Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Throg 05-12-07, 01:49 PM	I like the flavor and idea of a sorcerer... just they aren't that great compaired to a wizard. I've scoured the class board here (Went all the way to the end of the forum) yet found only a small handfull of any changes to the sorcerer class. One made use of the spell pool.. and the other one was requesting the same thing I was pretty much. I'm just curious if anyone had tried to tweek the sorcerer and had favoriable outcomes with it. The only things I can think of myself is to offer my DM to give the sorcs bonus feats that can only be used on the heritage feats.. not sure how balanced that would be though. Anyways, thanks in advance!
CryoSilver 05-12-07, 01:53 PM	Sorcerers get 4+Int skill points, and a bonus metamagic feat every five levels.
Crimson_Concerto 05-12-07, 02:07 PM	If you haven't found lots of sorcerer fixes, you haven't been looking hard enough. They're seriously all over the place. On a side note, "they aren't that great compaired to a wizard" has never been a valid reason to "fix" a class. All but two, maybe three classes in the entire game "aren't that great compaired to a wizard."
inkeyeshasthecoolestart 05-12-07, 02:11 PM	Sorcerers dont need fixes. Just because they arent as good as wizards doesn't mean they need one. If they did then any non spellcasting class need a fix.
Midnight_v 05-12-07, 02:16 PM	I don't know sorcery gets a lot of love in later books already... but if you insist Give them the better skill points as listed above and follow the path of the "Sorcerer variants" like the Dreadnecro and Warmage. Give them a D6 Giving them bonus metamagic hurts the wizard. I would say give them some heritage feats for free (not just the draconic) Cause it fits thier "flavor" 1st 3rd 6th 9th Any level where they'd want to leave sorcerer. I dont' think the heritage feats are that strong but If you get enough of them they become pretty useful. I would'nt let them pic the order of the feats though! Not till after 10th! I'd give them a choice at level 1 of what they're ancestor was and then they'd get according feats. Draconic, abberation, fiendish, fey. I'd make it worth a damn to play through the low levels of sorcerer. Sounds drastic but it'll really work, basically you've made that "ancestry" schickt into class ablilities which is what it sounds like you want anyway.
Nat_20 05-12-07, 02:18 PM	But they Still need a boost to get people to play them in my opinon, the class does have a cool flavor but are in no way as powerful and a well made wizard... I like the idea of bonus feats at First and every Fifth level, but make them Meta-Magic or Heritage feats.... The creation feats go against the whole natural spell user feel.... I run it as a house class all the time and makes for good competition between the party's Sorcerer and Wizard.
jaelis 05-12-07, 02:20 PM	My own variation, if you're interested. It comes from a sense that sorcs are fun to play as is, I'd just like them to be a little more different from wizards. - Add Intimidate as a class skill - Remove summon familiar - Add: Eschew Materials (Ex): Sorcerers don’t study magic as a formal subject, and typically never learn how to use material components as an aid to casting. At 1st level, a sorcerer receives Eschew Materials as a bonus feat. Instant Mastery (Ex): Sorcerers spend a great deal of time exploring their psyches and pushing their personal limits. Sometimes the things they learn are applicable to more than just their casting ability. At 6th level, a sorcerer receives four ranks in a skill in which the character has no ranks. Bonus Feats (Ex): As a sorcerer continues to temper his spirit to the use of magic, he often discovers a source of inner resiliency. At 11th level a sorcerer may select from Great Fortitude, Iron Will, or Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat. At 16th level, he may select another feat from this list, and at 20th level, he gains the third. If the sorcerer already has one or more of these feats from another source, he gets no benefit from selecting it again. Then the other thing I think they can use is some sensible sorc-oriented PrCs.
Throg 05-12-07, 02:20 PM	If you haven't found lots of sorcerer fixes, you haven't been looking hard enough. They're seriously all over the place. On a side note, "they aren't that great compaired to a wizard" has never been a valid reason to "fix" a class. All but two, amybe three classes in the entire game "aren't that great compaired to a wizard." I just don't see very many upsides to them then the wizard. Even though they cast spells spontaniously, they have a small selection unlike the wizard. If you try to use meta magic, it takes a full round action. Then the wizard gets bonus feats, the -only- thing the sorcerer has going for it is spontaniously casting spells. My DM agrees that the sorcerer could do with a little gain, but is fearing breaking something if too drastic of a change is made, which is why I also inquired about any favoriable reactions to changes people have made. I guess with reserve feats, it makes them more attractable since I'm pretty sure as long as you have a slot still available and a spell of the type on your list, you can get the benifit of the reserve feat.. I'll have to look into the reserve feats more anyways. And I went through every page of the class section, since this would be the most logical place for a sorcerer *fix*. If you know of any, point me in the right direction.
PhaedrusXY 05-12-07, 02:24 PM	Very old: http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-224419
Throg 05-12-07, 02:52 PM	I don't know sorcery gets a lot of love in later books already... but if you insist Give them the better skill points as listed above and follow the path of the "Sorcerer variants" like the Dreadnecro and Warmage. Give them a D6 Giving them bonus metamagic hurts the wizard. I would say give them some heritage feats for free (not just the draconic) Cause it fits thier "flavor" 1st 3rd 6th 9th Any level where they'd want to leave sorcerer. I dont' think the heritage feats are that strong but If you get enough of them they become pretty useful. I would'nt let them pic the order of the feats though! Not till after 10th! I'd give them a choice at level 1 of what they're ancestor was and then they'd get according feats. Draconic, abberation, fiendish, fey. I'd make it worth a damn to play through the low levels of sorcerer. Sounds drastic but it'll really work, basically you've made that "ancestry" schickt into class ablilities which is what it sounds like you want anyway. Yea, but it helps if you have the books... all I've got to work with is pretty much the PHB and whatever books my friends happen to have at the time. Most of the time it's only the PHB though. Only heritage ones I've look through are Draconic, Celestial, and Infernal. But they Still need a boost to get people to play them in my opinon, the class does have a cool flavor but are in no way as powerful and a well made wizard... I like the idea of bonus feats at First and every Fifth level, but make them Meta-Magic or Heritage feats.... The creation feats go against the whole natural spell user feel.... I run it as a house class all the time and makes for good competition between the party's Sorcerer and Wizard. Ya, I wouldn't concider giving them meta magic, completely the wizard's thing. Heritage feats perhaps... maybe even reserve feats, depending on how my DM likes them. My own variation, if you're interested. It comes from a sense that sorcs are fun to play as is, I'd just like them to be a little more different from wizards. - Add Intimidate as a class skill - Remove summon familiar - Add: Eschew Materials (Ex): Sorcerers don’t study magic as a formal subject, and typically never learn how to use material components as an aid to casting. At 1st level, a sorcerer receives Eschew Materials as a bonus feat. Instant Mastery (Ex): Sorcerers spend a great deal of time exploring their psyches and pushing their personal limits. Sometimes the things they learn are applicable to more than just their casting ability. At 6th level, a sorcerer receives four ranks in a skill in which the character has no ranks. Bonus Feats (Ex): As a sorcerer continues to temper his spirit to the use of magic, he often discovers a source of inner resiliency. At 11th level a sorcerer may select from Great Fortitude, Iron Will, or Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat. At 16th level, he may select another feat from this list, and at 20th level, he gains the third. If the sorcerer already has one or more of these feats from another source, he gets no benefit from selecting it again. Then the other thing I think they can use is some sensible sorc-oriented PrCs. Eshew Materials is a nice idea to think about.. I've been talking to my DM about the varient sorcerer in the PHB2 where they lose the familiar but can cast meta magic spells without the extended time. He's unsure of what to do about it right now though.
