Post/Author/DateTime	Post
T_Baggins 10-24-07, 07:21 PM	I just started playing these online games and found out what "tanking" is. And that people actually like doing it. My friend who plays eq is gonna play one full boat. Fight defensively, sacrifice all damage for defense. I'm a little worried. This really changes combat. Wanted to hear peoples stories about them because PH2 has been out for a while. The knights challenge most of all
HCL 10-24-07, 07:36 PM	"tanking" assumes enemies will attack you. In video games this tends to be simplified by a "taunt" function on melee classes. In D&D it isnt that simple as it is an rpg and your opponents are not preprogrammed sprites, and it is the DMs discression on who they will attack. Non-intelligent beings will probably attack whatever gets in the way (so you just need to get in the way), but when you are fighting battles against mind flayers, goblin rogues, etc. you would generally need to switch to a more offensive tactic as they should recognize the d8- classes as easy targets for direct attacks and fight accordingly.
T_Baggins 10-24-07, 07:43 PM	"tanking" assumes enemies will attack you. In video games this tends to be simplified by a "taunt" function on melee classes. In D&D it isnt that simple as it is an rpg and your opponents are not preprogrammed sprites, and it is the DMs discression on who they will attack. Non-intelligent beings will probably attack whatever gets in the way (so you just need to get in the way), but when you are fighting battles against mind flayers, goblin rogues, etc. you would generally need to switch to a more offensive tactic as they should recognize the d8- classes as easy targets for direct attacks and fight accordingly. No thats my point. They DO have this ability. Its one of the functions of knights challenge. As a swift action, all the powerful enemies around the knight have to make a will save or attack the knight. Its a long ability so look it up sometime. Crazy stuff. Very powerful if you can talk someone into playing it
Drinkie 10-24-07, 08:40 PM	I've looked it over a few times. I think it's a pretty good class, and it would probably benefit a party almost as much as having a healer would. They get some pretty cool stuff, especially Bulwark of Defense and Vigilant Defender. The conduct code they have is much easier to interpret than a paladin's and offers just a much, if not more, role playing opportunity. Mainly though, this class is the class for plugging up a gap. Pretty much, enemies cannot go by a knight without taking multiple turns and attacks of opportunity. All that said, it's kinda hard to find someone who wants to play the class. Maybe you can tempt the hard core diplomacy players into by giving them diplomacy as class skill--I think it should be there anyway. :rolleyes:
turalisj 10-24-07, 08:55 PM	Two knights-> KEK K= knight E= enemy As the enemy goes through the knights to get to the fleshy wizard, the gets cut to ribbons. Or have a trio of knights with one knight making the challenge, the other two infront and either side of him. The baddy runs through and gets mowed down like charging infantry during WW1. :D
runestar 10-24-07, 09:50 PM	I always wondered what it would be like to have 2 knights standing apart, then alternate the use of their test of mettle ability, so the enemies keep running between the 2...:P
Sinfire Titan 10-24-07, 10:10 PM	I've looked it over a few times. I think it's a pretty good class, and it would probably benefit a party almost as much as having a healer would. They get some pretty cool stuff, especially Bulwark of Defense and Vigilant Defender. The conduct code they have is much easier to interpret than a paladin's and offers just a much, if not more, role playing opportunity. Mainly though, this class is the class for plugging up a gap. Pretty much, enemies cannot go by a knight without taking multiple turns and attacks of opportunity. All that said, it's kinda hard to find someone who wants to play the class. Maybe you can tempt the hard core diplomacy players into by giving them diplomacy as class skill--I think it should be there anyway. :rolleyes: Martial Study for any White Raven maneuver, FTW.
T_Baggins 10-25-07, 09:13 AM	Martial Study for any White Raven maneuver, FTW. What maneuver? You still have to abide by the prerequisite for it. I like where you are going with this but what did you have in mind.? I imagine a knight with a spike chain and an animated shield. Some of the knight abilities are based on what you threaten, and this doubles your zone.
