Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maxxim 06-12-06, 02:09 PM	I skimmed the first 10 pages or so of the class forum, and didn't see any headings mentioning the Beguiler. Is it a general consensus that the class is a waste of time? It looks kind of interesting to me, but it doesn't look like there's much interest. What's the deal?
Witch 06-12-06, 02:12 PM	The Beguiler is a great class, and I'm playing one as soon as my friend's new campaign starts :)
neth2 06-12-06, 02:30 PM	ive noticed that aswell ive posted about 5 beguiler threads and none of them get responses i love the beguiler im playing right now hes specializing in enchantment my dm already hates me and our duskblade
K 06-12-06, 03:00 PM	What's the deal? The deal is that the Beguiler is quite possibly he most powerful class ever written, but it is also a class that is almost completely optimized already with little or not input from the player. You put your best attribute in Intelligence and your second best into Charisma, and then you grab the social skills and some stealth skills and the Search/Disable Device tree and then you've pretty much run through even your formiddable skill points. And now the class pretty much plays itself as far as advancement goes. You get the very favorable Warmage casting rules, except that instead of having Warmage spells (which are bad), you have an extremely versatile collection of of divinations, battlefield control, and save-or-die shenanigans to pull that allow you to dominate any kind of encounter you'll ever be in. At 2nd level, you have a charm person that lasts more than 10 rounds and a diplomacy modifier of more than +10 (5 ranks, +2 synergy from Bluff, +2 synergy from Sense Motive, and any Charisma modifier at all). That means that you charm an enemy Orc and it counts as Friendly, and then you take 10 on your Diplomacy check (DC 20) to make it Helpful. You can just take and keep the orcs you encounter starting fron 2nd level. You have all the good battlefield control, so you can keep a golem wrapped up indefinitely. you have all the good divinations so you can solve any mystery. You have all the brutal killer spells like color spray at 1st level. You even have the Traps ability so even if there aren't any enemies at all you are the rockstar of the group. --- And to top it all off, this is the default for the class. There's nothing to say about them, nothing to add. Their actual abilities are not good, so there's not much of a reason to stay in the class, but the 6 skill points a level is hard to give up. Honestly, there's not much reason to do anything but just take Beguiler Levels one after another and bask in the fact that you actually do have an extremely effective answer for any problem. And that doesn't generate a heap of conversation. Someone says "I'm going to play a Beguiler!" and everyone else just shrugs and says "Well, I guess you win D&D then! Good for you!" There are no pitfalls to avoid, no secrets to unearth. You just have automatic spontaneous access to 60% of the powerful standard Wizard spells, and that's enough to put you over the top in almost any conceivable situation.
lukelightning 06-12-06, 03:10 PM	I'd certainly consider playing it, especially if I was too slow to call "not it!" when the DM says "everyone pick a class for the new game, who's going to be the rogue?" (stupid trap rules!) Just watch out for undead.
Maxxim 06-12-06, 03:34 PM	The deal is that the Beguiler is quite possibly he most powerful class ever written, but it is also a class that is almost completely optimized already with little or not input from the player. You put your best attribute in Intelligence and your second best into Charisma, and then you grab the social skills and some stealth skills and the Search/Disable Device tree and then you've pretty much run through even your formiddable skill points. And now the class pretty much plays itself as far as advancement goes. You get the very favorable Warmage casting rules, except that instead of having Warmage spells (which are bad), you have an extremely versatile collection of of divinations, battlefield control, and save-or-die shenanigans to pull that allow you to dominate any kind of encounter you'll ever be in. At 2nd level, you have a charm person that lasts more than 10 rounds and a diplomacy modifier of more than +10 (5 ranks, +2 synergy from Bluff, +2 synergy from Sense Motive, and any Charisma modifier at all). That means that you charm an enemy Orc and it counts as Friendly, and then you take 10 on your Diplomacy check (DC 20) to make it Helpful. You can just take and keep the orcs you encounter starting fron 2nd level. You have all the good battlefield control, so you can keep a golem wrapped up indefinitely. you have all the good divinations so you can solve any mystery. You have all the brutal killer spells like color spray at 1st level. You even have the Traps ability so even if there aren't any enemies at all you are the rockstar of the group. --- And to top it all off, this is the default for the class. There's nothing to say about them, nothing to add. Their actual abilities are not good, so there's not much of a reason to stay in the class, but the 6 skill points a level is hard to give up. Honestly, there's not much reason to do anything but just take Beguiler Levels one after another and bask in the fact that you actually do have an extremely effective answer for any problem. And that doesn't generate a heap of conversation. Someone says "I'm going to play a Beguiler!" and everyone else just shrugs and says "Well, I guess you win D&D then! Good for you!" There are no pitfalls to avoid, no secrets to unearth. You just have automatic spontaneous access to 60% of the powerful standard Wizard spells, and that's enough to put you over the top in almost any conceivable situation. When you put it that way, it doesn't really sound like so much fun. I'd rather be really, really good at one or two things, and rely on the team for the rest.