Crimson_Concerto 05-12-07, 06:19 PM	I just don't see very many upsides to them then the wizard. Even though they cast spells spontaniously, they have a small selection unlike the wizard. If you try to use meta magic, it takes a full round action. Then the wizard gets bonus feats, the -only- thing the sorcerer has going for it is spontaniously casting spells.Actually, no, you've missed a couple of things the sorcerer can do that the wizard can't: 1) More spells per day. Not huge, I admit, especially when Wizards start crafting, but it's worth mentioning, because it does come up, especially at lower levels. B) The Sorcerer can add metamagic spontaneously. Yes, they take longer to cast, but if they didn't, then sorcerers would just be metamagic gods (and with the right feats or alternative class abilities nowadays, they very well still can be). It's even been argued many a time before that sorcerers are in fact better at utilizing metamagic than wizards are, because that can do it on the fly. Sure, the Wizard gets his bonus feats, more spells known, and more skill points, and really, that IS all in all generally better than the Wizard, but believe it or not, some people also find sorcerers a lot easier to play. I'm betting your one of the people who can always pick the right spells to prepare and knows how to utilize crafting well. I'm also betting you have difficulty picking only a set number of spells known. However, while some people are just like you, there are many people who are aweful at playing wizards. They always prepare the wrong spells and are bad at utilizing item creation, making themselves frail and worthless, but they can look at a spell list and immdiately single out the best and most versatile spells to take. So yes, while Wizards are more powerful than Sorcerers for a pure game of numbers, in practise, they often come out the same, and both can easily contribute more than their share to the party and both fill the role of arcane caster capably, differently but capably. Thus, if you're talking only about class power, there is absolutely no need for a fix, and if you do need one, nerfing Wizards by removing their bonus feats is probably a much safer bet for game balance purposes. HOWEVER, I do NOT claim that the sorcerer is perfect and doesn't need to be fixed in some way. I jjst have a different reason than you. MY reason is that with the popularity of Prestige Classes, there is absolutely no reason for a sorcerer to stay a sorcerer forever if a prestige class is easily to qualify for and gives full arcande caster progression, because the only class feature sorcerers lose by this is familiar progression (aka, who cares?). Sorcerers should have class features, probably, yes, but I couldn't imagine giving them something for nothing. After all, why should we be powering up the 4th most powerful core class just because it's not as great as the 3rd most powerful core class?
DireHawk 05-12-07, 07:36 PM	I've House Ruled a few fixes to both the sorcerer and the wizard. Here's what I do: Sorcerer Sorcerers have all of the normal game statistics plus: -Sorcerers get d6 for HP. -Sorcerers are proficient in Light Armor and do not risk Arcane Spell Failure while wearing light armor. -The sorcerer gains Eschew Materials and a Heritage feat as bonus feats at first level. A sorcerer does not get Summon Familiar at first level. -The sorcerer gains a bonus Reserve feat or Heritage feat at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. -Draconic Heritage Feats can be found in Complete Arcane, Dragon Magic, Races of the Dragon. -Fey and Fiendish Heritage Feats can be found in Complete Mage. -Aberrant Heritage/Bloodline feats can be found in Lords of Madness. -Reserve Feats are found in Complete Mage Wizard Wizards have all of the normal game statistics plus: -Wizards are proficient in Light Armor, however, risk of Arcane Spell Failure still applies. Here's my reasoning. Sorcerers should, in my opinion, be more hardy and athletic, since they aren't always studying and stuff like the wizard. Sorcerers are the varsity football players of the magic world, Wizards are the geeky nerds. Sorcerers don't need familiars, since it seems to me their power comes completely from within. A familiar conflicts with this flavor, because its more of an artificial bond, more in line with a wizard. I can't really explain it too well. It just feels right to take familiars away from the sorcerer. Also, since their power tends to be flavored to be originated from some extraordinary bloodline, the heritage feats make sense. Finally, the innatenes of their power also fits with the reserve feats, as well as eschew materials. I gave wizards light armor proficiency because I think only morons would be inhibited by wearing anything short of medium armor. Arcane spell failure still applies, but other than that, I think every class should get at least light armor.
Vaelan 05-12-07, 11:40 PM	The only fix I find myself even moderately inclined towards is getting rid of their delayed progression. It isn't even a particularly hard fix. Just lop level 1 off of the spell progression, split the gain in spells known and spells per day given by level 20 (which happens to be exactly twice the gain given at any other level) into two smaller gains, and renumber. Hitpoints, skill points, and feats are only marginally related to what the class actually does, so fixes that focus on those miss the point.