Drinkie 10-25-07, 12:36 PM	Meh, I wouldn't take the spiked chain, you'd have to spend an exotic weapon proficiency feat. Much better to just take Short Haft and go with polearms.
El_Shawno 10-25-07, 12:37 PM	Mainly though, this class is the class for plugging up a gap. Pretty much, enemies cannot go by a knight without taking multiple turns and attacks of opportunity. All that said, it's kinda hard to find someone who wants to play the class. Maybe you can tempt the hard core diplomacy players into by giving them diplomacy as class skill--I think it should be there anyway. :rolleyes: Y'know, this got me thinking. I've seen some on this board suggest taking 2 levles of Marshall and then going into Paladin. I'm wondering if this would work well with a Knight, instead. I'm beginning to think it might - at least in certain instances. You could simultaneously buff and 'cork' (is that the correct term?) with a fair degree of effectiveness. I think this'd work well if you've a fighter or barbarian in the group to act as the primary damage dealer, thus letting you be the primary defender. And now that I'm thinking a little (just a little), a few levels of Dragon Shaman might mix well with a Knight, too. Just switch on your Fast Healing aura, challenge the toughest opponent you encounter, and trade blows for a few rounds.
StruckingFuggle 10-25-07, 01:11 PM	Meh, I wouldn't take the spiked chain, you'd have to spend an exotic weapon proficiency feat. Much better to just take Short Haft and go with polearms. ...what? "This weapon sucks because you have to spend a feat on it, so spend a feat on this other weapon"? Are you familiar with the old robot phrase 'does not compute'? :P
T_Baggins 10-25-07, 01:53 PM	Meh, I wouldn't take the spiked chain, you'd have to spend an exotic weapon proficiency feat. Much better to just take Short Haft and go with polearms. This is the exact line of thought that lead me to spiked chain. Short haft lets you threaten EITHER adjacent or 2 squares away, but not both. Spiked chain does both And as far as multi classing, the "taunt" ability DC is 10 + one half knight level + cha mod. So if you only dip into knight it will not be as effective at high levels. It is a really powerful class but it takes a special mindset to do it. Like the people who play warriors and paladins in a certain super popular mmorg.
Sinfire Titan 10-25-07, 02:58 PM	What maneuver? You still have to abide by the prerequisite for it. I like where you are going with this but what did you have in mind.? I imagine a knight with a spike chain and an animated shield. Some of the knight abilities are based on what you threaten, and this doubles your zone. Any of them! The point is, Martial study for any WR maneuver gives you Diplomacy as a class skill from then on.
shokvalue 10-25-07, 06:06 PM	My friend played an aasimarian knight tank - pretty natty he was too, with +1 full plate and a keen falchion. Knight challenge and tanking is risky. He challenged our bbeg. She was a sorceror. He got a lightning bolt. He was on -16. Very, very funny.
Drinkie 10-25-07, 08:49 PM	...what? "This weapon sucks because you have to spend a feat on it, so spend a feat on this other weapon"? Are you familiar with the old robot phrase 'does not compute'? :P Difference being, Short Haft works with ALL polearms. Whereas the feat to use a spiked chain is ONLY for the spiked chain. To me, I'd rather have the ability to use any ol' polearm I find, than be limited to having to find a spiked chain. If your DM is one of those that picks loot randomly, you'd pretty much be asking to get screwed on loot. :raincloud @TBaggins: Given, yes you do have to choose which you're threatening, but it's a swift action to swap between them.