Lokathor 06-12-06, 03:49 PM	Well, two basic paths:: upclose spellcaster: Lv1:Combat Expertise Human: Spell Focus(Enchantment) Lv3: Spell Focus(Illusion) Lv6: Improved Feint ... Ranged spellcaster: 1: SF(Ench) H: SF(Illus) ... No, really though, the class is prepackaged goodness like K says.
psionichamster 06-12-06, 04:04 PM	in response to K: yes, they are quite nice. i am playing a gnomish beguiler in Eberron right now. (1st session this past saturday, in fact) he is quite the little charmer, and is specializing in illusions, mostly (what with the gnomish DC increase, cloaked casting, and SF: illusion at 3rd lvl, and all). now, i disagree w/ the "you win DnD" comment. sure, he can talk to people. he can lie/cheat/and (kinda) steal pretty much anything. (if i wanted to) combined w/ the Mark of Scribing, he is the penultimate entertainment lawyer/agent type, which is how i am playing him. but, limitations include: low HD (as rogue...if your color spray/ charm person fails, you're now a rather squishy target for selfsame orcs) Mind-affecting spells. anything immune to them renders you pretty well screwed...undead, golems, and certain outsiders will result in my flight, rather quickly good skills, but highly desireable skill list. even w/ an 18 int (which i have), i can't take everything i want. so, spot and listen take a hit (for now), as i need to be both the "talker" and trapfinder of the party. now, while he is nice and fun to play, the power level is no greater than a well-designed bard would be, in my hands. (d6 hd, cha-casting, bardic music, bardic knowledge, similar spells, light armor, food will AND ref, and similar wpn profs) basically, beguiler gets trapfinding, and sole-stat priority in place of music and a good ref. save. and i don't see many people saying "OMG, teh bard is teh brokenest!!!" (of course, they should see my 15th lvl human bard w/ action surge and heroic spirit...nothing like moving, starting music, then full-round casting a shaped whirling blade...) namaste' the hamster (btw, the aforementioned golem and battlefield control: he don't care that the floor is illusion-ed to look like fiery pits...and he is immune to your whelm spells, too!) h
K 06-12-06, 04:56 PM	low HD (as rogue...if your color spray/ charm person fails, you're now a rather squishy target for selfsame orcs) Uh... you're an arcane spellcaster wearing light armor. Cry me a river. Heck, you're a gnome, so you've got a Con Bonus and an AC bonus. So you've got about the same hit points as a Ranger and a better AC. I'm just not feeling your "limitations" there. Mind-affecting spells. anything immune to them renders you pretty well screwed...undead, golems, and certain outsiders will result in my flight, rather quickly Figments aren't mind affecting. In fact, they work the opposite way in D&D. In order to even get a Saving Throw, they need to touch the figment or Search the area. Search is intelligence based, so mindless creatures actually aren't even allowed to do it. So a mindless opponent only gets a save if you let them touch the figment. That means that if you put up a figment of something that a mindless creature is programmed to not touch (like a wall or a field of lava), they don't get a save. This also means that if you can move a figment out of their range faster than they can get to it (for example: they are in a solid fog, which you also know), they will move towards your figment each round and never get there and never get a save. Mindless creatures are pwned by figments, and Beguilers pwn at figments. The fact that Beguilers have a lot of spells that don't work on skeltons or golems at all seems like it puts the Beguilers are at a disadvantage. But actually, the Beguilers also have a couple of spells that completely pants these monsters and they can cast them spontaneously. The fact that the Beguiler only has a couple of tricks that will work against a Golem is meaningless because the Beguiler doesn't pay anything to switch to using those tricks, and those tricks are amazingly good at handling those problems. good skills, but highly desireable skill list. even w/ an 18 int (which i have), i can't take everything i want. so, spot and listen take a hit (for now), as i need to be both the "talker" and trapfinder of the party. So you're trying to pass off the fact that the Beguiler has one of the largest piles of skill points and the single best skill list ever as a drawback? No. That makes you awesome. The fact that you have more skill points than the other party members and so many good skills that you still run out of them without wasting any on Profession: Retail is not a drawback or a limitation at all. now, while he is nice and fun to play, the power level is no greater than a well-designed bard would be, in my hands. That might be true, but it speaks poorly of your handling of your Beguiler.
