Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stardust 05-25-07, 09:13 PM	I got my copy of Dungeonscape a couple weeks ago, but only recently have I had the time to be able to start to read through it properly. The first thing that really struck me (aside from the awesomeness of catapult traps) was the Factotum base class. This looks like something that's pretty much impossible to judge when looking at it on paper. It seems that it performs its intended job - emulating one class per encounter - with decent success, although with pretty limited spells and no sneak attack progression that I can see beyond the granted 1d6. The high level ability to emulate class features looks pretty powerful, but again that's blowing half your resources for a given encounter straight off. I'm sure the Factotum has had plenty of playtesting, but given that I'm not in a position to do the same thing - and wont have the opportunity to play one in the near future - I'm wondering if anybody who has actually played the class for at least a few levels can tell me about their experiences with it? Please let me stress again that I'm looking for actual experiencial accounts, rather than anybody going on a rant about how broken/overpowered/underpowered given features are when read out of the book. Any insights much appreciated.
Particle_Man 05-27-07, 01:37 AM	For the record, the sneak attack is only limited by the inspiration points you spend (unlike the int bonus to damage ability, which explicitly does not stack with itself and so could only be effectively used once per attack). Theoretically a 20th level Factotum could spend 10 inspiration points on one attack to get 10d6 sneak attack on that attack if it hits. There are probably better things to do with those inspiration points, but it's an option.
Stardust 05-27-07, 04:44 AM	Where does it say that you can increase the sneak attack dice with inspiration points? It doesn't say you can spend inspiration points to gain 1d6 per point spent. It says you can spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1d6 sneak attack damage. Further, note the wording: You must spend the inspiration point to activate this ability before making the attack roll. The point. Singular, not plural. And from the sample character: Alerach can spend 1 inspiration point to make a sneak attack that deals 1d6 damage Not one or more, not inspirations points. Just the one. There's nothing in the text that indicates more than one point can be spent to increase the SA dice. For you to decide that it can must count as a house rule. The text definitely leans to suggesting that just one point can be spent, given that it never uses the plural and specifically states that 1 point can be spent on the ability, granting 1d6 sneak attack.
Will_DM_for_Pizza 05-27-07, 05:54 AM	I've sent my girlfriend's brother on a quick dungeon run with his Factotem (He seems to like the class) and for the most part it seems pretty well balanced with what it does. Although don't let the player get away with saying "Well it doesn't say I can't save up the insperation points every battle, so why can't I?" Her brother tried that one on me and I told him flat out that it's use them or lose them.
Stardust 05-27-07, 06:00 AM	I've sent my girlfriend's brother on a quick dungeon run with his Factotem (He seems to like the class) and for the most part it seems pretty well balanced with what it does. That's good to hear. What level was this, out of interest? Although don't let the player get away with saying "Well it doesn't say I can't save up the insperation points every battle, so why can't I?" Her brother tried that one on me and I told him flat out that it's use them or lose them. Heh, my players (or myself) wouldn't even try this and as a DM it wouldn't even be a discussion. Thanks for the reply :)
Will_DM_for_Pizza 05-27-07, 06:22 AM	It was really low levels and quite frankly at those levels factotums do well with attacks with thier insperation points.
Ecureuil_Diabolique 05-27-07, 11:06 AM	My DM let me retrain my 3rd level rogue as a factotum. I made it to level 5, then when I went to try and find some information on something, I was attacked my smugglers and killed. The Factotum is a fun class, but the only way I could deal good enough damage to really count in a group of like 6-8 I had to use a wand of magic missile with a caster level of like 9 I think. I might have been simply that I didn't get used to it enough and made a poorly built character.
