Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Majick 08-30-07, 01:32 AM	Say i wanted to play a human sorcerer, and i wanted to boost my AC a bit... Is there any reason NOT to take a one level dip into monk (then take the Ascetic Mage feat) to get my Charisma to AC as well as a bonus every so often? Seriously, one level lost in casting progression but, improved unarmed strike, improved grapple (or stunning), +2 to all saves, flurry, better AC (usually by a lot if you got a good Charisma)
StevenO 08-30-07, 01:40 AM	You delay your BAB a bit. MULTICLASS PENALTIES!!! Depending on race this could be a big one as few have either monk or sorcerer as favorite class. Yes, being human avoids this problem. Delaying your spellcasting one level also means wizards are always casting spells a full level higher than you are instead of just half the time.
Majick 08-30-07, 01:46 AM	hmm... i guess that one level can make a difference :P but isn't it worth the AC bonus? 1. Considering, say, starting with Charisma 16 2. eventually getting +6 to Charisma from a cloak 3. putting all 5 points from advancement into it 4. putting a book of Charisma into it (+5) that's like... er... 32 Charisma! (Obviously higher level stuff from cost) but +11 to AC just for hell of it is pretty damn good for a sorcerer! Also, +4 to AC AGAIN for having you Monk and Sorcerer levels stack for the Monk's generic AC bonus (by level) +15 is pretty good by my standards
TheCanadian 08-30-07, 01:54 AM	The main reason I can see not to...flavour. Unless your character has a reason to be a monk/sorceror, just arbitrarily giving him a monk level is really sort of...well...lame. Most of the people I game with don't make their characters with whatever class they want, they think about their character first and then find classes to match that. If you're just adding a level of monk because "it'll make my character have moar power!" then in my mind, that's not a decent enough reason. That being said, if your character is Ximbel, Arcane Master of the Crystal Fist, Adept of Magic and Puigilism, then by all means, mix them classes!
dman11235 08-30-07, 01:56 AM	Ooh! And take enlightened fist, also mixes well. Well, now, my keyboard is acting up. I even had to edit the edit.
Fireclave 08-30-07, 02:21 AM	While all that bonus AC is pretty tempting, slower spell progression and losing a caster level would be enough for me to not take a level of monk. Sorcerers have to wait long enough as it is (a level behind the wizard) without delaying their spells even more. That and the fact that most of the other bonuses you would get from that level of monk (improved unarmed strike, improved grapple, stunning fist, and flurry) would be of little use due to your low BaB, low HP and probably low strength. Now if you were using the UA Battle Sorcerer varient, that'd be different ;)
goawayugh 08-30-07, 07:44 AM	1) Sorcerer's kinda suck...unless you are trying to fill a specific role. 2) Is it worth it? Depends on how much delayed casting matters to you. I would never do it, but then again, I'm extremely reluctant to take ANYTHING that will slow my casting. You seem to think that it is worth it. If you're just trying to get people to justify a decision that you really want to make, don't bother. If that is what you really want to do, then just do it, you don't need any validation from us. It also depends on the play style of your character and your DM a lot. Will your Sorcerer actually be taking a lot of hits? If so, then maybe it is worth it to you. Most of my casters care little for AC because they're not getting targeted by attacks where AC matters much (targeted by spells in another matter). I like to play the caster that stays back (or at least unseen) and casts inconspicuous spells (charm person, dominate person, hold person, various illusions) rather than the big flashy damage dealing ones (fireball, lightning bolt, meteor swarm) You sound like you really want to do it. So here's my vote: Do it.
Grogmir 08-30-07, 07:50 AM	Any reason not to??? Yep 1 major one… Its sucks! Seriously – only ever give up spell progression to save you mothers life. Otherwise, it ain’t worth it. Grogmir.
Hsien 08-30-07, 08:27 AM	Just for AC, no I don't think that it's worth it as the Sorcerors do not have the best spell progression anyway and if your in a situation where you need that it...a 32 AC isn't likely going to matter much at that level anyway. Plus the multi-classing issue prev mentioned if non-human.
Drakir 08-30-07, 08:51 AM	While we're at it, a monk's AC bonus is derived from their Wis, not their Cha.
Malek2991 08-30-07, 09:06 AM	While we're at it, a monk's AC bonus is derived from their Wis, not their Cha. There is a feat in Complete Adventurer, Ascetic Mage that lets him use his CHA bonus in place of his WIS, It also lets his Sorcerrer and Monk levels stack for the purposes o,f his unarmored bonus to AC. To answer the op's question it may be worth it depending on how your DM DMs. If a lot of attacks target you then its worth it, If opponents rarely target you it is really not worth it.
Sol_Odlanier 08-30-07, 12:44 PM	To answer the op's question it may be worth it depending on how your DM DMs. If a lot of attacks target you then its worth it, If opponents rarely target you it is really not worth it. Yup yup. I would take TWO levels (extra feats, improve saves AND evation are not easly ignored IMO) but if casting is your passion you should REALLY think about it.:thinks:
CactusPOP 08-30-07, 12:55 PM	There is the good things and not too good things to do this. To be one Monk/Sorcerer with these bonuses you told, you will have to take the Ascetic Mage obrigatoriusly and will lost one spellcaster level. If you want a initial magical hand-to-hand character, I not only agree with you as I would suggest to use a Monk's Belt too. xD
Treantmonklvl20 08-30-07, 03:33 PM	If you take the right spells you should have a good AC without any Monk Levels: Level 1: Shield (+4 shield bonus) Level 2: Alter Self (troglodite) (+6 natural armor bonus) Level 3: Greater Mage Armor (+6 armor bonus) That's AC 26 without Dex, enhancement or deflection bonuses. You nerf your spells if you multiclass the Sorcerer - hey - but what does a Sorcerer need spell for anyways? :rolleyes:
Vharuck 08-30-07, 03:54 PM	If you take the right spells you should have a good AC without any Monk Levels: Level 1: Shield (+4 shield bonus) Level 2: Alter Self (troglodite) (+6 natural armor bonus) Level 3: Greater Mage Armor (+6 armor bonus) That's AC 26 without Dex, enhancement or deflection bonuses. You nerf your spells if you multiclass the Sorcerer - hey - but what does a Sorcerer need spell for anyways? :rolleyes: Don't forget... Level 3: Fly (quite often untouchable) :P
foxtail 08-30-07, 03:57 PM	edit: Didn't see there was a second page, bleh.
bkdubs123 08-30-07, 04:24 PM	What about Wizard19/Monk1 with the KungFu Genius feat? Now the issue of losing that level of spellcasting isn't such a big deal!