Osedox 06-12-06, 06:31 PM	I love the class as well, but am slightly concerned with a few matters. 1) Int based casting, although nice doesent fit the flavor of the class at all IMO 2) those crazy skill points plus your sooped up Int makes for way too many skills 3) True seeing and Mindblank could make you cry I am considering houseruling the class as a Cha based caster with 4+int skill points. I dont want to totaly nerf the class though so I am considering adding some sort of cap ability to make it all worthwhile. Any thoughts?
Kuraito 06-12-06, 07:04 PM	Personally, I'm a little miffed at how much stronger this class is then its dear dad, the warmage. I personally would like to change beguilers to casting with Cha(still 6+int skill points) and changing Warmage to casting with Int(leaving Edge to work off Int as well) to level the playing feild just a LITTLE. I also think it fits the flavor of each class much better (warmages really seem to be discribed more as Int casters as they ingrane there spells in their subconcious, Beguilers on the otherhand, just know how to use magical energy to manipulate people, more Cha). I'm in a game where we only have 3 people, a Beguiler, A Duskblade and a Spirit Shamen. So far, we havn't noticed we're missing a person.
psionichamster 06-12-06, 09:07 PM	well well, that figment bit is very interesting... had been playing that mindless creatures would simply ignore illusions, but it would seem to be the other way around... :devil: now i'm even better off... btw: That might be true, but it speaks poorly of your handling of your Beguiler. consider this. beguiler charms a monster at lvl 5. more than likely, he WILL become friendly in 1 action. now, you have a friend for 5 hours. compare to bard at 5th lvl. fascinates same creature (if not in battle already), THEN casts charm person on him. pretty well assured of success. not to mention, fascinate DC = perform check, which scales quite a bit faster than save bonuses, or DC of beguiler (even w/ high int, SF: enchantment, GSF: enchantment, cloaked casting) but, that's all academic. you know what a beguiler is NOT good at? healing, fighting in stand up melee, tossing off non-illusion/enchantment spells, etc. he can't "win" dnd any more than a fighter/wizard/rogue could. i'll leave CoDzilla out of this. i must not have been very clear in my above statments: yes, high-int and high SP/lvl = good time happy funfun. that's what drew me to the class, after all. but, it's not the be-all end-all of arcane magic, by any means. oh well, this ain't going anywhere namaste' the hamster
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-12-06, 09:30 PM	I was going to stay out of this, but seeing that made me decide otherwise. The deal is that the Beguiler is quite possibly he most powerful class ever written And later, when someone says they don't play it way overpowered... That might be true, but it speaks poorly of your handling of your Beguiler. I'm going to boil this down. K: Beguilers are overpowered. psionichampster: Not when I play them. K: You play them badly. Am I missing something?
Seeker of Undeath 06-12-06, 09:37 PM	Playing a goblin Beguiler has given me some hands on understanding of the little guys. They are quite strong, but as said they don't do everything. For the first several encounters I ruled all. The party couldn't have been happier for me being able to take down five or six guys by my self. Then came the encounters with intelligent undead. With expeditious retreat I could run around being a flanking buddy and using aid another on their attacks. Mage armor is proving to be a useless spell so far, but I have many other options. And if for some reason we do end up without our armor, I'll still have it in reserve. Just the same I'm thinking of taking Extra Spell to later get either Orb of Force or Force Missiles. The former is good out of the box, but the latter may scale better if we ever get near epic play. This'll leave me an option when a True Seeing Lich attacks.
neth2 06-12-06, 09:57 PM	the beguiler is not overpowered he is fun in his way and powerful in his way, but remember, almost every one of his spells requres a save right now there is a beguiler(me) and a warmage and we are both contributing to the party equally believe it or not one weakness im runnin into is like others said inteligent undead im tryin to plan for an encounter coming up the party is level 7, maybe 8 by then against a ecl 13 lich im mostly screwed i did figure out how the party is going to defeat it thanks to me, but it is still going to be hard and we are relying on a few things that if they get shut down we're screwed but, it sn't overpowered, but it is very fun and like everyone else, there aren't many other ways to go with it cause you usually have to take beguiler 20 or something close to it
Vaelan 06-12-06, 10:51 PM	That might be true, but it speaks poorly of your handling of your Beguiler. I'd say it speaks poorly of your handling and estimation of Bards.
