Post/Author/DateTime	Post
immortal_fighter 05-09-07, 09:59 AM	right now im a lvl 6 rouge and I like how he plays. Im doing well with my range i have a crossbow of speed so i get two range attacks. If it comes to melee I have the hidden blade trick so im most always getting sneak attack on my opponent at 3d6, and with a feet i have I dont remeber name at the moment the d6 turns into a d8 against evil chars. Ive been looking at presitge classes but i cant find anything i want, or see anything thats better in the long run. I would love suggestions or anything that can help, words of wisdom are always appreciated.
rolig 05-09-07, 10:03 AM	actually I think rouge is a very good class to go all the way with... but you could always multiclass to assasin if you see it fit. but remember, everyone needs a rouge
Lecen_of_Mitran 05-09-07, 10:04 AM	ROGUE. the name is ROGUE. There is no Rouge in Dungeons & Dragons. What´s your problem, anyway? Why is so hard to spell it right?
Marcotic 05-09-07, 10:14 AM	I would suggest multiclassing into eyeliner, maybe lipstick. But seriously, staying rogue wouldn't be frowned upon, but play what you want to play. I would suggest a swashbuckler with able learning (if human) and (assuming you have complete scoundrel) that one feat that stacks SA with swashbuckler things.
Puca 05-09-07, 10:21 AM	Everyone who has never misspelled anything gets a free crack at you now. If your rogue is being successful, then you have no reason to look at a PrC. Youre going to continue to get 8 skill-points per level (not many can match that) and SA increases ever other. Very, very good option to just continue as you are. The only reason you might wish to look into a PrC is if there is something lacking, something you want to do better: Like, if you arent hitting as often as you want to, you might try to find a PrC with full BAB, or if you want to add a little magic to your repertoire, you might look into one of those classes. If you are happy, and it sounds like you are, then stay a rogue.
immortal_fighter 05-09-07, 10:30 AM	I didnt even see the spelling error until it was pointed out, i have been up all night so im a little on the tired side. I am very happy with my rogue and with his tricks and the almost brokeness of hidden blades trick and joint blades its great. I actually thought about taking a lvl of some magic type just for a few spells to play with.
Nadaka 05-09-07, 10:53 AM	Rogue is good to take to level 20. But my personal suggestion is to take 2 levels of SwordSage (a base class from ToB:Bo9S) if you would like to expand your repertoire of tricks. With just two levels (#7 & #8), you can get 2 stances, 6 1st or 2nd level maneuvers, 1 3rd level maneuver and a couple of really nice class features. The two stances that work best are Island of blades (making flanking easier) and assassins stance (+2d6 sneak attack) I would also recommend the maneuvers Cloak of Deception(1 round invisibility), Shadow Jaunt (short range teleportation) and Sapphire Nightmare Blade (target denied dex bonus). Each of these gives a unique ability that either synergizes with a sneak attacking rogue or grants unique benifits.
RobbyPants 05-09-07, 10:55 AM	Another nice thing about high level rogues is that they get the special abilities at 10th level, and every 3 thereafter. Some of these can do some pretty nice things. About the only reason you need to multiclass out of rogue is to cover up the dead level at 20th. ;)
teshen 05-09-07, 11:19 AM	I agree with the rest. Rogues are solid. That said, most of the time it's just as good to multiclass as opposed to prestige. If your storyteller allows Oriental Adventures, a one level dip into samurai can be cool for the free scaling weapon. Three in swashbuckler can be cool with the daring outlaw feat. If you net rogue 16/fighter type 4 you'll get enough base attack to get you another attack, which is always cool. Invisible blade might be good for a combat rogue... maybe rogue x/monk 2/invisible blade 5 (with the ascetic rogue feat)? Exemplar (I'm not sure if that's spelled right...) out of Complete Adventurer is good for a skill monkey rogue. And, yes, as mentioned before... if you're a human, grab the able learner feat.
serow_#R 05-09-07, 11:42 AM	Here's another reason to not multi/prestige out: Only rogue levels count towards out-flanking opponents with Improved Uncanny Dodge, not just any class that grants sneak attack.
Nephlite 05-09-07, 11:52 AM	I didnt even see the spelling error until it was pointed out, i have been up all night so im a little on the tired side. I am very happy with my rogue and with his tricks and the almost brokeness of hidden blades trick and joint blades its great. I actually thought about taking a lvl of some magic type just for a few spells to play with. Seeing as you get nothing at level 20 (benefits stop at level 19), I'd Prc. I'd have to know what you have (your build) to know what fits your current build: also your character to see what fits him.
parad0cz 05-09-07, 12:58 PM	I've always been partial to the Nightsong PrCs in the CAd book. Those classes have an added bonus of encouraging teamwork.