Elzaban the Ethereal 05-27-07, 11:18 AM	I really liked playing this class as a lead in to other things. It's got some nifty abilities, and Brains over Brawn is very winsome (especially with the Tactile Trapsearcher feat to make Search and Disable Device Dex-based skills). It's also nice to have another class that's power is per encounter, although I frequently burned up most of my inspiration for my first attack. But I found that, while later abilities seemed intersting, my character was more interested in combat, and I found that after 4 levels of Factotum, I had a great lead-in for Warblade. Combining the two gives you lots of per encounter power, lots of Intelligence synergy, and if you take Able Learner as a Factotum, the hit to skill points as a warblade is fairly minor. And the Factotum makes up for the Warblade's lack of ranged martial weapons. But even without multiclassing, the factotum was very fun to play.
Particle_Man 05-27-07, 12:58 PM	Where does it say that you can increase the sneak attack dice with inspiration points? It doesn't say you can spend inspiration points to gain 1d6 per point spent. It says you can spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1d6 sneak attack damage. There's nothing in the text that indicates more than one point can be spent to increase the SA dice. That's easy. It is not a standard or swift or immediate or move or full-round action to spend inspiration points to increase sneak attack damage. Thus there is nothing to prevent one from doing it more than once per attack. I just activate the same ability multiple times, spending the inspiration point for it each time (so it isn't free), before the attack roll, "pumping it up" as it were, and praying that I don't miss on the attack. Note that otherwise, unless your int bonus is VERY low, there is little to no reason to ever spend a point on giving 1d6 sneak attack damage when you could spend that point to increase damage by your int bonus, and in a way that the creature won't be immune to (if you suddently find out that the victim has heavy fortification on his armor, for example, or that your opponent is undead, your sneak attack goes bye-bye, but the int bonus does not). Also, note that under the int bonus to damage part, they make a big deal about it being a "named" bonus, so that it does not stack with itself. They don't make any such big deal in the sneak attack part. If the rules said "you can only spend one inspiration point on cunning strike per attack" then I would agree with you, but they don't. Nothing in the text saying "you can spend one inspriation point to get a 1d6 sneak attack" implies that you are only allowed to do this once per attack. I just say "I use Cunning Strike 10 times" before making the attack roll, as nothing says you can't use Cunning Strike multiple times. Finally, a Factotum who uses *any* of their precious inspiration points for sneak attack, whether once or multiple times, is probably wasting inspiration points that could be put to better use elsewhere.
FponkDamn 05-27-07, 05:19 PM	Hey there! I've been playing a Factotum in a weekly campaign for some time now, and I'm up to level 9 (from 1). As a reference, I'm a human, and we played with a base-10 stat build and 24 points to spend (with 16s and up costing 2 points per). It's been a blast. The Factotum class really gets to shine as a problem-solver. Between combat encounters, you're a skill-monkey, plain and simple. But you get to be good at it - the ability to add Int to Dex- and Str- based skills means you only have to put a few ranks (if even any) into Balance, Jump, Swim, etc. to be great at them; thus, more ranks are open for anything you want to have (yay for every class skill!). In combat, you get to play any number of roles. I found that using special combat maneuvers like tripping work really well (especially with that Int bonus to the opposed roll) and the ability to heal yourself or add a quick boost to your armor class is very helpful. I generally refrain from adding to my damage, since the team's warrior will handle that - I just set him up with good flanking bonuses, a prone opponent, or a disarmed one. Which is another point - these guys are team players. Every team benefits from having one - because just a little of each character's burden is lifted. Assume a standard party (like we have) - a Knight, a Cleric, a Sorcerer, and a Rogue. Plus me. Now, there are two people searching for traps - much safer. We don't need a wand of cure in case the Cleric drops - I'm on it. The Knight gets a tanglefoot bag on him? Go ahead, spend that full-round to get it off, I'll handle it - as long as it's just that one round! Some tips: Keep yourself versatile. I have Power Attack, Point-Blank Shot, Combat Expertise, and Two-Weapon Fighting. The second-level wizard spell Heroics is your best