Phalo 05-12-07, 11:58 PM	[QUOTE=DireHawk;12378604]I've House Ruled a few fixes to both the sorcerer and the wizard. Here's what I do: Sorcerer Sorcerers have all of the normal game statistics plus: -Sorcerers get d6 for HP. -Sorcerers are proficient in Light Armor and do not risk Arcane Spell Failure while wearing light armor. -The sorcerer gains Eschew Materials and a Heritage feat as bonus feats at first level. A sorcerer does not get Summon Familiar at first level. -The sorcerer gains a bonus Reserve feat or Heritage feat at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Why not just play a warmage
turalisj 05-13-07, 12:10 AM	Because the warmage is the red headed stepchild of the arcane world.
Sleepwalker13666 05-13-07, 12:14 AM	My DM gives the sorcerer access to clerical spells, I think it makes them too powerful, but thats her game. When I run (The majority of the time), I don't require them to use material components, but other than that the sorcerer stays the same, but a lot of people in my group have used the battle sorcerer from unearthed arcana, it seems to improve them dramatically.
OneWinged4ngel 05-13-07, 12:35 AM	While I will say that the sorceror has its problems, few of them have to do with power level, and in all honesty they are one of the *upper tier* power level classes. "Not that great compared to a wizard" isn't a reason to fix a class... because almost *everything* is outclassed by the Wizard, with the notable exception of the Cleric and Druid. All I've done for Sorcs in my game, so far, has been to allow a free Signature cantrip of the player's own design or anything from my post (see the link in my sig), give them 4+int skill points, abolish material components, and expand their class skill list to include more charisma-based abilities. It doesn't solve the "always PrC out" problem, but it adds a good deal to the fun and flavor of the class, IMO. Also, check out the fast metamagic PHB II variant and the Runestaffs from PHB II which help out a sorceror's itemization.
Zelck 05-13-07, 12:44 AM	I would: a) Give them a bonus heritage feat at levels 2, 11, and 16. b) At level 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20, the Sorcerer gets an ability allowing them to select another spell known whose spell level is 2 less than the maximum spell level slot he gets from Sorcerer class levels. You can decide whether or not slots from PrC levels are added in. c) Give them 4+int skill points. a) makes them more flavorful and actually allows them to use all those heritage feats floating around. Usually, Sorcerers don't have enough feats to actually get a heritage feat while still getting metamagic, etc. b) makes picking up a PrC a real choice rather than a gimme. If they don't take the PrC, it makes Sorcerers more flexible and allows them to better fill the role of a troubleshooter arcanist. Having an extra second level spell when you can cast fourth level spells isn't exactly great, but it can allow the Sorcerer to pick up a Rope Trick to help the party without feeling like they're gimping themselves. c) gives them skill points more on par with a Wizard's, since they won't have as high of an Int score. If you count the feat equivalents, you'll see this is balanced with the Wizard. Wizards get a locked in bonus feat (Scribe Scroll) at level 1, as well as bonus feats at level 5, 10, 15, and 20. Now look at the Sorcerer. Each of extra spells known ability is worth at most half of a locked-in feat, since the Extra Spell feat gets you a spell of a higher level. So each of those is worth slightly less than half a feat, and there are 8 of them for the equivalent of 4 locked-in feats, which is not as good as the four bonus feats Wizards get. The one at level 4 doesn't count, since it gets you an extra level 0 spell. Yay. The Sorcerer also gets the bonus heritage feat at level 2. Heritage feats (especially the lower level ones) usually aren't that strong, and it's at level 2, so it roughly cancels out with the Scribe Scroll feat. The bonus heritage feats at levels 11 and 16 help bring the value of the less-than-4 locked in feats to the value of 4 flexible feats. Should be pretty balanced, makes PrCs a tough choice, and makes Sorcerers more fun to play.
Misaru 05-13-07, 12:45 AM	If your not liking the bonus meta-magic feats for the sorcerer, why not think about the sudden meta-magic feats from Complete Arcane. Those help quite a bit for a sorcerer.
AllisterH 05-13-07, 12:48 AM	The sorceror shares the same problem as the cleric. No reason to stay in the class after level 1 since they get everything at that level. It certainly isn't the power level (warlocks are pretty much considered weaker than even the themed sorceror like the warmage/dread necromancer but people love them because of the flavour and they aren't THAT weak a la the Samurai or Core-only FTR). Like others, I did the Eschew Materials at 1st level and the Heritage feats at roughly 1 every 4 levels. Works out fine....
Edea 05-13-07, 12:51 AM	Only thing I ever change personally is the delayed spell progression (as in, get rid of it). But, I'm pretty lenient on PrCing, so...
DireHawk 05-13-07, 12:56 AM	I've House Ruled a few fixes to both the sorcerer and the wizard. Here's what I do: Sorcerer Sorcerers have all of the normal game statistics plus: -Sorcerers get d6 for HP. -Sorcerers are proficient in Light Armor and do not risk Arcane Spell Failure while wearing light armor. -The sorcerer gains Eschew Materials and a Heritage feat as bonus feats at first level. A sorcerer does not get Summon Familiar at first level. -The sorcerer gains a bonus Reserve feat or Heritage feat at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Why not just play a warmage Warmages are not sorcerers. Warmages train to produce spells specifically for war. This is why they have access to a large number of spells, but all relatively focused towards the theme of blowing things up real good. This is also why they get the sudden metamagic feats, and they can cast in armor. They learn to reduce the somatic components to make them simpler. Sorcerers, on the other hand, get much fewer spells, but no limit on what they can select. I also believe they should get armor usage as the warmage does because they don't need to train as a warmage to reduce the complexity of the somatic component. These movements just flow more naturally and more intuitively. Plus, as I pointed out, my sorcerers get the heritage/reserve feats. So yes, I've made sorcerers more like the warmage. But they are still not the warmage, they are very much different.
Throg 05-13-07, 11:14 AM	While I will say that the sorceror has its problems, few of them have to do with power level, and in all honesty they are one of the *upper tier* power level classes. "Not that great compared to a wizard" isn't a reason to fix a class... because almost *everything* is outclassed by the Wizard, with the notable exception of the Cleric and Druid. All I've done for Sorcs in my game, so far, has been to allow a free Signature cantrip of the player's own design or anything from my post (see the link in my sig), give them 4+int skill points, abolish material components, and expand their class skill list to include more charisma-based abilities. It doesn't solve the "always PrC out" problem, but it adds a good deal to the fun and flavor of the class, IMO. Also, check out the fast metamagic PHB II variant and the Runestaffs from PHB II which help out a sorceror's itemization. I definately picked the wrong wording in my first post, I admit, since it seems to have ticked off two people so far :p heh, anyways.. It seems people have the same general idea.. Giving them the heritage feats, getting rid of the familiar for fast meta magic perhaps, giving eschew materials, things of that nature. I'm also curious of the faster spell pregression, how does that look exactly?