The_Shaman 05-09-07, 01:15 PM	right now im a lvl 6 rouge and I like how he plays. Im doing well with my range i have a crossbow of speed so i get two range attacks. If it comes to melee I have the hidden blade trick so im most always getting sneak attack on my opponent at 3d6, and with a feet i have I dont remeber name at the moment the d6 turns into a d8 against evil chars. Ive been looking at presitge classes but i cant find anything i want, or see anything thats better in the long run. I would love suggestions or anything that can help, words of wisdom are always appreciated. I myself tend to value PrCs a lot, because they provide a way to customize your character much deeper than the base classes do - even if they're not always more powerful than the original. Well, the strengths of a rogue are sneak attack, skills, and eventually the HLAs (high level abilities) - the others you can easily get with only a few rogue levels. If you want something else, you might want to multiclass. Good things to improve are: - BAB: if you want to hit more often - sure, your sneak attack tends to apply in cases you get a bonus to attack anyway (enemy flat-footed or flanked), but sometimes it's not enough. In that case, full BAB classes can give you a nice little boost - and that little extra attack with all the sweet SA goodness you get is nothing to sneer at. Good (IMO) ideas for base classes are fighter (feats), swashbuckler (free finesse, int to damage, eventually bonus to TWF armor class with the PHBII version, Daring Outlaw combo), ranger (some bonus feats, similar skills, useful additional features), possibly warblade (rogues tend to value intelligence anyway, and the other features don't hurt). PrCs you might want to look at include the Nightsong Enforcer (CAdv, my favourite), Dark Hunter (CAdv), Peerless Archer (Silver Marches), etc. There are some other useful rogue PrCs that are a little less useful with ranged weapons, such as the would be the Invisible Blade (CW), Master Thrower (CW), Dread Pirate (CAdv), Scarlet Corsair (Stormwrack), Streetfighter (CAdv), Duelist (DMG) and others depending on what you're willing to give up for your extra swordmanship. Expect to lose a bit in the skill department, but pretty much any multiclassing you can do will impact that. - Better saves: you're quite set as far as reflex is concerned, but fortitude and will saves are often used for some way nastier effects - compare Delayed Blast Fireball and Finger of Death, for example. The saves progression in D&D tends to favor multiclassing or PrCs anyway, since you get a "free" +2 to all the strong saves at lvl 1, which increases to +4 at lvl 4. In this regard, I can't really give a lot of advice, since it really depends on your character's campaign and stats, but a little extras go a long way. I'm partial to the Divine Seeker from PGtF, but it's a) campaign-specific, and b) requires a rather poor feat (stealthy... +2 to 2 skills? wooow). - More utility - skills can only do so much, and sometimes it's good to get a few extra tricks up your sleeve - from the Shadowlord's shadow pounce (Unapproachable East) to the Spymaster's (Complete Adventurer) infiltration bonuses. Basically, this is where you give your rogue a little extra specialization. I would put spellcasting/manifesting/initiating classes here; if you want some extra mojo consider a class/PrC that uses the mental stat you have most of. Remember some of the tricks of the trade: i.e. concealment and its value for both placing and avoiding sneak attacks. Rogue/caster hybrids can be very valuable in that regard, and most tend to boost your will save, too (I appreciate the versatility of Daggerspell mages/shapers and their ilk, but they tend to require more than a few caster levels - beside, you seem to be doing okay with the crossbow). Magic, psionics, or maneuvers can improve pretty much anything, if you choose well. - More survivability - this usually goes with the other sections, too - but there are quite a few classes that can make you harder to hit (swordsage, dervish, tempest, thief-acrobat, possibly duelist, etc), tougher, or both. Some of them also offer a way to get your special rogue skills earlier (Thief-acrobat, for example).
immortal_fighter 05-09-07, 07:42 PM	a lot of great ideas and things to think about, I have alot of studying to do apparently. there is a class i thought about going into just because it would be something completely different and it just changes things up a bit. I dont remember the exact name of the class but when i finish it all out i basically turn into a spider, its has lolth in the title, i know that for sure.
