Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheHeckler 12-04-05, 03:19 AM	I'm looking for a class (if one exists) that embodies both good and evil simultaneously. Something of a cross breed between paladin and blackguard, or good and evil domain clerics. If anyone has WOL, the history of the "scales of balance" and its wielder "Hemsi" (pg. 136) are a good example of the type of character I'm trying to create. I've looked through nearly a dozen books but haven't found anything yet, so any help would be appricated.
Oliver D'Argent 12-04-05, 10:14 AM	In a word, no. There are none that I am aware of at any rate and, given the rules on alignment, it seems highly unlikely that there are any out there. Good and Evil in D&D are more than just abstract concepts: they are very real and diametricly opposed forces. Combining the two just isn't feasible under the rules - the closest you are likely to get is a character who is Neutral along the Good/Evil axis.
Dionon 12-04-05, 10:35 AM	A Chaotic Neutral Warlock?
Jaxgaret 12-04-05, 11:32 AM	I'm looking for a class (if one exists) that embodies both good and evil simultaneously. Something of a cross breed between paladin and blackguard, or good and evil domain clerics. If anyone has WOL, the history of the "scales of balance" and its wielder "Hemsi" (pg. 136) are a good example of the type of character I'm trying to create. I've looked through nearly a dozen books but haven't found anything yet, so any help would be appricated. Technically, a True Neutral Druid would probably be the closest thing to what you're looking for. You would just have to change the flavor somewhat. Possibly a True Neutral Fatespinner?
TheHeckler 12-04-05, 05:03 PM	In a word, no. There are none that I am aware of at any rate and, given the rules on alignment, it seems highly unlikely that there are any out there. Good and Evil in D&D are more than just abstract concepts: they are very real and diametricly opposed forces. Combining the two just isn't feasible under the rules - the closest you are likely to get is a character who is Neutral along the Good/Evil axis. I actually bought a book recently "heros of horror" that introduces a different concept to good and evil, and basically challenges the ideal of allignments to begin with. It's called the 'taint' system, and unfortuntely I haven't read into it much so I can't really give much info about it. Basically however, it is a more realisitic (IMO) outlook on morality by recongizing that very few of us are either saints or sinister to begin with. Not only do people possess the aptitude to both, our words, actions, and beliefs can sway over the years, or even day to day. That's one of the major problems with the allignment system that I strongly disagree with, it makes the presumption (falsely in many cases) that you will always act in a similar manner, day to day. Often this isn't the case in real life, and it shouldn't be in D&D either. Anyway, it's disappointing that out of the seemingly endless supply of classes and prc that nothing along the lines of what I discribed exists. Either i'll modify an existing template, or I'll create a class from scratch. I really like the Hexblade...too bad he's a little more evil orientated (in both lore and abilties) and doesn't quite balance the scale in that respect. Thanks for the replies.
Anshin Mandango 12-04-05, 07:22 PM	there is a homebrew on these boards somewhere, "the master of heaven and hell" or some such that does exactally what you're looking for
TheHeckler 12-04-05, 07:36 PM	there is a homebrew on these boards somewhere, "the master of heaven and hell" or some such that does exactally what you're looking for That's great, could you give me any more info? I'm looking for it, but its like searching for a specific grain of sand on a beach. Do you remember who made it by chance? or anything else to help me track it down? I already tried a search for that name, haven't come across it though.
Anshin Mandango 12-04-05, 07:49 PM	i can't find it, i just went through the last 50 pages of posts. i guess it got eaten in the board prune.
TheHeckler 12-04-05, 07:52 PM	i can't find it, i just went through the last 50 pages of posts. i guess it got eaten in the board prune. f34t42!!!GER h5$H in other words....dammit it all! thanks for searching for me though...do you remember anything about the class by chance that I might be able to use to setup my own template?
