Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ereanor 11-06-06, 03:15 PM	I recently posted a Half-Elf Ranger/Wildrunner build that I proposed to play in my upcoming campaign. After much research and some very detailed insight from Otto the Bugbear(again thanks for your response to my prior post for it was very helpful), I have changed courses and opted to play a bard instead(it would benefit the group more and I'd rather play a bard anyhow, as it fits into the flavor of my character history better). Here is my build and any advice or criticism is most welcomed. Thank you. Half-elf CG Bard 20(We'll be starting as 4th level characters) Stats(These were rolled so I can only switch them around I can't alter the actual number). Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 8 and Cha 17 (eventually this will become 22 with the +5 from ability boosts). Feats: 1.Weapon Finesse. 3.Versitile Performer(Complete Arcane). 6.Disquise Spell(Complete Arcane). 9. Subsonics(Complete Arcane). 12.Lyric Spell(Complete Arcane). 15.Requiem(Song and Silence). 18.Green Ear (Complete Arcane). I know some people prefer other feats such as Word of Creation or Spellcasting Prodigy but we are limited to the core books, the race books(Wild, Stone and Destiny), and the complete books(which include their 3.0 versions like Song and Silence) unless we get prior approval from our DM(which he is very open about us choicing feats from other sources) but I don't have all the books so I'm very content with the given books. How does this look? Thanks.
malignor 11-06-06, 03:24 PM	First off, in regard to stats. - I'm not sure that pumping Charisma beyond 16 is worthwhile. Sure, you get a higher DC to some spells, extra spells and so on. But think about how else you can enhance your character by putting the stats elsewhere. Maybe 18 would be a good natural limit. - Intelligence at 16 is awesome for a Bard. 9 skill ranks per level is sweet as can be. Next there are spell & feat selections... Ensure your Bard remains useful and exciting in all situations. Think about traps, think about undead, think about constructs and mindless things. You want to be sure that when you're wandering a dungeon filled with undead or traps you're not turning into a bored, broken record whose only words are "*sigh*... I sing." Pick spells and feats that give you more to do. Bards should be able to have a secondary role in every situation (but 1st in social stuff).
Ereanor 11-06-06, 03:40 PM	Ok, Malignor, thats some solid advice and exactly what I was hoping for when I posted. I'll boost Ch up to 18 and then maybe put the rest to Dex. Should I add some archery feats in place of Green Ear, Lyric Spell, and requiem (like Point Blank Shot, Precise shot and Rapid Shot)? My goal was to be more useful in social aspects and role playing. I see your point though with being useful in multiple situations and I see how my feat selection may limit me to ma more "song" oriented character. Picking feats has always been my main weakness in building a charater and here is no exception. The rest of the party will, most likely, be: Dwarven rogue Human psion Elvin wizard Human fighter and I'm not sure what the last member will be as he is a newer player and we haven't met yet. Thanks for the quick response and the useful information to ponder over.
malignor 11-06-06, 03:49 PM	One Feat I love for bards is Lingering Song. Use Inspire Courage for only one round, and it buffs the party for 7 while you do whatever. Totally blows away the "I sing" bard, freeing up alot of actions. And when you boil down to it, actions are what win the day.
enygmatic_me 11-06-06, 04:08 PM	Malignor has already made some really good suggestions, especially with Lingering Song. The one thing you might want to consider is bumping up that Wisdom to at least get rid of the negative modifier. Wisdom governs some important skills (listen and sense motive) as well as your Willpower save. As you will probably be the parties speaker you are going to want to keep sense motive high and listen is always important.
Daxen 11-06-06, 05:03 PM	Just an idea here. Have you considered the "Seeker of the Song" Prestige class? 10 Levels of Bard, followed by 10 levels of this Prestige class will ensure that you remain useful in many many circumstances. If you decide to go that route I would recommend fitting the Extra Music feat from Song and Silence if you can find a place for it. You lose spell progression, but the music becomes oh so interesting. Dungeon full of undead singing up a cone of fire should help, firey creatures burning your party up get resist fire 15 for everybody. It's a really interesting way for a bard to go and doable within your book limits.
Ereanor 11-06-06, 08:53 PM	Wow, this is all great advice. Lingering Song is definitely a great feat. I've been piecing this together for a couple of days and half the time I'm throwing in Lingering Song and the other half Weapon Finesse. Maybe I'll drop Weapon Finesse for it. Is taking Versatile Performer worth it? Some other feats I was considering are Improved Initiative, Extra Music, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Leadership. I'm confused on which feats would fit best. I hate having a negative in wisdom and I didn't want to do it but i keep seeing builds with the wisdom low. I like your advice and I'm going to boost it at least to 10. Seeker of the Song is great. I'm just mulling over whether I want to lose my spellcasting for some really potent songs. It's a tough choice but a good option. Thanks for the good idea.
