Chr 10 would gain his standard 2 skill points as general skill piont to be placed anywhere, 0 skill points to used for STR skills, 1 skill point to be used in Dex based skills, 1 SP to be used in CON based skills (I did expand the list for allowed CON skills), 1.5 SP for INT based skills (yes I'm using .5 skill points), 0.5 SP for WIS based skills, and 0 for WIS based skills. If this wizard wanted to but a STR skill because of his -1 stat modifier, he would have to spend an additional 0.5 SP to buy it (so yes negative modifiers can hurt you in this system). This system is supposed to simulate the fact that people can have a myriad of talents without specifically needing to be a intellectual paragon. I'm still testing, but really, it hasn't broken anything yet, so I'm pretty happy so far. That is, ultimately, my point: With an attentive DM, D&D is remarkably resilient. So again to the OP, yeah looks like it should work fine, so long as you do indeed give sorcs some abilities to make up for the lack of stuff on their specail abilities chart, the strength of INT as a prime casting stat for wizards, and the wizards bonus feats, you'll be fine. One question though...do clerics still get their domain spell above and beyond the spell progression you propose? If they do, then I see no problem, If it gets included into their normal progression, you might want to consider allowing them to spontaneous drop the domain spell for cures like their normal spells otherwise you run the risk of overnerfing the cleric's ability to do one of his major jobs...namely healing.
Flamewarrior 11-18-06, 07:17 PM	Armoured Priest: my plan was (I forgot to say this, sorry) for everyone to cast whatever the heck ended in their spell lists spontaneously; of course, this will change the relative utility of some classes (almost every case of prepared vs. spontaneous casting), and would have to be corrected through new abilities (so, the cleric would put their domains in their normal spell list). By the way, I use houseruled classes, where almost every non-full caster gains new abilities - other example would be a base class assassin, which shamelessly has full BAB and sneak attack peaking at +10d6. So, I do think spontaneous-casting clerics can, with the reduction of high-level slots, are a problem no more. And yes, I'm prepared for post-test changing.
Archangel62 11-19-06, 02:05 AM	Sure. Who are these nice players your playing with again? Hell I've seen at least TEN people here say they make the party pay for the Material Cimponents to high-level buffs if they want them to be used ON THEM. Yeah. Friendly. Slight point, in most of my games the group agrees to provide the cleric with the resources to do the buffs and rezzing. The reason is quite simple WE LIKE LIVING. It's not seen as an imposition. Different example, in a game I was in I was an artificer, the rest of the party was cleric, rogue, barbarian, monk/rogue, and evoker. The evoker was placing fireballs badly and was mangling the melee guys, I wasn't melee but due to a badly placed fireball I got smoked during a fight. The DM was also a psycho with what was thrown at us, the cleric finally told us that unless we started chipping into the ressurection fund that was it. He tallied up a total bill for us and told us each what we owed. I paid off the debt with some gear for the cleric (I hadn't realized how far behind he was us in gear until I actualyl got a look at what his stuff was.) The rogue fenced some diamonds, the barbarian made a deal with me to pay off his debt and the last two refused. A few weeks later they got wiped during a mass rush. Cleric told them that he was keeping his policy so no ressurection for them. And oy the kvetching...
Szatany 11-19-06, 07:19 PM	Also, I happen to dislike tables (the easier I can deduce something from rational formulas, the better, and I don't think memorizing those tables is an option). So, an easy-to-calculate way to obtain daily spell slots, which I happen to hope diminishes casters' power, is: spell levels come at the usual [(spell level X 2) - 1] caster level, but the amount of slots for a given level is simply (caster level / spell level), so that the game game-reshaping spells gained from spell level 7 cap at 2 per level (6 of them in total). What do you think (thanks for the attention)? Didn't have time to read thread fully so I don't know if this was adressed, but for sorcerers, instead of standard formula of caster level/spell level = slots per day how about caster level x1.5 / spell level = slots per day (rounded up). Table would then look like this: Daily slots by Caster Level1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 2 3 5 3 6 3 8 4 3 9 5 3 11 6 4 3 12 6 4 3 14 7 5 4 3 15 8 5 4 3 17 9 6 5 4 3 18 9 6 5 4 3 20 10 7 5 4 4 3 21 11 7 6 5 4 3 23 12 8 6 5 4 4 3 24 12 8 6 5 4 4 3 26 13 9 7 6 5 4 4 3 27 14 9 7 6 5 4 4 3 29 15 10 8 6 5 5 4 4 30 15 10 8 6 5 5 4 4 If you'd rather round down, sorcerers will have 1 slot less in most places, especially at higher levels.
Flamewarrior 11-20-06, 09:33 AM	Yeah, I'd rather round it down; but I don't really think more spells per day is something specific to the sorcerer - I'd rather have something unique than a larger spell output; anyway, that is a good way to keep the relative balance between sorcerers and wizards. Thanks, Szatany. P.S.: what do you think about the 0-level spells?
okpokalypse 11-20-06, 11:11 AM	I'm going to just reply to a lot of points: 0-Level Spells (FlameWarrior) - Because stats don't affect 0-level spells, I often have allowed a PC to use their outright Primary State Bonus to amplify it. So if a Favored Soul has a 20 Charisma, they get +5 0-Level Spells. I also allow all 0-levels spells to be cast without needing to be memorized - regardless of class. Daily Slot Reduction (FlameWarrior) - I don't agree with it. In any games I play, most PCs are often annoyed that castable spells per level caps at 4 for non-spontaneous casters, and 6 for spontaneous (not including domain, school or stat bonus spells). My L20 Favored Soul has 8 L9 Spells and 10 L1 Spells. That's just silly. I think it would be better if fewer high-level spells were granted, but the lower-level spells were more plentiful. I liked DnD 2nd Edition where they went up to 9 per level before Stat Bonuses. On Pure Fighters - Yes, they aren't great at high levels. But that's what PrCs are for. With all the feats, added with good magical weapons and items, as well as a buffer in the party - they may be one of the 3 best overall "party worth" progressions. Overwhelming Power v. Staying Power - It used to be the typical Argument was that Fighters never got tired. Mage's wore out and had to rest/memorize. Unless you're aware of what lies ahead, chances are your Mage isn't going to be carrying the exact spells you need for any given encounter. Chances are they have 1 spells of each damage type memorized at varying levels, and a bunch of utility beyond that. In campaigns where 3-4 combats a day occurred, Mage's had to be real careful not to burn all their spells on 1 combat. A fighter on the other hand just keeps hacking away for 20 - 50 damage a shot (depending on gear and buffs). You give em the right buffs (Righteous Wrath, Blessing of the Righteous, Enlarge Person and Spell Resistance) and they're doing 150+ Damage a round. Heck, have you ever seen a Dual-Wielding Dervish with a pair of Dual-Bursting Weapons and good Buffs? How do you like the idea of 15 Attacks (Thousand Cuts) at 2d6 + 16 + 1d6 (Energy) + 1d6 (Energy) W/ a Crit of 15-20/x2 that does an additional d10 + d10 Energy Damage from the Bursts? It's Sick. Even if they only land 10 of the 15 attacks, that's ~300 Damage w/o Crits. If 2 of those attacks Crit, that's about another ~70 Damage on top of that. And that's without Power-Attacks added in for moderate AC opponents. Granted Thousand Cuts is 1/day. Usually the they get off 7attacks a round, but the potential to be a meat-grinder is there. Normally they're still doing about 150+ Damage a round on Average at L20 - and that never runs out. The argument can be made now though, that with the Complete Mage and it's Reserve Feats, that caster's can blast all day too. Look at Acidic Splatter. If a Wizard were to put any Acid spell into a 9th level slot and just be content to never use it, he's got infinite 9d6 Acid Orbs as a Spell-Like ability at 45' Range and No Save / No SR. The issue with considering this staying power though is simply that the 30 Damage a round at short range provided by reserving a 9th level spell is not even close to on par with Fighter attacks. It's not the equivalent to 1 attack really. And a Rapid Shot Archer with Buffs and a good bow is doing 25+ a shot with range increments of 100'+ for about 150 Damage a round (potentially).
