Post/Author/DateTime	Post
masterilkhan 01-09-07, 12:20 PM	The title says it all. I am curious if anybody has heard of some official book that includes a pacifist base class or if somebody here has their own ideas about making one up before I try my hand at it. Any help would be appreciated.
Tempest Stormwind 01-09-07, 12:24 PM	Book of Exalted Cheese, with the Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence, turn any class into a pacifist.
OM_The_Tortoise 01-09-07, 12:30 PM	Never heard of a base class like that, but maybe a few pointers: In BoED there's a string of exalted feats that are based on avoiding some things. If I remember correctly, there's Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence, though I'm not certain. They're very good for monks and such, though not actually pacifist as is. I've also been planning on playing an old Diviner/Loremaster that will not take any active role in combats, but more because they don't interest him much that because of any pacifist feelings. Not much help, I know... However, I'm curious to know - is your DM going to give you a non-military campaign? Because even with one combat per session, your character will not participate for much of the time.
crimsonwolf 01-09-07, 12:34 PM	healer class from the minitrues hand book is the close as you can get without spending a bunch of feats.
Dochenor 01-09-07, 01:40 PM	Enchanter and Telepaths can accomplish alot while avoiding most if not all forms of conflict. Especially with the Vow of Non-Violence and the Vow of Peace.
Witch 01-09-07, 01:42 PM	The Healer seems somewhat pacifist.
Darth Sephiroth 01-09-07, 01:47 PM	Yeah, the healer is basically forced into it with the restrictions to things. Vow of Peace and Non-Violence are pretty much what you really want with that class.
Elemental_Master 01-09-07, 03:03 PM	Ah a pacifist sounds rather boring. Sorry but I enjoy blowing things up, and swords. A wizard with many ranks in knowledge and rather no combat spells could works... or a sorceror who talks... Wait! Play a Diplomat!
JulesCARV 01-09-07, 03:13 PM	Let's be clear, here. When you say "pacifist," do you mean a class with a code of conduct that mandates that they not engage in combat against anyone? Or do you mean a class with very good out-of-combat abilities, but which is pretty much terrible at doing damage? For the first question, the answer is "no." For the second question, the answer is also pretty much "no," although if you let in all of the splatbooks and such, beguilers, healers, cloistered clerics and such come to mind.
masterilkhan 01-10-07, 01:08 AM	The Healer suggestion was a good one. I figured that when pacifist was mentioned it would be in terms of a healing or supportive class and the Healer is a very good one for that. As for the Vows in the BoED, the Vows of Peace and Nonviolence, they give me pretty much what I was looking for. Thanks for your help. I was talking with my GM about starting as a Cleric but with an alternate starting package where I forego causing lethal or ability damage to living creatures. In exchange, I would gain a bonus domain in either good, protection, or healing and would be able to prepare a bonus spell per day from that bonus domain. However, after reading the Healer, it would be a lot easier just to play that than try to make something else work. Again, thanks for your input. Also, to answer one question asked above: the campaign has, as yet, been unrevealed to me. However, when I asked to do this, the GM raised eyebrows but said nothing about the level of combat. I can still participate in combat so long as I don't hurt anything...well, we'll see how it goes.
periscope 01-10-07, 01:14 AM	There are lots of things that dont hurt or cause harm that can be bad in combat. Color spray, hold person, forcecage, wall of ice, force, stone, iron, the whelm spells from the PHB II, the illusion spells, stinking cloud, ray of enfeeblement (imposes a penalty, doesnt actually do damage), lots of stuff.
Bizzle7 01-10-07, 02:43 PM	Also, to answer one question asked above: the campaign has, as yet, been unrevealed to me. However, when I asked to do this, the GM raised eyebrows but said nothing about the level of combat. I can still participate in combat so long as I don't hurt anything...well, we'll see how it goes.[/QUOTE] Wouldnt you be running the risk of dieing if you participated but didnt fight back. I am sure you could fight Defensivley but still. Being in combat situations and choosing not to fight sounds a little stupid and crazy for me. But I guess everyone likes to die there own way...Good Luck
Silverthumb128 01-10-07, 02:47 PM	There's really nothing keeping classes like Cleric, Bard, and Wizard from being pacifistic. Clerics can stick to what they're good at, and remain Healing Buffers, maybe the Cloistered Cleric would be good? Bards, too, are very good at sitting on the sidelines, using their skills to avoid combat, and keeping the party alive(and entertained). Wizards are slightly trickier if the campaign is more combat-driven, but can be very good for divinations and defensive spells.