Eyeless Blond 11-06-06, 09:27 PM	Do you have, or know anyone who has, Complete Mage? If so, pick up Melodic Casting at first level instead of Weapon Focus. It's basically the bard's equivalent of Natural Spell: it allows you to cast spells while using bardic music. In other words, it's a feat that is as of now basically required for all bards, forever. Oh, and don't forget to look at the half-elf's racial substitution levels, like the one that (if I recall correctly) swaps out Fascinate for Calm Emotions. It's an especially interesting ability for those who plan on heading off to Sublime Chord or other prestige classes.
Jaxgaret 11-06-06, 09:50 PM	The rest of the party will, most likely, be: Dwarven rogue Human psion Elvin wizard Human fighter and I'm not sure what the last member will be as he is a newer player and we haven't met yet. In this party, unless the new player picks a Cleric or Druid or Paladin, you sir have the honor of being the primary healer for the group. The psion might have some healing ability, and the Rogue can use UMD to use Wands of CLW - but you don't need UMD to use that Wand; you are going to want to be johnny-on-the-spot with the Wands of CLW, even more so than the rogue, because he is going to be more of a primary damage dealer than you are. One other thing: if you think you can fit it in somewhere, the feat Force of Personality from CAdv lets your Bard use its Cha mod instead of its Wis mod to Will saves. Boom, +4 to will saves. Do you have, or know anyone who has, Complete Mage? If so, pick up Melodic Casting at first level instead of Weapon Focus. It's basically the bard's equivalent of Natural Spell: it allows you to cast spells while using bardic music. In other words, it's a feat that is as of now basically required for all bards, forever. Yeah. What they said. It actually might bring Bards up a notch or two in power to above average; perhaps it should be houseruled so that all Bards gain that feat for free at 1st level, like how a lot of gaming groups houserule that Sorcerers get Eschew Materials for free at 1st level. And Natural Spell, obviously, gets banned.
Daxen 11-06-06, 10:11 PM	I would really leave the weapon stuff to the rogue and the fighter. Weapon finesse is all well and good, but you are of much more use out of melee than in. Singing + Casting with Melodic casting, + Wand of CLW gives you more than enough to do and no need for weapon finesse. If the rogue needs a flanker, summon one. With the absence of a cleric you are the closest thing the party has to bless. Your spell selection takes Illusion and Enchantment pressure off the wizard so he can focus on other things. Bards are great for the fact that they can do just about anything passably. The key however, is to specialize a little bit so that you can be more than passable at certain aspects. The bard starts out all over the place, but I find no need to keep him there.
Ereanor 11-07-06, 11:39 AM	Ok this has all been very useful and great. Thanks to everyone for their replies. I'll probably go with these stats: Str 10, Dex 14(Boost at level 16 & 20 to become a 16), Con 14, Int 16, Wis 8(Boost at level 8 & 12 to become 10 and avoid the negative), and Cha 17(Boost at 4th level to become an 18). Feats. 1. Lingering Song (good suggestion) 3. Versitile Performer. 6. Disguise Spell. 9. Subsonics 12. Melodic Casting(If I can get the book or get access to the book perhaps I'll take it earlier). 15 & 18 still not sure but I have plenty of time before I get to those levels. Force of Personality, Extra Music, Lyric Spell, and Requiem are possibilities. I'm pretty ok with sklills and spells as I have found some useful threads searching the forums. I will definitely keep UMD(for scrolls and such)maxed because as has been pointed out I may have to act as party healer for a time. I'm leaning towards going Bard 20. Seeker of the Song and Sublime Cord are very tempting choices. Thank you all for the very valuable suggestions.
CaoSlayer 11-07-06, 11:55 AM	Nice second build. Finesse was useless without other feats to suport it. You can considere improved iniciative so your pals will be affected by you music earlier in the first round. And if you want to cast some debuffs you can considere spellfocus enchantment. Requiem and Green ear are so conditional that are nearly useless... specially green ear since there are not too many plant creatures. if you ever meet an enemy undead or plant considere to use buff spells. Requiem it is useful most the time if you have a friend necromancer in the party so you can inspire courage his minions, otherwise the only ocasion you will use a bard song with an undead will be to fascinate it so it is very restrictive the use of the feat, I would say that ever getting spell penetration/greater will be more helpful as creatures with high SR are more common at those high levels. Abuse Otto´s Dance at high levels, being able to "stun" with no save rocks.
Zilvar 11-07-06, 12:03 PM	I like Song of the Heart ( from the Eberron setting ) as well. It essentially raises the effect of every bardic ability by +1. I used it with my Bard 14/Seeker 2 in a recently concluded campaign to good effect. I heartily support most of the other suggestions, and agree with avoiding Weapon Finesse. I found that staying at range (shortbow for me) and maintaining two songs (later on, with Improved Invisibility to generate miss chances).
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 11-07-06, 01:15 PM	You should consider Lyric Spell from Complete adventurer, especially as a primary healer. This allows you to convert songs into spells.