T_Baggins 10-25-07, 09:02 PM	Difference being, Short Haft works with ALL polearms. Whereas the feat to use a spiked chain is ONLY for the spiked chain. To me, I'd rather have the ability to use any ol' polearm I find, than be limited to having to find a spiked chain. If your DM is one of those that picks loot randomly, you'd pretty much be asking to get screwed on loot. :raincloud @TBaggins: Given, yes you do have to choose which you're threatening, but it's a swift action to swap between them. Good point, but the knights challenge is a swift action, so those are going to be at a premium. And while being able to switch between them is good, having them both at the same time is better. Putting yourself in a position where your opponent has to suck up multiple attacks of opportunity to get past you is pretty much what a "tank" is shooting for
T_Baggins 11-06-07, 11:10 PM	Actually what I'm really aiming for is in-game experiences with the knight. All these posts are good insight, but what I want is, did anyone play one or with one?
turalisj 11-07-07, 07:07 PM	I've convinced a friend to play a knight in a Battle of Thermopoly style battle (the movie 300 for those with no education), where he has a platoon of the king's best knights and must hold out against a horde of goblins (ok, so it's also OoTS latest battle scene, but bleh). I'll let you know how things go.
JosephofOrb 11-07-07, 07:31 PM	I run a game from 1-13 that has its last session Friday. The PC's are knight, rogue, warmage, cleric, bard. One of the players is a pure knight. He has a ton of HP and a strong AC. His saves seem good, since knight gets a good will and he pumped con for HP, so his fort is solid. No reflex, but with a lot of HP its not much of an issue. He took the shield feats (spec and ward) for a high touch AC as well. The best (or worst headache for me) ability is the one that makes all terrain around them rough terrain. Smart movement keeps them safe from full attacks from medium creatures. It also eats up an enemies movement if he positions himself between a foe and ally. The taunt they have should be carefully read. In my experience, the taunt is great at low levels but fairly useless at high levels. Anything worth it is immune (there is an INT requirement attached, does not work on undead or constructs, etc) or has the saves to make it. Also, the taunt breaks as soon as the foe takes damage from any other source. He has to be sure to act just before the foes to make it work. It also only works on foes within two levels below the knight, which means in mass situations, he can't bring a whole crowd on him. However, with a pack of close level, low will save mobs, he can hold damage from multiple foes if the party is careful to focus on one foe at a time. Also, its a nice follow up to AoE, if he needs to protect the warmage. I'd say its highly situational. Far more powerful are their other defensive abilities.
T_Baggins 11-08-07, 10:47 AM	I run a game from 1-13 that has its last session Friday. The PC's are knight, rogue, warmage, cleric, bard. One of the players is a pure knight. He has a ton of HP and a strong AC. His saves seem good, since knight gets a good will and he pumped con for HP, so his fort is solid. No reflex, but with a lot of HP its not much of an issue. He took the shield feats (spec and ward) for a high touch AC as well. The best (or worst headache for me) ability is the one that makes all terrain around them rough terrain. Smart movement keeps them safe from full attacks from medium creatures. It also eats up an enemies movement if he positions himself between a foe and ally. The taunt they have should be carefully read. In my experience, the taunt is great at low levels but fairly useless at high levels. Anything worth it is immune (there is an INT requirement attached, does not work on undead or constructs, etc) or has the saves to make it. Also, the taunt breaks as soon as the foe takes damage from any other source. He has to be sure to act just before the foes to make it work. It also only works on foes within two levels below the knight, which means in mass situations, he can't bring a whole crowd on him. However, with a pack of close level, low will save mobs, he can hold damage from multiple foes if the party is careful to focus on one foe at a time. Also, its a nice follow up to AoE, if he needs to protect the warmage. I'd say its highly situational. Far more powerful are their other defensive abilities. Thanks. Play testing of the taunt is really what I want to know. I kinda figured the knight wouldnt be able to draw everything. I was looking at the will saves for the stuff they would be fighting. Looked like 50-50, 40-60. Good enough to really change the tactics of the fight.