Lorindale 08-30-07, 04:28 PM	I agree with Sol_Odlanier that 2 levels would be better. As a spellcaster you are in the back a lot, have few hit points, fireballs hurt, and evasion makes them hurt a whole lot less. Yes, you will slow your spell progression, however you are also altering your character's focus away from "guy who blows things up" and towards something more of a thinking character so spell level matters to a lesser degree. Also, by giving yourself some close combat abilities you are making many of the lower level spells (such as the 2nd level spells that boost attributes, rays and touch spells) more useful since you have the ability to get in close and bring out more of their potential. Basically, if you want a character that makes things go boom then don't do it unless you have the patience to wait until 8th level, otherwise I'd go for it.
Fireclave 08-30-07, 10:42 PM	I agree with Sol_Odlanier that 2 levels would be better. As a spellcaster you are in the back a lot, have few hit points, fireballs hurt, and evasion makes them hurt a whole lot less. Yes, you will slow your spell progression, however you are also altering your character's focus away from "guy who blows things up" and towards something more of a thinking character so spell level matters to a lesser degree. Also, by giving yourself some close combat abilities you are making many of the lower level spells (such as the 2nd level spells that boost attributes, rays and touch spells) more useful since you have the ability to get in close and bring out more of their potential. I would argue that the opposite is true. If all you want your sorcerer to do is blow stuff up, you really don't need many spells. A single blasting spell per spell level with the odd ray and conjuration is more than enough to play a competent blaster sorcerer. A loss of a sorcerer level or two won't hurt you much. But if you want to play a sorcerer that is, as you say, "more of a thinking character," each caster level you miss is even more important because you are delaying access to additional tools to make your sorcerer's strategies and options more versatile and complex. Since the sorcerer gets so very few spells known, each additional spell known is especially important. Also, I think you are overestimating the close combat benefits of only two levels of monk. While the AC and save boost would be very useful for a close combat sorcerer, two levels of monk does nothing for your rays or touch spells since your Bab increase from those two levels is the same thing as taking two levels of sorcerer. There are other ways of getting evasion without losing caster levels (Ring of Evasion and Ruin Delver Fortune come to mind).
Orion_Danthyer 08-30-07, 10:51 PM	If you are worried about have AC and casting spells, i suggest a cleric, but im a huge fan of the Jade Pheonix Mage (at lvl 20, +15 BAB, 9th lvl spells, and 8th lvl Manuevers, in the Book of the Nine Swords). Which might be better than doing what you are thinking. As to answer your question, no its not worth it.
Lorindale 08-31-07, 12:11 AM	I would argue that the opposite is true. If all you want your sorcerer to do is blow stuff up, you really don't need many spells. A single blasting spell per spell level with the odd ray and conjuration is more than enough to play a competent blaster sorcerer. A loss of a sorcerer level or two won't hurt you much. But if you want to play a sorcerer that is, as you say, "more of a thinking character," each caster level you miss is even more important because you are delaying access to additional tools to make your sorcerer's strategies and options more versatile and complex. Since the sorcerer gets so very few spells known, each additional spell known is especially important. Also, I think you are overestimating the close combat benefits of only two levels of monk. While the AC and save boost would be very useful for a close combat sorcerer, two levels of monk does nothing for your rays or touch spells since your Bab increase from those two levels is the same thing as taking two levels of sorcerer. There are other ways of getting evasion without losing caster levels (Ring of Evasion and Ruin Delver Fortune come to mind). True, there are other ways of getting evasion, but few of them come with a +3 to Reflex saves. For the close combat aspect, I was thinking about the AC bonus, since it would allow a character to move in close and the improved unarmed attack ability gives you the chance to punch someone with shocking grasp. (A friend of mine built a character around this concept once, he regularly dealt 60 to 80 hp a round. It did require some spell prep, but "cast spell --> charge/kill" isn't a bad way to go.) As for blowing things up requiring few spells, it needs just one really: fireball. But I think its boring.
Fireclave 08-31-07, 01:44 AM	True, there are other ways of getting evasion, but few of them come with a +3 to Reflex saves. Very true. Which is why I love Ruin Delver's Fortune :) For the close combat aspect, I was thinking about the AC bonus, since it would allow a character to move in close and the improved unarmed attack ability gives you the chance to punch someone with shocking grasp. (A friend of mine built a character around this concept once, he regularly dealt 60 to 80 hp a round. It did require some spell prep, but "cast spell --> charge/kill" isn't a bad way to go.) For a typical sorcerer, delivering a spell with a unarmed strike is less advantageous since the former method of delivery requires a regular, not touch, attack. Unless the sorcerer can pack some punch into his punch and has reliable attack rolls, it's not normally not worth it. As for blowing things up requiring few spells, it needs just one really: fireball. But I think its boring. Fireball is much less boring with the Sculpt Spell feat. Though a competent blaster will have more than one way of blowing stuff up just out of necessity to energy resistances and have different methods of targeting.