Banedir 12-04-05, 09:02 PM	I'm pretty sure that under any standard D&D cosmology, embodying Good or Evil would completely preclude you from embodying the other one. They're at the opposite ends of the same continuum. Moreover, while being Good requires you to be constant (see the paladin), being Evil doesn't preclude you from doing nice things whenever you want to. An evil character can feed the orphans all week long, then commit ritual murder every Sunday, and not be any more or less evil than a typical villain. Adhering stringently to the demands of goodness 95% of the time then being evil doesn't make you Good, Neutral, Good-going on-Evil, or anything else but regular, run-of-the-mill evil. What you can have, though, is a character of the type that recognises the power of both or somehow has dominion over both sides of the coin. A cleric is probably your best bet for this one, as they could serve: A "chief" deity A God of the Underworld A God of Free Will / Morality and so on and so forth. How do you do it? Play a neutral character, and get the DM's permission to take both the Good and Evil domains. Just because you can't embody both doesn't mean you can't have authority over both. Also possible, is to use a cosmology / background wherein "all things are ordained under heaven", or something similar, and then play an utter villain because the supreme cosmic force of whatever has decreed it's your role in the Great Cycle of Wheels and Spinning Things to fulfill some specific, "evil" duty in order to make the universe work: culling of the weak, victimisation of the guilty, testing of the virtuous, etc. etc. For this kind of character, you could probably get away with modifying the paladin very slightly - change the alignment, swap healing touch for some nasty equivalent, alter the spell list to reflect your duty, and change adherence to the code to adherence to fulfilling some rigorous and unpleasant duty / destiny rigorously / unpleasantly. There's also the 2nd Edition AD&D True Neutral "balance" druid, who thinks good and evil are both important and must be balanced against each other. The chief problem with this is that it's fairly obviously a crock. I mean, if you stab a guy to death and then buy his widow a car, do you think that would be natural / balanced? Or how about if you go around burning down forests then rescue all the squirrels? "True Neutral" druids balancing good and evil is about as dumb as you get, but it can work if you don't think about it much. Or at all. If you're going for a more complex view of morality you could probably create a character that was all about drawing strengths from going to extremes. There's almost an unlimited number of ways that could work - you could make it a Barbarian varient that can fly into "Righteous" or "Dark" furies with differing bonuses and requiring different behaviours, or you could make it like a Psion or Psychic Warrior that has to manually "charge up" PP by committing extreme acts or indulging in certain vices / virtues. Or, for a twist, in a standard Dungeons and Dragons cosmology, you could play a Fighter who *thinks* he embodies both good and evil and regards himself as a Paladin / Backguard, but isn't. You could get mad at people when they refuse to look healthier after you lay hands on them.
TheHeckler 12-04-05, 10:24 PM	I'm pretty sure that under any standard D&D cosmology, embodying Good or Evil would completely preclude you from embodying the other one. They're at the opposite ends of the same continuum. Moreover, while being Good requires you to be constant (see the paladin), being Evil doesn't preclude you from doing nice things whenever you want to. An evil character can feed the orphans all week long, then commit ritual murder every Sunday, and not be any more or less evil than a typical villain. Adhering stringently to the demands of goodness 95% of the time then being evil doesn't make you Good, Neutral, Good-going on-Evil, or anything else but regular, run-of-the-mill evil. What you can have, though, is a character of the type that recognises the power of both or somehow has dominion over both sides of the coin. A cleric is probably your best bet for this one, as they could serve: A "chief" deity A God of the Underworld A God of Free Will / Morality and so on and so forth. How do you do it? Play a neutral character, and get the DM's permission to take both the Good and Evil domains. Just because you can't embody both doesn't mean you can't have authority over both. Also possible, is to use a cosmology / background wherein "all things are ordained under heaven", or something similar, and then play an utter villain because the supreme cosmic force of whatever has decreed it's your role in the Great Cycle of Wheels and Spinning Things to fulfill some specific, "evil" duty in order to make the universe work: culling of the weak, victimisation of the guilty, testing of the virtuous, etc. etc. For this kind of character, you could probably get away with modifying the paladin very slightly - change the alignment, swap healing touch for some nasty equivalent, alter the spell list to reflect your duty, and change adherence to the code to adherence to fulfilling some rigorous and unpleasant duty / destiny rigorously / unpleasantly. There's also the 2nd Edition AD&D True Neutral "balance" druid, who thinks good and evil are both important and must be balanced against each other. The chief problem with this is that it's fairly obviously a crock. I mean, if you stab a guy to death and then buy his widow a car, do you think that would be natural / balanced? Or how about if you go around burning down forests then rescue all the squirrels? "True Neutral" druids balancing good and evil is about as dumb as you get, but it can work if you don't think about it much. Or at all. If you're going for a more complex view of morality you could probably create a character that was all about drawing strengths from going to extremes. There's almost an unlimited number of ways that could work - you could make it a Barbarian varient that can fly into "Righteous" or "Dark" furies with differing bonuses and requiring different behaviours, or you could make it like a Psion or Psychic Warrior that has to manually "charge up" PP by committing extreme acts or indulging in certain vices / virtues. Or, for a twist, in a standard Dungeons and Dragons cosmology, you could play a Fighter who *thinks* he embodies both good and evil and regards himself as a Paladin / Backguard, but isn't. You could get mad at people when they refuse to look healthier after you lay hands on them. Thanks for the ideas, I'm sure they would satisfy most D&D players with a similar goal, however I have my heart and mind set on the complete union of holy and unholy. Both in terms of power, lore, race (already have that one worked out), abilities, et cetera. If D&D cosmotology, allignment, or what have you precludes this, then I'll simply ignore them. I suppose this will drop me out of favor with most d&d purists, but that's fine with me. If wizards doesn't see fit to make a class of this nature, then i'll do my best to make one myself.