Arcane Guyver 05-13-07, 01:20 PM	I used to be keen on eliminating the familiar, but...those critters do provide you with something interesting at odd-numbered levels. Currently, I just give the sorcerer Intimidate as a class skill and make the familiar free and available right from the start. Something I was thinking about doing (before I got the itch to minimize houserules) is grant every sorcerer an 'arcane domain,' found in Unearthed Arcana. Basically, a Sorcerer would get an extra cantrip known at 1st level, then at 2nd level and every even-numbered level thereafter (except 20th), they'd gain an extra spell for the next highest level. And this arcane domain is not considered part of your arcane spellcasting (so you basically forfeit some spells known to prestige out).
Ninetails Demon 05-13-07, 05:34 PM	Here was a fix another fellow (can't remember his name, it was a while back) and myself worked out online. We didn't think the changes were too overpowering, but they distinguished the sorcerer as the specialist of spontaneous casting while granting incentives to staying the course. Sorcerer: Class Skills The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). See Chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions. Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) × 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Summon familiar, Eschew materials 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 - 3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 - 4th +2 +1 +1 +4 - 5th +2 +1 +1 +4 - 6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Adaptive metamagic 7th +3 +2 +2 +5 - 8th +4 +2 +2 +6 - 9th +4 +3 +3 +6 Familiar Unity 10th +5 +3 +3 +7 - 11th +5 +3 +3 +7 - 12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Improved eschew materials 13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 - 14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 - 15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 Bonus Feat 16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 - 17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 - 18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Ignore Material Components 19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 - 20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Bonus Feat CLASS FEATURES All of the following are class features of the sorcerer. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a sorcerer’s arcane gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail. Summon Familiar: As written in the Player's Handbook. Eschew Materials: A sorcerer gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level. Adaptive Metamagic: Starting at 6th level, a sorcerer may cast a spell enhanced by metamagic with no increase in casting time. Familiar Unity: At 9th level, a sorcerer gains either Improved Familiar as a bonus feat or Spiritual Bond (See Below) as a supernatural ability. Spiritual Bond (Su): A sorcerer has learned to make use of the bond that links them to their familiar in such a way that they can directly control it's actions through an act of will. A sorcerer using this ability can directly control his familiar while it is within 1 mile, and see through its eyes. While using this ability however, the sorcerer cannot take any other actions and must maintain concentration as though maintaining a spell. Improved Eschew Materials: Starting at 12th level, a sorcerer may substitute the costly material components of a spell with similar materials of no less than 2/3 the value of the original material components. Bonus Feat: At 15th, and 20th level, a sorcerer may choose a metamagic feat, bloodline feat, Extra Slot, or Extra Spell as a bonus feat. Ignore Material Components: At 18th level, a sorcerer gains Ignore Material Components as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.
thenightlords 05-14-07, 06:01 PM	To be honest I don't think the sorcerer needs anything but just a note I think a few extra skill points and maybe (I mean really maybe) a magic feat every five levels. But to keep in mind I have played under 4 DM's that made changes to the sorcerer and all made the class over powered or just screwed up their games. So if you want change anything think 3 or 4 times to be sure.
Johnny_Angel 05-14-07, 07:33 PM	I haven't made any changes, but here are a few of the ideas I have kicked around before: Instead of the normal 2+Int skill point progression, give them 4+Int... the flavor text says that since they don't learn from books that they generally have time to learn to do other things. d6 hit dice instead of d4 Free rapid metamagic (metamagic doesn't cause sorc spells to take longer) and Free eschew materials Note: I wasn't considering doing all of these at once; these were just a few adjustments which I figured would be minor enough to not be overpowering but still do enough to help out.
RainerNader 05-14-07, 10:50 PM	Someone brought this up in some other thread, but I'll reiterate it here: The gloriousness of the sorcerer is paradoxical, in that there is NO reason to stay in the class. You have the worst BAB, worst hit dice, worst skill points, and only one good save. Any prestige class that offers full spellcasting progression is GUARANTEED to improve your sorcerer without ANY cost whatsoever*. While every other class** has to agonize over the tradeoffs for entering a prestige class or doing any other multiclassing, all you have to do is survive through your five levels of sorcerer and the wealth of options to you are infinite. This is why I'm amused at all the sorcerer "fixes" -- no need to house rule anything, just ditch the class as soon as you can! *I know you're tempted tempted to mention familiar progression as a tradeoff, but let's be serious here. **I also know you're tempted to mention the cleric as having no tradeoffs beyond Turn Undead, but it does. The cleric still has a decent BAB and hit die and two good saves, many prestige classes that offer full spellcasting progression usually have a worse BAB or hit die. Also, many domains are based on cleric level (such as the Strength domain) so you make that tradeoff as well.