neth2 06-12-06, 11:02 PM	we don't need to start a flame war here
Shedeo 06-13-06, 02:44 AM	Yes, I agree with neth2. Lets avoid a pointless flamewar. And I made the exact same modifications, Kuratio, because in the DnD games I run, there are Wizards, but no sorcerers. Instead, we just use these classes as our sorcerers (Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler). Sure, it kinda limits people that want spontanious wizard spells, but oh well. For those that want to play the heavy-hitting damage-based fight-in-melee type sorcerer (which usually doesnt work too well anyway) I just point them in the direction of the Duskblade nowadays. Beguilers are good, but like I said, I changed both the Beguiler and the Warmage to be a bit more even with each other. The Dread Necro, well, I love that class more than I should.
Osedox 06-13-06, 09:58 AM	I think exchanging Int based casting with the Warmange is a fine solution and I suppose that it balances out the 6+int skill points of the Beguiler, *Waves magic marker menicingly over book* "Consider it done!"
Feroz 06-13-06, 11:01 PM	I have to put my props in for the beguiler, after tonight's session playing one at just level 3. Starting off with combat, groups of 2HD half-orc barbarians attacking a caravan: Round 1: Sleep, 2 half-orcs drop Round 2: Sleep, 1 half-orc drops Round 3: catch 4 half-orcs in a color spray, 2 drop, unconscious,blind,stunned for 6 rounds, blind and stunned for 3 more, and then stunned for one more round Round 4: Whelm a badly hurt half-orc, it drops 4 rounds, and I personally have dropped 6 half-orc barbarians. Mind you it burned out all but 2 of my level 1 spells for the day, but damn can that guy help even some seriously nasty odds. :)
Aland 06-14-06, 01:54 AM	My opinion is that Beguiler definitely would not and could not replace the First Member and the Second Member in a Four Member Group(Cleric and Wizard, thank goodness WOTC hasn't published some silly&powerful&broken basic classes to replace them). As for the Rogue, I really think they would retire together as long as PHB II is open to the PCs. Beguiler has so many advantages that a Rogue doesn't have, most important of them the Spells. Yes, Mind-affecting and illusions might be a limitation, but let's not limit our spell choice to these spells. Haste, Slow, Stinking Cloud(which is stupidly put to the 2nd level for the Beguiler), Freedom of Movement, etc. At least a Beguiler could buff his/her teammates when there's nothing else for him to do. For a rogue it is impossible. And Use Magic Device? The Beguiler has already has so many good buffs, and he/she would mind being challenged by the much less powerful UMD. Oops, and don't forget a Beguiler has UMD too. And for skills, since a Beguiler is strongly dependent on INT, it would not make so much difference for a int 16 beguiler and a int 12 rogue (especially when it comes to 32 or 28 buy or even less, when you must consider other attributes as well). So that's why I was so amazed by PHB II's stupidility when I first got a chance to see how powerful ( overwhelming) a beguiler is and how balance, which has been tried hard to keep for so long a time, be shattered into pieces when it comes to economy.( I might be overraged, but I was really furious at that time, especially when I latter came to the Dragon Shaman and found the absolutely heaven-and-hell differences between it and Beguiler.) Thankfully all the DMs and PCs I met have already come to the agreement that, since PHB II is only a supplement resourse, (and partly because of some of the ridiculously broken rules), it would be OK to say that the most valuable thing in this book is the guide to role-playing, and the Class part is rather, in their words, "chaotic and shameful"( although we all agree that Knight is actually all right interesting and carefully balanced). EDIT:After all the nonsense above, my true opinion is that it's very unfair for rogues when a DM allow PCs to choose Beguiler.
zae 06-14-06, 02:49 AM	I think it's designed precisely for the following situation: DM: I like traps, and I'm filling the game with them regardless of what you all play. That being said, who's the rogue? All: Not me! DM: Well, I'm leaving the traps in, hope you have a lot of healing and poison immunities... Someone can go "Fine, I'll take the ability to find your stupid traps" and actually focus the majority of their abilities on something they actually like. See, really all it does is address the fact that few people like playing rogues (except for the high skill points, which are rarely game breaking but always nice to have), but rogues are the only core class that can detect traps. Because they have this magical ability to see things that are hidden really really well, or something. It's the choice I'd make. I hated every rogue-like character I ever played thus far (unless we include a bard and a courtier (the skill-based, social aspects, no sneak attack or trapfinding)) Having said that, WotC seem to be pimping Enchantment a lot. I think they realised that many people (back in the days of Evokation and Necromancy being the most popular) thought it sucked, so decided to give it great abilities. People didn't notice at first, so they gave it more. People then noticed, but WotC didn't realise and are still trying to make Enchantment really attractive (no pun intended). I wait to see how good it actually is though.