The_Shaman 01-10-07, 05:20 PM	A monk with the right mindset might be a fun choice... Technically they can easily inflict non-lethal damage with their unarmed attacks, and if you watch some aikido demonstrations you may get to have some very amusing ideas :D
Ventifax 01-10-07, 05:39 PM	I think bard makes a lot of sense: suggestion, diplomacy, illusion, healing--why even go for damage spells, when you have so few? A grappling monk is a neat idea. Heck, a ranger with a merciful weapon might work.
periscope 01-10-07, 07:43 PM	Go with monk but only up to the vow of nonviolence. All the flavor, only 2 restrictions (humanoids and monstrous humanoids).
Silverthumb128 01-10-07, 09:09 PM	I think bard makes a lot of sense: suggestion, diplomacy, illusion, healing--why even go for damage spells, when you have so few? Exactly what I think. Bards just have too many good non-damaging abilities to worry about doing any damage. You've just got to be clever about how you play. I think that's something oft-forgotten about D&D: Its not all about killing, just that a lot of it is. :D
masterilkhan 01-11-07, 01:53 AM	I think that's something oft-forgotten about D&D: Its not all about killing, just that a lot of it is. :D This is the entire reason I am trying to play a pacifist. I am trying to prove both to myself and to the other players that I can "survive" without doing damage. To often, another member of the group will look at a situation purely along the lines of how it will aid them solely in combat and they never consider it from any other view. You know, I had for so long forgotten about the Bard, maybe its time I took another look into it. Heh, I have too many good suggestions to try out, I'm not quite sure which to do, but so far the Healer, Monk, and Bard all sound like good choices.
Tempest Stormwind 01-11-07, 02:34 AM	Diplomancer. Play a half-elf hippie. Tell everyone to, you know, "chill, dude." And force them to make DC 50ish Will saves or chill from level 3. The Vows would just be icing on the cake with a diplomancer build. (I can help with that if you're not familiar with it; it hinges on Half-Elf Bard sub levels in Races of Destiny and several cheap and easy ways to boost your Diplomacy.)
The_Shaman 01-11-07, 09:23 AM	True, diplomacy is near-allmighty once you are around lvl 10 or so. Anyway, magic definitely helps if you want to subdue an opponent, and while it involves some hurting, so does ability damage such as poison. 3 wounds with huge spider venom means 6 DC 16 fort saves for 1d8 strength damage. Not many characters can remain standing after that, especially if they have a weak fort save. If that's still a bit too mean for you, you can substitute eggshell grenades with the equivalent of sleep gas. All in all, I think the only "pacificist" base class is the healer. However, nearly any class can be played as a pacifist, or at least someone who dislikes killing, including the fighter.
lukelightning 01-11-07, 09:33 AM	Ah, good old pacifist characters; rivaling the party-disruption abilities of frenzied berzerkers (kill everyone...including fellow party members!) and forsakers (destroy all magic...including the party's loot!). Pacifist characters look appealing for some RP reasons, but generally you end up either causing friction with other players or being hipocritical....you can't hurt someone else, but you can buff a party member to let them do it? Or are you limited to healing, which means you are like a wand of cure serious wounds with a pulse?
The_Shaman 01-11-07, 10:42 AM	Wait, are we talking pacifist as "I shall not kill" vs pacifist as "I shall not fight?"
JulesCARV 01-11-07, 11:46 AM	I like the GURPS distinction between "pacifism -- self-defense only" and "pacifism -- cannot kill." I even tried to write an Exalted feat called Vow of Nonaggression (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=716052), based more around the "lethal damage is okay, but don't start fights" concept of pacifism than the "starting fights is okay against some targets, but don't do lethal damage" concept, although of course a character could have both, and not initiate combat, and even if attacked by another, not deal lethal damage. BTW, masterilkhan, what books do you have access to?
masterilkhan 01-11-07, 12:43 PM	My view of pacifism is I will not attack somebody else of my own volition. After looking more closely at the Vow of Peace (I can't swallow a bug or else I violate???), I've been thinking of just making pacifism a character trait instead of some kind of ability. As far as books go, I have access to quite a few, actually. My DM must have devoted his life savings to these tomes...I don't even know what he has but I've always got access to it (he's in the same dorm as me).