friend; it gives you any fighter feat for ten minutes per level, as long as you meet the prerequisites. With the feats I have, that spell can give me almost any feat, keeping me able to adapt to situations, while my teammates can further specialize, knowing that they always have backup. Mobility is your friend. Not the feat, but the quality of movement. No matter what your role, you have a different spot in a battlefield where you want to be. If your role switches round-to-round, you will want to move round-to-round as well. An average battle for me tends to alternate between rounds of action and rounds of movement and spellcasting or preparing. Have ranks in tumble. Options, options, options! I have a mighty composite longbow, a changeling spear, a spiked gauntlet, a net and a whip. I can adapt as the battle needs. If you have two weapons, and you want to give them energy damage, make it sonic and acid, or any two different ones. Bone up on the rules for Bull Rush, Disarm, and other special combat maneuvers (some of which use strength or dex checks, meaning you get your Int bonus to them). Be ready for anything, and don't worry if you're not the big damage-dealer. You didn't take this class to be one. Believe me, it's a lot of fun. While I'm hardly the big guns of the party, I have successfully opened a stone chest that the Knight wasn't strong enough to, ran through a spinning tube full of mechanical spike traps, and Grappled and Pinned a Huge monstrous spider. These are rare events (and require every last Inspiration point) but the fact that you can occasionally get these hero moments makes it really worth it. As for other classes, I had also considered Warblade, as adding a few hit points and some sweet new combat options would be very helpful (options!), so that's in the works. It might well be my next level. Overall, it's a very refreshing option for someone who likes the jack-of-all-trades or Indy Jones-style hero, but is tired of the same Bard and Rogue you've always played, or never quite made work. I'm Human, but Dwarf also seems like it would have been a fine choice; the extra hit points, the stonecunning, and the spell resistance would probably be well worth the feat, but the movement hurts a bit, though there are ways around that. I do love skill points, though. This has gotten pretty long, but I hope it's been helpful. If there's anything else I can help with, let me know anytime! Johnny P.S. One of the Sage Advice questions recently was about the ability to use Inspiration Points for sneak attack. The answer is - yes, you can spend as many points per attack as you want (and have) to get that many d6 of sneak attack damage.
Linklegacy77 05-27-07, 07:19 PM	Where does it say that you can increase the sneak attack dice with inspiration points? It doesn't say you can spend inspiration points to gain 1d6 per point spent. It says you can spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1d6 sneak attack damage. There's nothing in the text that indicates more than one point can be spent to increase the SA dice. See ask wizards. I believe this question was answered, and they said you can use it multiple times. Not that you'd ever want to. I've played a factotum, and to be honest, it struck me as a little over the top for what it is supposed to do. It's better at skills than the rogue! You only need one good stat (Int), and the rest is just icing on the cake.
glacialcat 05-27-07, 07:27 PM	See ask wizards. I believe this question was answered, and they said you can use it multiple times. Not that you'd ever want to. I've played a factotum, and to be honest, it struck me as a little over the top for what it is supposed to do. It's better at skills than the rogue! You only need one good stat (Int), and the rest is just icing on the cake. That's kinda... the point though isn't it? To be the class thats really good with skills? That's like being mad that the barbarian can do more damage in melee than the Fighter.
Stardust 05-27-07, 09:52 PM	*lots of stuff* That's awesome, thanks for the detailed reply! It sounds like they did a pretty good job of balancing this class whilst making it a lot of fun. Now I *really* want to play one... A couple questions if you're willing: Which spells did you find the most useful to prepare on a regular basis? Also, did the party Rogue ever feel overshadowed by your ability to do nearly anything he/she could? One thing I noticed, by the way... the ability to add Int to Dex- and Str- based skills means you only have to put a few ranks (if even any) into Balance, Jump, Swim, etc. to be great at them; thus, more ranks are open for anything you want to have (yay for every class skill!). I did notice that you can only use this ability on skills in which you have at least 1 rank, by the way. But it does seem like a great ability nonetheless...