Jaxgaret 12-05-05, 12:29 AM	Thanks for the ideas, I'm sure they would satisfy most D&D players with a similar goal, however I have my heart and mind set on the complete union of holy and unholy. Both in terms of power, lore, race (already have that one worked out), abilities, et cetera. If D&D cosmotology, allignment, or what have you precludes this, then I'll simply ignore them. The D&D world does indeed preclude this, as Good and Evil are opposites. I'm not even really sure what you want your character to be - it seems like you basically want either a character with dissociative identity disorder (what used to be known as multiple personality disorder) with personality crossover identification and knowledge ~ or what you're trying to do is a regular vanilla True Neutral character. I suppose this will drop me out of favor with most d&d purists, but that's fine with me. If wizards doesn't see fit to make a class of this nature, then i'll do my best to make one myself. It's called a True Neutral Druid. I also liked the other poster's idea of a Cleric with the Good and Evil Domains.
Two Rivers Wolfbrother 12-05-05, 02:16 AM	I would say that even if there isn't a system that allows for such a class or character, you could still do it, but it would have to be in roleplaying, not game functions. For examples: A wizard who uses necromancy and other often-seen-as-cruel/evil-spells and methods to bring about good ends. What if he brought an undead creature and tortured a nobleman to death to rescue a kidnapped girl and donated the reward money to the poor. A barbarian who is fighting for the freedom of his loved ones, but on the battlefield he is a cruel and heartless war machine with no discretion other than "Don't kill allies." See, it's in HOW you play the character, not the class. I reckon you would have to ignore alignments for this, or claim neutrality.
a_psh 12-05-05, 02:35 AM	A character with both Good and Evil traits, particularly one who specifically wants to balance them, is Neutral... what's the issue here, exactly? If you're looking for something with divine spellcasting, why not just play a Neutral cleric? You could certainly try Good and Evil domains, as suggested, though that's not strictly necessary as there are plenty [Good] and [Evil] typed non-domain spells, anyway (though you don't really need to even be casting those a lot if you're just interested in the flavor to begin with). If you want a more martial character like the blackguard, make a fighter/cleric. It may not seem exciting, but, really, the core already covers this with a simply Neutral character.
TheHeckler 12-07-05, 02:17 AM	it seems like you basically want either a character with dissociative identity disorder (what used to be known as multiple personality disorder) with personality crossover identification and knowledge ~ or what you're trying to do is a regular vanilla True Neutral character. Neither, my character will have only 1 personality (although he may at times act as though he had more than 1) and no, he is not at all neutral. It's called a True Neutral Druid. I also liked the other poster's idea of a Cleric with the Good and Evil Domains. The druid wouldn't come even remotely close. The cleric with good and evil domains wouldn't be too far off the mark, but just doesn't symbolize how I want to play the character. I don't want my character to be devoted to any deity(-ies). And although I want him to be both martial and caster, it doesn't quite reflect that personality or play mechanics I'm looking for. It seems that wizards simply didn't anticipate such a class as the one I'm looking for; either that or they decided it would conflict too much with 3.5 standards. Actually, now that I think of it...if any of you have seen the recent commercials for 'Prince of Persia 3: The Two Thrones' - the protagonist in that game is very similar to the character I'm trying to create. The only real difference would be that there is only 1 soul in the person and he is striving to keep the opposing forces in constant balance, rather than switching between good/evil on the fly. To give a bit of a background story he will have both celestial and demonic blood in him (or at least the powers and influence of such a bloodline) ...both equally strong, and not watered down like the Genasis’. He's not quite the typical offspring of a demon and angel that has sorta been done to death already (little Nicky anyone?) but for all intensive purposes he might as well be. I would say that even if there isn't a system that allows for such a class or character, you could still do it, but it would have to be in role-playing, not game functions. I intend to create my character using this system in both role-playing and game functions. Even if those functions will have to be in house. the core already covers this with a simply Neutral character No sir, it doesn't...the description for a neutral character doesn't even come close as a matter of fact. --- I don't mean to be rude, please don't interpret my responses that way. I just wanted to be clear that the normal route of alignment and good/evil balancing simply does not work for the character I'm creating. If anyone knows who originally posted that custom class that Anshin Mandango mentioned - "Master of Heaven and Hell" - please tell me. I'd like to see his/her template...the title of the class alone tells me it might be exactly what I'm looking for.