Keladelros 05-14-07, 11:24 PM	Gawd I love sorcerers. They're awesome IMO. I find that although they have limited spells to choose from, they're ability to cast the same spells over and over again makes them very valuable. Though the wizard has a much more varied spell list, they have to prepare spells. Which means that although they can choose which spells they can cast from a varied list at the beginning of the day. Once they choose that spell to cast, it is gone for the day unless they prepared it twice or three times. Sorcerers however, can cast a fireball or lightningbolt repeatedly in combat. They're ability to cast more spells per day makes them invaluable. Though a lot of sorceres are keyed to combat, they really can't be matched by a wizard if they are. Though it is true that a wizard does get their bonus feats, I find that that is the major shortcoming of sorcerers. No reason to ditch the class in my opinion if you don't want to. BUT, I put it on my most likely to multiclass list right there with barbarians and rangers. No fixes here
Nat_20 05-15-07, 03:21 AM	Just a comment, the whole sorcerer fix threads are starting to get as numerous as the "Fighters suck" threads... and both give good points, that was back then, this is now... (No offense WotC...) But no one at WotC has the stones to upright and say "We made a mistake and heres the solution" for these classes, they just make new ones, or make you use up your feats per level (and for a sorcerer i can think of many in which they can be better spent) on fixing the class, and even If WotC does remake these classes, you will need to but new books and those of us who cant buy the books will be stuck with the old underdeveloped classes... WotC should just do an errata and post it on Wizards.com so people can freely access it... and here is MY sorcerer build... Hit Dice: D4, while not as book wormish as wizards, having arcane power limits the need to be better built. Skills: (4+int mod)x4 at first level. Not having to pour your intire life into books and experiments, the sorcerer learns more "tricks of the trade" Class skills are as follows. Bluff, Concentrate, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (local), Profession, and Spellcraft. Class abilities: Metamagic Specialist (as in PHBII) Or familiar, And at 1st and every 5 levels gains a Metamagic or Heritage feat. Spell casting (With no slowed spell lvl progression. Ignore first level spells known and keep same for 19th and 20th lvl) There, take it or leave it, a Sorcerer I have had fun playing for a while and is not in the least bit unbalancing nor over/under-powered... And Metamagic in MY opinion is shaping the spells as you see fit to use and wield, natural magic talent anyone?
Deep Blue 9000 05-15-07, 04:16 AM	Only thing I ever change personally is the delayed spell progression (as in, get rid of it). But, I'm pretty lenient on PrCing, so... Honestly, I think that's all Sorcs need to be equal to Wizards. Bonus feats and skills are nice but spell level is where the real power is.
Throg 05-15-07, 08:08 AM	So... How does the full spell progression look like on sorcs? Trying to wrap my head around the way it was explained and can't figure it out.
Arcane Guyver 05-15-07, 01:47 PM	So... How does the full spell progression look like on sorcs? Trying to wrap my head around the way it was explained and can't figure it out. Just take the standard Sorcerer Spells Per Day, but alter it so the 2nd-level through 9th level spells are gained one level earlier than normal (and change it so that they get 5 9th-level spells at 19th level).
Nat_20 05-15-07, 02:01 PM	For their 1st level spells, give them the 2nd level spells known, so instead of 4 0th level and 2 1st level spells thay get 5 0th and 2 1st level spells And when they get to 20th level give the spells known, but add one 6th level spell known, so at level 20 they have 9 0th, 5 1st and 2nd, 4 3rd 4th 5th and 6th, and 3 spells known for 7th 8th and 9th level spells... Did that make sense?
Keladelros 05-15-07, 03:10 PM	I still don't know why everyone thinks that the sorcerer class needs fixing. Perhaps if someone would re-iterate it for me, I would be more able to see the opposing points of view. Compare them to Wizards if you can please so that we have a baseline to go off of.
Throg 05-17-07, 08:15 AM	I still don't know why everyone thinks that the sorcerer class needs fixing. Perhaps if someone would re-iterate it for me, I would be more able to see the opposing points of view. Compare them to Wizards if you can please so that we have a baseline to go off of. Well, compaired to Wizards - 1) Their main casting stat is not Int, so -usually- have less skill points then the wizard 2) They don't have the amount of feats as a wizard 3) They can't utilize meta-magic like the wizard can (IE, Wizards can make use of Quicken Spell, Sorc's can't because of the full round casting of anything using meta magic) 4) They have a stunted Spell Level Progression, getting 2nd level spells at 4th level then every 2 levels after that, getting access to the powerful spells that a wizard gets a level earlier. I do not see spontanious casting offsetting these inferiorities. A Sorcerer -should- be at least on par with a wizard at every level. No class should be a 3-5 level dip then get out into a prc as fast as possible. That's what I hate about my friend when he makes rogues, he -always- takes a 3 level dip into Swashbuckler for the insightful strike or whatever it is, you don't need to take anymore and the class offers very little at higher levels. Sorcerer is nice in the fact you don't have to worry about how many of X spell to prepare in a slot, but the counter to that is the few spells you can actually cast from. A Wizard on the otherhand can prepare for any situation that he expects to fight that day, and if he finds out the situation has changed, if it's nothing in need of doing right this second, he can spend 15 minutes to change his spells. I think with a non stunted spell progression and getting rid of the meta magic full round casting would put them on par with wizards in terms of power. My DM still has no idea what he wants to do, but ah well. I'll get it figured out and all that.
Vaelan 05-17-07, 09:22 AM	So... How does the full spell progression look like on sorcs? Trying to wrap my head around the way it was explained and can't figure it out. Level Spells Known Altered Spells Known 1st 4/2 5/2 2nd 5/2 5/3 3rd 5/3 6/3/1 4th 6/3/1 6/4/2 5th 6/4/2 7/4/2/1 6th 7/4/2/1 7/5/3/2 7th 7/5/3/2 8/5/3/2/1 8th 8/5/3/2/1 8/5/4/3/2 9th 8/5/4/3/2 9/5/4/3/2/1 10th 9/5/4/3/2/1 9/5/5/4/3/2 11th 9/5/5/4/3/2 9/5/5/4/3/2/1 12th 9/5/5/4/3/2/1 9/5/5/4/4/3/2 13th 9/5/5/4/4/3/2 9/5/5/4/4/3/2/1 14th 9/5/5/4/4/3/2/1 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2 15th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2/1 16th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2/1 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2 17th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2/1 18th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2/1 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/2 19th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/2 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/2 20th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 All I did was cut off the top level, move everything up, and change the progression of ninth-level spells to match the progression of the other spell levels (1,2,2,3 rather than 1,2,3), which creates a new level 20. For Spells/day... Level Spells/day Altered Spells/day 1st 5/3 6/4 2nd 6/4 6/5 3rd 6/5 6/6/3 4th 6/6/3 6/6/4 5th 6/6/4 6/6/5/3 6th 6/6/5/3 6/6/6/4 7th 6/6/6/4 6/6/6/5/3 8th 6/6/6/5/3 6/6/6/6/4 9th 6/6/6/6/4 6/6/6/6/5/3 10th 6/6/6/6/5/3 6/6/6/6/6/4 11th 6/6/6/6/6/4 6/6/6/6/6/5/3 12th 6/6/6/6/6/5/3 6/6/6/6/6/6/4 13th 6/6/6/6/6/6/4 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 14th 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4 15th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 16th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4 17th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 18th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4 19th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5 20th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 Once again, all I did was cut off the top level, move everything up, and change the progression of ninth-level spells so that they match the progression of the other levels (3,4,5,6 rather than 3,4,6), which creates a new level 20. When you see how the pattern is broken by ninth-level spells, it is quite clear that they had originally planned to not have the spell level delay, since it is a matter of the progression ending one level early.
