Post/Author/DateTime	Post
freemoody 05-24-04, 08:48 PM	A 5th lvl druid can change into a 5 HD Black Bear right? Black Bear 5 HD Medium Animal Speed: 40 ft AC: 13 (1 dex, 2 nat) BAB/Grapple: +3/+12 Attack: Claw +6 (1d4 +5) Full Attack: 2 Claws +8 (1d4 +5), Bite +3 (1d6 +2) Saves: Same Abilities: Str 20 (+1 at 4HD), Dex 13, Con 15 And a 3 HD Eagle? Eagle 3 HD Medium Animal Speed: fly 80 ft, 10 ft AC: 13(+2 dex, +1 nat) BAB/Grapple: 2/+6 Attack: Talons +2 (1d4) Full Attack: 2 Talons +2 (1d4), bite -3 (1d4) Saves: Same Abilities: Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12
Dave1001 05-24-04, 10:21 PM	yes. except you do not gain a +1 bonus to Str from having 4+ HD. You could give your 4th level druid a +1 to Str, but your Str score is replaced by the average Str score when wildshaped into an animal. So it would only be Str 19. That, and black bears only have 3 HD ( not like it matters in your case, though)
Ryoohki 05-26-04, 01:22 PM	No. You can only change into a creature of the HD listed in the MM. Kyle
Thorak 05-26-04, 03:00 PM	Originally posted by Ryoohki No. You can only change into a creature of the HD listed in the MM. Kyle I disagree. It says you can take on the form of any animal you're familiar with. If you're familiar with 2HD advanced black bears, Wildshaping into one is perfectly legal. Of course, unless you come from a place where all the bears are bigger and better than elsewhere, you probably aren't familiar with them unless your animal companion is one. And the animal companion boosts don't, in this case, count as advancement; you use your AC's base stats if you're turning into a carbon copy of him. But if you can qualify yourself to be 'familiar' with Advanced critters, rather than seeing one once at a distance, then I don't see anything saying you can't use the advanced stats.
vampeel 05-26-04, 07:33 PM	But wildsahpe says you can change into an average creature, so an advance is not average.
Thorak 05-26-04, 09:45 PM	Really? I just re-read the Wildshape section in my PHB, and haven't noticed a single mention of the word 'average' or any implication that the druid is restricted to 'normal' forms of the critters involved. The only limitations placed on the form that aren't statistical (HD and size, mostly) are the following sentences; Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. Since I don't see any support whatsoever for your claims, perhaps you could provide a direct rule quotation? From the two bits I've quoted above, it seems pretty clear that if the Druid in question is 'familiar' with Gus, the massive advanced 8HD Black Bear who lives out back of her cottage, then his form is a possibility. Since Gus is a 'creature with the animal subtype' that the 'druid is familiar with', and those seem to be the only restrictions beyond the generic limits on size and HD that apply to all forms.
vampeel 05-27-04, 01:48 AM	First off Wildshape is like Polymorph which is like Alter Self, Stupid wotc not actually explaining something and just refering to stuff. :confused: And there are a few line in alter self that allude that you would only be able to gain ability scores that of a standard of that race but I just reread everything that I could think of and yes you are right Thorak as in 3.5 I am incorrect, but in 3.0 it has the example that you cannot turn into a strong person it had to be an average. So basically all you need to do is find a form that you like to use or that is good for your roleplaying and just keep advancing as you progress. of course you need to follow the posted rules on doing that. :schemes: I got ideas now for my next gaming section
Thorak 05-27-04, 09:37 AM	To be clear, Vampeel, you can't just keep advancing your Black Bear wildshape form because you like it. You need to be familiar with at least one Advanced Black Bear of that HD level to be able to take that form. That's why I used my Gus the bear example; there still needs to be an actual bear of that size you're familiar with before you can take that form, you can't just use advanced forms as you wish. Most characters should be using the basic stat blocks, but the room is there for those druids familiar with exceptional members of certain species.
Ryoohki 05-27-04, 11:19 AM	Again, that is incorrect. You can only take the average animal as listed in the MM. For reference, look at the recent article: "Rules of the Game: Polymorphing." Link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a Here are two quotes from it: The kind of creature you choose for the assumed form determines the size. The subject becomes the same size as an average member of its kind. For example, if you turn the subject into a troll, the subject becomes size Large, which is the standard size for a troll. The subject is effectively disguised as an average member of the assumed form's race, as noted in Part Two. Kyle