Todd 06-14-06, 10:28 AM	I agree that the Beguiler exists to give folks an option to play a non-rogue trapfinding class. It's also a base class replacement for an Arcane Trickster type enchanter. I like it! That said I do think that Cha based casting would have been both more flavorful & a better fit mechanically.
lukelightning 06-14-06, 11:31 AM	The problem is trapfinding. It is an incredibly akward mechanic that is just an artificial way to make the party have a rogue, and now they've made other classes with this ability, making the rogue even lamer. With magic, spellcasters can do "rogue" things better than rogues can with the sole exception of finding and disabling traps (though a cleric's find traps spell can be a substitute, and everyone knows the old summon monster to set off traps trick). And finding traps is nothing special; nobody says "wow, my rogue is cool, I can find traps that you can't!" especially when other classes are turning invisible, turning into dire wolves, and spider climbing. I think the rogue (and only rogue, not scout or beguiler or whatever) should have a "trap sixth sense" ability, similar to an elf's ability to find secret doors, allowing them a free search check when they are within 5' of a trap.
NineInchNall 06-14-06, 12:34 PM	The Beguiler is a base class worth taking straight through. To do that it has to be comparable to a typical optimized character that uses PrCs. Hence it ends up being a rather powerful class, but isn't that what we've all been clamoring for anyway: classes that hold up well without a deal of multiclassing? A Beguiler can contribute well in most situations, but it is such a narrowly focused character that the DM shouldn't feel helpless before its might, and the character never gains any abilities that make other characters obsolete (no more than any other caster, at least, and certainly less than some *coughClericcough*). Is it a fun class? Yes. Is it a powerful class? Yes. Is it more powerful than a well optimized character, even when well optimized itself?* No. Does it lessen the need for a Rogue? But of course. Are there things that give it trouble? Yes. Is it worth taking 20 levels? Yes. *As far as I can tell, the Beguiler does best when combined with things that increase its versatility, like Shadowcraft Mage, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, or Mage of the Arcane Order. Wizards and Sorcerers can make better use of the first; the second is (too?) good for everyone; and the third has the same result for Sorcerers and Warmages.
technochris81 06-20-06, 05:17 AM	one weakness im runnin into is like others said inteligent undead beguilers, like rogues, work best as city-based solo classes. this isn't saying that they can't work well in a group, but you're basically saying: "if only my politician were better at putting out fires" it doesn't matter what class you are. run/avoid what you're not good at. -chris
lukelightning 06-20-06, 09:25 AM	Solution to undead problem: Charm a few clerics. Or the necromancer/evil cultist that's been making the undead (if it's not an undead necromancer, of course). At least you can protect yourself from undead through things like improved invisibility and you can buff the party with haste, etc. so even if you can't harm the undead directly you can help the other PCs do so, something that the rogue lacks.
Witch 06-20-06, 09:38 AM	Solution to undead problem: - get to epic - get this feat: EPIC MANIPULATION [EPIC] You have perfected the art of mental manipulation to the point where even creatures normally immune to it can be affected. Prerequisites: Cha 25, Bluff 30 ranks, Spellcraft 30 ranks. Benefits: Your spells can affect even those normally immune to mind-affecting effects. However, such creatures gain a +10 bonus on their Will saves to resist such effects.
CONMAN2469 06-20-06, 03:14 PM	At 2nd level, you have a charm person that lasts more than 10 rounds and a diplomacy modifier of more than +10 (5 ranks, +2 synergy from Bluff, +2 synergy from Sense Motive, and any Charisma modifier at all). That means that you charm an enemy Orc and it counts as Friendly, and then you take 10 on your Diplomacy check (DC 20) to make it Helpful. You can just take and keep the orcs you encounter starting fron 2nd level. What allows you to "Take a 10" on Diplomacy checks? I was sure only Rogues could use their skill mastery to take 10 on such rolls! Other than than... I like the Beguiler. By 20th level you should have Otto's Irrisistable Dance, and 23 ranks in hide (with any other bonuses you apply) a touch attack that's flat footed, makes a usless monster for a few rounds, SR or not!