okpokalypse 11-20-06, 11:16 AM	Dominant Classes - A Wizard at L20 is rediculous ever since good damaging spells with no Save, no SR have been added (Melf's Unicorn Arrow - untyped Damage) - I won't argue that. A Wizard who takes "Arcane Thesis" on this spell and has a MetaMagic Rod of Quicken can cast two Maximized Empowered Melf's Unicorn Arrows a round which do 120 Damage each, no Save, no SR, no DR. And it's got great range. If they've learned/memorized the Celerity spell they can do 3 a round (provided they've got a Lorecalling Cleric next to them to remove the daze after-effect). Yes, in that case, a Wizard can pump out 360 Damage a round. Other archetypes are hard pressed to do this, but there ARE some. The Psychic Warrior is the best Melee'r out there, IMO - and they can do what they do in multiple ways. Here's one way: Monkey Grip + Expansion = Huge-Sized Weapon Damage. They regain HP with every hit with the Vampiric powers. They can buff Attack and Damage with Insight Bonuses. They can channel Energy attacks (Expand Knowledge) as a full caster-level equivalent. They can heal themselves. I've played with a PsyWarr (w/ WarMind PrC) who with each attack was doing a rediculous 6d8 +34 +1d6(Mental) +1d6(Sonic) (The Weapon was named "Mind-Shriek") w/ a 17-20/x2 Critical Range. 5 Attacks (Buffed Righteous Wrath of the Faithful) -if they all hit - doing on average 68 each, total for ~340 Damage. And he got back half the 6d8 Damage as Healing with every hit. Oh yeah, and had DR 15 / -. He could also choose to ignore armor and make 1 attack per round as a Melee Touch Attack with full Power Attack on... Would do something like 6d8 +70 +1d6(Mental) +1d6(Sonic). ~104 Damage againt Touch Melee. And what's worse is that the WarMind PrC gets "Sweeping Strike" which allows simultaneous attacks of adjacent targets with each melee attack. And they both can spawn cleaves (but not at the same time) - which makes it a giant meat-grinder. And they can choose to do an additional 10d6 Damage on one attack per day (Chain of overwhelming force). AND with Expand Knowledge they can take a powers like Energy Missile, Energy Ball or Energy Cone - which are ranged powers that do Level d6 Damage (or more) of an Energy Type to be determined when manifested. He's dropped a Balor Demon in 1 Round of Combat (His Powers were already manifest). He's Crit'd a Wyrm Blue Dragon using Deep Strike (Melee Touch) and Overwhelming Force (+10d6) and did 298 Damage. The Dragon tried to flee airborne and on his AOO he Crit'd Again and did another 224 - killing it. Yes, a 2-shot kill on a CR 23 creature. Another Version of the PsyWarr is the Githerzai Monk/PsyWarr. I've seen these get ACs up around 80, and have saves in 30+ range. Using Claw / Bite Attacks & Expansion they can do as much as 8d6 + Bonuses. They don't do as much raw damage as the latter example, but they are much more durable as they're nearly impossible to hit/affect (> 40 Touch AC & Evasion / Mettle if the right progression is done). This is what I call my Mage-Killer (though it works against any caster class).
Nakat 11-20-06, 11:50 AM	Example: I was talking to a guy at a game shop and he made the claim that when you had a wizard up to level 20, he could handle anything by himself and the fighter ends up just standing around. I gave him a sample situation: he's on a dungeon crawl with a standard level 20 party and he comes across a golem (didn't specify what, let's say iron) in a medium sized room (let's say 30' x 30'). What does he do? His answer was to shatter the door behind the golem, teleport the party through the door, then cast Wall of Force blocking the doorway. Ok, first off, you were talking to me. I don't normally care what people say on forums, but I just want to set the record straight a little bit. One, this discussion arose from me saying that a wizard is by nature a more powerful, versitile class than a fighter. Before that, it was that a fighter as a class was not as versitile (i.e. useful in as many varieties of situations) as really any other class. I stand by that. That's the kind of answer that pisses me off. First off, I don't think anyone who plays a wizard with any degree of proficiency will throw spells around like that. He used a 2nd level spell and 2 5th level spells, all of which are very good casts, to bypass an encounter which barely even gives the party XP! He also took 3 rounds to do so (unless some spells were quickened, making the slots used even more valuable), during which time the golem was probably pounding on the party. On top of that, he doesn't even know for sure it was bypassed. If the party has to go back that way (because for instance, the mage used his teleport to move the party 30 feet and doesn't have it available to exit the dungeon), he has to either fight the golem, in which case his first spells were really a huge waste, or he has to waste more magic getting away from it. Just another small little addendum here, but again, you presented the situation to me as a logic puzzle to be solved by the wizard. I agrued this, then you explained to me that the party could have taken it, which is entirely true, but was not, however, part of the equation, thus i left it out of my initial assesment. There are many other things and combinations of spells that could have been used in this situation that were not, as I was simply speaking off the top of my head in a casual conversation and mental exercise. But of course, the most infuriating thing about his answer was that it never occurred to him to just TELL THE FIGHTER TO DEAL WITH IT! Fighters feel no shame in telling the wizard to deal with it when they encounter a black pudding, why should the wizard automatically be afraid to ask the fighter for help? Again, no offense, but I feel the need to point out that that wasn't a part of the puzzle presented. You challenged me to point out what was possible for a wizard to accomplish that was as versitile as any other member of the party. I was simply backing up my point of view. In reality I would be happy to just sit that one out or provide backup to the melee damage dealers of the party as they bash the thing. Also, and this is just me, but you seem to be assuming something did not occur to me when in fact we brought it up and I gave you the same answer in person as I am here. Just sayin. He then proceeds to relate another situation which shows how the wizard/sorceror owns. He boldly stated stat if the Cleric was dropped through damage but was still alive in combat, he could just step up and use Limited Wish for a Cure Critical Wounds to bring the Cleric back up and then the party has assured victory. I think I actually gagged at this moment of stupidity, especially because he was telling me how much fighters suck. I thought, "Wait a minute. If the Sorceror drops down to the Cleric to help him back up, it means he's not casting anything offensive this round. The Cleric won't be available to heal yet, and the Sorceror is now bringing himself likely within melee range of whatever just dropped the Cleric. Why isn't the creature just dropping the cleric again and then moving on to the now within range sorceror? Who killed it in the meantime? Certainly not the crappy FIGHTER!! Or maybe the mage is just going to become a greasy smear on the club of the giant. Who knows? Wow, you are really irritated by me pointing out the interesting variety of spell options presented in the rules for arcane magic, or magic period for that matter. If you have to be angry, go ahead I suppose, though I would appreciate it if you didn't imply I was stupid for going along with your initial assertation and attempting a rational discussion in what I thought was a friendly environment. I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post, as it seems to have at this point degenerated into offensive towards me. I will say however, should you still be interested or reading at all at this point, that I play DnD to roleplay, not to powergame. We entered into a conversation in which you immediatly began to point out CO options for a fighter, and I was simply playing along and pointing out that with far less optimization casters can accomplish more, which I felt, if you recall, was a weak point in the system. I also stated it was always a problem in DnD, from the time I began playing in AD&D till now, though I like this system far better. I also primarily play non-casters in most parties, because I like the flavor I can put into them more. I also was talking about how I adored ToB:Bo9S, because it gave melee fighters so many more things to do in combat, and the very versitiility that you yourself agreed with me that they were lacking in many roles in the adventure, at least mechanically (roleplaying is and always has been a different story). You even admitted that you had not yet read the book, which I still attest is an excellent addition to the game, and well worth taking a look at. I am quite sorry I offended you, but your response in a public forum is quite rude in and of itself. I do wish that you had simply said to me that you found my responses un-thought out while we were speaking, as I would have been interested at the time to know why. Though, of course when your response is so obviously couched in anger and sarcasm rather than listening and attempting to see the discussion from both sides, then perhaps it was best that you did not feel the need to speak that way to my face. Thank you for that, as I had a perfectly fine evening without that. I'm sure I'll see you around the store, so later. Everyone else, sorry for hijacking the thread for a minute, but I felt like it was worth it. Carry on.