Particle_Man 05-27-07, 09:54 PM	Here's the link to FAQ that shows that the Factotum can in fact spend multiple inspiration points to get multiple sneak attack dice on one attack. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070412a
Stardust 05-27-07, 09:54 PM	*explanation, backed up by askwizards* Ah, fair enough. Apologies if I came across as a bit confrontational, by the way. I'm definitely not stressed and spending time on the WoTC boards instead of revising for the exam coming up in 6 hours or anything... Your explanation makes sense, it just seemed that the book didn't seem to be phrased that way. No matter!
glacialcat 05-27-07, 10:11 PM	I did notice that you can only use this ability on skills in which you have at least 1 rank, by the way. But it does seem like a great ability nonetheless... ? My copy of Dungeonscape certainly doesn't say that. The exact wording of Brains Over Brawn is "At 3rd level, you gain your Intelligence Bonus as a modifier on Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on Strength or Dexterity, such as Hide, Climb, and Jump." Doesn't say anything about needing to have a rank in them. Something like Tumble, which you need to have a rank to use at all, of course would require you to have one rank to benefit from it. But if you can use the skill at all you benefit from Brains Over Brawn. You must be thinking Cunning Knowledge, which requires you to have 1 rank in them. But they're different. Cunning Knowledge lets you spend 1 inspiration point to add your Class level to a skill, once per skill per day. He was talking about Brains Over Brawn, which automatically adds your INT modifier to any DEX or STR skill, without any use of inspiration, and with or without a rank.
Stardust 05-27-07, 10:15 PM	? My copy of Dungeonscape certainly doesn't say that. The exact wording of Brains Over Brawn is "At 3rd level, you gain your Intelligence Bonus as a modifier on Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on Strength or Dexterity, such as Hide, Climb, and Jump." Once again, foiled by complete lack of sleep. I was referring to the 'Cunning Knowledge' feature. But that's adding your class level to a particular skill. Yes, Brains over Brawn is totally different :S I'll shut up and go do something else now...
Particle_Man 05-28-07, 12:29 AM	I'm surprised that of all the skills that Factotum can get bonuses with, there is no love for the Speak Language skills. I mean, surely among all those "Cunning" powers there must be something for the "Linguist." :P
Stardust 05-28-07, 12:42 AM	I'm surprised that of all the skills that Factotum can get bonuses with, there is no love for the Speak Language skills. I mean, surely among all those "Cunning" powers there musts be something for the "Linguist." :P Cunning Linguist (Su) A factotum's familiarity with people from all different walks of life has made him exceptionally good with his tongue. Starting at 5th level, a factotum can spend 2 inspiration points to emulate a language which he has previously heard spoken for 1 minute/level. This ability works only once per day for a given language and functions in all ways like the tongues spell. The factotum's oral skill does not stop here, however. If employing his Cunning Linguist ability to interact with a female character of the humanoid, monstrous humanoid or giant base type, the factotum can apply his intelligence bonus to diplomacy checks made to improve the character's attitude. The benefits to oral skill with females provided by Cunning Linguist are a supernatural, mind-affecting ability.
taski 05-28-07, 02:20 AM	The factotum's oral skill does not stop here, however. If employing his Cunning Linguist ability to interact with a female character of the humanoid, monstrous humanoid or giant base type, the factotum can apply his intelligence bonus to diplomacy checks made to improve the character's attitude. The benefits to oral skill with females provided by Cunning Linguist are a supernatural, mind-affecting ability. Why only females? Surely males can appreciate a lady factotum's exceptional oral skill. ;)
glacialcat 05-28-07, 02:24 AM	Why only females? Surely males can appreciate a lady factotum's exceptional oral skill. ;) I don't see a problem with male and female factotums affecting males this way. ;)
Stardust 05-28-07, 02:40 AM	Why only females? Surely males can appreciate a lady factotum's exceptional oral skill. ;) Well the reason I made it females was due to the name. Obviously 'Cunning Linguist' sounds very similar to 'Cunnulingus' which is specifically the practice of performing oral sex on the female genitalia. I suppose we could give warlocks 'Fell Oratio' as an invocation that allows them to make very persuasive oral performances geared towards men?