Witch 06-20-06, 03:16 PM	What allows you to "Take a 10" on Diplomacy checks? I was sure only Rogues could use their skill mastery to take 10 on such rolls! Other than than... I like the Beguiler. By 20th level you should have Otto's Irrisistable Dance, and 23 ranks in hide (with any other bonuses you apply) a touch attack that's flat footed, makes a usless monster for a few rounds, SR or not! By 20th level nearly everything will be immune to mind-affecting effects, though.
CONMAN2469 06-20-06, 04:01 PM	By 20th level nearly everything will be immune to mind-affecting effects, though. I am so sorry! You must have beed abused by your GM's... While it is true a lot of monsters of that catagory ARE immune, there are still many monsters that are applicable. Any GM who sends only monsters immune to mind affecting spells is a jerk! Bard (who will recieve Requiem at the following level): Good thing these aren't undead! I can't deal with them yet... I start singing! GM (who is a jerk): Oh! I forgot to tell you! These humans have skin falling off their face. Bard (in disbelief): But, you said three humans are walking up the path, talking about the meal they were given at the last town they were at! GM (trying to anger everyone) OK! Spot check everyone! Anyone who got above a 30 sees 4 more "HUMANS" hiding in the bushes behind you! Bard (obviously angry): I have Quick Requinoiter, I can make a spot and listed check each round as a free action, and last round I got a 42 on my spot! GM (smiling broadly): you didn't say you made a spot check! Now you are being eaten by 2 of the 3 zombies you tried to facinate! Bard: You got me again!! Tricky GM! Is this anything like your games anyone? If so... Tie your GM to a cactus! :devil:
Witch 06-20-06, 04:05 PM	No, that wasn't at all like my games. My remark was an objective statement about the nature of high-level opponents. At high level, a very important NPC usually has a mind blank spell up. Also, take a look through the epic level handbook. You will find most creatures there immune to MA effects. This is an issue that needs to be adressed - which is why the feat I listed is so useful.
K 06-20-06, 04:07 PM	What allows you to "Take a 10" on Diplomacy checks? I was sure only Rogues could use their skill mastery to take 10 on such rolls! Diplomacy has no disasterous results for failure. In fact, you can't fail a Diplomacy roll because there's no DC to the check, just a series of effects that occur depending upon the specific results of your open-ended check. The Rogue has the ability to take 10 on tasks while in combat or when there is a specific negative result for failure. Diplomacy is neither of those things and anyone can take 10 on it. By 20th level nearly everything will be immune to mind-affecting effects, though. None of the CR 20 monsters in the Monster Manual are. However, even if they were, who cares? You have time stop and powerword: Kill. You have had a bunch of advanced learnings to spend on Illusions so you can fight just fine with shadow magic if you want. Mind Affecting Immunity is a minor inconvenience for the Beguiler, and if it comes with Mindlessness the Beguiler gets enough power in other areas that he comes out ahead.
CONMAN2469 06-20-06, 04:18 PM	Diplomacy has no disasterous results for failure. In fact, you can't fail a Diplomacy roll because there's no DC to the check, just a series of effects that occur depending upon the specific results of your open-ended check. The Rogue has the ability to take 10 on tasks while in combat or when there is a specific negative result for failure. Diplomacy is neither of those things and anyone can take 10 on it. But Diplomacy does have a DC... it is an opposed check. Under normal circumstances Diplomacy takes at least 1 minute. You can take -10 on you check to rush it, but I won't ever allow anyone other than a rogue with skill mastery "Take a 10" on Diplomacy, unless it's between party members that have known each other for a long time. And... Witch... Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so harsh. That exact situation happened to me, and I nearly threw a book at my GM's head! Stoopid GM! I cut you into noodles!