Armoured Priest 11-20-06, 07:45 PM	Armoured Priest: my plan was (I forgot to say this, sorry) for everyone to cast whatever the heck ended in their spell lists spontaneously; of course, this will change the relative utility of some classes (almost every case of prepared vs. spontaneous casting), and would have to be corrected through new abilities (so, the cleric would put their domains in their normal spell list). By the way, I use houseruled classes, where almost every non-full caster gains new abilities - other example would be a base class assassin, which shamelessly has full BAB and sneak attack peaking at +10d6. So, I do think spontaneous-casting clerics can, with the reduction of high-level slots, are a problem no more. And yes, I'm prepared for post-test changing. Oh...carry on then. I'd be interested in knowing how it turns out. I few more notes: I personally feel that the classes as written are reasonably well balanced (given an attentive DM, and reasonable players...we're looking at the fine line between reasonable optimization and outright powergaming. For example: I have no problem with a player using monkey grip to wield a Huge sized Trident with two hands (even casting enlarge on him is OK). It when the same player then makes said trident a Heavy, mercurial weapon while using 2 CRs when making his character a Grey Orc/Half-ogre. It comes down to where I, as DM, feel the line needs to be drawn. I don't doubt there are DMs out there who would be OK with this, and thats fine too...just not when I'm DMing) Also concerning 0 level spells: I see no reason not to allow them to be increased by a high stat, or even just in general. In my campaign all spellcasters can, at unmodified caster level 10, use 0 levels unlimited amounts per day. Full casters being the "Wizard", wizard and sorcerer merged, "Priest", Cleric and Favored Soul merged, "Druid", Druid and Spirit Shaman merged, Bard, Artificer (altered version of Eberron class), and Alchemist (Homebrew basically a merging of expert, and Adept from DMG. The reason I call them full casters, is because at every level their caster level increases by 1. Paladins, Rangers, and Hexblades are not full casters. They get both their own lists, and the full "Priest", "Druid", and "Arcane" lists respectively, and they use those charts, but only gain caster levels every even level, so they are 1/2 casters, so they wouldn't get to cast unlimited 0 levels spells till class level 20.
JTalbain 11-21-06, 06:11 PM	Ok, first off, you were talking to me. I don't normally care what people say on forums, but I just want to set the record straight a little bit. One, this discussion arose from me saying that a wizard is by nature a more powerful, versitile class than a fighter. Before that, it was that a fighter as a class was not as versitile (i.e. useful in as many varieties of situations) as really any other class. I stand by that. Just another small little addendum here, but again, you presented the situation to me as a logic puzzle to be solved by the wizard. I agrued this, then you explained to me that the party could have taken it, which is entirely true, but was not, however, part of the equation, thus i left it out of my initial assesment. There are many other things and combinations of spells that could have been used in this situation that were not, as I was simply speaking off the top of my head in a casual conversation and mental exercise. Again, no offense, but I feel the need to point out that that wasn't a part of the puzzle presented. You challenged me to point out what was possible for a wizard to accomplish that was as versitile as any other member of the party. I was simply backing up my point of view. In reality I would be happy to just sit that one out or provide backup to the melee damage dealers of the party as they bash the thing. Also, and this is just me, but you seem to be assuming something did not occur to me when in fact we brought it up and I gave you the same answer in person as I am here. Just sayin. Wow, you are really irritated by me pointing out the interesting variety of spell options presented in the rules for arcane magic, or magic period for that matter. If you have to be angry, go ahead I suppose, though I would appreciate it if you didn't imply I was stupid for going along with your initial assertation and attempting a rational discussion in what I thought was a friendly environment. I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post, as it seems to have at this point degenerated into offensive towards me. I will say however, should you still be interested or reading at all at this point, that I play DnD to roleplay, not to powergame. We entered into a conversation in which you immediatly began to point out CO options for a fighter, and I was simply playing along and pointing out that with far less optimization casters can accomplish more, which I felt, if you recall, was a weak point in the system. I also stated it was always a problem in DnD, from the time I began playing in AD&D till now, though I like this system far better. I also primarily play non-casters in most parties, because I like the flavor I can put into them more. I also was talking about how I adored ToB:Bo9S, because it gave melee fighters so many more things to do in combat, and the very versitiility that you yourself agreed with me that they were lacking in many roles in the adventure, at least mechanically (roleplaying is and always has been a different story). You even admitted that you had not yet read the book, which I still attest is an excellent addition to the game, and well worth taking a look at. I am quite sorry I offended you, but your response in a public forum is quite rude in and of itself. I do wish that you had simply said to me that you found my responses un-thought out while we were speaking, as I would have been interested at the time to know why. Though, of course when your response is so obviously couched in anger and sarcasm rather than listening and attempting to see the discussion from both sides, then perhaps it was best that you did not feel the need to speak that way to my face. Thank you for that, as I had a perfectly fine evening without that. I'm sure I'll see you around the store, so later. Everyone else, sorry for hijacking the thread for a minute, but I felt like it was worth it. Carry on. Actually the comment made after almost every single comment you made was "I win." Aside from the obvious point that you can't "win" a role playing game, every action you ever said for the casters seemed to imply you thought that it was an ultimate solution to the problem with no side effects. On top of that, you listed much more powerful variations on melee classes (As I recall you listed a Crusader18/DeepWarden-or-something2 build which was particularly heinous) and specifically said you thought it "finally brought melee classes up to par with the casters." In fact, you flat out stated that "Any buff made to the melee classes is alright, because it just brings them closer to what the casters can do." Sorry if you misunderstood that as a logic challenge of letting the wizard handle it, but that was actually kind of the point. I specifically said in them that "the party" comes around the corner in a dungeon, then I stated the situation and asked, "What do you do?" And as stated before, your answer was letting the wizard do everything. You also knew that the party was there, as you clearly stated that the wizard teleported the party to the other side of the door. A perfectly reasonable answer would have been to let the rest of the party deal with it, and in fact you agreed with me after that, of course, the party could do that. The point was you said the wizard could effectively and efficiently take over the roles of the other classes, invalidating the Fighter and Rogue, among other classes, and thus you couldn't take that way out. Doing so would have forced you to contradict yourself by stating the other classes could do it better. My point which I tried to make multiple times in our conversation was that the caster does not always have the right spell for the situation, which you flat-out refuted by saying that "the caster can do everything." Hence, leading to that challenge. Your mind was already geared toward the caster doing everything, so you answered accordingly. The point was not lost on my friend however, and we had a good mutual laugh after we left. Still though, my point stands. The wizard can do anything and everything assuming he knows the spells for it and knows it's coming. However, if you are assuming the wizard has every Sor/Wiz spell in the PHB at level 20, which you unequivocally stated every wizard will, first assume the spells are already readily available to purchase, then take a hefty 396,125 gold off of that wizard's 760,000 at level 20 (the cost to buy every spell they don't earn by levelling up), over half the gold available to a 20th level character, and that's without any backups, scrolls scribed, wands, or even the additional cost of scribing the spell into your spellbook. Try telling me that doesn't matter. As for knowing it's coming, you stated that "any smart wizard" upon entering the dungeon can basically tell the party everything that they need to do, the location of all keys, traps, etc. and magically mindread every relevant detail for the dungeon from its inhabitants. I would have responded to this, but it was so mindbogglingly ludicrous, I was at a loss for words to form a proper rebuttal. Detect Thoughts has a range of 60 ft, and is stopped by friggin 3 inches of dirt. The wizard would need to cast many many spells to gather the amount of information you stated. The necessary spells to gather it do not function through magical sensors. The only one that would grant you innate knowledge of bypassing traps or whatnot is Find the Path, which has its own limitations, doesn't account for creatures, and is instinctive knowledge rather than something you can sit and peruse at your leisure. Sorry for not raising the BS flag in our conversation, but I'm doing so now. Other assumptions of yours I did not refute: 1) Because wizards are smart, they are automatically going to know all weaknesses of creatures and what spells to use against them at high level. This is determined by knowledge skills, something the wizard has more access to than other classes but is by no means automatic. 