Eraleas 12-07-05, 05:11 AM	What you are trying to do is kinda impossible in DnD due to the Alignment system.You cannot be a Paladin and Blackguard at once for instance. Let's reconsider our options... You say that the character is of Celestial and Demonic blood; he is probabaly inclined towards neutrality. If he's Chaotic as well, he will probably have surges of both, being able to murder someone, as easily as to sacrifice himself for that person... Scanning throught Heroes of Horror I noticed the Corrupted Avenger PrC which is a person dedicated to avenge a friend but ends up completely tainted in the end. This could be a choice. A neutral necromancer, could work for you; according to all, necromancy is a Dark Art and is considered evil. Specializing in necromantic debuffing spells (instead of undead creation ones) could be a neutral path though. Talk with your DM about what you could do, about what he will let you do. You could probably be allowed to make a Sorcerer/Exalted Arcanist/Fiend-Blooded which however strange may sound, could be allowed in some exceptional cases...
TheHeckler 12-07-05, 03:05 PM	What you are trying to do is kinda impossible in DnD due to the Alignment system. That's why I won't be following the normal rules of alignment...I've already discussed with my DM that my character will most likely not adhere to any one alignment. You cannot be a Paladin and Blackguard at once for instance. Sure you can...you may be breaking some of the rules in the process, but in all honesty there's nothing stopping you. Assuming the DM allows it of course. You say that the character is of Celestial and Demonic blood; he is probably inclined towards neutrality. The PHB describes neutrality as not having a strong inclination one way or another. My character will have strong feelings and urges on many issues (and often opposing ones at that). One day he may help save a little girl out of a burning building...the very next day he may slit her throat (for no other reason than the pull of one force overpowering the other at different times). This is hardly 'neutral' by the book's description...neutral would be to walk the girl completely indifferent as to what happens to her (I'm sure there's room for a tilt one way or the other, but it's usually minimal). I just haven't decided if I'm going to make those decisions myself or use a die roll to determine how my character will react. If he's Chaotic as well, he will probably have surges of both, being able to murder someone, as easily as to sacrifice himself for that person... he'll have surges of law and chaos just as he'll have surges of good and evil. In all honesty my character will be one of contradictions, but you probably surmised that much already. Scanning throught Heroes of Horror I noticed the Corrupted Avenger PrC which is a person dedicated to avenge a friend but ends up completely tainted in the end. This could be a choice. Thanks, but not what I'm looking for. This is a person that starts down a path of good intentions but arrives at evil and corruption. I want my character to harbor both at the same time. [edit] Giving the class a second look, it isn't too far off the mark and does incoperate some of the aspects I want to employ. But, it still isn't exactly what I'm looking for, thanks for the suggestion though. A neutral necromancer, could work for you; according to all, necromancy is a Dark Art and is considered evil. Specializing in necromantic debuffing spells (instead of undead creation ones) could be a neutral path though. same as above. Talk with your DM about what you could do, about what he will let you do. I've already had talks with him...he knows I always play an outlandish character, and they never fit the 'norm', so he gives me a bit more leeway than some other DM's would (warning, I'm about to go off topic here). He originally said no sorcerers in his campaign because he believes they are gimp compared to wizards, and in his campaign sorcerers are disliked anyway. I wanted a rogue/sorcerer, he said 'you'll have less power, and most of the NPC's will probably treat you like dirt'. I told him that's fine...I got the class I wanted and played similarly to shadowfoot's 'jester' class. Eventually one of my own party members killed my character off because I was too annoying. That's fine...I had fun, no regrets. My next char was a Tiefling barbarian...yup, my DM said it too "you know, Tieflings don't really make good barbarians stats wise, and it really doesn't fit their personality. You sure you want one?" - Yup...I was a 6' 10" Tiefling barbarian who was chaotic good...everyone laughed (including the NPC's) The point I'm trying to make I suppose is it's fairly normal for me to bend the rules if not break them completely. If there's a way to keep to the rules and do what I want I'm all for it. If not, well...I think I've already made that clear. ;) In truth my character will probably die sooner, rather than later due to his unpredictability...if that is his fate then so be it, it's a risk I'm willing to take in order to play unrestricted.