Jovknee 06-20-06, 04:41 PM	Basic DM response first time reading the Beguiler NO! Bad Munchkins! No doughnuts! However it wasn't so bad since all the players basically agreed that its overpowered. The Knight however, I am getting very anxious to play. Not only is it balanced but very flavorful. And even though they give you a code of conduct, atleast they tell you what you can or can not do, and it doesnt seem to burdensom. :)
NineInchNall 06-20-06, 08:21 PM	Diplomacy has no disasterous results for failure. In fact, you can't fail a Diplomacy roll because there's no DC to the check, just a series of effects that occur depending upon the specific results of your open-ended check. The Rogue has the ability to take 10 on tasks while in combat or when there is a specific negative result for failure. Diplomacy is neither of those things and anyone can take 10 on it. Diplomacy has fixed DCs as given in the PHB and SRD. None of the CR 20 monsters in the Monster Manual are. However, even if they were, who cares? You have time stop and powerword: Kill. You have had a bunch of advanced learnings to spend on Illusions so you can fight just fine with shadow magic if you want. And power word: kill likely won't affect any of them, due to their having more than 100 hp. Power word: kill is mind-affecting, too, btw, and a death effect to boot. Shadow spells are just about the only way to make a Beguiler useful in those other situations, and to make good use of them requires at least a one level dip into another class in order to delay Advanced Learning by a level. Mind Affecting Immunity is a minor inconvenience for the Beguiler, and if it comes with Mindlessness the Beguiler gets enough power in other areas that he comes out ahead. He comes out ahead in the same way that (nearly) every class comes out ahead: he has weaknesses, but he also has areas in which he is highly effective.
NineInchNall 06-20-06, 08:27 PM	Basic DM response first time reading the Beguiler NO! Bad Munchkins! No doughnuts! My DM was much more open minded about it. He let me play the class, and the first session made it very clear that I had a rather one dimensional caster on my hands. Critters immune to mind-affecting effects, a distinct lack of urban encounters, and hordes of enemies. The most effective things I did were casting obscuring mist so that we could run away and casting silent image to keep part of a group of vermin at bay. Other than that, my character was very close to death, and had to resort to casting mage armor on the Druid's riding dog more than once.
Jovknee 06-20-06, 09:36 PM	So here's a class with a good skill point number (6 + INT), and since INT is the stat used to determine spell casting ability, chances are you'd do what you can to get an 18 on INT. Your skill list is very impressive. Lets not forget that your spell list and spells known are the same. You automatically know all spell of the level (like the divine casters) and you can cast any spell on your list at anytime as long as you have an available slot left for that level or any level higher (like the soceror). How about the fact that you can wear light armor and not inccur spell failure chance. They also get trapfinding, and I can't for the life of me imagine why. Beguilers by the name are people that swindle and sweet talk. They are very social, so why should they have intricate knowledge of traps and pitfalls? With advanced learning you can learn those fun spells like fireball, and they later on get two metamagic feats. I agree that this class can't do everything, such as go toe to toe with dragons and the like. But if this class isn't overpowered I don't know what is.
NineInchNall 06-21-06, 01:42 AM	Would you consider the Warmage overpowered with 6+Int skills and trapfinding? I know I sure wouldn't. I might even stop considering it underpowered. Well, no, I take that back. Warmage casting sucks.
MonkeyPaladin 06-21-06, 11:45 AM	I really don't see it being overpowered. You have some rogue skills but none of the rogue's sneak attack or cool defensive abilities, so you're pretty weak in combat. You have nine levels of spells, but if they're immune to mind spells or just have a high will save those spells are a lot less useful. I see it as a social interaction class for people who want to do that, but don't want to play a lute and have all the bard's baggage.
goawayugh 06-21-06, 03:21 PM	Havent gotten to play him yet, but I have him all made up: Gnome Beguiler10/Mindbender1 (only for the telepathy). SF (Ilus), GSF (Ilus), picking up Shadow Evocation at next level w/ Advanced Learning. If I cant charm them...blast them w/ Shadow Evocation!!! hehehehehehehehe............best class ever!!! (of course, this is comming from someone who loves mind-f*ing people, usually as a DM)
Nicholas the Paladin 06-22-06, 03:48 AM	At 2nd level, you have a charm person that lasts more than 10 rounds and a diplomacy modifier of more than +10 (5 ranks, +2 synergy from Bluff, +2 synergy from Sense Motive, and any Charisma modifier at all). That means that you charm an enemy Orc and it counts as Friendly, and then you take 10 on your Diplomacy check (DC 20) to make it Helpful. You can just take and keep the orcs you encounter starting fron 2nd level.. This will undoubtetly raise discussions in my group. - What can be done with a person that is 'friendly'? - What can be done with a person that is 'helpfull'? Will it fight for you? Or will it just defend you? Another point that has more to do with roleplaying: what on earth are you going to do with a bunch of orcs that are your (temporary) friends? Finishing them off would be 'non-good' and bad roleplaying in my book. But also, in the end they will become baddies again. Besides that; it says in the PHB2 that 'combat expertise' is a good feat when advancing. I don't understand. As far as I know this feat will only work when you make a melee attack and are willing to suffer a penalty to attack: why would a beguiler want to make a melee attack? Would a spell ranged touch attack also work? But then again, a beguiler can't afford to have penalties on his touch attacks
Feroz 06-22-06, 03:58 AM	Besides that; it says in the PHB2 that 'combat expertise' is a good feat when advancing. I don't understand. As far as I know this feat will only work when you make a melee attack and are willing to suffer a penalty to attack: why would a beguiler want to make a melee attack? Would a spell ranged touch attack also work? But then again, a beguiler can't afford to have penalties on his touch attacks Two words: Improved Feint Cloaked casting + spell in the same round = far better time efficiency than one spell/2 rounds.