Warforged Goblin 05-28-07, 07:31 AM	No no no, Fell Oratio is all well and good, but you can only use it on yourself if your Dexterity is high enough. My suggestion is take the Master Debater feat, it's far better when... [Damnit, I can't not make this dirty...] ...alone in the dungeon.
Stardust 05-28-07, 09:18 AM	No no no, Fell Oratio is all well and good, but you can only use it on yourself if your Dexterity is high enough. My suggestion is take the Master Debater feat, it's far better when... [Damnit, I can't not make this dirty...] ...alone in the dungeon. Hmm, I can find the bard feat 'Mass Debater' from Complete Innuendo, which gives bonuses on Perform (Oral) in public, but I can't find your version, how odd.
Deper 05-28-07, 12:16 PM	In before the move to the Mature Boards. :rolleyes:
Argaud 05-28-07, 12:57 PM	Although don't let the player get away with saying "Well it doesn't say I can't save up the insperation points every battle, so why can't I?" Her brother tried that one on me and I told him flat out that it's use them or lose them. You can't save inspiration points. This is clarified in the latest FAQ (page 16) along with the question about using more than one inspiration point for sneak attack (you can do it).
FponkDamn 05-31-07, 12:38 AM	Spells that are useful to prepare (since you asked): Level 0 - I found that Detect Poison, Detect Magic, or Resistance are the best. Level 1 - Enlarge Person. Oh man, how useful this is. If you're playing the warrior, it helps you step up, but even if you never need to, the fighter types won't complain that you have it. Even if you end up in the "party face" role, being 12 feet tall can often help in... "diplomatic" relations. As a general rule, try to avoid direct damage spells - you won't have the feats or class abilities to make them all that good. Instead, go for spells that boost or beef - and Expeditious Retreat never hurt. Level 2 - This is the money level. Heroics (spell compendium) is the one spell that never, ever leaves my prepared list. When I need to play the archer role, I have Point Blank Shot and Far Shot (or Precise, or Rapid...). When we get swarmed by goblins, suddenly I have Cleave. When we face off against skilled fighters, I become amazing at Disarming (or Tripping). It's just a great degree of customization. Be warned, though! You can only cast it once per day, so know that you need it. At least the duration is decent; you'll likely have the granted feat for at least two battles. This level also contains the stat-improving spells (which are all great, just pick which ones you'll most likely need) and lesser Celerity (spell compendium) which has saved my life at least once. Swift Fly is also great - a fly speed of 60' for one round as a swift action has come into play many times for me. Level 3 - Haste. :) You probably won't need above level 3 spells, since the ideal level of Factotum seems to be 8, then going into a PrC. By that level you have 5 inspiration points, a +6/+1 BA, 3rd level spells, and the best ability they get - the ability to take an extra standard action during their turn for 3 points. Anyway, there are some other good third-level spells, but the same general rules apply. Beefing spells over damage, options over single-application spells, and speed/mobility. Have fun! - Johnny
Stardust 05-31-07, 02:19 AM	*lots of helpful stuff* Thanks! Appreciate you taking the time to go through all that. Just too damn bad that I probably wont get chance to play one for ages. Might just have to throw in a funky Factotum NPC to keep the rest of the party guessing. None of the other players have Dungeonscape, so I'm pretty sure they don't know what a one is. Will have to have them come across him in a dungeon and have fun whilst they try to figure out just what class the crazy know-it-all is. :) Then I can always keep the build to use in a game sometime ^_^
Steely_Dan 05-31-07, 07:51 AM	Is the Factotum in the web enhancement, or is it only available in the actual book?
Deper 05-31-07, 05:34 PM	Is the Factotum in the web enhancement, or is it only available in the actual book? The actual book.
ORC_Tuhteth 05-31-07, 08:07 PM	Hooooo-kay, yeah, this needs to close due to turning just a tad off-topic and mature. Sorry, guys. :)