rogerd 12-07-05, 03:53 PM	If you're just going to make it all up, you're free to do that. I doubt you'll get any help from Wizards though. I do think you fundamentally don't understand the alignment system as written. It is clear to me that your character is neutral. That's a perfectly reasonable choice. You could certainly play a neutral cleric. I think you'd have to have a neutral diety as your patron - independent clerics can't be neutral if I read it correctly. I'd consider going with two elemental domains and you would be free to cast any good or evil (or lawful, or chaotic) spells as you wish. There may be some feats or prestige classes available to you eventually that will get you where you want to be, or you could always make one up and get your DM to approve it. Out of curiousity, what kind of abilities are you looking to have with the good and evil?
epyondrowhunter 12-07-05, 04:21 PM	yeah um the traditional druid. true neutral just like in the old days
mhacdebhandia 12-07-05, 06:34 PM	This whole thread discusses alignment in a way not reflective of the rules. Alignment describes. If you sometimes do helpful and generous things and sometimes selfish and hurtful things, you're probably neutral. Writing "Chaotic Good" on your character sheet is a statement of intent as to how you will play the character, not a choice of a box you have to restrict your character within. A paladin must act in a manner consistent with Lawful Good because her code of behaviour is generally in line with Lawful Good. There is a lot more to the Lawful Good alignment than the paladin's code, too - they are held to a high standard of behaviour, whereas your "average" hero can act in a way which exhibits a belief that social order and self-sacrifice for the welfare of the multitude are important concepts to live by, and be counted as Lawful Good because of those beliefs, not because his player's choosing to write Lawful Good on the character sheet signs the PC up to obey the rules of some team. Alignment is only legitimately used to describe the general attitudes of a character as deduced from her actions. You don't lose experience points for changing alignment these days, like you used to do in earlier editions of AD&D; just because you wrote "Good" on your sheet doesn't mean you can't behave selfishly. If you behave selfishly in a consistent manner then "Neutral" or "Evil" will better describe the character and your alignment shifts accordingly, but it is never legitimate to say "You wouldn't do that, you're Good" - you can say "Good people don't do that sort of thing", but that too is a descriptive statement rather than a proscription. Alignment is too often treated as simplistic. Lawful characters don't necessarily obey every law they encounter - what use has a paladin for laws which oppress the innocent according to the whims of a tyrant? Chaotic characters don't necessarily break every law they can - why would they not approve of laws which guarantee freedoms and liberty? Evil characters are not necessarily cruel at all times, and good characters will not necessarily put themselves in harm's way to save one undeserving. That said - what sort of character attempts to serve two masters who abhor each other? It is a very strange sort of philosophy to attempt to balance out charitable, noble actions with cruel, villainous behaviour; I think it is clear that such a character cannot have a true allegiance with the multiversal forces of Good and Evil, because deities, celestials, and fiends would have no reason to voluntarily empower such a character - and the theft of power is the domain of vile characters such as the ur-priest. The alternative, however, is a character who serves a philosophy of balance. Clerics of philosophies exist and prove that it's possible to associate oneself with the metaphysical poles of alignment without the patronage of powerful beings; a character who seeks to create or preserve a balance between Good and Evil might well draw upon the metaphysical wellsprings of each to accomplish their work - blessing and cursing, healing and withering, protecting and destroying. I'm not convinced it's a particularly strong character concept, but it's somewhat viable.
INeedNoSalt 12-07-05, 06:35 PM	Pick a class. Pick a race. Set your alignment as 'neutral.' Play your character as a completely insane sort of guy who is completely disassociated from the world around him. That's what you want, right? No, you're not going to find any classes or prestige classes that cater to your urge to play an entirely contradictory character.
quaziquest 12-08-05, 12:08 AM	Cleric/paladin of one god, Favored soul/Warlock of another. By mutual consent of the Gods in Question. To stave off an invasion by completely alien and non alingned/non neutral beings from another world, who will be getting here about the time you go epic, oh Chosen One....
