Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dragonmaster892005 05-15-07, 12:59 AM	ok i was playing a wizard and my campaign group where many different things we started having arena battles well i went up agianst a warblade i got initative i used ghoul touch to paralyze him he tries to use iron heart surge ( which in beginning of manuvers says you cant use stances or manuvers if you cant move) when paralyzed can he use iron heart surge to try and free himself (even tho when paralyzed you cant move or act) ????????
Tempest Stormwind 05-15-07, 01:13 AM	ok i was playing a wizard and my campaign group where many different things we started having arena battles well i went up agianst a warblade i got initative i used ghoul touch to paralyze him he tries to use iron heart surge ( which in beginning of manuvers says you cant use stances or manuvers if you cant move) when paralyzed can he use iron heart surge to try and free himself (even tho when paralyzed you cant move or act) ????????He can't use Iron Heart Surge if he's paralyzed because you must be able to move to initiate maneuvers. Your wizard is safe -- not that there was ever any doubt about it because this is a WIZARD in an ARENA against a MELEE type who WON INITIATIVE. Of course, you were also silly and went into melee against him; even with Ghoul Touch this is a phenominally risky thing to do (ESPECIALLY since that's a Fortitude save NEGATES effect against a warrior!). This is one of the stupider things about Iron Heart Surge, actually, as using it in this context would *perfectly* fit exactly what Iron Heart Surge is claiming it represents. Or haven't you seen Conan? (There are some things it shouldn't be able to do, like end area spell effects. However, ending paralysis or stun would probably be something it should be able to do.) You gambled and won, he gets his throat slit next round by your coup de grace.
dragonmaster892005 05-15-07, 01:42 AM	[QUOTE=Tempest Stormwind;12400311]He can't use Iron Heart Surge if he's paralyzed because you must be able to move to initiate maneuvers. Your wizard is safe -- not that there was ever any doubt about it because this is a WIZARD in an ARENA against a MELEE type who WON INITIATIVE. Of course, you were also silly and went into melee against him; even with Ghoul Touch this is a phenominally risky thing to do (ESPECIALLY since that's a Fortitude save NEGATES effect against a warrior!). QUOTE] actually reread the spell the fort save isnt for the paralyzed effect but the sickened effect for other things in area there is no save against paralyze for ghoul touch so if i touch it is a garentee they are paralyzed warrior or not! massive spell for second level
Tempest Stormwind 05-15-07, 01:52 AM	actually reread the spell the fort save isnt for the paralyzed effect but the sickened effect for other things in area there is no save against paralyze for ghoul touch so if i touch it is a garentee they are paralyzed warrior or not! massive spell for second levelSpell says Fortitude Negates, not Fortitude Partial. "Negates" is defined as "The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw" according to the SRD. If he made his save, he wouldn't be paralyzed. The second note of Fortitude Negates is for the spell's secondary effect, which isn't actually used on the target and only appears if the target fails his saving throw. A touch attack that auto-PARALYZES for 3-8 rounds (note: Any paralysis longer than 1 round is worthless; they're dead before the timer can tick to 2 rounds) is IMPOSSIBLY strong.
Deep Blue 9000 05-15-07, 04:21 AM	Mr. Stormwind is right about the paralysis effect of ghoul touch allowing a save. I'm really disappointed by Iron Heart Surge. When I first saw it I thought it was a great idea that was long overdue for melee. But the mechanics for it just aren't panning out: it seems like it only works against the effects it probably shouldn't.
Karla 05-15-07, 07:11 AM	Alas I think Tempest sums it up perfectly. It's exactly the sort of effect that it probably ought to work on - "by drawing on your mental strength and physical fortitude, you break free of a debilitating state that might otherwise defeat you". But the rules are quite explicit: "To initiate a maneuver, you must be able to move". However if it did affect things like paralysis or domination then it might be overpowered next to the 5th level Iron Heart Focus which only allows a second chance to save (though noting that that's an immediate rather than standard action so not costing you an attack). I suppose one could always devise a higher level (6th? 7th?) Iron Heart maneuver which does let you throw off any and all debilitating effects - though one would have to find some way around the "must be able to move" rule, either by exception or by making it an immediate action executed simultaneously with the effect hitting you.
Batshido 05-15-07, 07:32 AM	I suppose one could always devise a higher level (6th? 7th?) Iron Heart maneuver which does let you throw off any and all debilitating effects - though one would have to find some way around the "must be able to move" rule, either by exception or by making it an immediate action executed simultaneously with the effect hitting you. Or just rework Iron Heart Surge to be useable while paralyzed/stunned and to only remove status effects and negative modifiers from YOU. Allow the rest of the spell/effect/whatever to act normally, but it's effects on you end immediately and don't come back until someone recasts or whatever. I'm pretty sure that was the flavor they were going for, but for whatever reason they failed to implement it properly. Iron Heart Surge is one of the few dark spots in the shining beacon of melee's salvation that is the ToB
fatal error 05-15-07, 01:30 PM	Yeah, I think it is just a very tricky maneuver to get into words. In my mind, it was meant to dispel short-term "per encounter" effects that were affecting the warblade.