2) The wizard always finds refuge in his own personal fortress every time he needs to sleep. Yeah, right. I did mention this before, and you basically countered with "Yes, he can." and used as your proof the existence of spells like Guards and Wards (speaking to me fairly insultingly I might add, acting as if I had never heard of that spell) as proof that he would. Sorry, this is proof that the wizard can create a very solid defensible fortress, not that he always has access to it. 3) The wizard always has time to back off and memorize the right spells for the day. First off, as I pointed out before with the costs for scrolls, you are assuming he even knows them. Second, I did address this issue before with our conversation, bringing up the concept of having a time limit for the quest. This was struck down by you as being an artificial limitation by the DM in order to limit casters. You indeed seemed to take particular offense at this point, saying that I could just "what if" all the caster's powers away. No offense, but what kind of crackhead GM runs for you? It's always nice to have a plan and a bit of leeway allowed for, but is every single game you play really run this way? Are none of your party's tasks urgent enough to warrant immediate attention? 4) The caster classes make a better fighter than the Fighter does, needing less effort to buff themselves than it takes to buff the fighter. I actually did address this point and bring it up just because of your post. If you recall, I actually claimed the exact opposite was true, saying that the Cleric would use much higher level metamagicked spells to buff himself, whereas the fighter would get a similar effect from a few low level spells, and because of his many bonus feats, would make much better use of the buffs. You also agreed with me that the fighter was not a damage beast, although I would like to retract that statement, pointing out that with the Weapon Focus tree and Weapon Mastery, the fighter has the same to-hit and damage bonuses a 20th level barbarian gets for raging, only he has them all the time. 5) The Barbarian, Rogue, and Ranger are better at fighting than the Fighter. The barbarian relies on damage dealing capability (which the fighter was shown in #4 to match) and durability (which can be copied with a fair amount of ease with items and buffs), both of which require him to be raging to use to full effect, and this has a limited number of uses a day. The Rogue typically has a crappy AC, the same number of bad saves as the fighter (only Fortitude comes into play more often in melee than Reflex saves), less durability (he can use the same buffs as the fighter, the barbarian is different because his DR doesn't stack), and has trouble hitting enemies reliably. The Ranger has fewer hit points, fewer feats, can't wear above light armor to make use of his feats, usually has a crappy AC, and relies on opponents being his Favored Enemies in order to deal decent damage. Where exactly are these guys better than the fighter again? 6) Casters can be optimized with little effort compared to melee and the list of wide sweeping options available to them as a flaw in the system. Actually, quite the contrary. I distinctly remember saying that D&D wasn't geared toward character duels, and that it wasn't fair to compare the fighter's attacking capability to something like Wail of the Banshee, because both were valuable to a high level party, and both were party resources. I remember saying that the Cleric and Wizard ended up using most of their resources in order to do some of the crazy stuff which replaced other party members, hardly with little effort. Sorry if you felt I was insulting, but I really, truly felt that you had no clue how wizards operated in a real game. Whether that was from lack of experience or a crappy GM is really irrelevant. Honestly, I think the best way to really discuss it would be to actually run a high level game to see the different characters in action in a balanced party. Unless we do that, everything else we talk about, since we have no common experience gaming together, is just speculation. Edit: You didn't quote the rest of my post, but I'd like to point out that the selfish Contingency Teleport strategy I mentioned was espoused by you, the number of encounters per day was dismissed by you as "another way for the DM to try to limit casters", and the dismissal of the fighter by saying "he's fine until he gets dominated" was a direct quote.
Szatany 11-21-06, 06:28 PM	P.S.: what do you think about the 0-level spells? There are few ways to adjust them: 1. Remove them entirely. Those that do not have more powerful versions at 1st level can be either improved, scrapped, or grouped (3 in 1 or something like that). 2. Allow to cast them at will, but some might need to be removed or adjusted (cure minor wounds for example). 3. Change them into class features. For example, a cleric, instead of having 0-level spells could have ability to use cure minor wounds 3/day, or something like that. This could be possibly combined with #1. 4. Use some high number of 0-level slots per day. Requires least work from designer's point but is pain in the neck for a player for no real benefit. That's all I have so far.
Flamewarrior 11-21-06, 08:30 PM	0-Level Spells (FlameWarrior) - Because stats don't affect 0-level spells, I often have allowed a PC to use their outright Primary State Bonus to amplify it. So if a Favored Soul has a 20 Charisma, they get +5 0-Level Spells. I also allow all 0-levels spells to be cast without needing to be memorized - regardless of class.I've done so too. About your comparisons, I think comparing damages-per-round that have to be distributed among opponents, only gained through heavy optimization (most of your examples) don't quite compare to instant-death area effects that require nothing but high caster level and save DCs (most full spellcasters). About, the psychic warrior, I never said psionic characters are weak - I think they, being well-rounded characters, actually are in comfortable middle ground between spellcasters and others, and, specifically, the psychic warrior is an example of everything a class should be - playable without optimization, never puts others to shame (except, maybe, barbarians and fighters, but that's because they often occupy the exact same role of frontliner), and with lots of options. Oh...carry on then. I'd be interested in knowing how it turns out.As soon as I have a decent player (most people I know in person aren't that reliable even for showing up, much less for devising effective strategies*) with a spellcaster, I'll tell you the results. *: in truth, most of the time in my campaigns, spellcasters are actually fine, but that's because of bad tactics on their part; I'd like to have something that might actually be played fully without problems - as per my comment on the psychic warrior, above. I'm also thinking about class compression, but it would have more classes than your list. By the way, do you have yours in digital format? Also, I'll banish half caster levels (not that there won't be people with limited spell acess, just that they'll be casted with full level - no more ridiculously easy to dispel hexblade curses, for example). By the way, I was thinking about having exactly people with maximum spell level 10 and 5, again as per Arcana Evolved. Szatany: I agree entirely with you on #4. About #3, I was thinking about giving lay on hands to the priest class (non-fighting divine caster), and making clerics actually have to use 1st-level spells whenever they wanted to heal; that would also entail #2, with the removal of cure minor wounds, maybe along with some other 0-level spells. About #1, I just like there to be things one could do all the time - and once reserve feats are allowed, there'll be far better limitless-use options for those really interested. JTalbain, Nakat: do you have any good reason not to settle your issues using personal messages?