Wayfarer 12-08-05, 12:58 AM	A good-aligned character with the Evil subtype, or an evil-aligned character with the Good subtype, would effectively be both good and evil at the same time. If you could somehow get both subtypes I suppose you would embody both at once - you would Detect as both, anyway, and that's really the same thing. An Evil/Good outsider has an aura identical to a cleric of the same alignment. Figure out a way to pick up those subtypes, and play a Neutral Cleric with both Good and Evil domains, who worships Balance. That's as close as you can come to embodying both at the same time.
wkndwor13 12-08-05, 03:46 AM	Dude, i completl understand where you are coming from, and I'm willing to go with you on the rule breaking. rules of dnd are ment to be broken. lets roll up the lselaves and make a f... character. K, the whole prince of persia thing works really well. make your character, but make two character, opposed alignmetns. lawful good choatic evil. So then have some trigger that switches him like teh hulk thing. Say hes a paladin, and somewon triggers his evil side and he flipps in to the balck gaurd and does something way bad, when he flips back he atones for the evil in fits of piety. the adventure hooks are endles because hed be always fixing the messes he made. But thats one idea. Alignment rules out teh window, do you want a character who worships both sides of teh coin, then ignore alignment. Play teh character as if he is sent by the gods (in his mind) all the gods. every alignment. so he'd have to pray to all teh gods of evil, good and nuetrl, after ll they all excist. no act is to heinus if he balances out the act. infact, make him whatever alignment you want. play him good most of the time, but he needs to kill a whole village, so he does. after that he needs to swing the pendulum back with a good deed. Class really doesn't matter. play whatever you want, but wizard sounds sic, and the cleric idea is prob your best bet for full flavor, with good and evil domains. hey, hope that helps a little. And forum poeple, don't discuss the rules of everything. try to help teh people. he wasn't asking your opionion on wether or not he could do it, he was asking if anyone knew how to do it. if you don't know how, shut up. its his character, and he isn't you. (her?) its late and i don't know what i'm taking about. goodnight.
TheHeckler 12-08-05, 04:20 AM	Dude, i completl understand where you are coming from, and I'm willing to go with you on the rule breaking. rules of dnd are ment to be broken. lets roll up the lselaves and make a f... character. K, the whole prince of persia thing works really well. make your character, but make two character, opposed alignmetns. lawful good choatic evil. So then have some trigger that switches him like teh hulk thing. Say hes a paladin, and somewon triggers his evil side and he flipps in to the balck gaurd and does something way bad, when he flips back he atones for the evil in fits of piety. the adventure hooks are endles because hed be always fixing the messes he made. But thats one idea. Alignment rules out teh window, do you want a character who worships both sides of teh coin, then ignore alignment. Play teh character as if he is sent by the gods (in his mind) all the gods. every alignment. so he'd have to pray to all teh gods of evil, good and nuetrl, after ll they all excist. no act is to heinus if he balances out the act. infact, make him whatever alignment you want. play him good most of the time, but he needs to kill a whole village, so he does. after that he needs to swing the pendulum back with a good deed. Class really doesn't matter. play whatever you want, but wizard sounds sic, and the cleric idea is prob your best bet for full flavor, with good and evil domains. hey, hope that helps a little. And forum poeple, don't discuss the rules of everything. try to help teh people. he wasn't asking your opionion on wether or not he could do it, he was asking if anyone knew how to do it. if you don't know how, shut up. its his character, and he isn't you. (her?) its late and i don't know what i'm taking about. goodnight. LMAO...after reading the first sentence or two I fully expected you to start bashing me for not being a rules purist...gladly, I was wrong. I appreciate the fact that you have a pretty good grasp of where I'm coming from in this regard. The cleric seems to be the closest thing the rules will allow...but as previously mentioned I don't want my character to be religious...i want him to be able to draw holy/unholy powers innately like a sorcerer does with arcane magic. To give an example here are two abilities I was going to give my character as racial abilities. While writing these abilities (among others) I realized that he would have to have an ECL of somewhere around a +8 (ok, maybe a little exaggerated, but you get the idea). To try and compensate for him being over powered I put a minimum character level requirement on most of his abilities. Of course, he'd still be overpowered, and I decided it would be better to find a