Keenath 05-17-07, 10:13 AM	A while back I posted about a variant that might work for you. This is based on furthering the idea is that a sorcerer controls magic in its most primal form, and allows him to exchange efficiency for much-needed flexibility. Intuitive Magic (or Instinctual Magic) At 2nd level and each even level thereafter, the Sorcerer gains "Intuitive Magic X" where X is the level of their highest available spell slot. (Thus, Intutive Magic 1 at 2nd level, Intuitive Magic 2 at 4th, and so on.) Intuitive Magic is a supernatural ability that allows a sorcerer to give up on efficiency and training, using brute force and instinct to force the magic to do as he wills. The sorcerer may select any spell off his spell list, regardless of whether he knows the spell or not, and attempt to cast it as a full round action (or longer, if the spell has a longer casting time). This action is treated in all ways as casting a spell (thus it provokes AOOs, requires components, can be disrupted or counterspelled, etc.). To successfully use this ability, the sorcerer must make a caster level check DC 10 + (2 x spell level). If the caster level check is successful, the sorcerer spends two spell slots of the same level as the spell he is attempting to cast, and the spell operates normally. If the check fails, he loses only one spell slot of that spell's level and gains no benefit or further effect from it. If the casting is disrupted by a failed concentration check, treat it as if the caster level check had failed, losing only one spell slot instead of two. A spell emulated in this manner cannot be used to meet any prerequisites, including item creation, PRC membership, or feats; casting it does not represent any level of expertise, only an instinct for the workings of magic. ----- Reasoning: I want to give a little bit of explanation as to why I think this is a useful ability. Sorcs don't get the benefit of their vaunted 'spontaneous casting' ability when they first gain a new spell level, because they have only one known spell of that level, and therefore have no choice about what to use the slots for (barring metamagic). This ability does not directly address that issue, but provides an alternate use for their spell slots. Second, Sorcs have so few spells known, they don't really fit the concept of spontaneously pulling out the best tool for the job; that's what wizards do with scrolls or by prepping spells that are going to be useful against today's enemies. The bard has more spells known than he can cast in a day -- he's the one with the real spontaneous caster flavor. Moreover, sorcs have no class features, and thus no real reason to stick to their class once they can qualify for any full-caster PRC. Even one with abilities they don't particularly need is better than the sorcerer base class. This ability gives a sorcerer a reason to remain the base class; leaving it means he still gains new spellcasting, but can't use this ability to pull out new spells for his highest spell levels. Plus, with this ability, a sorcerer isn't totally screwed when none of his known spells will work against a given enemy... but he can't keep it up for long, and it's by no means certain that he can do it anyway. Note that by 11th level, a sorcerer would always succeed his caster level check on 1st level spells. This is intentional and should not affect play greatly -- 1st level spells are quite weak by that time, and the 25 gp cost for a scroll of the spell means he could easily carry around a virtual library of scrolls for a tiny fraction of his character wealth -- so having access to "all the 1st level spells" is not really a big deal.
Gr8tyrant 05-17-07, 10:36 AM	If you are looking for simple and helpful, we just turned their hit dice into d6 and their skill points into 4 + int. I think we also added intimdate, use magic device (so they have a chance to use clerical wands) and diplomacy to their skill list. It isn't a lot, but a couple extra HP and skills makes them more versitile and a pretty good alternative. BTW - I really like the Intuitive Magic ability Keenath
RobbyPants 05-17-07, 10:41 AM	I've House Ruled a few fixes to both the sorcerer and the wizard. Here's what I do: Sorcerer Sorcerers have all of the normal game statistics plus: -Sorcerers get d6 for HP. -Sorcerers are proficient in Light Armor and do not risk Arcane Spell Failure while wearing light armor. -The sorcerer gains Eschew Materials and a Heritage feat as bonus feats at first level. A sorcerer does not get Summon Familiar at first level. -The sorcerer gains a bonus Reserve feat or Heritage feat at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. -Draconic Heritage Feats can be found in Complete Arcane, Dragon Magic, Races of the Dragon. -Fey and Fiendish Heritage Feats can be found in Complete Mage. -Aberrant Heritage/Bloodline feats can be found in Lords of Madness. -Reserve Feats are found in Complete Mage This is simlar to what I do: I offer the player a choice when they take their 1st level of sorcerer: Do they have a heritage or not? If so, what kind (draconic, fey, infernal, etc...)? If they do not, they gain Eschew Materials at 1st level, and a bonus metamagic or item creation feat at 5, 10, 15, and 20. If they do have a heritage, they gain the appropriate heritage base feat at 1st level, and a bonus heritage feat (of the same type) at 5, 10, 15, and 20. It doesn't add much, but it puts them on par with the wizard...
Lacyon 05-17-07, 12:46 PM	When you see how the pattern is broken by ninth-level spells, it is quite clear that they had originally planned to not have the spell level delay, since it is a matter of the progression ending one level early. I don't think that's necessarily true. If you look at wizard/cleric/druid 8th and 9th-level spells/day progression (1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4 and 1, 2, 3, 4 respectively) as compared to all their other levels (1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4) it appears that they just started squashing the progressions down for 9th-level spells because they wanted to max out at 20th level across the board for the sake of convenience. Once they made the decision to squash the progression on one class, it probably just made sense to do it to all the others. -Lacyon
Quixotico 05-17-07, 12:54 PM	Here's an idea I've had on the matter. Up the HD to a d6 Gain Eschew Materials and one Heritage Feat at level 1, don't receive a familiar. Gain a free Heritage Feat at every fifth level. (5, 10, 15, 20) Starting at level 3, a Sorcerer may cast Prestidigitation (whether they know the spell or not) a number of times per day equal to their Charisma bonus plus a third of their Sorcerer level. This is a spell-like ability. (So a 9th level Sorcerer with a Charisma of 17 would be able to use Prestidigitation 6 times per day) The Prestidigitation thing is just something to reinforce the way magic comes naturally to Sorcerors.
