Post/Author/DateTime	Post
20102000 12-15-03, 03:55 PM	Anybody know why shapeshifters were removed as a choice of favored enemies for rangers in 3.5 ?
Shadowfoot 12-15-03, 04:00 PM	Because Shapeshifter is now a subtype in 3.5, not its own type.
Aramek 12-15-03, 04:19 PM	Just curious... What happened October 20th 2000?
20102000 12-16-03, 02:09 AM	On 20102000 I had to think of a user id :0 So does anyone know why Humanoid - Shapechanger isn't a permitted favoured enemy
20102000 12-20-03, 11:56 AM	bump
ksbsnowowl 12-20-03, 12:56 PM	bump Why the bump? Shadowfoot answered the question with the exact (and only) reason. You aren't going to get any more reasons that make sense, because there are none.
Eltheynn 12-20-03, 04:17 PM	Originally posted by ksbsnowowl Why the bump? Shadowfoot answered the question with the exact (and only) reason. You aren't going to get any more reasons that make sense, because there are none. He asked a second question, actually.... Originally posted by 20102000 So does anyone know why Humanoid - Shapechanger isn't a permitted favoured enemy To which I answer: Check all possible FAQS and Erratas (WotC has an official FAQ/Erratta/Whatever for 3.5 on the D&D site), for it might have been overlooked (just as the exemptio of XP penalties with PrC's was). Either that, or Humanoid-Shapechanger is not valid as other subtypes are not available as well....
ksbsnowowl 12-20-03, 05:00 PM	Originally posted by Eltheynn He asked a second question, actually.... Doh!....I'm an idiot:embarrass
20102000 12-20-03, 06:17 PM	Well theres nothing in any errata about it. And as a rule it doesn't make sense that you can choose elves as a favoured enemies but not wererats. So i'm guessing its just been misses.
Shadowfax7 12-21-03, 10:04 AM	I would say that it was left out on purpose . . . shapeshifters, like Lycanthropes, have more than one form, thus one form will be human (or humanoid). If a FE bonus is given should it apply to both forms, all forms (if can change to more than one form) or just one form ?? Is it fair to give the bonus to the Were-form and not to the base form (unchanged) ?? What about spellcasters and spells that allow you to change form, should the bonus apply to them as well ?? As you can see it is not cut and dry, causing balancing issues everywhere. I would not allow shapeshifters as a FE. :eek:
20102000 12-21-03, 01:12 PM	The favored enemy bonus is supposed to represent the rangers extensive study and training vs a particular enemy. So if your studing shapechangers, it would apply to all forms. Also bear in mind the defination of a shapechanger "Shapechanger Subtype: A shapechanger has the supernatural ability to assume one or more alternate forms. Many magical effects allow some kind of shape shifting, and not every creature that can change shapes has the shapechanger subtype. " So this wouldn't include shapechanging by spell ability. I can understand and argument that says the FE needs to be more specific for shapechangers. For instance a FE of humanoid-shapechanger-lycanthrope. But to not allow some creatures as FE doesn't make sense.
Shadowfax7 12-21-03, 04:41 PM	I see your argument regarding spellcasters shapechanged by spell . . . point made, but there are still many questions out there. Like if a Ranger goes to strike a human during the day who is a werewolf on full moons does the FE bonus apply ?? at night w/o a full moon ?? etc. . . Either way, I am glad it is not listed as a FE chooseable by the Ranger. IMO there are enough choices as is. You can always house rule it back. :)
20102000 12-21-03, 05:54 PM	But your allowed dopplegangers as a FE (monsterous humanoid) , and you get the bonus in all of their forms. If you took Giants as a FE, you would get the bonus vs as giant shapechangers in all there forms.
q'afuu 12-21-03, 06:21 PM	FE (Shapechangers) or even (Werecreatures) would be too broad a group. FE (Werewolves) or any other specific kind of shapechanger would be too small a selection to be enough of a benefit. Just my opinion, but it makes sense to me.
detectevil 12-21-03, 06:53 PM	I cannot prove it, but I'm under the impression that a favored enemy bonus works over the creatures original form. So, if a shapeshifter is basicly a human turned into a wolf, your bonus against humans will work, not your bonus against wolfs.
20102000 12-22-03, 12:49 PM	I think the rule your thinking of is that the FE bonus only applies when the creature is in the FE enemy form. For example if you took FE humanoid elves, when fighting an elf you would get the bonus, however if the elf polymorphed it self into a dwarf, you wouldn't get the bonus, even though the creature is still an elf.
Darth K'Trava 12-22-03, 07:32 PM	And how would you know it was a shapechanger to start with? Unless your DM told you..... which most don't until the end or if you make a high enough knowledge roll.
20102000 12-23-03, 04:09 PM	Originally posted by Darth K'Trava And how would you know it was a shapechanger to start with? Unless your DM told you..... which most don't until the end or if you make a high enough knowledge roll. That begs the question do you get your FE bonus if you don't know what your fighting? Such as if they we're invisable, and that applies to everything, not just shapechangers.
mercurywyrm 12-23-03, 08:26 PM	Finally, the silliest mechanic I have seen in D&D takes a beating!!! I think the favored enemy thing is very silly because some of the strage situations that can occur when you are not aware of what your enemy is. Is an elf who changed to a hobgoblin with the change self spell an elf or a hobgoblin as far as favored enemy hobgoblin is concerned, they probably don't move or think like a hobgoblin, or have hobgoblin style training, but they are physically a hobgoblin, and if they are, what differences are there bettween elf and hobgoblin that specifically make the ranger's bonus possible. I much perfer the form of favored enemies from Dragonlance where you can take an organization as an enemy because the training offered by those organizations might make for certain weaknesses in defense and defects in ability to hide tracks and such. But still, would you get a favored enemy bonus if you didn't recognize something as your favored enemy? What about a favored enemy makes them especially vulnerable to your style, and if they are vulnerable to your teqniques then why can't they change their strategy. I would much quicker accept rangers getting sneak attacks against specific opponents they have been observing, say, an orc is traveling through a forest and a ranger tracks him and whent the ranger catches up the ranger has learned enough about the orc's movements to break past the orc's defense. However, I were to guess I would say that with the new ways shapechangers seem to change you wouldn't be able to take the shapechanger as a favored enemy but it could turn into forms that are your favored enemy. However, shapechangers I think are immune to critical hits so they are immune to a ranger's damage increase.(except the ones with definable anatomies like wear-creatures which you should take favored enemy animal to fight their animal and half breed forms I think)
20102000 12-25-03, 12:26 PM	If you allow FE , then you should allow FE vs shapechangers. mercurywyrm is right about the situations where you can get the FE bonus. The FE bonus is supposed to represent the rangers study and tactics vs the creature. Surely you can study creatures that change shape as much as you can study elves. Also if you allow a FE bonus against Giants, just because of their size, why not allow FE vs small creatures, flying creature or swiming creatures.