Belkar 11-08-07, 03:44 PM	I played a Knight, from lvl 3-16 about a year ago. Yeah, Test of Mettle isn't all its cracked up to be, at higher levels. At low, levels, though... it's niiiiiice. We had a DM who liked to throw tons of fodder at us instead of one or two big threats (war campaign)... and when that happened, it was gold. I too, took all of the shield feats in the PHBII. Coupled with Combat Expertise, and all gold spent on enhancing armor and shield (heh... I had a simple masterwork sword until 11th level), my AC was astronomical by mid-levels. And even if you could hit me... I was a freakin' meat wall. A agree with the last poster - the ability I got the most use out of was Bulwark of Defense. Difficult Terrain that only affects your enemies, and moves with you... "Oh... sorry, you can't take a 5' step away from me! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!". It stops charges, 5' steps, and makes you an amazing battlefield controller. That, coupled with the Shield Ally abilites the class grants... man... The casters just hid behind me and cussed at things... it was kinda cool. ;) Mechanically, you get supa-boss HD, full BAB, decent skills, and good Will saves (something fighters rarely get). Which was great, because the enemy wizard always tries to lay down the mental mojo on the big, dumb fighter. It was fun to smile my way through save after save. Lack of good Fort was a pain, but my second best ability score (after Cha) was Con. So it wasn't too bad. Plus, you eventually get to move 30' in full plate. Can't beat that. :D
Daeva 11-08-07, 04:21 PM	FYI if an enemy is "taunted" by the knight, he doesn't have to attack the knight if it means he gets hit by an AOO. so with a reach weapon and taunting a melee only mob without reach, it does nothing because oh the only way to get to you is getting AOOd and since it can opt not to, he just goes and attacks someone else.
Killydd 11-08-07, 04:58 PM	I'm currently playing a Knight, but its at low levels(haven't been able to use test of mettle yet) and the ability scores given by the GM are insane. However, combining the Bulwark of Defense with a polearm and Combat Reflexes has so far proven to be golden. forcing most enemies to take a move action (and no charging since it is difficult terrain they start in) before they attack anything slows down the ones with natural weapons(and iterative attacks eventually). However, after looking through things again, I'm probably going to find a prestige class to take in a few levels since I just don't think the higher level abilities(until you get to 20) are as nice as they sound on the first read.
Mandarbgrim 11-09-07, 03:58 PM	Also, the taunt breaks as soon as the foe takes damage from any other source. He has to be sure to act just before the foes to make it work. I never noticed that. I even enticed someone in a horror game to play one and didn't have it break if someone else attacked them. Of course, most of the people that it effected were being ignored from that point forward, but not a big deal. He did really well at drawing fire from a couple squads of low level archers and a bunch of common soldiers. AC was 25 to 30 <lvl 5ish with little control over equipment.> before the player decided that he didn't like doing such "pitiful" damage.
STAT 11-09-07, 06:22 PM	I have a Knight as my cohort in the campaign I'm in right now. That test of mettle can be a dicey proposition if you don't watch yourself. I used it drawing all the enemies on the field and got hammered by the BBEG. Of course my Knight was 2 levels below the rest of the party and with only okay equipment. Still, it's probably best to watch out you don't draw too many badguys and then get killed.
T_Baggins 11-09-07, 06:29 PM	I never noticed that. I even enticed someone in a horror game to play one and didn't have it break if someone else attacked them. Of course, most of the people that it effected were being ignored from that point forward, but not a big deal. He did really well at drawing fire from a couple squads of low level archers and a bunch of common soldiers. AC was 25 to 30 <lvl 5ish with little control over equipment.> before the player decided that he didn't like doing such "pitiful" damage. The taunt is broken if someone else attacks them. As far as the pitiful damage goes thats the mentality I was talking about earlier. Millions of people play this in online games. Its not for everyone. There is a reason why the servers are stuffed with rogues and hunters and everyones crying for priests, warriors, and paladins.
krayt_dragon 11-25-07, 02:44 AM	I'm currently playing a knight in Shattered Gates of Slaughterguard. She's 6th level, and I love her. Also a shield monster, with Improved Bash, Shield Specialization, and Agile Shield Fighter (and a heavy steel shield with bashing). I find that Test of Mettle rarely has much game effect, but her other abilities (Bulwark of Defense in particular) frequently save the day. I don't have problems with dealing out damage, as with the shield bash I generally hammer foes for 3d8+12 a round, which suits me just fine.