Earthcrosser599 06-22-06, 04:32 AM	The class has far more strengths than weaknesses, and its strengths overcome given obstacles more than its weaknesses hold it back.
Nicholas the Paladin 06-22-06, 04:38 AM	Two words: Improved Feint Cloaked casting + spell in the same round = far better time efficiency than one spell/2 rounds. I see the value of 'improved feint', but was has it got to do with my question?
Witch 06-22-06, 04:42 AM	I see the value of 'improved feint', but was has it got to do with my question? It has Combat Expertise as a prerequisite.
Nicholas the Paladin 06-22-06, 05:15 AM	It has Combat Expertise as a prerequisite. Sorry, it slipped my mind.
Elemental 06-22-06, 08:25 AM	Two words: Improved Feint Cloaked casting + spell in the same round = far better time efficiency than one spell/2 rounds. However, IF needs a move action before a certain level. So assuming you moved to touch range of the creature in the round before, you spent a round in full attack range there. That tends not to work out so well for spellcasters.
Far_Traveler 06-22-06, 12:59 PM	I'm playing a Beguiler 6 now. I have a neat Trick: Tumbling feint: Move into position + +5 on bluff check Swift feint Spell Fade into violence makes the monster hits the goliath barbarian/fighter rather then me if i succeed on a bluff vs. thier sense motive. it's like feint, but no BaB as a bonus I wish i had Sneak attack. Hmmmm.... Gestalt Beguiler/Sneak attack Fighter....
MonkeyPaladin 06-22-06, 01:16 PM	I just had a thought. You know Regis from the Drizzt books? He never struck me as quite what a D&D rogue was. He'd sneak around sometimes, but he was much more likely to step up and talk his way throught the situation, especially with that ruby gemstone. The others sent him to the town council meetings early on, and later on he's got a position of authority in Mithral Hall. Maybe Regis has been a beguiler all this time :D
K 06-22-06, 01:31 PM	Another point that has more to do with roleplaying: what on earth are you going to do with a bunch of orcs that are your (temporary) friends? Option1: Order them into battle on your behalf with an opposed Charisma check. Option 2: make a DC 20 Diplomacy check and make them your permanent allies. The charm has a duration, but the diplomacy does not. Now, while the DMG is supposed to have mor einformation about NPC attitudes, it doesn't. The PHB statement to that effect on page 72 is false. Weird but true. So when it says that helpful orcs will take risks to help you, that's really up to the DM to determine what it means. They'll "back you up", which for Orc Warriors presumably means that they'll hit your enemies with a greataxe, but maybe they'll literally just stand behind you and look menacing. That's a DM call. The ELH has one more attitude: Fanatic. Fanatics will "fight to the death against impossible odds or throw themselves in front of an onrushing dragon" - which is more than I expect out of Orcish Warriors who are fighting for me. So the interpretation that a Helpful NPC will fight your enemies has a lot of circumstantial evidence. No direct evidence however.
R3DM4G3 06-23-06, 03:22 AM	Pardon me for going a tid-bit off topic, but I feel the need to state something. Now, I have a VERY boring job that allows me to read for almost 7 of my 8 hour days, and I spend this time in front of my, now quite large, D&D library. With this time, I have realized many things, two inparticular. 1.) Anything can be "broken" if you try hard enough (or if you DM is a twit). 2.) Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Example: Before the "Astral Construct" nerf in the Complete Psionics, I discovered a way to summon 13 19HD Huge Constructs in one round (don't ask). This said, I have NEVER felt the desire to use it. Why? No one has any fun that way. My point? Instead of calling a class "overpower". Why not just play one and option not to always do the most devistating thing possible? :D
Milo HoBo 06-23-06, 04:55 AM	...Example: Before the "Astral Construct" nerf in the Complete Psionics, I discovered a way to summon 13 19HD Huge Constructs in one round (don't ask).... :D No, I really do need to ask how. I can see either over channel or wild surge with quicken power; but what else and what level character?