class (or make one as I’ll probably end up doing) that I could work these abilities in to. Anyway, here are a couple of abilities that I thought up that I believe would really fit his type of character. Celestial Embrace - May perform a celestial ritual requiring L’ous Nrot to shed his blood, in addition to uttering a specific chant (1 full round action). If L’ous Nrot is not interrupted, he restores his life to full (If interrupted it negates all effects of the ability). The cost of this ritual is a loss of 500XP x character level. Immediately after neutralizing all known threats, this ritual causes L’ous Nrot’s alignment to involuntarily change to chaotic good for a period of 24 hours, or until he enters a trance (whichever happens first). L’ous Nrot will value life of all living things to the highest decree, and will attempt to stop anyone from hurting another. In order for him to voluntarily enter his meditative trance, he must make a DC 20 will save. (This ability is attained when L’ous Nrot reaches character level 8) Demonic Embrace - May perform a demonic ritual requiring L’ous Nrot to shed his blood in addition to uttering a specific chant (1 full round action). If he is not interrupted, he may restore all magic power currently spent (If interrupted it negates all effects of the ability). The cost of this ritual is a loss of 500XP x Character level. Immediately after neutralizing all known threats, this ritual causes L’ous Nrot’s alignment to involuntarily change to lawful evil for a period of 24 hours, or until he enters a trance (whichever happens first). L’ous Nrot will consider himself to be superior to all other sentient beings. He will lie, cheat, steal, destroy or kill if he believes there is something worthwhile to be attained by it. In order for L’ous Nrot to voluntarily enter his meditative trance during this time he must make a DC 20 will save (This ability is attained when L’ous Nrot reaches character level 8) I'm sure they aren't perfect and need a little tweaking still, but I'm pretty happy with their effects. I hope this shines a little more light on why I firmly believe that a 'neutral' alignment simply doesn't cut it. wkndwor13 was right on the money when he said I'm looking for help "how to do it" and not "if I could do it", or "you can't do that, but try this instead". Basically, if there's anyone reading this who feels up to the challenge of writing a template for what I'm trying to do, I'll be sure to dance at your wedding. And if that doesn't do it for ya, I'll split my winnings with ya the next time I win the lottery ;)
mordeus 12-08-05, 05:53 AM	I am happy there are other people who like this "bending" of the rules like i do but we shouldnt forget that without the rules the game loses all its fun and excitement.i tried like yourself to create such a character but using the existing and classic races/classes.so here is what i created and i hope it ll help you: i dont think the race important because every race has the same potentials.However i believe humans are the best fit class for your/our character.So human! As for the class, my character is a chaotic neutral cleric with no deity.In a book (i think book of exalted deeds) i read that a cleric without a deity believes in a certain way of life that is driven by his domains.So i chose death domain and healing domain (my dm wouldnt let choose good-bad domain together because of the restrictions:a cleric than can cast a spell with the good description cannot cast an evil spell and vice versa.(Healing isnt a good spell)) By choosing these domains, the character basically believes in both death-necromany (inflict/animate dead etc) and in healing-helping (cure/resurect).he is perfectly allright with the rules even if its abnormal the fact that the same character is able to resurect and animate dead. For the role playing part, a character like this is mainly an egomaniac but not with the meaning that he cares only for himself.He is selfish because he does whatever HE thinks is right.He tortures his victims,he forces his will to anyone,he destroys but whenever HE thinks he must be good, he treats everyone, he even gives his life for them but only because he believes in it.Not because it is consider good act.Unfortunatelly he must have an inclination because he must choose between spontaneous inflict or cure.i chose inflict for no special reason.However you must know that being a cleric means that some god gives you powers for a reason.you may not know the reason but the dm must know it and if you stop fulfilling this reason your god may stop giving powers. thats it. :)
MJ the Prophet 12-08-05, 07:11 AM	As a side note, the gestalt system provides a chance to do just this. One of my players wanted to be a dread necromancer/healer. I wouldn't let him, due to the alignment restrictions of "any good" and "any non-good." However, he's still playing out the character with a dread necromancer/favored soul, doing most of the healer list with the favored soul. He's lawful neutral, and it's turning out to be a fun character to watch.