BugHunter 05-09-07, 08:32 PM	a lot of great ideas and things to think about, I have alot of studying to do apparently. there is a class i thought about going into just because it would be something completely different and it just changes things up a bit. I dont remember the exact name of the class but when i finish it all out i basically turn into a spider, its has lolth in the title, i know that for sure. Sounds like you are talking about the Fang of Lolth in Song & Silence, the thing is before you can go into the class you will need to find a fang scarab.
teshen 05-09-07, 08:47 PM	Here's another reason to not multi/prestige out: Only rogue levels count towards out-flanking opponents with Improved Uncanny Dodge, not just any class that grants sneak attack. Unless it is another class or prestige class with the uncanny dodge ability... then they stack. ;)
Ralvuimego 05-09-07, 11:12 PM	I've recently made a fairly large list of PrCs that advance your sneak attack (Which makes them, for the most part, rogue PrCs. Yes, I understand that there's more to the rogue than sneak attack, but this list was already in existance and thus meant no work for me). I'll post it here (Along with a short description of each). Who knows, maybe you'll find something you like. (Note that these are from the books that I have, and there are probably a lot more sneak attacking PrCs out there) Assasin (DMG) - stealthy killer with a rogue's sneak attack progression and some spells to boot Arcane Trickster (DMG) - The original caster/rogue mix PrC. Blackguard (DMG) - Not quite for rogues, but Full BAB, bigger damage dice, and a lot of special abilities Streetfighter (CADV) - Full BAB and a bonus to initiative, with a good bonus to some urban skills. Daggerspell Mage (CADV) - Rogue/Arcane Caster mix with some interesting special abilities for dual-dagger rogues Daggerspell Shaper (CADV) - Rogue/Druid mix with interesting abilities involving wild shape Dread Pirate (CADV) - Good abilities if you plan on captaining a ship, plus... you're a pirate! Nightsong Enforcer (CADV) - Nice teamwork PrC with full BaB and a decent (But not as good as rogue) sneak attack progression Nightsong Infiltrator (CADV) - Teamwork based PrC with 8 skill points per level, and a slow sneak attack progression that allied flankers use as well Shadowbane Inquisitor (CADV) - Melee based Paladin/Rogue mix with a fat d10 hit dice and some interesting light-related abilities. Shadowbane Stalker (CADV) - Rogue/Cleric mixing PrC that grants 8 out of 10 levels of divine casting progression Shadowmind (CADV) - Psionic Rogue mixing class, grants some nice stealth-related psionic powers Spymaster (CADV) - Class that assumes alternate identities, eventually truly becoming those they say that they are Ronin (CWAR) - Fallen Samurai PrC Dark Hunter (CWAR) - Underground tracker-style class that eventually gains Death Attack Darkwood Stalker (CWAR) - Supreme slayer of orcs, gains several bonuses against orcs, and some nice other abilities Invisible Blade (Daggers only) (CWAR) - Dagger-focused PrC, Master of the Feint action Justicar (Nonlethal only) (CWAR) - Bounty Hunter style PrC with nonlethal sneak attacks and good hit dice Black Flame Zealot (CDIV) - Evil Rogue/Cleric mix class with deadly flaming weapons Temple Raider of Olidammara (CDIV) - A condensed version of the rogue base class with some divine spells
serow_#R 05-10-07, 01:57 AM	Unless it is another class or prestige class with the uncanny dodge ability... then they stack. ;) I wasn't referring to uncanny dodge levels stacking, I was referring to rogue levels stacking for overcoming IUD. Only rogue levels give you that, nothing else.
LordPendragon 05-10-07, 02:26 AM	I'm surprised nobody's mentioned multiclassing to the simple variant Fighter (Unearthed Arcana) that gets Sneak Attack. You can keep your SA damage high while gaining that little boost up to +16 BAB.
navar100 05-10-07, 03:01 AM	Also keep in mind that just because Prestige Classes exist doesn't mean you have to go into one. Don't feel you are doing anything wrong if you never go into a prestige class because you are not.
Deep Blue 9000 05-10-07, 04:04 AM	I like multi-classing rogues into any sort of melee-spellcaster class: Warblade, Psychic Warrior, etc. You don't lose any punching power and gain a few tricks to make your combat less vanilla. Hustle, Moment of Perfect Mind, Shadow Jaunt and such really help cover your weaknesses too.
EvilVegan 05-10-07, 02:26 PM	Scout 3/Rogue 17 w/ swift ambusher is great with no skill point loss. Scout 3/Rogue 14/Uncanny trickster 3 is as good or better, again with no skill point loss I'm currently playing towards scout3/Monk2/Rogue14/Uncanny trickster 3. But I use fractional saves and BAB. Also, rogue 17/uncanny trickster 3 gives up nothing and gains things, which usually works out better.