JTalbain 11-25-06, 05:23 AM	JTalbain, Nakat: do you have any good reason not to settle your issues using personal messages? Issue settled actually. I listed him as a reference for a point of view which I detest (which was actually by no means limited to him), he took offense to it, and I agreed to disagree and settle it in real life. Done and done. I may continue posting in this thread, but anything else will actually be on topic rather than directed at him.
Flamewarrior 11-27-06, 05:28 PM	Issue settled actually. I listed him as a reference for a point of view which I detest (which was actually by no means limited to him), he took offense to it, and I agreed to disagree and settle it in real life. Done and done. I may continue posting in this thread, but anything else will actually be on topic rather than directed at him.Feel free to do so (obviously, this post doubles as a bump).
Ian Demagi 11-27-06, 11:54 PM	My view is that nerfing anything that is in the core rules is bad! The rules are the basis for the game. Our group pretty much has come to the conclusion that its the DM's story , but its the groups game. So any great modifying of the core rules is not going to happen in our group. This particular idea would go down in flames in about 2 minutes. Potential new members are briefed about what they can expect. Frankly we have told some guys that they just are not a fit for our group, and that they and we will be happier if they do not join. When I was running the game, I cringed when the Barbarian raged, the Cleric cast his "Juggernuat combo" (quickened of course),The Druid summoned a couple of Celestial Bisons and then changed into a dire Bear, and the wizard was tossing around distinegrates left and right with true strike to remove all doubt about them hitting. If you're the DM, either learn to deal with it, or go back to being a player. Nerfing the core rules is bad Dm'ing.Ian.
Flamewarrior 11-29-06, 05:15 PM	Our group pretty much has come to the conclusion that its the DM's story, but its the groups game. So any great modifying of the core rules is not going to happen in our group.I'd think that if it's your game, the rules are yours too - to modify as you see fit. If modifying rules is always bad, then there's no such thing as a flaw in the rules; so, the guys who made Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes, True 20 and other d20 games have absolutely no merit, much less the ones who actually dared making a D&D 3.5, and they had exactly the same idea as me; namely, fixing things considered to be problems. When I was running the game, I cringed when the Barbarian raged, the Cleric cast his "Juggernuat combo" (quickened of course),The Druid summoned a couple of Celestial Bisons and then changed into a dire Bear, and the wizard was tossing around distinegrates left and right with true strike to remove all doubt about them hitting.If your entire group was powerful, then it's your duty to challenge them - but what happens when the casters dominate everything, and the other characters's players are the ones to cringe? Do you tell them they shouldn't be playing? I ask this because many people think anything this barbarian can do, a caster can do better, and through the most used amount of 4 daily encounters - and this is where I aimed my revisionist guns. P.S.: of course, I'm not saying I'm as good as the above-mentioned people, it's simply that, in retrospect, there's quite an agreement (not unanimous, just wide) about some flaws. Nobody's perfect, after all.
Ian Demagi 11-29-06, 06:55 PM	I see your point , but in order to run a game in our group, you will be asked certain questions, and have to follow certain parameters set up by the group. Yeah we're conservative with what is allowed to players. Core 1 & 2, Completes, & SC are about it. You only get FR stuff, if FR is the game setting. BoED only by permisssion from that particular DM. 3rd Party has never been allowed for players, and only two settings- WLD, one Homebrew(mine). Ah, the Barbarian held his own quite nicely. I think they felt challanged, but everyonce in a while they routed me pretty good. As far casters go, a lot of my monsters carried Dispel Magic in some manner with multipule uses. The 4 encounters per day thing is a very good point, especially when rope trick is available.Ian.
Bringer of autumn 11-29-06, 07:01 PM	Not to say this is a terrible idea or anything but....yeah it's a terrible idea.
Armoured Priest 11-29-06, 07:06 PM	As soon as I have a decent player (most people I know in person aren't that reliable even for showing up, much less for devising effective strategies*) with a spellcaster, I'll tell you the results. *: in truth, most of the time in my campaigns, spellcasters are actually fine, but that's because of bad tactics on their part; I'd like to have something that might actually be played fully without problems - as per my comment on the psychic warrior, above. I'm also thinking about class compression, but it would have more classes than your list. By the way, do you have yours in digital format? Also, I'll banish half caster levels (not that there won't be people with limited spell acess, just that they'll be casted with full level - no more ridiculously easy to dispel hexblade curses, for example). By the way, I was thinking about having exactly people with maximum spell level 10 and 5, again as per Arcana Evolved. I sort of have it in digital...One of the things I've done for this campaign was create a list of "archetypes" that the players could choose from. These archetypes have classes (taken from my classes allowed for this campaign list) associated with them. Player actions within the game, then, influence further choices. For example:one of my archetypes, the "Wanderer" is pretty much a martial sort of character, and his initial class choices, (Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Bard, Rogue, Knight, Paladin) for the most part, reflect that. However, events within the game, both outside his influence, and choices the player makes could open up access to other classes (and PrCs) as for actuall allowed classes, other then the ones I've made or modified the rest are directly from either the PHB, or the Complete books. here is a paste of the archetype sheet I typed: Character Archetypes and associated races and classes. Hermit: Human, Orc, Wolfen, Elf: Ranger, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, Alchemist, Blue Mage, Warlock, Tinkerer Orc, Wolfen: add Barbarian, Sailor: Human, Wolfen, Feleeni, Draconian: Fighter, Bard, Hexblade, Dusk Blade, Rogue, Blue Mage, Swashbuckler, Tinkerer Wanderer: (See me) Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Bard, Rogue, Knight, Paladin Orphan: Any race. Any class except: Artificer, Tinkerer, Samurai, Ninja, and Monk Unless Feleeni: Trade out Paladin, Knight, Rogue for Samurai, Ninja, and Monk. Merchant: Human, Orc, Feleeni, Aerial, Draconian: Ranger, Bard, Rogue, Artificer, Alchemist, Blue Mage, Swashbuckler, Tinkerer. Ner-Do-Well: Any Race. Any Class Villager: Human, Elf, Feleeni, Aerial: Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Bard, Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Spirit Shaman, Dusk Blade, Hexblade, Alchemist, Blue Mage. Soldier: (taken) Human, Orc, Wolfen, Feleeni, Aerial: Fighter, Warmage, Knight, Paladin, Swashbuckler Feleeni: Drop Paladin, Swashbuckler, and Knight, and add Samurai, Ninja, and Monk Forester: Wolfen, Elf, Feleeni: Barbarian, Ranger, Spirit Shaman, Monk, Alchemist, Blue Mage. Exiled One: Orc, Wolfen, Elf, Feleeni, Aerial Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Rogue, Knight, Paladin, Warmage. Warlock Feleeni: Drop Paladin, and Knight for Monk, and Samurai. Student: Any Race Fighter, Bard, Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Knight, Paladin, Duskblade, Artificer, Alchemist, Tinkerer, Samurai, Monk. Scribe: Any Race Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Rogue, Ninja, Artificer, Alchemist, Blue Mage, Tinkerer The Soldier, Orphan, Merchant, Ner-do-well, Villager, and Exiled One are the ones that were chosen by my group. Also of note I'm not using all of the base PHB races, and have made up some new ones. If you're interested I can send you more info.