Nat_20 05-17-07, 09:29 PM	I personally don't like the idea of a sorcerer having D6's for hit points, yeah, they are not couped up in a library all day, why the increased hit points, its not like he is gonna be up front and in there and Need the extra hits, i doesn't have to be there, i just like the feats, skills and moved over spell progression.
Darth Sephiroth 05-17-07, 09:43 PM	Reasons Why Wizards Are Better Than Sorcerers Skills: Wizards are Int based and so have more skill points per level, they also have far more Int based skills than the Sorcerer has Cha based ones. Feats: The Wizard gains them while the Sorcerer does not. Casting: Pretty much balanced with Sorcerers spontanious casting being slower compared to the Wizards prepared casting being faster. Metamagic is what messes up the balance, Sorcerer's inability to effectively use metamagic on their spells hurts badly, especially with the lack of feats for a Sorcerer. Balancing Sorcerers And Wizards Skills: Raise to 4+Int, add Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device to class skills. Feats: Sorcerers gain Eschew Material Components at 1st level and a bonus Metamagic or Heritage feat at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Familiar: Sorcerers do not gain a familiar Casting: Sorcerers cast metamagic without penalty
Nathreet 05-17-07, 10:06 PM	The sorc isn't that bad. Take, for example, the proposed fix to give him the same max spell level as a wizard. Now he has more spells per day, more different spells to choose from for most levels and the same spell levels as a wizard. Only downside is the ability to swap in new spells. Buy some low level scrolls and you're set for everything except high level utility spells. Oh no, how weak! :rolleyes: Seriously, that would make one broken and overpowered sorceror. People tend to overlook the fact that sorcs get both more spells per day and more spells known than a wizard (i.e., the sorc's spells known is more than the wizard's spells per day for most levels). Only difference is that the sorc can't swap in new spells from a spellbook. That gives the wizard an advantage when the party knows what it will be facing (hence, what kind of spells to prepare), but otherwise the wizard is at a disadvantage. Hence the need to nerf the sorceror somehow. WotC chose to make the sorceror 1/2 a spell level behind. Too much? Maybe. But you have to realize that without this nerf the sorc is very much overpowered compared to a wizard. Sorcerors have their role, and they aren't weaker so much as they are different. Any party that already has a wizard to handle oddball encounters should then grab a specialist sorceror, not another wizard. The sorceror's main weakness is coming up against a challenge that they don't have a spell for. Mind you, wizards have the same weakness in a surprise encounter. I am refering to planned encounters. The real problem with the sorceror seems to be the temptation to PrC it. I mean, there's no downside at all. But the extra benefits of a caster PrC are hardly phenomenol.
Arcane Guyver 05-17-07, 10:10 PM	The sorc isn't that bad. He's got it right. The sorcerer really doesn't need boosting; he just needs a reason to not prestige out (if that option is available). The familiar is one reason, but many spellcasters opt to not acquire one.
Dionon 05-17-07, 10:54 PM	Check my Signature, you'll find a class marked Dynamic Sorcerer... It's a system for a Sorcerer with a VERY radical theorem behind it....
Vaelan 05-17-07, 11:46 PM	Take, for example, the proposed fix to give him the same max spell level as a wizard. Now he has more spells per day, more different spells to choose from for most levels and the same spell levels as a wizard. 1. The most highly-valued strength of the Wizard lies in the fact that it can have the perfect spell memorized, whereas a Sorcerer generally won't have the perfect spell known. This change doesn't touch that particular aspect of the Wizard's superiority. The Wizard also has an easier time creating redundancies, since it has access to spells it can't cast every day in order to make scrolls and wands. 2. The matter of the number of different spells is more complicated than your post implies. You're comparing a generalist to a Sorcerer whereas the designers have stated quite explicitly that their balance considerations take a specialist Wizard into account, not a generalist (see: discussions on Elf Wizard sub level). Comparing a specialist to an altered Sorcerer... Level Specialist Wizard Spells/day Altered Sorcerer Spells Known 1 4/2 5/2 2 5/3 5/3 3 5/3/2 6/3/1 4 5/4/3 6/4/2 5 5/4/3/2 7/4/2/1 6 5/4/4/3 7/5/3/2 7 5/5/4/3/2 8/5/3/2/1 8 5/5/4/4/3 8/5/4/3/2 9 5/5/5/4/3/2 9/5/4/3/2/1 10 5/5/5/4/4/3 9/5/5/4/3/2 11 5/5/5/5/4/3/2 9/5/5/4/3/2/1 12 5/5/5/5/4/4/3 9/5/5/4/4/3/2 13 5/5/5/5/5/4/3/2 9/5/5/4/4/3/2/1 14 5/5/5/5/5/4/4/3 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2 15 5/5/5/5/5/5/4/3/2 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2/1 16 5/5/5/5/5/5/4/4/3 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2 17 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/4/3/2 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2/1 18 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/4/4/3 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/2 19 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/4/4 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/2 20 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 If you bother to look at the progressions, you will find the Wizard has a marked advantage in that the Sorcerer trades having more spells of the highest levels for up to 4 more cantrips.
Arcane Guyver 05-18-07, 12:00 AM	The most highly-valued strength of the Wizard lies in the fact that it can have the perfect spell memorized... I don't see how this is such an amazing advantage, as a Sorcerer can just as easily purchase some oddball scrolls that they think might come in handy while they're in town. They add spells they cast all the time to their spells known, and use scrolls for the rest. From experience, this is not a big deal, as long as the DM isn't running a nonstandard world where scrolls aren't available for purchase. You're comparing a generalist to a Sorcerer whereas the designers have stated quite explicitly that their balance considerations take a specialist Wizard into account... Unfortunately, you won't find too many people on these boards that bother with specializing, as that option removes whole swaths of spells from your spell list. What you get is a caster who wants a similar number of spells per day as a sorcerer, but with a spell list that's actually smaller than a sorcerer's (though you do get easier access to fun stuff from Complete Mage).
eggplantm 05-18-07, 06:27 AM	I did just that for my sorcerers. They get a heritage feat at first level which can be draconic, fiendish or celestial. At fifth level and every 5th level they gain a bonus feat that can be any heritage feat they meat the prerquisites for or a metamagic feat. It has worked out fine.