JulesCARV 01-11-07, 01:02 PM	Alright. What do you want to do instead of fighting? For instance, a beguiler and a healer are both good "pacifist" characters, but in very different ways. Do you want to heal the sick and wounded? Persuade peacefully? Charm/dominate? Sneak around enemies? All of the above?
Pyromantic 01-11-07, 11:37 PM	Another possible idea that I don't think has been mentioned is the psion. There it's all about which powers you take, but I mention it in particular because of concussion blast, which gives you a solid nonlethal damage option. Beyond that there are a large number of powers that will be of value both in and out of combat.
Bizzle7 01-12-07, 01:56 PM	Alright. What do you want to do instead of fighting? For instance, a beguiler and a healer are both good "pacifist" characters, but in very different ways. Do you want to heal the sick and wounded? Persuade peacefully? Charm/dominate? Sneak around enemies? All of the above? Agreed, You need to know exactley what it is you want to do before anyone can think of helping you.
Silverthumb128 01-12-07, 02:28 PM	For instance, a beguiler and a healer are both good "pacifist" characters, but in very different ways. Do you want to heal the sick and wounded? Persuade peacefully? Charm/dominate? Sneak around enemies? All of the above? Bard, Bard, Bard is the word. Don't you know about the Bard? Well everybody knows that the Bard is the word. :D
Bizzle7 01-12-07, 03:11 PM	Bard, Bard, Bard is the word. Don't you know about the Bard? Well everybody knows that the Bard is the word. :D Not quite. Mabey something else because useing Magic while in Combat (atleast in the Creator of this Post's Definitoin) may go against the whole Pacifist thing.
Silverthumb128 01-12-07, 03:27 PM	Not quite. Mabey something else because useing Magic while in Combat (atleast in the Creator of this Post's Definitoin) may go against the whole Pacifist thing. Sorry if this sounds slightly harsh, but not in the least, not even close. If Bards were blasters, then I'd agree. Bards spells are good for keeping your opponents from attacking, or at the least, making them less able to attack. Nonharming statuses, like blindness, slow, fear, and various compulsions aren't violent ways to end a dispute. If your opponent surrenders, or runs away without you doing any harm, what makes you any less of a pacifist? If you should Suggest to them that they'd probably rather not kill you, that's what you should be doing as a nonviolent character. Bards easily define all of the major characteristics of a pacifist's abilities, as an adventurer.
Bizzle7 01-12-07, 03:47 PM	Generally avoiding combat situations is the whole point of a pacifist. Therefore playing a Magical Character that can actually turn a Hostile enemy into a firned even for enought time for him/her to leave the Situation would be a better and more Character apropriate skill then haveing them engage and then act. A bard can do that but it kinda beats around the bush instead of driectley addressing the problem. If a another person wants to engage in a fight you as a Pacifist should do everything in your power to avoid the fight rather then let it start and then end without you being violent. As for being in a party you should be trying to stop the fights while your Bloodthirsty Party Members are trying to kill them. It will do nothing but lead to violence among the party. I think the whole idea in general is stupid. And again leads to nothing but argueing ingame aswell as out-of-game with the players. If someone is a character that PrC into Assasin and you are a Pacifist, how would you interact with him in a freindley way. Again mabey it isnt for me or the players I play with but I cannot seeing any good coming from this.
unundindur 01-12-07, 05:33 PM	It may have been noted, but the Courtier in the Rokugan setting is very much a diplomacy master, and a anti-combatand. :)
Ventifax 01-12-07, 07:18 PM	There's something to be said for playing a human marshal (Minis HB). Put your highest stat in Charisma, start with your Skill Focus (Diplomacy) as bonus feat, then add Trustworthy (+2 to Diplomacy & Gather Information) & Persuasive (+2 to Bluff & Intimidate). Those last two are in Song & Silence, probably a couple of other books; if your DM is allowing Song & Silence, you're set to take Alluring (+2 Diplo, +2 to save DC's of your mind-affecting, language-dependent spells) at level 3. Take the Motivate Charisma aura to add your Cha bonus to Diplomacy, again. Of course, you'll miss out on the save DC part of Alluring, but still, massive Diplo without magic, even. (At level 6, take a Favored Soul cohort whose job is to cast Eagle's Splendor on you, all day long.) :D
paladin2019 01-12-07, 08:47 PM	I played a pacifist fighter/ranger in Arcanis, does that count?