Bobothebard 12-08-05, 07:25 AM	I tried this once, did not work for me but......it was a lot of fun A hexblade( wich can be chaotic good, although it is VERY unusual) and the Holy liberator class. nice and funny
MistWolf 12-08-05, 07:46 AM	Maybe what you're looking for is a way to roleplay sin and redemption. The character sins, then feels remorse for his actions, repents and makes restitution. If he steals from a rich shop keeper, he will seek to pay that shop keeper back. If he steals from a poor shop keeper, he will feel remorse for the theft and the emotional pain as what is stolen from a poor shop keeper is more likely to put him out of business. Murder- that is the taking of an innocent life is one that cannot be made up for, as you cannot make complete restitution. You could offer your own life in exchange, but that still does not replace the life of the dead. This is reality. In D&D, we have resurection. If he murders, (using this philosophy of play) he must seek to have his victim resurected to balance what he did. As a "commoner" is a "0" level character- losing a level at ressurection or raise dead (unsure of exact mechanics) would prevent that person from coming back. He'd have to be careful as to who he murdered to balance out his actions. Using this philosophy, you can't kill a beggar in this alley and save the miller's daughter from death in the next, as that beggar is still dead and the millers' daughter may have survived without you- this does not balance out. Also, this gives your character a structure to work with- He will perform evil, but he will feel remorse and make restitution for his acts. That will give you a certain boundary as you will not do something that cannot be paid for, as that will make you more evil than good. What keeps him from becoming truly good is that he never repents- that is, if he burns a village, then pays to have it rebuilt and for the pain & suffering this act caused, it doesn't stop him from doing it again. He's been forgiven, which restores balance, but it doesn't stop him from doing evil again. This doesn't work unless the character truly believes this is what he must do. If it's simply a question of philosphy- "I raze, therfore I raise"- it's simply another face of true neutral or more accurately, "Denial Evil"
Phantom Llama 12-08-05, 08:01 AM	The character is True Neutral. If he does equal amounts of behaviour according to each alignment, he averages out to True Neutral. Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive, if I may be forgiven a tritism.
ibitak84 12-08-05, 10:49 AM	The cleric with good and evil domains wouldn't be too far off the mark, but just doesn't symbolize how I want to play the character. I don't want my character to be devoted to any deity(-ies). And although I want him to be both martial and caster, it doesn't quite reflect that personality or play mechanics I'm looking for. Clerics don't have to be devoted to deities, unless the DM's campaign wants it so. If you can get away with a neutral cleric with the Good and Evil domains, I'm sure making him godless isn't much of a problem, too. As for the mechanics: I just suggest multiclassing.
wkndwor13 12-08-05, 01:44 PM	alright,go with the sorcoror class or wizard class. Or a variation of both, if thats what you want. I think that teh prince of persai thing is the best way to go, and it sorta looks like thats what you want anyways. (with the trance and everything) But i also agree with whoever said race doesn't matter. But then it does if you want him to have both celestail and demonic forces in him. something that might be fun is to give him the celestail and demonic templets, the ones that increase the el by like +2, whatever is the lower ones, i know theres two but i'm not looking at abook right know. (fiendish and celestail?) then make the "base creature" a human that doesn't get anything for being human (in other words no extra feat, and no extra skill pionts). I like teh flavor of the embrace, but as well as damaging his xp, have it hit his health as well, 1d2 pionts of con damage (he his slicing his wrist or something right? "shed his blood"?) I'm kinda liking the whole prince of persai thing, and with that what you might do include the embrace thing as a racial thing, then make two classes. one guy a warlock from the new arcana book (there are pretty sweet if you havn't checked them out) and have the other side be battle sorcoror (so both sides of the coin can wear armour and you don't have to worry about profieciency switching back and forth) Make your overall HD d7 and use a calculator to roll (i think battle sorcors gete a D8, i know warlcoks get a 6). The only issue is that to switch you have to lose so much xp. so why not have the embraces be one way, but there also be another way, such as he sees something realy evil and it makes his stumic churn and he switched to fight evil with evil. to switch back make it a will save and a time limit. at higher ish level maybe he can control both sides to teh piont that he can willing go from one side tot he other with a will save. he understands teh two sides of him and uses whay=t ever is approprait. If you don't like the two coin thing, then take a base class and change it. i'm not sure about what other abilities you might want... protection from evil and good as aspell like ability? detect evil and good? personaly i like classes that make spells cast at will (like the warlock or others) maybe give him something like that. or a slower progression of spells with some spells he can use at will. At higher levels give him unholy blight and whatever the mirror is (not holding a book) or at first level give him teh eldrich blast ability but make it celestail blast if hes good at teh time. the possibilites are endless.