Vaelan 05-18-07, 07:08 AM	I don't see how this is such an amazing advantage, as a Sorcerer can just as easily purchase some oddball scrolls that they think might come in handy while they're in town. Personally, I don't either because I'm good at picking spell lists for Sorcerers. However, it is the most common benefit cited on these forums. Unfortunately, you won't find too many people on these boards that bother with specializing, as that option removes whole swaths of spells from your spell list. Divination specialists are quite common, both in games I have played and in examples I have seen on these boards. The most common claim is that you can bar Evocation and use Conjuration spells as a replacement when needed. However, everything I have stated holds true if you use the Elven Wizard substitution level that replaces specialization without limiting your spell choices. The Sorcerer still ends up with more low-level slots and fewer high-level slots, though the effect is not as pronounced.
Throg 05-18-07, 09:08 AM	I don't see how this is such an amazing advantage, as a Sorcerer can just as easily purchase some oddball scrolls that they think might come in handy while they're in town. They add spells they cast all the time to their spells known, and use scrolls for the rest. From experience, this is not a big deal, as long as the DM isn't running a nonstandard world where scrolls aren't available for purchase. Unfortunately, you won't find too many people on these boards that bother with specializing, as that option removes whole swaths of spells from your spell list. What you get is a caster who wants a similar number of spells per day as a sorcerer, but with a spell list that's actually smaller than a sorcerer's (though you do get easier access to fun stuff from Complete Mage). With scrolls, a Wizard still has more of them then the sorcerer. Crafting scrolls is a joke on the xp loss aspect, a much bigger gain for the loss and the wizard can pump out more then the sorcerer could hope to buy.. well -twice- as much in effect... Sure the Wizard could eventually be a level behind the sorcerer, but then he's still on par with how powerful of spells he has in comparison, and has more magical items on him. Here is the faster progression I came up with, I think it works abit better imho and is what I'll show my DM.. Spells per Day 0 lvl 1 lvl 2 lvl 3 lvl 4 lvl 5 lvl 6 lvl 7 lvl 8 lvl 9 lvl 1st 5 3 * * * * * * * * 2nd 6 4 * * * * * * * * 3rd 6 5 3 * * * * * * * 4th 6 6 4 * * * * * * * 5th 6 6 5 3 * * * * * * 6th 6 6 6 4 * * * * * * 7th 6 6 6 5 3 * * * * * 8th 6 6 6 6 4 * * * * * 9th 6 6 6 6 5 3 * * * * 10th 6 6 6 6 6 4 * * * * 11th 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 * * * 12th 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 * * * 13th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 * * 14th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 * * 15th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 * 16th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 * 17th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 18th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 19th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 20th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 Spells Known 0 lvl 1 lvl 2 lvl 3 lvl 4 lvl 5 lvl 6 lvl 7 lvl 8 lvl 9 lvl 1st 4 2 * * * * * * * * 2nd 5 2 * * * * * * * * 3rd 5 3 1 * * * * * * * 4th 6 3 2 * * * * * * * 5th 6 4 2 1 * * * * * * 6th 7 4 3 2 * * * * * * 7th 7 5 3 2 1 * * * * * 8th 8 5 4 3 2 * * * * * 9th 8 5 4 3 2 1 * * * * 10th 9 5 5 4 3 2 * * * * 11th 9 5 5 4 3 2 1 * * * 12th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 * * * 13th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 * * 14th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 * * 15th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 * 16th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 * 17th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 18th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 19th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 20th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 From what I'm seeing, the Sorcerer is still *weaker* then the wizard, just gets access to the nice spells at the same pace. Out of 9th level spells, he knows 3 out of 25, 3 out of 35 8th level spells, ect. With a wizard, you don't -have- to buy those spells like the sorc, just find a copy and scribe it into a spell book, then BAM, you can cast it if you prepare it in one of the 4+ spell slots you have, then spend the money you saved on better magic items. A Sorc has to keep buying the same spell over and over and over again in order to cast it. I don't mind the lack of feats given the changes of faster spell progression and getting faster meta magic, that in my eyes would equal them out. I can live without the feats and the skills easily.
Vaelan 05-19-07, 04:01 PM	I forgot to mention the effect of bonus spells on this comparison. The fact that they are relevant to Wizards and not Sorcerers is yet another point to refute the claim that Sorcerers get more different spells than Wizards.
Arcane Guyver 05-20-07, 04:37 AM	*sighs* Well, I guess I better respond to this. Statistically, number-crunching...the wizard does seem to come out on top. The problem is that the sorcerer's strengths are best shown in-game. Yes, they know fewer spells, but they have all those spells available at all times. Then there's the spontaneous advantage - you can adapt to changing conditions on the battlefield on the spot, applying metamagic feats or casting lower-level spells with higher-level spell slots if it proves effective. Here's the thing - wizards can be good spontaneously in the battlefield as well, but this requires consumables (wands, scrolls, and what-have-you). Kinda like how sorcerers can be good with oddball 'once-in-a-blue-moon' spells via consumables. In the end, fretting over power discrepencies is a bit silly. "The sorcerer isn't as good as the wizard." Well, shoot, that puts it in with the majority of other character classes that isn't named 'Artificer,' 'Cleric,' or 'Druid.'
UnknownMourner 05-20-07, 08:11 PM	I give them a nerfed warlock blast. This keeps the class a bit more worth it, makes the long march to 2nd level spells a little less painful, takes some of the pressure off to choose blaster spells, and really aint too much more than a reserve feat. At second level you gain an energy bolt that deals energy damage as a ranged touch attack standard action and has a short range (25 + 5/2 levels). If you choose fire, cold, electricity or acid the attack deals 1d6 damage. If you choose sonic or force damage the attack deals 1d4 damage. Every even level thereafter you gain another die. This effect is a spell-like ability that produces an attack of opportunity just like a spell. This attack is affected by Spell Resistance. There is no limit to the number of times per day you can use this ability.