Flamewarrior 11-29-06, 07:52 PM	I see your point , but in order to run a game in our group, you will be asked certain questions, and have to follow certain parameters set up by the group.Actually, I don't think there's anything wrong with this - I had to fire some people from my games recently, and did just that. But that's another issue entirely. Also of note I'm not using all of the base PHB races, and have made up some new ones. If you're interested I can send you more info.Consider me interested - thanks.
Armoured Priest 12-02-06, 02:05 PM	Consider me interested - thanks. A bit much to read in one sitting, and for a forum post...here are some of the documents I've typed up for my campaign: A Basic History of Ilheria Circa. -10,000 years ago (circa –5,000 Diaspora or DA): The War of the Dearthstone. Dwarves, in their eternal enmity with the Orcs, pushed too hard, and forced the Orcish people to unite and drive back the Dwarves. The Orcs kept going and annihilated the Dwarves. Those who survived used magic to head to other Prime material plane worlds. Their former holds are left abandoned. Circa. -5000 to -4500 DA: The Gnomes, being closely related to the Dwarves felt lost as a people, and soon followed suit, using magic to head to other PMP worlds. It was during this period that Hobbits discovered that they, as a people, were becoming more and more like their closest racial relatives…Humans. Circa. –4500 DA: The Orcish people, having defeated one of their age-old enemies, decided that they would be unable to do the same to Humans, and Elves, and finally made peace. The Orcs discover great wealth in the endless sands of the south central continent (Varnia) and start putting together a culture. Circa. -4400 DA: Having become annoyed with their “children” and their inaction against the “threat” posed by a unified orcish people, the Elven pantheon abandons the elves of Ilheria. Elves quickly adapt to native deities who are only too happy for the extra power. Likewise the Orcish powers are annoyed by the newfound peace of the orcs. They too abandon their “children.” The Orcs follow suit of the elves. -3865 DA: Settlements on the continent of Grandis (SE continent) unite under the banner of Emerik Lantus the 1st to form the basis of The Kingdom of Lantus. The current ruling class still claims ties to the first king, Emerik. -3799 DA: The Elven clans finally consolidate and gain control of both the Rosewood Forest, and Pinewreathe Forest. -3456 DA: The Orcs settle on a social structure and officially found the Yore Emerates. Named after El’ Yore Ak-manistu the first Grand Sultan. -3100 to -2996 DA: The Return Wars. Dwarves and Gnomes return having gained strength on other Primes, and wanting their former holds back came to avenge themselves both against the orcs (who defeated them), and against the native humans and elves (who are perceived as worthless for not preventing the earlier defeat). Even though they come in great numbers, the Dwarves and Gnomes are eventually push back off world as the Orcs, Elves, and Humans are forces to band together against a common enemy. -2999 DA: Tsunam Archipelago is discovered by a joint Elf/Orc naval convoy. -1503-2 DA: Both End of the World East and West Islands discovered by human explorers -1307 DA: Spice Isles discovered by Orcish explorers -953 DA: The Quina Continent (what will become the Chouzou Empire) is discovered by elvish explorers. -663 DA: The Demon Wars begin. Having become frustrated with the relative peace the evil members of the Ilherian Pantheon make a last ditch effort to claim final victory. This event is so catastrophic that even the normally solitary Dragons are forced to participate. -542 DA: In an effort to create allies to aid against the evil onslaught, Druids start awakening Wolves (and other larger Lupines), and Larger cats (Tigers, Lynxes, Lions, ect). Over the next 100 years with interbreeding (Humans/Elves with the cats, and Humans/Orcs with the Lupines) create the foundations of the Feleeni, and Wolfen Races. -490 DA: Seeing that the conflict is depleting their numbers, Dragon-kind, in a last-ditch effort to preserve their legacies, begin interbreeding with Orcs and Humans (and later the Newly created Wolfen) to create a new race…the Draconians. -430 to –30 DA: Many battles are fought as most of the Deities are destroyed. As each power is destroyed, the remaining deific energies are subsumed by the remainder, until only the goddess Aenia (Justice and Righteousness originally), and Zendageit (Tyranny, Hatred, and Injustice originally) remain. Also, many legacies of high magical battles remain. The Desert of Destruction, the Sea of Tears, “The Wall”, and “The Spire” are all examples of these legacies. -6 DA: The Final Battle A final push sees Aenia, her personal guard, and a number of mortal heroes victorious over Zendageit and his evil legions. Zendageit is destroyed and his followers are sealed to the underworld. 1 DA: The Diaspora. Having inherited the foresight of Lockkin, and Vlort, Aenia decides to combine both the lingering power of Zendageit, and her own and use it to transport Ilheria into a completely new Universe in order to protect it from both the remnants of the Outer planer creatures still looking on with interest, as well as older enemies (like the Dwarves and Gnomes, as well as the former racial pantheons). The new Universe does not have access to any of the Outer planes, effectively closing off the planes. This does force those extra planer beings remaining to adopt a more mortal lifestyle. The remaining Celestial allies who chose to remain form what will become the Aeriel race. This also forces fluctuations in the natural laws (both Physical and Magical). It is soon discovered that with some adaptions, magic still works (even without a “tender of the magical weave”). Upon discovery of the “Aether”, magical research begins anew, but older styles of spellcasting (“Wizardry, Clerical, Druidic…i.e. prepared casting) becomes effectively impossible and ineffective. Still, many aspects of the older magic continue to function normally. The only major difference is the inability for magic that affects alternate planes, to work. 14 DA: Aeriels found the Republic of Aerianus. 36 DA: Feleeni found the Chouzou Empire. Emperor Mulaxio Chang Xionnalor is the first Chouzou emperor. 46 DA: Wolfen find and occupy the remnants of the Dwarven strongholds, ending up with a culture that emulates some of the former Dwarven culture (without the racial hatred of orcs that went with it. 47 DA: Draconians find the Tsunam Archipelago to their liking, and set-up the merchant based Union of Merklop to govern themselves, and their interests. 66 DA: Many who did not want to live under existing governing bodies migrate to the Verbozen Plains, Spice Isles, Ancient Forest, and Emerald Plateau (as well as isolated pockets in other, not so heavily patrolled areas). 150 DA: Chouzou Empire begins aggressive expansion across its continent, and the nearby “Crescent Isle”. 223 DA: Yore Emerates sends troops to attempt to take control of the valuable farmlands of the Verbozen Planes. 224 DA: Yore forces discover they don’t have the manpower to hold an area as large as Verbozen, and retire back to their lands. Over the next 3 years, negotiators secure trade rights for produce trade (agricultural produce), in return for valuable exports (oils, spices, exotic food items) 696 DA: Chouzou Empire makes its first attempt to annex the Spice Isles. The inhabitants of the Spice Isles, plus the unfriendly jungle environment force the Feleeni to give up. 701 DA: Rumors of lost pre-Diaspora treasures cause a major joint Feleeni, Orc, Draconian expedition to the Sea of Tears to be completely lost to the waves of the Sea of Tears. 906 DA: The first of a series of boarder skirmishes over logging rights on the edge of the Rosewood Forest between the Lantusians, and the Elves of Rosewood. While never becoming serious enough to halt diplomatic relations between the two groups, tensions wax and wane to present day over this matter. 1,005 DA: Chouzou makes its second attempt at the Spice Isles with similar results as the first time. 1,266: DA: The Elves of Rosewood attempt to exert influence over the independents of the Ancient forest on the Continent of Stectia (Northern continent of central landmass). With aid from the Republic of Aerianus, the inhabitants of the Ancient wood maintain their independence. 1,268 – 1,273 DA: The 5 years war. A series of aggressions are waged against the Aerials from the Elves for the Aerials’ involvement with the events of 1266. These end inconclusively. Relations have not seemed to suffer terrible because of this war, though. 1,636 DA: Chouzou makes its third attempt at the Spice Isles, and manage to hold one of the smaller islands, though total conquest eludes them. 1,649 DA: Chouzou forces are forced off the island by a strange curse, and hostile conditions. 