Kerin 05-10-07, 03:59 PM	ROGUE. the name is ROGUE. There is no Rouge in Dungeons & Dragons. What´s your problem, anyway? Why is so hard to spell it right? Actually, anyone who tries to make a rouge in my game is allowed to, right before they're smeared onto the pockmarked face of a sea hag. Similarly, players who pronounce Kobold as "colbolt" are set upon by hoards of kobolds wielding wants of cold bolt. To specifically play a game that exists solely in the form of words and not know how to spell anything is a fallacy.
immortal_fighter 05-10-07, 05:46 PM	I may not have spelled rogue the right way, but im pretty sure Im spelling this right... your a ***
LordPendragon 05-10-07, 07:38 PM	I may not have spelled rogue the right way, but im pretty sure Im spelling this right... your a *** Actually, that should be "you're an ***".
cynnder 05-10-07, 08:11 PM	Ok...normally I do not jump into things like this, however Kerin I think your quote is incorrect. To specifically play a game that exists solely in the form of words and not know how to spell anything is a fallacy. While some people can't spell, it is equally annoying for people to use words in an incorrect manner. Please read the following definition of fallacy: Main Entry: fal·la·cy Pronunciation: 'fa-l&-sE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -cies Etymology: Latin fallacia, from fallac-, fallax deceitful, from fallere to deceive 1 a obsolete : GUILE, TRICKERY b : deceptive appearance : DECEPTION 2 a : a false or mistaken idea <popular fallacies> b : erroneous character : ERRONEOUSNESS 3 : an often plausible argument using false or invalid inference Just where is immortal fighter being 'false'? He made a mistake and I believe apologized for it already....let it go. :D
Treantmonklvl20 05-10-07, 08:19 PM	Two good reasons not to PrC with a rogue: 1) The rogue is quite good as a straight class. SA keeps building, and then special abilities starting at level 10 make it good right up to high levels, as long as you have a stout fighter type in the group to flank with and draw attacks. 2) There are only a few PrC's that continue your SA at every second level, going into a PrC that doesn't nerfs your best ability, and those that do, you will likely sacrifice skill points, and you are feat-hungry enough without directing feats towards qualifying for a PrC. Sometimes a couple level dip into fighter is worthwhile for the bonus feats, and if you don't care about a few less skill points, you may want to PrC, but it is definitely not required as it is with some other core classes (it is hard to make a relavant fighter-type without PrC'ing at some point).
Eyeless Blond 05-10-07, 08:23 PM	So, to summarize: No, unlike say a Fighter, there's no reason you MUST PrC out of a rogue. There's a common gripe about level 20, but honestly noone ever plays level 20 unless they plan on going to level 21, and the Epic rules for rogues are fine. You'll never go out of style with a rogue; at the very least you'll always be needed for your skills and trapfinding, the Use Magic Device skill becomes more and more useful as you level, and if you keep an eye out for items and feats that let you use your Sneak Attack to do damage to undead/constructs/other crit-immune critters then you won't be without combat utility either. Be careful about that last one btw; as you get to the very high to Epic levels (17+) a lot of things have crit-immunity or Fortification; you'll need to find ways to either get around those or use your Sneak Attack for other things. That said, multiclassing and PrC-ing can be another good route, if you're finding that a straight rogue doesn't do all you want. Most of the suggestions I would've made have already been mentioned above, so I won't go further, but honestly by itself rogue is a plenty good class in its own right, so don't feel compelled to look for a PrC unless there's something you really want to do that a straight Rogue can't do for you.
HammerSmashed 05-11-07, 12:11 AM	What about Assasins aside from cool abilities u get your sneak attack damage and way cool spells to screw around with.
wolf_man007 05-11-07, 08:31 AM	ROGUE. the name is ROGUE. There is no Rouge in Dungeons & Dragons. What´s your problem, anyway? Why is so hard to spell it right? *HIGH FIVE*
EvilVegan 05-11-07, 09:05 AM	Is't jsut a sipmle letetr trnasopstiion gyus. Clam dwon. Nnie tiems otu fo tne yuo cna stlil raed the wrod. I maen, trhee's not mcuh dfifreence betewen rogue adn rouge adn yuo lal konw waht eh menat. Hraping no teh smae mispselilng ovre adn oevr si os boirng. Gte Oevr Ti!