Silverthumb128 01-12-07, 09:38 PM	If a another person wants to engage in a fight you as a Pacifist should do everything in your power to avoid the fight rather then let it start and then end without you being violent. As an adventurer in a party, I agree that that's the best method for avoiding death, but that also wil, as a team member, leave the rest of the party without XP. You're free to strike a deal with your party so that they aren't losing out on rewards. As for being in a party you should be trying to stop the fights while your Bloodthirsty Party Members are trying to kill them. It will do nothing but lead to violence among the party. I think the whole idea in general is stupid. While I don't agree that its stupid, if you think it is, I'd advise avoiding the concept, and further threads about it. And again leads to nothing but argueing ingame aswell as out-of-game with the players. If someone is a character that PrC into Assasin and you are a Pacifist, how would you interact with him in a freindley way. Again mabey it isnt for me or the players I play with but I cannot seeing any good coming from this. You don't have to be a tree-hugging hippy to be a pacifist. There are, believe it or not, realists that know violence is inevitable, but do what they can to stop it. Maybe the pacifistic character knows that the Assassin's interest is murder. Does that make the first character any less peaceful because of what someone else does? Maybe the character knows it happens, but doesn't do it himself. You know, someone minding their own business. And in a realm where dragons and zombies run amok and wob't be reasoned with, a little protection is mandatory. Scratch the Assassin's back, and he'll keep the poison out of yours. It just requires forethought on the behalf of the player. I know, what a concept.
masterilkhan 01-13-07, 12:20 AM	The reason I want to play a pacifist is so that I can prove to my bloodthirsty friends that a character or player's worth does not boil down to damage and numbers. I want a character who will not kill or harm yet still be effective in all aspects of play. I will not stop another from hurting, but I myself will cause the damage. Pacifism is a broad term, I think, and saying that I will do everything in my power to stop combat is one form of pacifism. Another is simply not doing the killing myself. I feel that fanatical fullblown pacifism would not be entertaining to play (my own feelings), but that a personal promise to oneself that I will never cause harm or death intentionally to a living thing would be fun.
Fleshwarping 01-13-07, 06:45 PM	I've played a pacifist Wizard regularly. Almost any class can be played as a pacifist. A pacifist fighter who puts her bonus feats towards Improved Sunder and Disarm feats would be interesting. Depending on the campaign and the beliefs of the pacifist, the pacifist might accept engaging in combat with mindless undead and constructs, or evil outsiders. On the other hand, my pacifist Wizard would rather awaken a construct than destroy one.
JulesCARV 01-13-07, 08:56 PM	Okay. Here's an idea for a pacifist character who could be fairly fun: Beguiler 10/apostle of peace 2/mystic theurge 8 This combination involves almost no bookkeeping -- you have no items beyond a spell component pouch, maybe a simple weapon, and a day's meal, and you know all of your beguiler spells for spontaneous casting. All you have to keep track of are which AoP spells you prepare. In practice, you'll probably want to go into apostle of peace around 8th level, then alternate MT and beguiler levels, since you'll want to maintain some skills that mystic theurges lack, like diplomacy.
paladin2019 01-13-07, 11:09 PM	My character had no problem with the act of fighting, or even pre-emptively striking to avert a greater fight. He just really didn't like it and would speak of how the butchery sickened him. He was a veteran of the wars that gave Arcanis its sub-title; he would rather spend his days with wine, women and song, forgetting what he had seen done (much by his own hand). It was time to heal, to live and let live. But the sword is what he knew and she is definitely a jealous lover.
The_Shaman 01-14-07, 12:57 PM	Heh, call me a fanboy but that so reminds me of Kenshin... Anyway, if you're the regretful type, get a merciful enchantment on your weapon :D
paladin2019 01-14-07, 05:00 PM	Heh, call me a fanboy but that so reminds me of Kenshin... Anyway, if you're the regretful type, get a merciful enchantment on your weapon :D Who? And no not regretful, just doesn't like fighting.
The_Shaman 01-15-07, 09:00 AM	Er, it's a fairly well-known anime/manga character, and the series was among my favourites. Basically a guy who used to work as a killer in the revolution and then decided to give up fighting and start anew.