1,669 DA: The Yore Emerates take a try at annexing The Spice Isles, with the same results as the Felenni. (Vow it’s not worth the effort) 2,110 DA: A Human, Draconian, and Orcish expedition to the South Pole meets at the “End of the World East”, and are lost in the cursed areas past those areas, supposedly falling off the edge of the world. 2,119 DA: Wolfen complete the cataloging of the Dwarven and Gnomish holds in the Frost Highlands and found the Clannadlac Council to represent their community as a whole. 2,697 – 2,300 DA: War of the Pick-axe. Territory dispute over mining rights in the northern Shield Mountains on the Grandis continent between the Chouzou, and the Lantusians. The Feleeni lose control of the mines, but retain control of the Eastmist Port. 2,989 DA: The Mistaken war. Something of a blunder on both their parts, due to garbled communication. The Wolfen and normally passive Badlands Elves fight a number battles concerning the Cursed Steppe. Neither side actually wanted that area, and once that was figured out hostilities were quickly ceased and reparations made. 3,403 DA: Chouzou makes its fourth (and most recent attempt) at annexing the Spice Isles. Again, the results are the same, but this time managed to create a permanent stopover point, which continues to exist to the present. 3,768 DA: A small merchant coaster consisting of elves, wolfen, and humans attempt a small mining colony called Darkhope on the Isle of the Spire (or just “The Spire”). They meet with initial success, but between the spring and summer supply runs, all contact is lost with the colony. Upon investigation not a trace of any survivors can be found at the colony, though no signs of invasion, or death can be found, almost as if the colonists were lifted off the face of the planet. 3,885 DA: The first Aether battery is constructed. More achievements of a more technological area follow. 4,201 DA: Wolfen and human miners begin to report encountering and battling “demons” within their mines (Having the oldest and deepest mining areas). Most dismiss these tales as over enthusiastic drunken story-telling. Reports continue sporadically to this day 4,509 DA: Wolfen explorers pin-point the North Pole. 4,783 – 4,789 DA: The Wall Conflict. Yore Emerates, and the Republic of Aerianus clash over mining rights within “The Wall” (mountain range separating the continents on the central landmass). The Yore are able take control of 60 % of the Wall’s mining, but lack the organized might to hold any more then that. This is still a bit of a sore point between the two governments (though most citizens of both nations don’t particularly care about these politics, and so don’t hold any grudges. Also, the primary effected people, miners, can always seem to find work and so aren’t very perturbed either). 5009 DA: Present year. Adventure awaits! What follows is a list of the former deities of Ilheria, and their main areas of influence: Former powers of Ilheria Good deities: Valara - Virtue Aenia – Justice, Righteousness (still exists as the “Goddess”) Lockkin – Knowledge, learning Vlort – Planning, foresight Calcipe – Light, the sun, truth Zenioa - Love Sheppie - Renewal Neutral powers: Elemental Lords (1 for each of the 5. Usually “Lord of Fire/Earth/Water/Wind/Energy”) Nuturi - magic Vlome - death Evil powers: Klop – Gluttony, Greed Zendagiet – Tyranny, Hatred, Injustice (last to fall) Vortu – Wrath, Rage Glavin – Murder, disfigurement Raxia - Lust Goade – Deception, the moons (there are two Brightmoon, and Darkmoon) Tchlospp – Entropy, Undeath Excerpts from: A Unified Conceptual Theory of Aether Compiled by Sage Turlisch Carmbacchli Lantus Royal Academy of Mystical Arts & Sciences 3357 DA This document as intended as an introduction to the concepts and realities that face modern Aethermolders (or Spellcasters as they are more commonly known). First, a bit of history: Before the Diaspora, this world we live on (Ilheria) was one of many “Prime Material Worlds,” connected together by a series of metaphysical avenues known as “Planes of Existence.” These “planes” in turn were also worlds unto themselves complete with life-forms, ecosystems, basic physical laws inherent to that location, and so on. Ilheria, like many other Prime Material Worlds (abbr. Prime /plural: Primes) had its magic fields maintained by the direct intervention of an immortal power. This field had many names on the various worlds. In our histories we read of other Primes such as Abeir-Toril, Eberron, and Oerth. Toril was noteworth as its magic field was specifically described as a “weave”…not unlike the weave attributable to a fabric or wickerwork, maintained by that world’s magic power, Mystryl. Similarly, Oerth’s magical field maintainer was named Boccob (records describe a struggle with an entropic force that seemed to be attempting to discorporate magic on that world). Magic was, before the Great War, maintained in a way comparible to Mystryl, and Boccob by the “immortal” power Nuturi on Ilheria. As her desire to protect this world from further encroachment from various elements (ranging from the evil demons hailing from places with esoteric names such as Carceri, Hades, Nessus, The Infinite Abyss, Avernus…to the well meaning, but over-zealous celestials from equally esoteric places such as the “Beastlands,” Olympus, Arvendor, The Seven Heavens) Aenia subsumed all of the energies of all the other powers and moved our world through an opening in reality, and moved us to a new reality. Once here its was soon discovered (whether it is a fundamental nature of this reality, or always was a fundament of magic, and a power managed to dupe his fellows into a more important position of influence then was really necessary) that magic continued to function, and seemed to be self perpetuating. Still, there were differences in how magic worked compared to before. What follows are some basic explanations of differences in the efficacy of magic and applications of. Firstly, in this new realty there aren’t a series of “planes” connecting everything (at least as far as our ability to interpret them allows for). As such, many transportations spells no longer worked as they once did, forcing alterations in the casting to allow them to function in a way that allowed them to be of continued use. The prime example would be the well-known Teleport spell. According to the old records one was shunted onto a “plane” known as the Astral Plane and actually covered the physical distance on this “plane” (apparently travel on the Astral plane proceeded at a much faster rate then normal space would allow for). Now the being of space is directly manipulated, literally stretching the area where you are, to connect to the location you want to go. This could be likened to instead of walking for miles to go around a crevasse, building a bridge to get across in a relatively short distance. Another example could be the ancient spell the records refer to as Rope Trick. That spell apparently created a secure area called a “pocket dimension” that seemed to be particularly useful for adventurers to rest and recuperate. Due to the nature of this reality, our sages have yet to determine a way to get this spell to function in a useful and applicable way. Note that, while we are cut off from the worlds known as “planes,” the areas referred to as pocket dimensions do seem to exist, but require supreme amounts of magical energy to even access, let alone manipulate. This suggests that if one had access to an inordinate amount of magic (probably comparable to the combined power of all of the former immortal powers + Aenia) holes could be punched into this realty possible enabling this world to be relocated back into its original position (Note: I would not endorse that path. It is obvious to even the most naïve student of history that the last 5000 years of relative peace can be attributed to the lack of intervention from outside forces such as powers, demons, devils, ect.) Nextly, of note are the various Summon Monster spells. What has been determined is that the Aether carries with it an imprint of a standard representative of the requested creature…an “archetype” if you will. This “archetype” seems to be a core representation of the conceptualized ideal of the given creature. This seems to account for why every time a creature is summoned using one of these spells, they always seem to be identical (and the population of said creatures don’t seem to ever decrease.) Next are the spellcasters themselves, those people who work and mould the mysteries of the Aether to their will. I the days before the Diaspora, there were something known as “Prepared” Casters. Apparently, they would do whatever it was they would do to get spell into their mind, and then after they cast them, the knowledge of these spells would disappear from their minds (Note: Sounds like the Immortal power that controlled magic didn’t want any potential competition and so set up mortal magics to work in this way). Eventually people figured out how to cast without preparation, and then after the Diaspora, learned to mix the best of both the prepared casters, and what were known as more “spontaneous casters.” This now leads us into the question: What exactly is the Aether? Well, to be bluntly honest, we don’t precisely know. We do know however that it is some sort of energy field generated be the planet that then directly generates and maintains magical energy fields of all sorts. It also seems to be responsible for manipulation of other types of energy such as heat and light, on a fundamental level. Furthermore, due to the effects of Aether, all of the various energy forms seem to interact, and interchange with each other. This interaction could account for the various effects that seem to spontaneously erupt from where there was seemingly none. For example, in places with prolonged use of magic to produce heat energy, even after the magic is stopped, the given area seems to either retain a measure of heat retention and generation above and beyond its surroundings. Another example would be that often times in areas of major magical discharges (such as a spell battle) random light patters seem to be generated even though there is no actual light source. There are also examples of magical effects being randomly generated in the presence of intense amounts of other energy forms such as heat and light (the incident at the old Mt. Cleft Orrary, and Observatory where intersecting, focused light energy caused random magical effects to be created and destroy the structure. Finally, we are given (thanks to lack of outside interference) a more profound example into the importance and value of prisms, and how they allow a more intimate look into the nature of Aether. We already knew that prisms break light down into its component parts, the basic colors of the spectrum. Prisms also seem to do the same for magic as well. It has been found that when magic is used, the hue of the caster is representative of the areas of magic he/she has access to, and seems to have a direct analogue to the pure light spectrum created by prisms. For example a pure Sorcerer always seems to glow a pure red when casting, a priest seems to glow with a blue light, and finally Nature priests seem to glow yellow (Note: No, not green…smart-alek kids). People who use unusual magics, such as Beast Charmers seem to glow with an Indigo when using their powers (Note: Indigo seems to be a catch-all for magic that doesn’t appear to fit elsewhere). People who have access to multiple sources glow mixed hues based of those accesses. A word to those of you with an adventuring bent: If the spellcaster in front of you is glowing purple you’re facing some sort of Wizard/Priest multicaster (i.e. Mystic Thurge). Also if the caster is glowing white, be scared, said person has access to everything and is probably Aenia herself. In conclusion this summary is a beginning primer on the mysteries of aether and how it affects you. I hope you found this brief discourse enlightening, and interesting. House rules used in Ilheria campaign At caster level 10 0lvl spells can be used an unlimited amount per day The outer planes do not exist in Ilheria’s reality Stat boosts as per the Conan RPG PC classes operating under one die boost Weapon damage operating under 1 die boost No Wizards, Cleric, or Druid Paladin, Ranger, and Hexblade are ½ caster progression, and use Cleric, Druid, and Wizard/sorc charts respectively. Spells w/ > 500gp material component cost 10% of that cost in experience instead. No material components (except for Tinkerer, and Alchemist) Spells dealing with planes either: a) don’t work at all [example Summon planer ally, Rope Trick] or b) have been modified [Teleport, Dimension Door, Mordenkeinan’s Magnificent Mansion, Summon Monster] http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2779/mapofilheriadesktopnv3.th.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapofilheriadesktopnv3.jpg) (I inverted the colors on the map, because I tought it looked cool ;)...I was pretty pleased with how well my hand-drawn map turned out.)
GEEKAZOID 12-02-06, 05:27 PM	Here is a quick way to nerf wizards... Spell components. Enforce the rule. Don't have the right materials? Can't cast the spell. Spell books. Which of the spells you know are written in that book? There are only so many pages in a spellbook you know.
Ian Demagi 12-02-06, 06:08 PM	"No Wizards, Cleric, or Druid Paladin, Ranger, and Hexblade are ½ caster progression, and use Cleric, Druid, and Wizard/sorc charts respectively." This is exactly why my group made group rules, to keep crap like this from happening, Ian.
OneWinged4ngel 12-02-06, 07:58 PM	If it was an invitation-only board, it'd be something new (at least in my limited experience with RPG forums). Angel (if you don't mind): do you know some RPG forum like this? If yes (and you're member of one), could you ... well, you know? Sorry for not responding; I haven't been checking back to this thread. Anyways... no, I don't know any D&D forum like this. I know some other sorts of forums like this. One example was a competitive gaming forum for a fighting game. It might be interesting to set up such a forum, though.
JTalbain 12-02-06, 10:44 PM	Here is a quick way to nerf wizards... Spell components. Enforce the rule. Don't have the right materials? Can't cast the spell. Spell books. Which of the spells you know are written in that book? There are only so many pages in a spellbook you know. I agree wholeheartedly here. DMs honestly just don't keep up with little things like that. Sometimes even other components are overlooked; I've had games where the Wizard was casting all his spells while grappled, games where expensive material components are overlooked (Forcecage is extra gross when the DM thinks it's free, and Trap the Soul.....), and games where I feel like a bastard traitor to the party because I keep reminding the DM that monsters get Attacks of Opportunity because our mage isn't casting defensively. I wouldn't make mages keep track of individual spell components with no market value, because the rules tell you not to. It's more trouble than it is worth. But definitely keep track on the spellbooks. For that matter, make everyone keep track of their loot and gear. I find that carrying capacity is probably the most overlooked rule in all of D&D, people only check it for when they want to move something really heavy, when in reality, their own gear is already a medium to heavy load and they don't even realize it.
Flamewarrior 12-04-06, 06:52 PM	Armoured Priest: actually, I meant to say I was interested in the archetypes and classes - sorry; but, actually, the history you did post is great (especially the text about magic). Why don't you post that and the classes in a separate thread (you know, this one serves less and less its original purpose ...)? Here is a quick way to nerf wizards... Spell components. Enforce the rule. Don't have the right materials? Can't cast the spell. Spell books. Which of the spells you know are written in that book? There are only so many pages in a spellbook you know.Who said "wizards"? I say "full spellcasters" for a reason: wizards are actually the only ones who worry with books; also, time stop and miracle have no costly components, just to give you an example. Anyways... no, I don't know any D&D forum like this. I know some other sorts of forums like this. One example was a competitive gaming forum for a fighting game. It might be interesting to set up such a forum, though.Never mind about taking long to answer (by the way, I'm starting to feel my answers are shorter than they should, due to lack of time; sorry). Also, does anyone know if there's a way to get a free, reliable space for a forum, like it's easy nowadays to get a blog? I agree wholeheartedly here. DMs honestly just don't keep up with little things like that. Sometimes even other components are overlooked; I've had games where the Wizard was casting all his spells while grappled, games where expensive material components are overlooked (Forcecage is extra gross when the DM thinks it's free, and Trap the Soul.....), and games where I feel like a bastard traitor to the party because I keep reminding the DM that monsters get Attacks of Opportunity because our mage isn't casting defensively. I wouldn't make mages keep track of individual spell components with no market value, because the rules tell you not to. It's more trouble than it is worth. But definitely keep track on the spellbooks. For that matter, make everyone keep track of their loot and gear. I find that carrying capacity is probably the most overlooked rule in all of D&D, people only check it for when they want to move something really heavy, when in reality, their own gear is already a medium to heavy load and they don't even realize it.You are quite a lot right, but I don't think that would take care of every problem; also, as you said, inattentive GMs often benefit everyone, not just spellcasters.
Flamewarrior 02-22-07, 07:44 PM	Prune avoidance bump.